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Dragon Ball: Spiritual Energy

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i don't really get the whole goku black thing anyway. if ki is linked directly to the soul, then what does zamasu gain from putting his soul in goku's body? apparently, he doesn't get any of goku's ki in the exchange which feels like the whole reason he would even want his body. he just gets a vaguely asian guy's muscular body and his own original soul and ki ig
 
CryoTheMayo said:
No one has argued Ki as a whole is intangible. What OP proposes is that Ki has NPI with souls/ectoplasm. As in it can interact with those things. Not that Ki is non-physical inherently.
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Well yeah I get that, but doesnt the argument for the soul NPI indirectly implicate that ki attacks, which are why he's proposing that, being spiritual would thus be intangible and so interacting with them is NPI.

Like it isnt stated directly in OP by thats what itd lead to.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
i don't really get the whole goku black thing anyway. if ki is linked directly to the soul, then what does zamasu gain from putting his soul in goku's body? apparently, he doesn't get any of goku's ki in the exchange which feels like the whole reason he would even want his body. he just gets a vaguely asian guy's muscular body and his own original soul and ki ig
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Saiyan biology

Zamasu took advantage of the Saiyans' zenkai, and he talks about how all that damage would make him more and more powerful several times in the anime and manga.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
i don't really get the whole goku black thing anyway. if ki is linked directly to the soul, then what does zamasu gain from putting his soul in goku's body? apparently, he doesn't get any of goku's ki in the exchange which feels like the whole reason he would even want his body. he just gets a vaguely asian guy's muscular body and his own original soul and ki ig
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Be fr

Ki isn't soul only, it's also body and mind. Body still influences Ki. Changing your body would still influence your Ki

Also like, are we forgetting WHY Zamasu wanted Goku's body in first place? You know the whole point of getting a STRONG body for his 0 mortal plan?

Could he do that with his original body? No.
 
Chariot190 said:
Well yeah I get that, but doesnt the argument for the soul NPI indirectly implicate that ki attacks, which are why he's proposing that, being spiritual would thus be intangible and so interacting with them is NPI.

Like it isnt stated directly in OP by thats what itd lead to.
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Yeah I'm not going to argue it right now. I want OP to elaborate on it.
 
Chariot190 said:
Well yeah I get that, but doesnt the argument for the soul NPI indirectly implicate that ki attacks, which are why he's proposing that, being spiritual would thus be intangible and so interacting with them is NPI.

Like it isnt stated directly in OP by thats what itd lead to.
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I think he’s arguing that ki is ectoplasmic in nature due to being a spiritual energy, and that ki has been shown to be able to affect souls through stuff like Mafuba.

OP kinda dipped on us, so I’m not 100% sure on the argument though.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
"Mm-hmm. Both Son Goku, and yet not Son Goku—that's the ★ Ki ★ that I'm sensing from this Black guy."

Or, that he has the same mind. Y'know, the impersonal mind which gave the original Zamasu his distinctly ominous feel.

If only we had a precedent for body swapping in Dragon Ball. It's Ginyu.

Firstly, cross-continuity scaling. Secondly, he uses kokoro.
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Kokoro means both consciousness and soul, so most likely both his consciousness and soul are in Goku's body, that's why later they fuse in at a cellular level and gowazu calls them one and the same, because they have the same soul and consciousness, also it is strange that black calls only his divine consciousness instead of his divine soul which makes more sense.
 
Related to Goku Black's Ki = Soul case, I want to bring up Cell. Didn't characters mention that Cell's Ki was like a mix of Goku's, Vegeta's, Frieza's and everyone his cells were extracted to form him?

Edit: Nvm, didn't see someone already brought it
 
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TheTenno07 said:
Kokoro means both consciousness and soul, so most likely both his consciousness and soul are in Goku's body, that's why later they fuse in at a cellular level and gowazu calls them one and the same, because they have the same soul and consciousness, also it is strange that black calls only his divine consciousness instead of his divine soul which makes more sense.
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Dragon Ball already has a word for soul in regards to life after death and one's spiritual essence, yatta yatta—魂 (tamashī).
 
CryoTheMayo said:
No one has argued Ki as a whole is intangible. What OP proposes is that Ki has NPI with souls/ectoplasm. As in it can interact with those things. Not that Ki is non-physical inherently.
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What about Soul Manip resistance? Where is that coming from?

Also... what is the evidence that "Ki can interact with those things"? Again, the OP is kind of confusing imo
 
Nullflowerblush said:
i don't really get the whole goku black thing anyway. if ki is linked directly to the soul, then what does zamasu gain from putting his soul in goku's body? apparently, he doesn't get any of goku's
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The body is the earthly vehicle for using the power of the soul through consciousness.

