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Elden Ring General Discussion

Thiag125 said:
So individually the nightfarers are all weaker than the tarnished right?
Click to expand...
Maybe. So in a hypothetical let's say the following:
  • Heolstor = Marika = Radagon (post-fusion) = Elden Beast
With that you can make the following claims:
  • In that case the Tarnished defeats his 4-A, in the worst case scenario, with themselves + a maxed out spirit ash. So they defeated Radagon/Elden Beast with one other person
  • Against Heolstor it's implied that all the Nightfarers are working together to stop him and the other Nightlords. Meaning that 8 people (depending on if you think the party limit is a gameplay limitation or not) are used to fight him. At the end it would be those eight people working together to defeat Heolstor
  • Individually it would imply that a singular Nightfarers is weaker than the Tarnished Warrior
But the gap between >1/2th and >1/8th by itself isn't insurmountable, but the larger tool kit the Tarnished has would also put them over any Individually Nightfarer imo.
 
A larger toolkit and summons out the ass since only having one Ash Spirit at a time is a gameplay mechanic not supported by the lore as seen with Rennala who uses multiple Ash Spirit summons back to back almost.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
A larger toolkit and summons out the ass since only having one Ash Spirit at a time is a gameplay mechanic not supported by the lore as seen with Rennala who uses multiple Ash Spirit summons back to back almost.
Click to expand...
If the Tarnished's summons work like Rennala then aren't they still limited to only using one at a time? The only difference I'd see is that you can get Mimic Tear shenanigans or swap between +10 people quickly.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
If the Tarnished's summons work like Rennala then aren't they still limited to only using one at a time? The only difference I'd see is that you can get Mimic Tear shenanigans or swap between +10 people quickly.
Click to expand...
I more so meant that the "I can only summon once per fight" limitation is gameplay mechanics, not that they can have a literal army of summons all at once.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
I more so meant that the "I can only summon once per fight" limitation is gameplay mechanics, not that they can have a literal army of summons all at once.
Click to expand...
I understand you now. Yeah I'd imagine that other than the Mimic Tear since that seems tied to you physically, the Tarnished would be able to swap out his summons when needed.
 
Thiag125 said:
So individually the nightfarers are all weaker than the tarnished right?
Click to expand...
Kind of? They don't have as many hax and abilities as the Tarnished, but they share most of what's important, and even have a few things of their own. Like the Tarnished isn't taking a Raider punch or an Onslaught Stake to the face without getting ****** up.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Maybe. So in a hypothetical let's say the following:
  • Heolstor = Marika = Radagon (post-fusion) = Elden Beast
With that you can make the following claims:
  • In that case the Tarnished defeats his 4-A, in the worst case scenario, with themselves + a maxed out spirit ash. So they defeated Radagon/Elden Beast with one other person
  • Against Heolstor it's implied that all the Nightfarers are working together to stop him and the other Nightlords. Meaning that 8 people (depending on if you think the party limit is a gameplay limitation or not) are used to fight him. At the end it would be those eight people working together to defeat Heolstor
  • Individually it would imply that a singular Nightfarers is weaker than the Tarnished Warrior
But the gap between >1/2th and >1/8th by itself isn't insurmountable, but the larger tool kit the Tarnished has would also put them over any Individually Nightfarer imo.
Click to expand...
I think in lore it is more implied that it is only expiditions of three, and just that all the Nightfarers are fighting at once. Like, while a few of them are out on one expidition, the others are recuperating. Its like how in the beginning of the game cutscene we only ever see 3 of them together at once.

There are also seemingly examples of individual Nightfarers accomplishing things, particularly against Heolstor. Like for each of the endings, a set nightfarer makes an individual decision, such as Wylder choosing to become the new Nightlord, or Ironeye killing the corpse we see.

I'm not saying its a wash for the Nightfarers, but they are represented as being superior in many aspects (mostly individual ones when it comes to their abilities and kit), while lacking in other areas.
 
