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Touhou Discussion Thread 4 ⌈Fossilized Wonders Edition⌋

StrymULTRA said:
Isn't that literally a weakness? It's not like only elemental ones like in Pokémon count as such smh.
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I don’t really see it as an exploitable weakness. She definitely understands the risks tied to her own ability - and it’s not like anyone else can interfere and press the "make these gods angry" button.

What’s interesting is that it suggests she can channel power from two gods at once, which risks them clashing. But since we don’t really know which gods get along and which don’t, it’s mostly moot. And she has, what, eight known gods she can summon?
 
Wonder_of_Fantasy said:
I don’t really see it as an exploitable weakness. She definitely understands the risks tied to her own ability - and it’s not like anyone else can interfere and press the "make these gods angry" button.
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I mean, being super dumb, overconfident, easily emotional are also things people don't usually have to exploit by intended efforts, as these come out by their own most of the time, yet they're weaknesses.

Mind hax dudes who cannot control good people would be listed as a weakness of theirs for obvious reasons.
 
I genuinely have a proposal.

Why don't we attempt to upgrade Touhou based on the fact that it's also got a Theory of Everything, something that needs the Universe to be at least 10 to 11-D to ever exist? .- .
 
NothingToDebateWith said:
I know, but Outside World having an established TOE (And a GUT in PC-98 times) should be more than enough for those that effect everything in the verse, i.e gods, no?
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Depends on how elaborated it is in the verse.

Plus I am not that familiar with irl TOE, does it make by default that the extra dimension is relevant in size? Otherwise the 11D is doodoo as it'd be treated as insignificant by default.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Depends on how elaborated it is in the verse.
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Hifuu CD's talk about it mostly.

And like at this point the most blatant Tier 1 qualifier is the Dream World being beyond dimensional via the Collective Unconscious statements. Doremy interacts with it, Yukari outright manipulates it with her boundaryhax. You could argue who scales on that front fairly straightforwardly.
 
Small update; The Ability Card CRT seems to be going smoothly.

I'm feeling a boost in productivity this month, so do reach out to me here or on my wall if there are plans for CRTs. I also plan on sharing a draft of the cosmology blog here before August, assuming things go well for me as far as work goes.

Speaking of August, Touhou 20 releases next month on Steam! I'll be covering much of the game as it is translated by the community. Super excited to see what ZUN has cooking. The Demo has been very enjoyable so far Nareko constantly crashing my game aside.
 
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I suppose it is a good time to discuss cosmology.

I'll also reiterate; Touhou 20 is coming out in less than a month. It seems increasibly possible for new things regarding the cosmology to be released, seeing as we are going to a new location in the game (referring to the Sanctuary and whatever is in that Pyramid)
 
Wonder_of_Fantasy said:
I suppose it is a good time to discuss cosmology.

I'll also reiterate; Touhou 20 is coming out in less than a month. It seems increasibly possible for new things regarding the cosmology to be released, seeing as we are going to a new location in the game (referring to the Sanctuary and whatever is in that Pyramid)
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It'd be funny if majority of the game ends up being inside the pyramid similar to HSoB or TCL
 
I'm sure somebody has seen this already buuuuuuuut...
ep1wceo1r58f1.png
 
Steve1775 said:
I'm talking about Reinhard Van Astrea. Pretty much that OP red hair guy from re:zero
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I do not know this character though. Like, what's their thing?

As I understand it they would need to have some pretty good hax, else the AP gap means he's getting oneshot.
 
Wonder_of_Fantasy said:
I do not know this character though. Like, what's their thing?

As I understand it they would need to have some pretty good hax, else the AP gap means he's getting oneshot.
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A pretty busted set of intuition, several blessings that just get rid of any weakness he'd have...an a type 2 concept EE slash that can cover thousands of kilometers
 
Any general to-do list besides the possible Tier 1 revision? As I get spare time & rainy days I'll be going through/revisiting recent Touhou games & side material anyway, so if you have any blind spots, I can see what I can find & give you the scans (and chapters/page numbers), Youtube timestamps, etc. Would be wise to set as much groundwork as possible before proposing anything lofty, else it turns into one of those cases where it isn't a strong enough case at first but people find evidence piecemeal only for interest and patience to wane.
 
