The Embodiment of Control vs. One Determined Kid (Makima vs. Frisk) (2-7-0) (GRACE)

[GunshyFever]

If we’re involving The Player in this, if Makima prevents The Player from controlling Frisk, then The Player will either nuke the entire cosmology on a 2-B scale or use RESET to turn back time to an earlier point before Makima’s Conquest.

Yes, I know Makima can remember the RESETs (she probably couldn’t, since Pochita’s EE and The Player going to a different timeline are two completely different things), but then it would lead to The Player constantly resetting the timeline and Makima Conquesting Frisk over and over again. This would just lead to the situation I described earlier where The Player just nukes Makima and calls it a day

Once again, I disagree though only to an extent. If the player uses RESET, they create an entirely new timeline, if they instead reload a save, they are simply reverting to a moment before their fight with Makima. As I’ve said, Makima’s control is passive, the only thing it needs in order to work is her own judgment of another being. Because Makima already remembers that Frisk is in her eyes inferior, thanks to their previous encounter, Conquest will still take hold. The sole difference is that Makima will now be both aware of it and intrigued by Frisk. I also don’t believe that slipping into a different timeline via RELOAD or RESET changes anything about recalling something that was erased. Functionally the two actions are the same.

Erasing something from existence causing events not to exist (practically creating a new timeline due to changed timeline of events) = Reloading a save or reseting something to the very beginning (practically creating a new timeline of events because of the new choices you'll make).

Same thing.
I still think Makima is technically the victor here, because she will constantly have anotumy of Frisk and force the Player on her terms or have no power over the character (similar to Chara). If the player nukes the game by deleting it, Makima wins, anything else, Makima is still winning.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I disagree to an extent. "Mind control" or "conquest" is just the name of the ability, what Makima is actually doing is taking control of Frisk's body. For example, if the player tries to use the game controls to move, they wouldn't work as usual. Instead, Makima would be moving the character around herself.

So its makimas control vs the players...she isn't winning this

This has happened several times in Undertale where the character moves without the player's consent, like with Chara,

Chara exists as a part of the player which is why this works

although I can't recall all the instances off the top of my head. But Essentially the player loses autonomy over their character. They can't control them anymore.

You'd have to prove her control is comparable to charas

As I mentioned before, it doesn’t really matter if they can break free from the control temporarily, because Makima can just fling them right back under it.

hence incon since they break free again

She has full control over their body when she considers frisk inferior, she could simply say something like "down" and force them into a contract.

One thing i'd like to mention is that the player controling frisk comes from the soul and them controlling the body is just an aftereffect from that.

with that in mind makima would have to not only control frisks soul but her control would have to overpower 1-2 4D characters...

It’s something Frisk, or the player, can’t escape from without facing the promise of infinite death, over and over again.

Again this is why the match ends in an incon

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Also how is makima even aware of reset??? last I checked her awareness feats are from remembering conceptual erasure

Also if her remembering somehow becomes a problem the player just uses tr and erases her memory on the next reset

 

[GunshyFever]

So its makimas control vs the players...she isn't winning this

It's not Makima’s control vs the players control, its just Makima’s control. The player does not have a choice.

Chara exists as a part of the player which is why this works

You'd have to prove her control is comparable to charas

I just used Chara as a reference so you can understand the scenarios. Makima is obviously not like Chara but as I've extensively explained before hand she that is able to do something of the sort.

hence incon since they break free again

One thing i'd like to mention is that the player controling frisk comes from the soul and them controlling the body is just an aftereffect from that.

with that in mind makima would have to not only control frisks soul but her control would have to overpower 1-2 4D characters...


Again this is why the match ends in an incon

Most of this doesn't actually address my stance directly, it's just based on assumptions. You'd need to prove most of these claims, but instead, you've oversimplified the argument in an attempt to respond to my points. I don't find this worth responding to and I tentatively disagree.

Also how is makima even aware of reset??? last I checked her awareness feats are from remembering conceptual erasure

Also if her remembering somehow becomes a problem the player just uses tr and erases her memory on the next reset

This was explained earlier in the thread. Please take the time to sit down and read through it from the beginning so you're aware of the general context and what's going on, because it seems like you're not keeping up.

Or just stick with your prior stance, because your arguments are failing to make me change my mind.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

It's not Makima’s control vs the players control, its just Makima’s control. The player does not have a choice.

The player is also controling frisk and therefore makimas control would have to get pass there control

how is makimas control getting passed 4D control

I just used Chara as a reference so you can understand the scenarios. Makima is obviously not like Chara but as I've extensively explained before hand she that is able to do something of the sort.