Chritin said:
Kind of? They don't have as many hax and abilities as the Tarnished, but they share most of what's important, and even have a few things of their own. Like the Tarnished isn't taking a Raider punch or an Onslaught Stake to the face without getting ****** up.
Click to expand...
They're probably a lot slower too tho. The nightfarers are all relative to each other and Iron Eye's big move is just a supersonic arrow, whereas late game tarnished can parry and dodge light speed Radahn
 
Unrelated do you think that Radahn and Miquella would be able to defeat Heolstor?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Unrelated do you think that Radahn and Miquella would be able to defeat Heolstor?
Click to expand...
Not sure personally. The duo is spectaculary powerful but by the time we face them, they've been True Gods for seconds so they perhaps don't have true mastery over their divine power. Of course, Miquella is a master incantation and light user but he already was and it's likely his moves are just powered-up versions of stuff he could already do as a demigod.

Meanwhile Heolstor might not be as much as an expert swordman as Radahn but the power he wields is nightmarishly devastating. His set of abilities is really versatile even without accessing the power of other Nightlords and he has literally reality-reshaping powers with the whole cutting-the-sky move. Also, notice how when he casts spells, he does it with no gestures or motions, meaning he essentially casts spells passively, something even Miquella can't do. And of course, there's the summon the other NL's arenas to channel their element and control them.

It wouldn't be an easy fight but to me, Heolstor wins.
 
Thiag125 said:
They're probably a lot slower too tho. The nightfarers are all relative to each other and Iron Eye's big move is just a supersonic arrow, whereas late game tarnished can parry and dodge light speed Radahn
Click to expand...
If we take that as gospel for an anti feat, then the entire verse would be supersonic. There are already supersonic arrows that can hit the Tarnished in the base game yet they are MHS+
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Unrelated do you think that Radahn and Miquella would be able to defeat Heolstor?
Click to expand...
So this is honestly tricky. Personally, i might give it to Miquella, but only because I don't think Heolstor has any way of dealing with global (possibly universal) mind and empathic hax (which I need to actually apply to Miquella's profile at some point tbh)
 
Chritin said:
If we take that as gospel for an anti feat, then the entire verse would be supersonic. There are already supersonic arrows that can hit the Tarnished in the base game yet they are MHS+
Click to expand...
It's not like the tarnished starts off that fast, PCR is meant to be an extreme late game boss. Early game tarnished is definitely still threatened by arrows and whatnot
 
Chritin said:
So this is honestly tricky. Personally, i might give it to Miquella, but only because I don't think Heolstor has any way of dealing with global (possibly universal) mind and empathic hax (which I need to actually apply to Miquella's profile at some point tbh)
Click to expand...
Does Heolstor even has a "mind" as we understand it now anyway? Even if he has some form of awareness, I believe he's so far gone and inhuman that the charm wouldn't work that great and even then, his Night control might counter this if powerful enough
 
IAmNotBread said:
Would we say Heolstor is stronger than Elden Beast? Executors remembrance says the erdtree is no more, and i feel like the Elden Beast wouldve tried to do something if that happened
Click to expand...
he should be by default honestly the man contains a rune that should by all accounts equal the elden ring (since it destroy'd the erd tree and what not) and since that is whats powering him he should be stronger than the elden beast who is weakened and at least equal to the fully restored elden beast.
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
Does Heolstor even has a "mind" as we understand it now anyway? Even if he has some form of awareness, I believe he's so far gone and inhuman that the charm wouldn't work that great and even then, his Night control might counter this if powerful enough
Click to expand...
Miquella's mind hax are implied to work on literally everything within the Lands Between. That includes anything that may be aware, but not necessarily human in their understanding of the world.
 
Chritin said:
Miquella's mind hax are implied to work on literally everything within the Lands Between. That includes anything that may be aware, but not necessarily human in their understanding of the world.
Click to expand...
Well I did say human because it's heavily implied Heolstor was human once. Neverthless, we don't know if it could have worked on entities like the Elden Beast or Marika and Heolstor is closer to them than demigods for example
 
Current crackpot theory but I have a suspicion that Caligo is Placidusax’s former goddess
 
Chritin said:
Current crackpot theory but I have a suspicion that Caligo is Placidusax’s former goddess
Click to expand...
In my head canon, I view Caligo as an early drake that came from Bayle. We know from the prehistoric line in the bosses menu:
A prehistoric dragon which lurks within fog. The great shadowy pair of eyes, framed in frigid mist, are said to appear at history's great junctures. Its coldness can readily purloin the living warmth of its victims.
Click to expand...
That she's probably from the era of the Ancient Dragons, which makes her pretty old. However she's hiding herself on a mountain peak pre-Nightreign:
From the phantasmal peak upon which she hid herself, she peered down into the world, committing to memory what she perceived.