Follow_Doctor_Freeman said:
Any general to-do list besides the possible Tier 1 revision?
Click to expand...
Some tier 1 arguments likely to be introduced with new the Cosmology blog. Much of them will have to do with how Borders/Boundaries work, as well as statements on Otherworlds. I also not think that Tier 1 through the String Theory statements are good enough to stand on their own like what Gurren Lagann has either; since that verse is more upfront with it by comparison.

There’s far stronger support for the Collective Unconscious interpretation. ZUN’s has made a direct analogy to the dreams Doremy talks about being similar to the Collective Unconscious in Jung's theories, verbatim. The only other time he’s made a similar analogy is Byakuren’s description of Youkai as manifestations of humanity’s collective imagination in SoPM. This supports the view that Youkai are symbolic entities, much like how Megaten treats demons. Less to the point, it wouldn't be the first time that ZUN has taken inspiration from Megaten.

In contrast, the Eight Million Gods originate from a kind of Monad that encompasses all potential aspects of existence. They are defined by Borders, which are themselves intrinsically tied to the Mental Layer, the same metaphysical stratum where magic and the in-universe energy system function. Scaling based on that framework should be more straightforward, though obviously not everyone is going to scale to this. The most obvious ones to benefit off the top of my head are Yukari and Doremy.

Aside from this, there are two issues that I see;
  1. Physiologies across profiles are outdated and inconsistently indexed. A sweeping revision is necessary, ideally in the form of a dedicated blog. I’d prefer contributing to such a blog myself, as it would provide an updated, centralized, and easily referenced source for discussion, especially for those less familiar with Touhou's more obscure canon works. Most of the missing content stems from non-game and non-manga material.

    For example, Symposium of Post-Mysticism explicitly compares Youkai to manifestations of collective human fear. This implies that all Youkai should qualify for Abstract Existence, as they are expressions of that fear, similar to how Gods manifest from the Eight Million through belief. The similarity is in that both Gods and Youkai rely on human belief to manifest at all; whereas Divine Spirits lose their faith and whatever the consequences of that may be.

    Additionally, we continue to group Divine Spirits and Gods that have manifested from the Eight Million together as if they are the same category, when they are fundamentally different. Mountain of Faith even talks about the difference between Native Gods and those from the Eight Million. Also, generally speaking, much of what’s missing is from ZUN’s more recent written material and databooks as well.

    I think a first step to solving this issue in particular is discussion here or the new Wiki Page Collaborations section on the forum. I would prefer the latter.
  2. The other most obvious issue is that we lack new character pages from the recent games. However, I think getting the issue above out of the way will streamline this one in a way where we can focus on character-specific things.
 
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Wonder_of_Fantasy said:
Some tier 1 arguments likely to be introduced with new the Cosmology blog. Much of them will have to do with how Borders/Boundaries work, as well as statements on Otherworlds. I also not think that Tier 1 through the String Theory statements are good enough to stand on their own like what Gurren Lagann has either; since that verse is more upfront with it by comparison.

There’s far stronger support for the Collective Unconscious interpretation. ZUN’s has made a direct analogy to the dreams Doremy talks about being similar to the Collective Unconscious in Jung's theories, verbatim. The only other time he’s made a similar analogy is Byakuren’s description of Youkai as manifestations of humanity’s collective imagination in SoPM. This supports the view that Youkai are symbolic entities, much like how Megaten treats demons. Less to the point, it wouldn't be the first time that ZUN has taken inspiration from Megaten.

In contrast, the Eight Million Gods originate from a kind of Monad that encompasses all potential aspects of existence. They are defined by Borders, which are themselves intrinsically tied to the Mental Layer, the same metaphysical stratum where magic and the in-universe energy system function. Scaling based on that framework should be more straightforward, though obviously not everyone is going to scale to this. The most obvious ones to benefit off the top of my head are Yukari and Doremy.