It's nature is more than anything spiritual Called, spirit by the Yadratians, and more importantly, Goku could use the genkidama in the other world (Y'know, the place of disembodied souls) and detect spirits.

We know that souls maintain their consciousness in the afterlife and their ki, as mentioned before, Raditz fought with Yenma.

A person's body also retains that person's power, just as consciousness has, since they were linked to the soul.
In Buu they awakened the consciousness of the great lord of Lords, but his ki was in uub Bulma scenes before mentioned that mortal ki was not enough, but uub despite also being mortal, had divine ki inherently Buu became stronger and Goku mentions it, but at no point does he say that his ki changed. Why? They awakened his consciousness, but the soul wasn't in that Buu
And the conscience of the Lord of Lords, knows his techniques, but he did not have the power to do them. Moro says he does not have the same power as back then
That is, the body adapts and preserves the power of the Spirit, consciousness, your personality, potential and part of your essence, and your soul, your essence and your ki, for those reasons Black was still a god despite being in a mortal body, both his consciousness and ki migrated to Goku's body, and that's why Uub is a mortal with divine ki.
 
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For reference. I agree with ectoplasm shit, especially because iirc guide just straight up says as much.
Ki involving the soul is fine too (note, involving the soul and BEING the soul, are not the same thing).

But soul res has no backing, it just kinda says yep soul res with zero elaboration and I can't think of why it'd be a thing. OP needs to explain that shit first.

And NPI is fine, but not for the misleading reasons implicated in the OP that indirectly ultimately concludes that ki as a whole is noncorporal and thus interacting with it in general, would be soul based NPI, not only because ki involving "soul energy" to be put bluntly doesn't make it the soul itself (even if they CAN interact with souls, that being the case doesn't mean this exact reason is true), but ki is often shown tangible (although intangible ki is a thing, not every ki attack is. In fact the mere existence of specifically intangible ki attacks implies ki attacks that aren't those isn't).
 
TheTenno07 said:
The body is the earthly vehicle for using the power of the soul through consciousness.

Its nature is more than anything Its nature is more than anything spiritual Called spirit by the Yadratians, and more importantly, Goku could use the genkidama in the other world (Y'know, the place of disembodied souls) and detect spirits.

We know that souls maintain their consciousness in the afterlife and their ki, as mentioned before, Raditz fought with Yenma.

A person's body also retains that person's power, just as consciousness has, since they were linked to the soul.
In Buu they awakened the consciousness of the great lord of Lords, but his ki was in uub Bulma scenes before mentioned that mortal ki was not enough, but uub despite also being mortal, had divine ki inherently Buu became stronger and Goku mentions it, but at no point does he say that his ki changed. Why? They awakened his consciousness, but the soul wasn't in that Buu.
And the conscience of the Lord of Lords, knows his techniques, but he did not have the power to do them. Moro says he does not have the same power as back then.
That is, the body adapts and preserves the power of the Spirit, consciousness, your personality, potential and part of your essence, and your soul, your essence and your ki, for those reasons Black was still a god despite being in a mortal body, both his consciousness and ki migrated to Goku's body, and that's why Uub is a mortal with divine ki.
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Respectfully, could you rephrase?
 
Chariot190 said:
And NPI is fine, but not for the misleading reasons implicated in the OP that indirectly ultimately concludes that ki as a whole is noncorporal and thus interacting with it in general, would be soul based NPI, not only because ki involving "soul energy" to be put bluntly doesn't make it the soul itself (even if they CAN interact with souls, that being the case doesn't mean this exact reason is true), but ki is often shown tangible (although intangible ki is a thing, not every ki attack is. In fact the mere existence of specifically intangible ki attacks implies ki attacks that aren't those isn't)
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In the Mafuba section, in Daizenshuu 2 it is stated that Mafuba targets evil ki and it turns out that its reversal technique can also target good ki. While in Daizenshuu 4 it is stated that Mafuba is a variation/derivative of ki manipulation. However, in Daizenshuu 7 it is stated as a "special" category.

In the fight between Kami and Piccolo Jr., Piccolo Jr. learns the Mafuba reversal technique which can then interact with Kami's soul/spirit in Shen's body. At least it can be said that ki has the potential to interact with souls/spirits, and we are confirmed in the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga that both ki control and spirit control are synonyms or the same thing. As shown by Vegeta (Spirit Fission Force) who can even work like a Spirit Bomb when he gives Earthling energy to Goku.