Then, her eye drawn to a certain cataclysm, from out of hiding she leapt with wings unfurled.

For she wished to know and to understand, first hand, just what fortunes and misfortunes the disaster would bring upon the world.
Click to expand...
Why would she be hiding? Because the Fire Giants when they claimed power drove off the Frost Drakes:
Borealis's Mist: The ice dragons were once lords of the mountaintops long ago,
until they were defeated by the Fire Giants and chased from the
peak.
Click to expand...
Plus Caligo doesn't use lightning incantations like other "pure" Ancient Dragons, but that would be more in-line with various Drakes.

So in my view is Bayle is the first of the Drake line, then Caligo is the first of the Frost Dragons.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
In my head canon, I view Caligo as an early drake that came from Bayle. We know from the prehistoric line in the bosses menu:

That she's probably from the era of the Ancient Dragons, which makes her pretty old. However she's hiding herself on a mountain peak pre-Nightreign:

Why would she be hiding? Because the Fire Giants when they claimed power drove off the Frost Drakes:

Plus Caligo doesn't use lightning incantations like other "pure" Ancient Dragons, but that would be more in-line with various Drakes.

So in my view is Bayle is the first of the Drake line, then Caligo is the first of the Frost Dragons.
Click to expand...
To be fair, some of the Drakes have been shown using lightning too.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
In my head canon, I view Caligo as an early drake that came from Bayle. We know from the prehistoric line in the bosses menu:

That she's probably from the era of the Ancient Dragons, which makes her pretty old. However she's hiding herself on a mountain peak pre-Nightreign:

Why would she be hiding? Because the Fire Giants when they claimed power drove off the Frost Drakes:
Click to expand...
I think I'd be more inclined to believe that if there wasn't a very specific design distinction between the drakes and ancient dragons, that being that drakes have Wyvern like wings while the ancient dragons have 2 pairs of traditional wings. To me, her design is much more similar to other ancient dragons instead of drakes, and even other ice dragons we see like Borealis.

There's also the fact she's so ancient to the point where she's considered prehistoric. She has lived on her peak longer than anyone has remembered, while the existence of the drakes is pretty recent and something most people would likely know and understand.

Qawsedf234 said:
Plus Caligo doesn't use lightning incantations like other "pure" Ancient Dragons, but that would be more in-line with various Drakes.

So in my view is Bayle is the first of the Drake line, then Caligo is the first of the Frost Dragons.
Click to expand...
That is a bit of a contentious point, especially since you have Adel who is more akin to other drakes but is also versed in using lightning. Personally, if I could add more fuel to this crackpot theory, even though I don't think she's inherently a drake, I wouldn't be surprised if she's similar in the sense that she adapts to whatever environment she's in.

All I'll say is that whatever she is, she's weird. I personally think she's the dragon goddess because she's an expressly feminine dragon with an ancient dragon type design who has been secluded and basically missing since the dawn of recorded history.
 
Sir_sun_man said:
he should be by default honestly the man contains a rune that should by all accounts equal the elden ring (since it destroy'd the erd tree and what not) and since that is whats powering him he should be stronger than the elden beast who is weakened and at least equal to the fully restored elden beast.
Click to expand...
Yeah i agree with Heolstor being stronger than Elden Beast

actually speaking of Gods, i wonder how Miquella and Consort Radahn compare to Marika/Radagon.
 
