Dragon Ball: Spiritual Energy

[Vietthai96]

Completely wrong??????

Vegeta questions why Copy Vegeta hesitated in attempting to absorb Trunks, and Potage then informs him that Copy Vegeta absorbed both all of his abilities and techniques and perfectly replicated his "spirit"/"mind" (精神 seishin), explaining why Copy Vegeta felt reluctance in the face of "his" son, before further explaining that Copy Vegeta's "heart" (心 kokoro) is controlled by Commeson and its evil intent.

Ki is never even brought up in the conversation.

Seriously, i don't think the verse need to constantly bring up Ki every single time, like we know that Copy Vegeta also have Vegeta's power, or his Ki, also

Ki power certainly does not exist simply for the purpose of attacking. Ki takes various shapes based on the person using it. Almost as if it reflects the user's heart...

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20111104071908/http://kanzentai.com/trans-daiz04.php?m=05&id=attacks#link

There are too many "comparison" between Ki and thing like spiritual, mind, etc........ i think you are grasping at straws by now

Also, i couldn't find the episode for now, but literally when Zamasu used Super Shenron to switch soul with Goku to obtain his body, Goku Black have Zamasu's ki signature instead of Goku's, it is an perfect example of Ki is tied with soul. If Ki have nothing to do with soul, then when Zamasu take Goku body, Goku Black should have Goku's ki signature instead

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Looks good, I agree. The entire Moro saga is a big ass point that points to ki = spirit/soul. It's blatant as it can be.

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

Seriously, i don't think the verse need to constantly bring up Ki every single time, like we know that Copy Vegeta also have Vegeta's power, or his Ki, also


There are too many "comparison" between Ki and thing like spiritual, mind, etc........ i think you are grasping at straws by now

Also, i couldn't find the episode for now, but literally when Zamasu used Super Shenron to switch soul with Goku to obtain his body, Goku Black have Zamasu's ki signature instead of Goku's, it is an perfect example of Ki is tied with soul. If Ki have nothing to do with soul, then when Zamasu take Goku body, Goku Black should have Goku's ki signature instead

this whole thing about soul swapping and the ki signature being the same as the owner of the soul in question and not the owner of the original body itself is blatant evidence

 

[CosmoDark38]

If this counts as ectoplasm manipulation, then so would every spiritual attack in fiction

Though the op explains it poorly, it's primarily because gotenk's super ghost kamikaze attack is described as ectoplasm in guidebooks.

 

[Stefano4444]

Also, i couldn't find the episode for now, but literally when Zamasu used Super Shenron to switch soul with Goku to obtain his body, Goku Black have Zamasu's ki signature instead of Goku's, it is an perfect example of Ki is tied with soul. If Ki have nothing to do with soul, then when Zamasu take Goku body, Goku Black should have Goku's ki signature instead

Speaking about body swap, didn't Gohan and Krillin sense that Ginyu was inside Goku's body at Namek after the former swap body?

I do know that Gohan could tell when Goku returned to his body via his Ki Sense, which further support that Ki = Soul.

 

[Vietthai96]

Speaking about body swap, didn't Gohan and Krillin sense that Ginyu was inside Goku's body at Namek after the former swap body?

I do know that Gohan could tell when Goku returned to his body via his Ki Sense, which further support that Ki = Soul.

Yeah, i also remember about Ginyu case, but since this case was very long time ago so i'm not very sure so i didn't bring it up, thank for checking this case

 

[Hayato5652]

I agree with this Thread

 

[Eseseso]

Now that I think about it, I still agree with NPI and ectoplasm manipulation but am not sure about soul manipulation and resistance to soul manipulation since most Ki users don't actually affect someone else's ki.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Though the op explains it poorly, it's primarily because gotenk's super ghost kamikaze attack is described as ectoplasm in guidebooks.

