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Maou Gakuin additions

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Dog3352 said:
If you want to prove that the order is not fundamental, you have to make a type 1 downgrade topic, do not keep downgrade comments to CM1 in a topic that has nothing to do with CM 1, order like CM1 has already been accepted, if not satisfied and that proving that the order is not CM1, make your downgrade CRT.

And if you don't know, CM2 is still fundamental to reality.
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This depends on your choice.
Case 1: The trace is type 2 information through the Trace God being the Trace, then you acknowledge that Order is not type 1 Concept (the reason I have already mentioned).
Case 2: If the trace is not type 2 information, then Order is still type 1 Concept and not type 2 information.
 
ROZAN-U said:
as for the statement of "order not being vague concept" , it has nothing to do with any type concepts here.
or maybe by your logic it's not a vague concept but pure concept
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Jerga transforms its source (source = concept) into an order that exists eternally, hence the line "a pure concept that existed incessantly." So, as you said, before Jerga's source, it was not a concept before it transformed into Order, right?
 
Echitesu said:
This depends on your choice.
Case 1: The trace is type 2 information through the Trace God being the Trace, then you acknowledge that Order is not type 1 Concept (the reason I have already mentioned).
Case 2: If the trace is not type 2 information, then Order is still type 1 Concept and not type 2 information.
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Huh?, i just come across this, but nothing stop something being both Info 2 and Concept Type 1
 
Echitesu said:
This depends on your choice.
Case 1: The trace is type 2 information through the Trace God being the Trace, then you acknowledge that Order is not type 1 Concept (the reason I have already mentioned).
Case 2: If the trace is not type 2 information, then Order is still type 1 Concept and not type 2 information.
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Manipulation of traces is info type 2 . I already said destruction of traces doesn't affect order of trace and as long as order exist traces can be restored.So nnothing here is affecting type 1 concept
Echitesu said:
Jerga transforms its source (source = concept) into an order that exists eternally, hence the line "a pure concept that existed incessantly." So, as you said, before Jerga's source, it was not a concept before it transformed into Order, right?
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before jerga source would still be a concept , but it became "pure concept" after being one with order.

edit: also it doesn't really matter for order concept type here , so don't derail by arguing that.
 
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Fixxed said:
Aca 4 interaction?
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I saw myself agreeing with @Tatsumi504 comment
Tatsumi504 said:
What would the negation of type 4 acausality even constitute? Type 4 is for those who operate under different causal systems so the negation of that would be bringing them into the normal one so I'd disagree on type 4 negation. This is more of an interaction feat, negation would be more like Venudonoa being able to remove something from the order of time, Equis incorporating various other misfits into order, using reincarnation to incorporate a misfit into order like Anos suggested he could do to Graham using Gijerica.

Unless we have another interpretation of what negating type 4 constitutes, I'm inclined to disagree
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Fixxed said:
Well i mean, there are no something called aca 4 interaction. Everyone can interact with someone that have aca 4
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Not to say with the person themselves, we are taking into account the true (empty) form of Graham into account, with Venuz/Meocd and Anos source being the only ones who can interact with Graham's true void, something like "interact and destroy ACC4" count as ACC4 negation?
 
Dog3352 said:
Not to say with the person themselves, we are taking into account the true (empty) form of Graham into account, with Venuz/Meocd and Anos source being the only ones who can interact with Graham's true void,
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It was NEP 2 erasure/interaction
Dog3352 said:
something like "interact and destroy ACC4" count as ACC4 negation?
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There are no such thing like aca 4 interaction
 
Dog3352 said:
So "interaction" has to be replaced by "negation"?
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I think it's more up to a personal interpretation than anything else.

I personally think NPI for it would be better, since it only allows him to interact normally with it.
Negation would be him making Graham work on normal casualty, and from my knowledge, he doesn't stop being a misfit, no?
 
Yeah there is no Aca4 interaction, Aca4 user isn't uninteractible, at best we could have fate, causal hax that can affect Aca4, but it is in case Aca4 give any meaningful effects. Other than non-physical being, only Aca5 is uninteractible and even then characters who can interact with aca5, we didn't give a power such as Aca 5 interaction
 
Neutral on Acausality negation and Information Manip Type 2, rest looks good.
 
Echitesu said:
A few words are more accurate than Anos proving that the God is not Order, and Nosgalia proving to itself that it is not Order.
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Twisting some context here. What Anos tried to disqualify is not conceptual nature of Gods rather, it’s the "absoluteness" of said concepts as Gods have claimed. Nousgalia is Order in the truest sense, Anos simply showed him that he was not the Order that he think he is. They literally tackled this in volume 9.
Echitesu said:
The order is not even a concept, so it is not a type 2 concept; then what does the order of the past have to become foundational information?
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The qoutes you posted are very misleading, like the God of balance was simply pointing out how Order is not some vague idea, it's essentially a complicated predetermined set of rules, there's no "maybe" or whatnot just straight up concepts with clear purpose and mechanics. Hence the "not some vague concept".
 
Antvasima said:
What are the conclusions and summarised arguments here so far? 🙏
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I am still fine with everything else except npi and negation towards aca type 4 and for physics manp, I agree with this post regarding it.
Tatsumi504 said:
Before I forget, I think I mentioned this when Order also got physics manipultaion but, not every order will pertain to affecting physics. The Order of gravity, light, sound might constitute manipulating physics same with creation and destruction that have feats akin to affecting vectors but an order like birth, death, termination, binding etc would have nothing to do with that (actually, Wesnera could probably break physics in some way but you get the point.
Click to expand...
 