Chritin said:
There's also the fact she's so ancient to the point where she's considered prehistoric
Click to expand...
All of the Ancient Dragons are prehistoric as a note
The ancient dragons, who ruled in the prehistoric era before the Erdtree, would protect their lord as a wall of living rock.
And so it is that the shape of the dragon has become symbolic of all manner of protections.
Click to expand...
So she's not freakishly old by Dragon standards.

Chritin said:
personally think she's the dragon goddess because she's an expressly feminine dragon with an ancient dragon type design who has been secluded and basically missing since the dawn of recorded history.
Click to expand...
I can get that.
 
IAmNotBread said:
Yeah i agree with Heolstor being stronger than Elden Beast

actually speaking of Gods, i wonder how Miquella and Consort Radahn compare to Marika/Radagon.
Click to expand...
Miquella would probably beat Marika simply becuase she doesn't have any interesting hax to her name. I'd dare to venture Radagon could be consort Radahn though due to him possessing the Elden Ring in his body at the end of the game.
 
Gonna put this out there again, since I think much of the initial interest in Nightreign has subsided, please let me know if you would like to come help make the Tarnished profile. I have 3 other people waiting, and I think we'll anywhere from 6-10 to get it done efficiently.
 
Actually, would Marika veiling/banishing the land of shadow give her an calculable feats? or sense elden rings in-game geography differs from the lore, and the fact the way she did so is very vague and not really being a use of destruction disqualify it as something that could be calculated for her attack potency/destructive potency?
 
It might be... if we actually knew how she separated them in the first places. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough info on the means for that imo, which is a shame.
 
Chritin said:
Gonna put this out there again, since I think much of the initial interest in Nightreign has subsided, please let me know if you would like to come help make the Tarnished profile. I have 3 other people waiting, and I think we'll anywhere from 6-10 to get it done efficiently.
Click to expand...
Hey, as long as we're talking about the Tarnished of No Renown's profile (yes, I insist on calling them that for clarity's sake), I should also bring up how +25 weapons apparently give minor time manipulation according to the description of Ancient Dragon Smithing Stones
 
Chritin said:
Miquella would probably beat Marika simply becuase she doesn't have any interesting hax to her name. I'd dare to venture Radagon could be consort Radahn though due to him possessing the Elden Ring in his body at the end of the game.
Click to expand...
The hax makes it muddy but in a full-blown fight, I would bet on Marika. Radahn is probably a better warrior but Marika has had eons to master her divine powers and understand them, she at least directly took part in various fights at the beginning of her reign and personally slain a diving being as the One-Eyed God. It's also noteworthy to mention that yeah, she doesn't have specific hax to her name, but her favor could only be gained by warriors of the caliber of Godfrey and Radagon so she must have been a very strong and skilled warrior. Her soreseal talisman, which boosts mental stats, also suggests that her strength lies more in divine power and spellcasting than in physical combat, meaning that she must have been a pretty nightmarish spellcaster of divine power.
 
IAmNotBread said:
Actually, would Marika veiling/banishing the land of shadow give her an calculable feats? or sense elden rings in-game geography differs from the lore, and the fact the way she did so is very vague and not really being a use of destruction disqualify it as something that could be calculated for her attack potency/destructive potency?
Click to expand...
CrackerVolley said:
It might be... if we actually knew how she separated them in the first places. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough info on the means for that imo, which is a shame.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it seems more like just hax, since the only way to reach it is by dying, corrupting your body in some way, or using someone else's corrupted body.
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
The hax makes it muddy but in a full-blown fight, I would bet on Marika. Radahn is probably a better warrior but Marika has had eons to master her divine powers and understand them, she at least directly took part in various fights at the beginning of her reign and personally slain a diving being as the One-Eyed God. It's also noteworthy to mention that yeah, she doesn't have specific hax to her name, but her favor could only be gained by warriors of the caliber of Godfrey and Radagon so she must have been a very strong and skilled warrior. Her soreseal talisman, which boosts mental stats, also suggests that her strength lies more in divine power and spellcasting than in physical combat, meaning that she must have been a pretty nightmarish spellcaster of divine power.
Click to expand...
Yeah, she's weak by no means. I just meant that she doesn't have a crazy win-con like Miquella who can insta charm most people in his god state.
 
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