Then I disagree

I still need an explanation as to why it grants characters soul resistance however. But I feel like just being "chi" is enough for it to be spiritual and these scans aren't really needed?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

-snip-

Krillin was sensing Goku's Ki. Because Ginyu was in Goku's body. Krillin initially mistook Ginyu-Goku for Ginyu because Goku's Ki was warped by Ginyu's evil nature; however, neither Krillin, Gohan, or even Vegeta could distinguish between Goku's Ki and Ginyu-Goku's Ki. Goku even later confirms his Ki is, indeed, still in his body and not inside of Ginyu's. The only thing did Ginyu did was swap their consciousnesses (意識 ishiki).

Gohan could tell Goku returned to his body because Ginyu's evil was no longer present in Goku's body.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Krillin was sensing Goku's Ki. Because Ginyu was in Goku's body. Krillin initially mistook Ginyu-Goku for Ginyu because Goku's Ki was warped by Ginyu's evil nature; however, neither Krillin, Gohan, or even Vegeta could distinguish between Goku's Ki and Ginyu-Goku's Ki. Goku even later confirms his Ki is, indeed, still in his body and not inside of Ginyu's. The only thing did Ginyu did was swap their consciousnesses (意識 ishiki).

Gohan could tell Goku returned to his body because Ginyu's evil was no longer present in Goku's body.

You are not a Japanese speaker, much less an Asian or some sort. But you seem to always know the meaning of every ******* Kanji in existance. You Western Weabo...

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Can I talk about Cell? Or, is Cell a special exception like Androids 17 and 18?
What about Super Saiyan Future Trunks having "the same Chi as Dad had that time"? Same Ki, same soul?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Disagree, Ki in general is pretty much physical and mental energy. This is a pretty standard chi system. If you don't carefully read the kanji pretty much every ki system can be argued this way.

Moro has Soul Manipulation because he literally absorbs souls and etc with his magic.

Vegeta has it via learning how to harness this power.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Can I talk about Cell? Or, is Cell a special exception like Androids 17 and 18?
What about Super Saiyan Future Trunks having "the same Chi as Dad had that time"? Same Ki, same soul?

Cell is a Bio-Android made by the DNA of living living beings.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Ki in general is pretty much physical and mental energy.

Ki is made up of, mental, physical AND spiritual energy too. It is composed of three distinct components including "energy" (元気, genki), "courage" (勇気, yūki), and "mind" (正気, shōki). The "mind" or "soul" of the user is shown to affect the signal of their ki.


Remember when Zamasu switched bodies with Goku?

 

[AwkguyDB]

After reading Null’s points, I agree with the OP cuz wtf was that

 

[Spinoirr]

Shouldn't every power system that is the power of the soul/Manifestation of the soul? Also any power system that's described as "life energy", "essence" also be Soul Manipulation?

 

[CelestialVortex01]

snip

bait used to be believable

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

After reading Null’s points, I agree with the OP cuz wtf was that

XD

 

[RoninSlayer200]

Ki is made up of, mental, physical AND spiritual energy too. It is composed of three distinct components including "energy" (元気, genki), "courage" (勇気, yūki), and "mind" (正気, shōki). The "mind" or "soul" of the user is shown to affect the signal of their ki.


Remember when Zamasu switched bodies with Goku?

Now Null gonna try to "debunk" you with saying "uhm, that Kanji actually means THIS, not THAT. Because I know it better than you."

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Now Null gonna try to "debunk" you with saying "uhm, that Kanji actually means THIS, not THAT. Because I know it better than you."

Bro is grasping at straws with this one. He most likely will throw me around copy pasted Kanjis, in reponse....

 

[TheTenno07]

Can I talk about Cell? Or, is Cell a special exception like Androids 17 and 18?
What about Super Saiyan Future Trunks having "the same Chi as Dad had that time"? Same Ki, same soul?

In that context, Gohan establishes that his power is similar, similar to what El manga legendario does with dabura and cell

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Can I talk about Cell? Or, is Cell a special exception like Androids 17 and 18?
What about Super Saiyan Future Trunks having "the same Chi as Dad had that time"? Same Ki, same soul?

