High School DxD Downgrade: Tier 2

[Firestorm808]

Can someone summarize why the individual realms in a single "world" such as Draconic Deus (DxD) are separate space-times and not several 3-D spaces on the same time axis?

3-A: Universe level​

Characters or objects that can create or destroy all celestial bodies within a finite 3-D space at least equivalent in size to the observable universe via an omnidirectional explosion that covers the entire space, alternately create or significantly affect a 3-D universe or a pocket dimension of comparable size, which does not involve the destruction and/or creation of space-time.

High 3-A: High Universe level​

Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D space. This extends to an infinite number of finite or infinite-sized 3-D universes or pocket dimensions when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time. Large numbers of infinite 3-D universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Can someone summarize why the individual realms in a single "world" such as Draconic Deus (DxD) are separate space-times and not several 3-D spaces on the same time axis?

Nothing so far but I will try to summarize their arguments:

• Claim without evidence
• The Dimensional Gap, a Dimensional Wall located in every part of the world
• Different flow of time in the said dimensions

But we have this

So their bicycles made it all the way to Heaven huh…. In other words, they managed to break into Heaven like that!? It was only supposed to be me and Asia today, so how did we end up with two bicycles arriving in Heaven!? It was just so ludicrous that Xenovia and Mil-tan had managed to arrive in Heaven on bicycles! The park had become a launching ground for those attempting to infiltrate Heaven!

“Bicycles are amazing, Ise-san! They’re such special vehicles that they can even reach Heaven!”

 

[Digital_Franz]

But also, Underworld has a ‘fake’ moon in the same a sense as Naruto or Dragon Ball have fake moons, in that they were artificially created by others.

Oh. Well, I hope it's that because in Naruto at least it was shown how it was created, so for sure we know that it is not just a simple light source comparable to a large torch. It isn't really relevant to this thread, I just mentioned it so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

Is this serious? How long are you going to continue with this nonsense? The human world and the mythological realms are separate space-times, they are not part of the same universe. That's been seen from the beginning, now you're just making up nonsense just to try to make DxD look weak. Stop making this stuff up and wasting time. If you don't like DxD, just admit it and stop this nonsense.

Dear friend, thank you for this honest post. Now what about the evidence?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

The human world and the mythological realms are separate space-times, they are not part of the same universe.

So, what do you think Draconic Deus is, exactly? It makes zero sense for the mythological realms to be in different universes.

They are separate dimensions in the ‘same place’, and apparently, having a different flow of time is not enough qualify.

 

[Firestorm808]

Does time manipulation in the human realm have influence in the other mythological realms?

IE: If DIO does a Time Stop on Earth. Is heaven affected by the Time Stop?

 

[Dragongod224]

Does time manipulation in the human realm have influence in the other mythological realms?

IE: If DIO does a Time Stop on Earth. Is heaven affected by the Time Stop?

No, human world time and mythological world times manipulation is not affecting other realms

 

[Firestorm808]

No, human world time and mythological world times manipulation is not affecting other realms

Do we have an example to work with?

 

[Dragongod224]

Do we have an example to work with?

Maous manipulation the time flow of the Underworld to match the human world but it is do not affect the human world

 

[Firestorm808]

Maous manipulation the time flow of the Underworld to match the human world but it is do not affect the human world

The kind of time manipulation I'm looking for are either time stops or time travel effects.

Time slows or speed ups are relative.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

The kind of time manipulation I'm looking for are either time stops or time travel effects.

Time slows or speed ups are relative.

Time stop, no. But in the first place, the only time stops we have seen are localized to an area of kilometers, at best.

What do you mean by time travel effects, exactly? Because using time travel to kill Issei as a baby in the human world, for example, should obviously have an impact on current events in the Underworld and such, as he would cease to exist and not be involved with the devils as a result.

 

[Dragongod224]

Time stop, no. But in the first place, the only time stops we have seen are localized to an area of kilometers, at best.

What do you mean by time travel effects, exactly? Because using time travel to kill Issei as a baby in the human world, for example, should obviously have an impact on current events in the Underworld and such, as he would cease to exist and not be involved with the devils as a result.

Yah it's also affect other parallel worlds or universe (ExE or FxF) since evil gods of other world attacking dxd

 

[Dragongod224]

One more thing is that current accepting rating is this
In conclusion, the mythological dimensions are at least 4-A, possibly Low 2-C.