If I'm not mistaken, the Spirit Bomb also takes life energy from living beings, I forgot but I do remember that King Kai forbade Goku from absorbing too much of the energy of living beings because it could kill them.
 
SwordLegendz01 said:
In the Mafuba section, in Daizenshuu 2 it is stated that Mafuba targets evil ki and it turns out that its reversal technique can also target good ki. While in Daizenshuu 4 it is stated that Mafuba is a variation/derivative of ki manipulation. However, in Daizenshuu 7 it is stated as a "special" category.

In the fight between Kami and Piccolo Jr., Piccolo Jr. learns the Mafuba reversal technique which can then interact with Kami's soul/spirit in Shen's body. At least it can be said that ki has the potential to interact with souls/spirits, and we are confirmed in the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga that both ki control and spirit control are synonyms or the same thing. As shown by Vegeta (Spirit Fission Force) who can even work like a Spirit Bomb when he gives Earthling energy to Goku.

If I'm not mistaken, the Spirit Bomb also takes life energy from living beings, I forgot but I do remember that King Kai forbade Goku from absorbing too much of the energy of living beings because it could kill them.
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What's that have to do with anything? That doesn't mean something like Freeza's Supernova is intangible and needs NPI to interact with.
nobody is saying ki doesn't have spiritual aspects, nobody is saying ki CAN'T be intangible under the right conditions either, just that it doesn't remote apply to every instance of ki.

Mind you, those points don't actually prove anything, like yeah the Mafuba has sealing, but it sealing souls doesn't change anything? Or like, yeah the spirit bomb uses energy? That doesn't mean the attack is intangible.
 
The most i could see is either an unconventional resistance via overloading people who try eating their ki, that or looking into whether auras are by default intangible.
 
Chariot190 said:
What's that have to do with anything? That doesn't mean something like Freeza's Supernova is intangible and needs NPI to interact with.
nobody is saying ki doesn't have spiritual aspects, nobody is saying ki CAN'T be intangible under the right conditions either, just that it doesn't remote apply to every instance of ki.

Mind you, those points don't actually prove anything, like yeah the Mafuba has sealing, but it sealing souls doesn't change anything? Or like, yeah the spirit bomb uses energy? That doesn't mean the attack is intangible.
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I have no intention of making ki intangible in general. I think I will remove the NPI part to avoid any misunderstanding, I don't think there is a need for NPI emphasis if Ki Manipulation is Soul Manipulation.
 
SwordLegendz01 said:
I have no intention of making ki intangible in general. I think I will remove the NPI part to avoid any misunderstanding, I don't think there is a need for NPI emphasis if Ki Manipulation is Soul Manipulation.
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Maybe not, but I'm just thinking ahead here. It might not be what you proposed but it would imply that's the case.

Besides that, everything else is fine atm imo, and they already have NPI anyway so not even losing anything there.
 
I'm not really about to dive too deep into this but I disagree with Ectoplasm.
The fact that a special attack is noted to be "Ki in an ectoplasm form" means that it's not ectoplasm to begin with.
It's just Chi Manipulation with extra steps. Not ectoplasm
 
KingTempest said:
I'm not really about to dive too deep into this but I disagree with Ectoplasm.
The fact that a special attack is noted to be "Ki in an ectoplasm form" means that it's not ectoplasm to begin with.
It's just Chi Manipulation with extra steps. Not ectoplasm
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The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate the explicit spiritual nature of ki, which is the energy of the spirit. What it basically describes the Hax. And it agrees with what executor said in past threads that there is no mention of ki changing its nature to ectoplasmic, since its nature is Already Spiritual
 
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Damage3245 said:
I don't agree with Ectoplasm Manipulation or Soul Manipulation.
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Bro says that he agrees with chariot, chariot says the changes look fine, damage says he disagrees with the thread, because??
joe-biden-presidential-debate.png
 
TiltedFN said:
Bro says that he agrees with chariot, chariot says the changes look fine, damage says he disagrees with the thread, because??
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The comment that I agreed with when I posted was primarily this:

It being DERIVED from spiritual shit wouldnt inherently grant NPI unless it has feats of being interacted with while noncorporal.
I legit cant think of a single instance something like a ki blast showed intangible properties, they usually even display mass and physical properties.
Click to expand...

And it looks like the OP was updated to remove the NPI stuff.
 
Damage3245 said:
The comment that I agreed with when I posted was primarily this:



And it looks like the OP was updated to remove the NPI stuff.
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Well, Chariot only disagrees with Intangibility

but he has no problem with soul manipulation, in fact he even said that ectoplasm manipulation seems decent
 
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