If its not on charas level then her control would be at a significantly lesser scale which would mean it shouldn't work on frisk to begin with

Most of this doesn't actually address my stance directly, it's just based on assumptions. You'd need to prove most of these claims, but instead, you've oversimplified the argument in an attempt to respond to my points. I don't find this worth responding to and I tentatively disagree.

You're argument from what I'm seeing assumes makimas control can cancel out the players control

i'm asking what feats suggests makimas control can overpower the control of a 4D character

This was explained earlier in the thread. Please take the time to sit down and read through it from the beginning so you're aware of the general context and what's going on, because it seems like you're not keeping up.

I did and it doesn't address the counter arg which is that chara or the player would overpower it since both are 4D characters and makimas control has never effected 4D characters. There is no "makima can control their body" since both of them do that as well

Or just stick with your prior stance, because your arguments are failing to make me change my mind.

Makimas mind control can't magically overpower control from a 4D character and therefore wouldn't effect frisk, my prior stance didn't take that into consideration which is why I switched.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Pretty sure dimensionality doesn't matter to hax anymore

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Pretty sure dimensionality doesn't matter to hax anymore

When was that made a thing on the wiki?

 

[Epiccheev]

Pretty sure dimensionality doesn't matter to hax anymore

....uh?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Game Sonic hax downgrade/adjustment

So metaphysical aspects (mind, soul, info, concept, etc) were clarified that they cant be higher dimensional smurf potency unless it was 1-A. I'm just proposing Sonic downgrades to match this, which has frequent usage of this. Here's what I found on Modern Sonic's profile where the...

vsbattles.com

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Game Sonic hax downgrade/adjustment

So metaphysical aspects (mind, soul, info, concept, etc) were clarified that they cant be higher dimensional smurf potency unless it was 1-A. I'm just proposing Sonic downgrades to match this, which has frequent usage of this. Here's what I found on Modern Sonic's profile where the...

vsbattles.com

Ignoring the fact that this specifically applies to more metaphysical abilities this crit talks moreso about scaling by not strictly assuming an ability is specifically restricted to a specific dimension.

for example if goku had 7D EE and got buffed or nerfed one would not be able to say gokus ee is strictly limited to 7D and cannot possibly scale higher.rather you'd have to say something along the lines of "this ability has been shown to effect 7D so it can be assumed to be at least 7D"

The issue here is that the player has hde so makima actually needs evidence for 4D mind hax in order to even effect them let alone actually overpower their control over frisks body

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

That's still a range issue instead of like, the Player having stronger Mind hax or whatever

 

[Delusionaltx2]

That's still a range issue instead of like, the Player having stronger Mind hax or whatever

Range wouldn't them here if anything it effects makima since she's the one effecting something 4D

 

[Epiccheev]

Yeah, seems like a mismatch

 

[StrymULTRA]

Once again, I disagree though only to an extent. If the player uses RESET, they create an entirely new timeline, if they instead reload a save, they are simply reverting to a moment before their fight with Makima. As I’ve said, Makima’s control is passive, the only thing it needs in order to work is her own judgment of another being. Because Makima already remembers that Frisk is in her eyes inferior, thanks to their previous encounter, Conquest will still take hold. The sole difference is that Makima will now be both aware of it and intrigued by Frisk. I also don’t believe that slipping into a different timeline via RELOAD or RESET changes anything about recalling something that was erased. Functionally the two actions are the same.

No. Here both LOADs and RESETs make new timelines.

 

[GunshyFever]

No. Here both LOADs and RESETs make new timelines.

If something is erased, it creates a new timeline of events contrary to the original. It's essentially the same thing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If something is erased, it creates a new timeline of events contrary to the original. It's essentially the same thing.

I am not here to debate you.

In the cosmology blog it's literally accepted that LOADs make up new timelines while "stopping" the old one just like RESETs do.

Edit: The thing of the "new timeline is just the new version of the current one" has been addressed here, btw.

 

[GunshyFever]

I am not here to debate you.

In the cosmology blog it's literally accepted that LOADs make up new timelines while "stopping" the old one just like RESETs do.

Edit: The thing of the "new timeline is just the new version of the current one" has been addressed here, btw.

I never denied this.

 

[EnderLord8]

If this isn't mismatch/stomp, I'll vote for Frisk

 

[Delusionaltx2]

If this isn't mismatch/stomp, I'll vote for Frisk

Frisk wins but this isn't a total stomp

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

k. will tally all the votes now. I was following the arguments and such to see if I made a mismatch.
Let's see how this goes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I never denied this.

You implied that only RESETs make up new timelines, when here is accepted that SAVEs also do.