Note: The definition of "Underworld" varies between the planet and dimension and should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis by context when used for scaling.


By this each dimension has their own sun and moon and stary sky with day and night circle and own different flow of time due to this give 4-A and possible low 2-C

Also they are never stated to be pocket dimension or realities unlike reverse Kyoto and dimension lost's dimension's

So issei current rating in apocalypse answer arm will 4-A to low 2-C possibly 2-C (21 universe ) being available to destroy entire dxd

 

[Digital_Franz]

The kind of time manipulation I'm looking for are either time stops or time travel effects.

Time slows or speed ups are relative.

Currently any effect on time will affect all realms (the whole world).
There is also this Aeon who can bombard through space-time, being able to bombard events in the past (which includes mythologies and the human world) so ultimately these dimensions share the same time.

 

[Dragongod224]

Currently any effect on time will affect all realms (the whole world).

Obviously it will affect other space time (mythological worlds)since they are form form alliance with each other they share informations so if human time will affected then otherwise time will be also affected by proxy of informations and connections like like human who will reincarnated in Angel and demons will never be Angel and demons it's been affect them as well

There is also this Aeon who can bombard through space-time, being able to bombard events in the past (which includes mythologies and the human world) so ultimately these dimensions share the same time.

So you saying 2 space time continue can be destroyed at the same time

 

[Digital_Franz]

Obviously it will affect other space time (mythological worlds)since they are form form alliance with each other they share informations so if human time will affected then otherwise time will be also affected by proxy of informations and connections like like human who will reincarnated in Angel and demons will never be Angel and demons it's been affect them as well

It's obvious because they aren't separate space-time continuums.

So you saying 2 space time continue can be destroyed at the same time

Nah. One space-time continuum isn't even destroyed in that scan, and my point is that they aren't separate space-time continuums since the same past contains the histories of humanity and mythologies.

 

[Dragongod224]

It's obvious because they aren't separate space-time continuums.

Nah. One space-time continuum isn't even destroyed in that scan, and my point is that they aren't separate space-time continuums since the same past contains the histories of humanity and mythologies.

Read this in wiki page

In the absence of contradictory evidence, timelines are assumed to share the same time axis i.e. the same dimension of time. Note that sharing the same temporal axis does not mean that they would be connected in any way, as it only means that their time flows in the same direction. It's like how two people can both move in the same direction without their paths ever meeting, as long as they started in different places.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Do you realize the nonsense you're spouting?
I suppose the planet Earth in DxD must be enormous enough to host a sun beneath its surface, and the atmosphere must be very thick to accommodate an immeasurable space where there are who knows how many human souls.
What's next? Is the Dimensional Gap outer space? Are the Evies aliens from another planet?
I guess I can take a shovel and dig down to the underworld and I guess all that stuff they did in volume 18 to get into heaven was completely unnecessary since they could have just flown there.
Understand how absurd this sounds? That's what they're proposing.

This whole complaint stems from an event that occurred in a short story that is directly pointed out as absurd: Xenovia's bike was created by Azazel and runs on demonic power, and Mil-tan's was built by Heaven.

Heaven is a single world, divided into 7 sections, so it is possible to physically travel between them. But traveling from the human world to Heaven requires special means; if physical travel were possible, humans could enter using rockets.

The Dimensional Gap isn't a physical wall; it's literally an infinite void that's described many times as beyond dimensions, where the laws of physics don't apply, time doesn't exist, an can have phenomena like being infinitely close and infinitely far from something, and it's said time and time again that it separates each plane of existence.

How are they going to be one universe with this thing separating the worlds, It's absurd how this whole discussion.

Draconic Deus is the set comprised of the Human World and the Mythological Realms that exist within the Dimensional Gap.
It's basically the same as Bleach, a Multiverse contained within a larger space. The other worlds like FxF and ExE are worlds apart from DxD.

But I know that all this is going to fall on deaf ears. They have been incapable of understanding this from the beginning and will continue to be so.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Read this in wiki page

In the absence of contradictory evidence, timelines are assumed to share the same time axis i.e. the same dimension of time. Note that sharing the same temporal axis does not mean that they would be connected in any way, as it only means that their time flows in the same direction. It's like how two people can both move in the same direction without their paths ever meeting, as long as they started in different places.