Aside from this, there are two issues that I see;
  1. Physiologies across profiles are outdated and inconsistently indexed. A sweeping revision is necessary, ideally in the form of a dedicated blog. I’d prefer contributing to such a blog myself, as it would provide an updated, centralized, and easily referenced source for discussion, especially for those less familiar with Touhou's more obscure canon works. Most of the missing content stems from non-game and non-manga material.

    For example, Symposium of Post-Mysticism explicitly compares Youkai to manifestations of collective human fear. This implies that all Youkai should qualify for Abstract Existence, as they are expressions of that fear, similar to how Gods manifest from the Eight Million through belief. The similarity is in that both Gods and Youkai rely on human belief to manifest at all; whereas Divine Spirits lose their faith and whatever the consequences of that may be.

    Additionally, we continue to group Divine Spirits and Gods that have manifested from the Eight Million together as if they are the same category, when they are fundamentally different. Mountain of Faith even talks about the difference between Native Gods and those from the Eight Million. Also, generally speaking, much of what’s missing is from ZUN’s more recent written material and databooks as well.

    I think a first step to solving this issue in particular is discussion here or the new Wiki Page Collaborations section on the forum. I would prefer the latter.
  2. The other most obvious issue is that we lack new character pages from the recent games. However, I think getting the issue above out of the way will streamline this one in a way where we can focus on character-specific things.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. Incidentally, I was going to propose Megami Tensei as a good reference point for explaining Touhou cosmology to others as well as a case study for us to consider how to address issues of physicality. Thinking of people unfamiliar with the verse looking from the outside in, it should be addressed how the characters (especially low tiers) scale so no one gets confused about if, say, Cirno being in Gensokyo gives her something like an Umineko City of Books manifestation stat set (sadly not).

You seem to have a good handle on things and should be the spokesperson on all this, but lemme know if there are any particular sources you need a hand finding or combing through since I think it's interesting anyway. If nothing else, I'll try to be around when you finish up that blog and post it here to see if there's anything left to address/strengthen before and as the proposal thread is made if I'm free at the time.
 
@Follow_Doctor_Freeman Megaten is a good point of reference, especially with how belief and collective thought shape reality. I’ll be sure to thread that in when drafting the blog. Thinking on it more, DeMatteis's use of the Collective Unconscious in DC might actually be a stronger analogue to how Touhou handles its metaphysics as well.
 
For those in this thread not savvy to these resources, here is a site with some text dumps. When everything is translated, one of us can make bullet points, then an outline, then more fleshed-out interpretations of what's going on here. In the meantime, here's a synopsis of what I've managed to gather so far. Don't consider this post as authoritative.

So far it looks as if the Lunarian Empire is a memetic/information-eating equivalent to the parasitic Combine Empire from Half-Life. That is, gods/yokai/etc tend to wow/frighten/inspire humanity into deference/defiance to produce faith & generally result in a healthy checks-and-balances environment (with the intervention of incident resolvers such as Reimu & Marisa) where all display & compete to be acknowledged and grow via faith production/consumption. Whereas Lunarians prefer to eschew such emotionally-charged engagements and the faith they produce in favor of impersonally translating "life information" into pure information, thanks to controlling Stage 4's very ancient goddess, Yuiman, who takes "life information" (at least primarily from the Outside World) and translates it into a form suiting the Lunarians' sterile tastes. This takes place in a pyramid (which Nareko Egyptouhou keeps sealed to protect Gensokyo) which if I'm not mistaken predates at least the Moon and Gensokyo and serves as a conduit between at least the Moon & the Outside World.

But it looks as if there has been such a spike of "life information" in the Outside World, and the pyramid operation can't purify it all. This spike is probably something tech/internet-related and not biological, as the CD dramas suggest that at least first-world countries have stagnant birthrates; the endings with Okina, Yukari, and Sanae straight-up say the AI boom caused it. I don't think this is an existential threat for the Lunar Capital so much as an aesthetic one,though depending on how you read Yukari's ending talking to Marisa, they would be vastly transformed if impure. They certainly make it a problem for Gensokyo by trying to get the "Immutable Goddess" Ariya (whom they had super-sealed) to at least freeze Gensokyo (though not every other realm) similar to the Imperishable Night incident in Touhou 8, probably a lot more to it and even doing something to the effect of flooding it with impurity from the Outside World when defeated. If this is the case, then Ariya has power over the Hakurei Barrier despite it being highly immutable itself.