Bro?? It clearly depends on what’s being mentioned in the context. It’s talking about how Goku and Trunks had a similar energy signature and power source from both turning SSJ. Like we’re not denying ki has no relation to your power, speed, and statistics. We’re just pointing out that it’s a spiritual aspect to it too.

Also, why aren’t you trying to address the claims of Ki being a spiritual energy in general, and just mentioning random irrelevant things. The DBS manga makes it quite clear that Spirit Control & Ki Control are the same thing, but that they’re just different names. Ki literally is a spiritual energy source that strengthens you.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Although chakra is vital energy, it is still produced by the organs, from what I remember, according to Rock Lee

There are not many connections and evidence with the soul, for example, I am not the greatest expert in Naruto, just remembering

Chakra has the exact mental energy and physical energy thing. Its pretty standard for chi based energy systems.

Ki is made up of, mental, physical AND spiritual energy too. It is composed of three distinct components including "energy" (元気, genki), "courage" (勇気, yūki), and "mind" (正気, shōki). The "mind" or "soul" of the user is shown to affect the signal of their ki.


Remember when Zamasu switched bodies with Goku?

Yeah he swapped his consciousness to another body like Ginyu via the SDB’s.

The standard KI user does not manipulate souls. They have to either use magic or learn an advanced form of ki manipulation techniques from the Yardrats.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Krillin was sensing Goku's Ki. Because Ginyu was in Goku's body. Krillin initially mistook Ginyu-Goku for Ginyu because Goku's Ki was warped by Ginyu's evil nature; however, neither Krillin, Gohan, or even Vegeta could distinguish between Goku's Ki and Ginyu-Goku's Ki. Goku even later confirms his Ki is, indeed, still in his body and not inside of Ginyu's. The only thing did Ginyu did was swap their consciousnesses (意識 ishiki).

Gohan could tell Goku returned to his body because Ginyu's evil was no longer present in Goku's body.

Please stop trying to use your translation to try to be right, when several evidences refute you on your subjects.

 

[TheTenno07]

Chakra has the exact mental energy and physical energy thing. Its pretty standard for chi based energy systems.

Yeah he swapped his consciousness to another body like Ginyu via the SDB’s.

The standard KI user does not manipulate souls. They have to either use magic or learn an advanced form of ki manipulation techniques from the Yardrats.

The Yadrats Use spirit to refer to ki, and black states that his divine soul is in Goku's body

 

[TiltedFN]

Chakra has the exact mental energy and physical energy thing. Its pretty standard for chi based energy systems.

Stop bringing up chakra, it's irrelevant, both energy systems are different and have different evidence for what is being proposed.

Yeah he swapped his consciousness to another body like Ginyu via the SDB’s.

No, he swapped souls with goku.

The standard KI user does not manipulate souls. They have to either use magic or learn an advanced form of ki manipulation techniques from the Yardrats.

That isn't true, they learn unique techniques from the yardrats yes, but that doesn't mean ki users don't already affect souls. Have you forgotten that souls that are killed by demon clansmen make it so the souls do not go to the afterlife? Their heart influences HOW they affect souls, but that's already done in of itself, this isn't anything new.

 

[Omegabronic]

Btw where is the Soul Manip resistance in the OP coming from? Kind of confusing from my perspective

 

[Chariot190]

For the record, while I agree ki has spiritual aspects.
It being DERIVED from spiritual shit wouldnt inherently grant NPI unless it has feats of being interacted with while noncorporal.

I legit cant think of a single instance something like a ki blast showed intangible properties, they usually even display mass and physical properties.

If someone has some examples that change things tho.
(A few characters not withstanding like Moro).

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with Chariot. I also think that Null does have some valid points; also people really ought to stop taking digs at Null in their responses. It comes across as Ad Hominem attacks. Remain focused on the arguments and not who is making the arguments.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

when Zamasu used Super Shenron to switch soul with Goku to obtain his body, Goku Black have Zamasu's ki signature instead of Goku's, it is an perfect example of Ki is tied with soul.