Of course I know about this. As I said, a space-time continuum wasn't even destroyed in the scan. Furthermore, by targeting the past of one timeline, it's impossible to target the past of another timeline, since although they share the same time axis, they aren't connected. But here it's seen that it can target the past of all these dimensions at the same time.

I suppose the planet Earth in DxD must be enormous enough to host a sun beneath its surface, and the atmosphere must be very thick to accommodate an immeasurable space where there are who knows how many human souls.

I don't know who said the sun would be in the Earth and a dimension in the atmosphere but it's actually peak.

What's next? Is the Dimensional Gap outer space? Are the Evies aliens from another planet?

From another country.

I guess I can take a shovel and dig down to the underworld and I guess all that stuff they did in volume 18 to get into heaven was completely unnecessary since they could have just flown there.

You can just open your door and you will already be in the Underworld.

Understand how absurd this sounds? That's what they're proposing.

Cough~

This whole complaint stems from an event that occurred in a short story that is directly pointed out as absurd: Xenovia's bike was created by Azazel and runs on demonic power, and Mil-tan's was built by Heaven.

Yeah made by Azazel and Heaven and use special energy but what then? Only spaceflight.

Heaven is a single world, divided into 7 sections, so it is possible to physically travel between them.

This is true that Heaven is a single world divided into 7 but a certain someone doesn't think so.

But traveling from the human world to Heaven requires special means; if physical travel were possible, humans could enter using rockets.

Get their faster rockets above MHS first and then help them survive a long time in outer space.

The Dimensional Gap isn't a physical wall; it's literally an infinite void

The inside is a void.

that's described many times as beyond dimensions, where the laws of physics don't apply, time doesn't exist, an can have phenomena like being infinitely close and infinitely far from something, and it's said time and time again that it separates each plane of existence.

These anime translations just don't work. Replace these statements with those from the novel.

How are they going to be one universe with this thing separating the worlds, It's absurd how this whole discussion.

In fiction there are cases where a wall or some non-physical analog separates two realms. However, while such a barrier might serve to separate the realms within the cosmology of said fiction, note that the spaces are not necessarily separate universes by our standards. That is because, while the wall may make it difficult in practice, one could in theory still move from one realm to the other with just regular three dimensional movement. That means that the realms are still part of one common three dimensional space, which by our standards constitutes only one universe.

Draconic Deus is the set comprised of the Human World and the Mythological Realms that exist within the Dimensional Gap.

And all that is just a world.

It's basically the same as Bleach, a Multiverse contained within a larger space.

OK~

The other worlds like FxF and ExE are worlds apart from DxD.

No one said otherwise~

But I know that all this is going to fall on deaf ears. They have been incapable of understanding this from the beginning and will continue to be so.

 

[Dragongod224]

This is true that Heaven is a single world divided into 7 but a certain someone doesn't think so.

Look like certain someone don't read the previous ratings

Use this
A shockwave that crosses the Heavens
A dragon makes its fireball travel between the Heavens
A dragon moves between the Heavens

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

The Dimensional Gap isn't a physical wall; it's literally an infinite void that's described many times as beyond dimensions, where the laws of physics don't apply, time doesn't exist, an can have phenomena like being infinitely close and infinitely far from something, and it's said time and time again that it separates each plane of existence.

How are they going to be one universe with this thing separating the worlds, It's absurd how this whole discussion.

I assume when they refer to how the Dimensional Gap seperates each "Plane of Existence" or "Dimensions" that would apply to the Underworld and Heaven, correct? I guess either way, even if it doesn't, it's still enough proof that the Mythological Worlds are their own universes, and they aren't all condensed to the same world.

After all, it does mention "A dimensional wall existed between the human realm, the underworld, and Heaven, a boundary that separates each plane from the next." then that would be enough proof that they are in fact separated and not part of the same universe since the Dimensional Gap does as the name implies and seperates dimensions.

 

[BlackeJan]

Quit your crying honestly. If u can’t be nice then go somewhere else and let others do the talking

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I guess I can take a shovel and dig down to the underworld and I guess all that stuff they did in volume 18 to get into heaven was completely unnecessary since they could have just flown there.

Well of course not. Is that what OP is saying? I’m kinda losing track.

It’s not possible to enter the mythological worlds in this manner, or people wouldn’t use convoluted methods to try and breach the worlds.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Well of course not. Is that what OP is saying?

Nope.