And the implications of that stone alone are very very curious, seemingly recalling the feat of Erin helping the cast defeat Junko in LoLK up to a much larger scale. And Stage 4 & the Extra Stage have a lot of subjective reality stuff going on. There are details on pre-existing aspects, too, such as Reimu's Snow-Blossom Extra scenario seeming to say that the land of the dead Yuyuko resides in normally has no/stopped time. I don't think that the Lunarians' general struggle to influence/avoid influence from the Outside World is an anti-feat, either, as faith and other conceptual forces are highly potent in this verse. My recommendation is to continue to index abilities first, then piece into cosmology, repeat.

Lot more than this, but that's a basic outline. Fascinating themes. Even the AI assets people got up in arms about when the demo was released have a sort of diagetic purpose, apparently. And that new Extra Stage character, Nina, has to be one of the most tragic in the series; I guess the conspiracy angles are a bit easy but the notion of being born/revived in a state of fear and wanting to turn everything else into a subjective incubator is potent and reminded me of the melancholy of Walter Sullivan from Silent Hill 4: The Room. This game has some curious exploration of the ancient and modern, of mystery and knowing, of being elevated or degraded by information, of change and immutability... Powerscaling or no, I look forward to seeing what you all take away from this. Make sure to wait for the translations and do thorough comb-overs before doing any CRTs. This entry has piled on a lot more esotericism so make sure you accommodate others trying to grasp it & account for misconceptions.
 
Yeah it's a bit crazy. In the new game we’ve been told outright that Life Information = Kegare/Impurity, with Junko’s WOohS entry even foreshadowing this.

The consistent implication is that fairies, as manifestations of life, also spread impurity; defined in turn as life/information. In other words, fairies aren’t just manifestations of life, but also informational beings, since life itself is described in informational (type 2) terms. The same applies to youkai, based on the same source. This means that anyone who tampers with Purity/Impurity and/or Eternity is effectively wielding infohax.
 
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Wonder_of_Fantasy said:
Yeah it's a bit crazy. In the new game we’ve been told outright that Life Information = Kegare/Impurity, with Junko’s WOohS entry even foreshadowing this.

The consistent implication is that fairies, as manifestations of life, also spread impurity; defined in turn as life/information. In other words, fairies aren’t just manifestations of life, but also informational beings, since life itself is described in informational (type 2) terms. The same applies to youkai, based on the same source. This means that anyone who tampers with Purity/Impurity and/or Eternity is effectively wielding infohax.
Click to expand...
Wait does this mean that fairies have a new sort of invulnerability or smth
 
Wonder_of_Fantasy said:
Yeah it's a bit crazy. In the new game we’ve been told outright that Life Information = Kegare/Impurity, with Junko’s WOohS entry even foreshadowing this.

The consistent implication is that fairies, as manifestations of life, also spread impurity; defined in turn as life/information. In other words, fairies aren’t just manifestations of life, but also informational beings, since life itself is described in informational (type 2) terms. The same applies to youkai, based on the same source. This means that anyone who tampers with Purity/Impurity and/or Eternity is effectively wielding infohax.
Click to expand...
And if I'm reading the new game correctly that Kegare/Impurity is not only what you mention but also overlaps the Outside World's AI boom ie literal computer information, that has some very curious implications. But it makes sense, Gensokyo is essentially a fictional space, like Wonderland meets the Isle of Misfit Toys, yet not quite beneath the "real world." A never-ending but not entirely repetitive playground predicated towards constant misadventures including invigorating conflict yet not annihilation for most of its denizens.
Steve1775 said:
Wait does this mean that fairies have a new sort of invulnerability or smth
Click to expand...
Type 8 Immortality has been well-established in the series; the extra confirmation of Informational properties is more support of this as well as potentially useful context for reality-fiction distinctions & interactions in the series' cosmology.
 
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