If the player uses RESET, they create an entirely new timeline, if they instead reload a save, they are simply reverting to a moment before their fight with Makima.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Strym, while i'm here, are you voting for frisk as well or nah?

 

[GunshyFever]

You implied that only RESETs make up new timelines, when here is accepted that SAVEs also do.

I did, yes. But that was not what I was arguing moments ago. I'm specifically talking about existence erasure.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Makima FRA

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

understandable, your vote is getting added

 

[Delusionaltx2]

voting frisk here (realize I forgot to vote)

makimas win con doesn't work and the rest of her stuff can be dodged fairly easily

on the other hand ut soul hax would bypass the regen and allow frisk to one shot with the ap gap

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

voting frisk here (realize I forgot to vote)

makimas win con doesn't work and the rest of her stuff can be dodged fairly easily

on the other hand ut soul hax would bypass the regen and allow frisk to one shot with the ap gap

Adding your vote but gonna talk on your below points
Makima Win con seems debatable (Even if I don't think it is) but I agree that Frisk speed blitzes.
Frisk can't attack the soul so Makima would Regen from most stuff. But, again, Frisk oneshots and can pulverize her into dust

 

[StrymULTRA]

other hand ut soul hax would bypass the regen and allow frisk to one shot with the ap gap

Soul hax is something only monsters have as only magic users do, Frisk is a human so they don't have it.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Adding your vote but gonna talk on your below points
Makima Win con seems debatable (Even if I don't think it is) but I agree that Frisk speed blitzes.

Makimas wincon relies on her control effecting and overpowering the player and potentially chara

I'm pretty sure I explained this but hde makes this basically impossible cause makima doesn't have 4D hax

Nobody on makimas side has responded to this the one guy that tried just said he wasn't gonna entertain it and I should just stick on my previous stance (incon)

Frisk can't attack the soul so Makima would Regen from most stuff.

Forgot about that tbh (they don't use magic)

But, again, Frisk oneshots and can pulverize her into dust

yeah although pulverizing her won't be easy

Still votting frisk here

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Y

Soul hax is something only monsters have as only magic users do, Frisk is a human so they don't have it.

yeah i forgot mb

frisk still wins tho

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

makimas win con doesn't work and the rest of her stuff can be dodged fairly easily

Not sure how her pointing at Frisk/just looking at them and then them exploding is really dodgeable.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Frisk FRA

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

excellent. Vote added

 

[Naito-desu]

So remind me what Frisk's wincon is here?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

So remind me what Frisk's wincon is here?

Keep slashing Makina till she's fully liquid Ig

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

You are filled with the power of STOMPING

FRA

 

[EnderLord8]

One thing I noticed is that at the speed they're going, if resurrection was instantaneous and Frisk kept killing Makima for 13 minutes, she would have her resurrection exhausted by the entire Japanese population dying in the meantime.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

One thing I noticed is that at the speed they're going, if resurrection was instantaneous and Frisk kept killing Makima for 13 minutes, she would have her resurrection exhausted by the entire Japanese population dying in the meantime.

Doubtful. She has millions of lives, i doubt they'd be exhasuted that fast, as we saw with her fight against pochita

 

[GunshyFever]

I just wanted to point out that Frisk actually has no in character feat of slashing an entire human body into a pool of blood. I find the reasoning behind Team Frisk's arguments unreasonable, and it generally feels like a FRA train without much thought. Those I've agreed with who have brought up decent points, have decided to treat the match as a mismatch, while the ones voting for Frisk are doing so for completely unrelated reasons, which should ultimately make this match a stomp.

I voted for Makima because I believe Conquest gives her leeway around load and save mechanics, along with complete control over Frisk’s body once she initially defeats them through her bio point or stare. Meanwhile, Frisk’s one win con is very slim and actually takes time to achieve, something Makima’s regeneration would actively resist.

Team Frisk's arguments assume that Conquest doesn’t matter despite its effect on the timeline. That in itself makes the matchup a stomp because it's assumed Makima has no win cons due to her supposedly being unable to bypass Frisk’s type 8 immortality. I don’t see why those votes should be counted or carry any weight.

 

[Catbowtie]

Knew Gushy was going to say something goated when I saw him looking at this thread.

I don’t know why people are making this match out to be simply cut and dry. Makima’s entire laundry list of abilities and controlled devils pretty much make it impossible for Frisk to find Makima and kill her, but on the other hand, Frisk is genuinely psychotic enough to sit for hundreds of deaths trying to find a way to kill someone.

Both sides Stomp each other completely and 100% of the time. Either Makima Conquests Frisk or The Player nukes Makima