I’m kinda losing track.

It’s not possible to enter the mythological worlds in this manner, or people wouldn’t use convoluted methods to try and breach the worlds.

Yeah.

 

[Shar122]

Bump

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

That's what they're implying, even if they don't realize it.
True, why they would need to cross a dimensional wall to reach another part of the same universe.

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

I don't think Franz is implying that you can reach these worlds by usual "human" means, that would be absurd, you still need a special mode of transportation whether that be teleportation, a magical bike, etc.

I think he's implying that because you can technically travel via these special devices which cross "distance", there's the implication that they aren't in entirely separate universes and are all part of the same one. Correct me if I'm wrong though

Now, I don't agree with this because of the Dimensional Gap's nature, as well as the statements of having their own flow of time, but I think the real thing is whether all of these have different "space-times". The focus should be less on are the worlds separated or not, because it doesn't matter if they are or aren't, if they have their own different space-times then that's just plain low 2-c.

Although i guess the next thing is, are they infinite in size because from what I've been told you can't get 4D / Low 2-C without the construct that space time applies to being infinite.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

So, what's OP proposing really?

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

So, what's OP proposing really?

You see, that's the part I'm confused by? They're trying to downgrade the 2-C rating to Low 2-C, on the notion that mythological worlds, and Heaven/Hell are all part of the same collective universe, but we have scans such as this which tell us that the dimensional gap separates these other dimensions/universes, and that the Mythological World is in fact separate from the human world and that there is a different Heaven and Hell for each religion.

There's enough proof that they aren't part of the same collective universe, I think the pressing thing right now is whether each one has its own space-time.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

. If you don't like DxD, just admit it

I don't like DxD

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

You see, that's the part I'm confused by? They're trying to downgrade the 2-C rating to Low 2-C, on the notion that mythological worlds, and Heaven/Hell are all part of the same collective universe, but we have scans such as this which tell us that the dimensional gap separates these other dimensions/universes, and that the Mythological World is in fact separate from the human world and that there is a different Heaven and Hell for each religion.

There's enough proof that they aren't part of the same collective universe, I think the pressing thing right now is whether each one has its own space-time.

I mean, it's clear they are separated spatially in some way or another, the problem I see is exactly that ^

If they all share the same time axis and are just separated by the dimensional gap then it's all just Low 2-C in it's totality. (I don't agree with that but the wiki runs with it).

Ya'll should focus on finding proof of different space-time and be done with it (I want to throw this guys at DMC for fun)

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

Ya'll should focus on finding proof of different space-time and be done with it (I want to throw this guys at DMC for fun)

Tbf I’m not a supporter, I’m kinda just here cause the thread intrigued me.

 

[Huesito88]

I want to throw this guys at DMC for fun

Do you hate DXD Tony?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

There's enough proof that they aren't part of the same collective universe

If that’s the case, ExE and FxF would not be seen as special or alien worlds, since the mythological worlds apparently qualify.

And the thing is, we don’t even know what exactly ExE and FxF is.

Draconic Deus is officially the human world + the various mythologies. Narratively, they are in the ‘same place.’ Like I said, do you think Reverse Kyoto is in another universe.

In my opinion, if having their own separate time flows is not enough.

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

Draconic Deus is officially the human world + the various mythologies. Narratively, they are in the ‘same place.’ Like I said, do you think Reverse Kyoto is in another universe.

From a powerscaling context, it doesn't matter if they are part of the 'same place', if these different realms / dimensions are universe / infinitely sized and have their own space time then it qualifies anyway, especially if each place has to be separated by what is a weird void space that lacks certain physics attributes.

 

[Dragongod224]

Like I said, do you think Reverse Kyoto is in another universe.

Nah that is just pocket dimension similar to dimension lost dimension clearly stated in novel

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Do you hate DXD Tony?

I actually like it a lot, the world building, the wacky powers, some characters.

Honestly, if Issei wasn't a thing and the horniness was toned down a couple of notches the whole thing would be far better imo

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

On the subject of time, it's a bit complicated.
Know that the Underworld has its own flow of time, as in the past it differed from the human world by an unknown amount, but for the convenience of reincarnated demons, the Demon Kings synchronized it with the human world.
Know that in the Dimensional Gap that separates the worlds, time does not exist.

But then there is the issue of timelines, know that the worlds of DxD, ExE and FxF are part of the same timeline, that means that each timeline having its own DxD World must also have its own Dimensional Gap.