1. Goku Black has Goku's Ki, as Beerus confirms, only with a strange feeling.
2. Goku Black's Ki felt similar to Zamasu's because Zamasu's "cold spirit hidden within" was reflected by his Ki, giving both an identical sinister presence—like Ginyu.
3. Zamasu used the Dragon Balls to swap bodies with Goku, not souls.

 

[TheTenno07]

1. Goku Black has Goku's Ki, as Beerus confirms, only with a strange feeling.
2. Goku Black's Ki felt similar to Zamasu's because Zamasu's "cold spirit hidden within" was reflected by his Ki, giving both an identical sinister presence—like Ginyu.
3. Zamasu used the Dragon Balls to swap bodies with Goku, not souls.

1-Beerus talks about his appearance, he doesn't mention his ki anywhere
2-That scan reinforces that Black's ki is Zamasu's.
3-What the f* does that even mean? If u swap bodies then is one of two, either your consciousness or your soul is in others body, also As I show before his soul is in Goku's body

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Please be genuine.

 

[TiltedFN]

Please be genuine.

Null, you have no room to talk. How is a legit counter to your claims not being genuine? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

For the record, while I agree ki has spiritual aspects.
It being DERIVED from spiritual shit wouldnt inherently grant NPI unless it has feats of being interacted with while noncorporal.

I legit cant think of a single instance something like a ki blast showed intangible properties, they usually even display mass and physical properties.

If someone has some examples that change things tho.
(A few characters not withstanding like Moro).

You can see here in the Ki Manipulation page examples of NPI based off interacting with intangible Ki. Toei also already has NPI with Souls, Spirits, Ghosts.

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

You can see here in the Ki Manipulation page examples of NPI based off interacting with intangible Ki. Toei also already has NPI with Souls, Spirits, Ghosts.

well remembered

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I'm confused on where the resistance is coming from. Manipulating your own soul into ki blasts, how does that affect other people's souls again?

 

[Chariot190]

You can see here in the Ki Manipulation page examples of NPI based off interacting with intangible Ki. Toei also already has NPI with Souls, Spirits, Ghosts.

Maybe im misunderstanding, might be, but to my understanding, we're giving NPI via interacting with ki slop, which in turn implicates ki is intangible itself?
We're not giving ki in general noncorporality right?

Npi is fine, theyve hit intangible shit before, they already have it as you pointed out, but the OP seems to implicate all ki is inherently like that.

If so, disagree on that, shit like Super Nova is def not intangible. Ki can be intangible, but not all ki attacks are.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Beerus talks about his appearance, he doesn't mention his ki anywhere

"Mm-hmm. Both Son Goku, and yet not Son Goku—that's the ★ Ki ★ that I'm sensing from this Black guy."

That scan reinforces that Black's ki is Zamasu's.

Or, that he has the same mind. Y'know, the impersonal mind which gave the original Zamasu his distinctly ominous feel.

If u swap bodies then is one of two, either your consciousness or your soul is in others body,

If only we had a precedent for body swapping in Dragon Ball. It's Ginyu.

also As I show before his soul is in Goku's body

Firstly, cross-continuity scaling. Secondly, he uses kokoro.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Maybe im misunderstanding, might be, but to my understanding, we're giving NPI via interacting with ki slop, which in turn implicates ki is intangible itself?
We're not giving ki in general noncorporality right?

Npi is fine, theyve hit intangible shit before, they already have it as you pointed out, but the OP seems to implicate all ki is inherently like that.

If so, disagree on that, shit like Super Nova is def not intangible. Ki can be intangible, but not all ki attacks are.

No one has argued Ki as a whole is intangible. What OP proposes is that Ki has NPI with souls/ectoplasm. As in it can interact with those things. Not that Ki is non-physical inherently.