When Masque and others were working on the cosmology page, this was a matter of confusion. How could a realm without time be affected by changes in the timeline?

Masque had the idea that the Dimensional Gap was larger than we thought and that it contained not only the planes of existence of DxD, but also the timelines.

But it created a problem since in the anime timeline, Issei and Rias were able to shake the Dimensional Gap, and if the Dimensional Gap contained the timelines, its effects would be felt in other timelines, including the novel timeline.

I proposed that the timelines could be "Super Timelines," that is, timelines so "large" that they could contain a timeless realm within them.

In the end, we left the issue unresolved and things remained that way, which is why timelines on the DxD cosmology page aren't individually classified.

 

[Digital_Franz]

I don't think Franz is implying that you can reach these worlds by usual "human" means, that would be absurd, you still need a special mode of transportation whether that be teleportation, a magical bike, etc.

I think he's implying that because you can technically travel via these special devices which cross "distance", there's the implication that they aren't in entirely separate universes and are all part of the same one. Correct me if I'm wrong though

You aren't wrong.

Now, I don't agree with this because of the Dimensional Gap's nature,

Well, the problem is that they may be spatially separated, but they're still part of the “same” physical universe. As I took the example of a house and its rooms, its rooms are separated by walls in such a way that you can't say that one room is the other, but ultimately they are part of the same physical space, the house. Transposed to our case, the walls are the Dimensional Gap, which is a void inside. The problem with the Dimensional Gap is that they use scans from the anime, and that part, in addition to not being canon, seems to have a lot of errors. Also, It's worth noting that here being a void frankly means nothing unless it qualifies for 1-A or higher.

as well as the statements of having their own flow of time,

Well, like I say since, it can happen in the same universe.

but I think the real thing is whether all of these have different "space-times". The focus should be less on are the worlds separated or not, because it doesn't matter if they are or aren't, if they have their own different space-times then that's just plain low 2-c.

Yeah and they fail to do so, they have no solid evidence.

Although i guess the next thing is, are they infinite in size because from what I've been told you can't get 4D / Low 2-C without the construct that space time applies to being infinite.

No they don't need to be infinite, but universe-sized. These dimensions actually aren't universe-sized so...

So, what's OP proposing really?

Can someone summarize why the individual realms in a single "world" such as Draconic Deus (DxD) are separate space-times and not several 3-D spaces on the same time axis?

Basically this.

(I want to throw this guys at DMC for fun)

Bruh not part of my agenda.

On the subject of time, it's a bit complicated.
Know that the Underworld has its own flow of time, as in the past it differed from the human world by an unknown amount, but for the convenience of reincarnated demons, the Demon Kings synchronized it with the human world.
Know that in the Dimensional Gap that separates the worlds, time does not exist.

But then there is the issue of timelines, know that the worlds of DxD, ExE and FxF are part of the same timeline, that means that each timeline having its own DxD World must also have its own Dimensional Gap.

When Masque and others were working on the cosmology page, this was a matter of confusion. How could a realm without time be affected by changes in the timeline?

Masque had the idea that the Dimensional Gap was larger than we thought and that it contained not only the planes of existence of DxD, but also the timelines.

But it created a problem since in the anime timeline, Issei and Rias were able to shake the Dimensional Gap, and if the Dimensional Gap contained the timelines, its effects would be felt in other timelines, including the novel timeline.

I proposed that the timelines could be "Super Timelines," that is, timelines so "large" that they could contain a timeless realm within them.

In the end, we left the issue unresolved and things remained that way, which is why timelines on the DxD cosmology page aren't individually classified.

And now it's catching you up. If you'd tried to handle it properly, you'd have seen other problems like the one with Timelines.

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

I'll switch my vote to neutral for now, but I do think it'd better to have a more concrete showing of if these worlds have separate space-times.

I assume this doesn't affect the overall 2-C rating though? Cause from what I glanced part of that comes from separate timelines which do exist.

 

[Digital_Franz]

I'll switch my vote to neutral for now, but I do think it'd better to have a more concrete showing of if these worlds have separate space-times.

I assume this doesn't affect the overall 2-C rating though? Cause from what I glanced part of that comes from separate timelines which do exist.

Yeah, 2-C remains, only the Top Tiers gonna be downgraded to 3-A.