Just to reformulate ACC4 negation:

Both Anos and Graham are beings beyond order and reason, Anos Source is quite obvious because it would have denial of ACC4, besides existing beyond the order and its source continuously destroy even the true void of Graham, there is also the fact that venuzdono is literally the order of destruction, but thanks to the MEoCD (power of Anos) that is at Venuz herself, Venuz is able to destroy even Graham's true form through reason, which would be impossible for the order of destruction, since Graham exists beyond order.

This Venuzdonoa thing also gives even more credibility to the Anos source itself, since the capacity to destroy reason at this level comes from the power of Anos, which is in its source.

I also agree with @Tatsumi504 comment on order, only Physics -related orders will have physics manipulation, other orders (gods) not related will only have Physics "Manipulation" in their AE1, but not manipulation, unless have another plausible reason, such as Eques or the Order of Destruction.
 
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Antvasima said:
What are the conclusions and summarised arguments here so far? 🙏
Click to expand...
Dog3352 said:
Just to reformulate ACC4 negation:

Both Anos and Graham are beings beyond order and reason, Anos Source is quite obvious because it would have denial of ACC4, besides existing beyond the order and its source continuously destroy even the true void of Graham, there is also the fact that venuzdono is literally the order of destruction, but thanks to the MEoCD (power of Anos) that is at Venuz herself, Venuz is able to destroy even Graham's true form through reason, which would be impossible for the order of destruction.
Click to expand...
@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Dereck03 @CrimsonStarFallen

What do you think about this? 🙏
 
I disagree with Acausality 4 negation, there's not such thing as Type 4 doesn't make its user uninteractable, it just make its user operate in a irregular cause & effect system. The feat shown is just interaction as Anos nor Venuzdonoa are changing Graham's physiology to make him regular to normal causality.

Agree with only specific types of order getting physics manip.

As for Land of Traces being Info Type 2. I don't know why some people are saying that it only contains the memories of one person, when it clearly shows that the Book of Traces contains the records of the world, which includes everything in itself, memories, information about the world, records of the order, objects, magic and so on. And if we take a look at the Maou Gakuin Wiki's description about the Book of Traces and Land of Traces.
Book of Traces: As the God of Traces, Revalschned possesses the ability to recreate "traces" of the world, which take the form of white books and can include anything from objects to magic. He demonstrated the ability to recreate Evansmana, as well as Egil Grone Angdroa. And so long as these traces exist, Revalschned (and his contractor) can be restored.
  • Land of Traces: Revalschned's divine domain, which serves as a library for all the traces of the past. It is an endless wasteland with bookshelves extending into the horizon. Records of the entire world and its 700 million years of existence can fit inside the Land of Traces, and even then, it could hold a hundred times more with ease. To destroy it, Anos left traces of destruction that were greater than 70 billion years worth of history.
Click to expand...
  1. It is not far fetched to say that it contains every type of information possible and although as such the word information is not mentioned here it qualifies perfectly for the rest of the ability, as it has the ability to use the information/records/memories of the world stored in the Book of Traces to recreate and manipulate reality in a similar type of fashion to what the page indicates.

  2. And if you still don't think it's enough, we have that by storing the traces of the world from millions and even billions of years it also contains the traces of the spirits which are Info 2, so the order of the traces would gain this addition by default.
So there can be 2 options, accept my first point or use a possible rating by using the second point where LOT contains the spirits as well or the 3rd option, disagree with it.

So yeah, this is my stance. Don't hesitate to tell me if I have overlooked anything.

And something a bit unrelated.
I see that there were many off-topic comments that were provoked by Echitesu, honestly since they joined the wiki they has only commented against Maou threads with wrong information and even using an apparently misleading context and twisting information like the post that Glis clarified, I also remember commenting something similar, I will honestly proceed to ignore any comments coming from them, as my impression is that they does this just for spite, I am not encouraging others to do the same, just keep in mind not to feed the off-topic in the threads, if you have any complaints that do not go with the topic of the thread there is always the discussion of the verse or the message wall.
Of course, if I see that they make a comment with substance it will clearly have my attention and coherent response.
Click to expand...
 
yeah agree with dereck
and it's not a baseless assumption to say LOT contains Spirit as Anos directly says it contains traces of all living creatures

On my second step, the books in the air tore apart, scattering their pages everywhere. Groups of various animals appeared on the water while birds and dragons filled the skies. Then the traces of all living creatures were crushed under my foot and destroyed.
Click to expand...
 
Dereck03 said:
I disagree with Acausality 4 negation, there's not such thing as Type 4 doesn't make its user uninteractable, it just make its user operate in a irregular cause & effect system. The feat shown is just interaction as Anos nor Venuzdonoa are changing Graham's physiology to make him regular to normal causality.

Agree with only specific types of order getting physics manip.

As for Land of Traces being Info Type 2. I don't know why some people are saying that it only contains the memories of one person, when it clearly shows that the Book of Traces contains the records of the world, which includes everything in itself, memories, information about the world, records of the order, objects, magic and so on. And if we take a look at the Maou Gakuin Wiki's description about the Book of Traces and Land of Traces.

  1. It is not far fetched to say that it contains every type of information possible and although as such the word information is not mentioned here it qualifies perfectly for the rest of the ability, as it has the ability to use the information/records/memories of the world stored in the Book of Traces to recreate and manipulate reality in a similar type of fashion to what the page indicates.

  2. And if you still don't think it's enough, we have that by storing the traces of the world from millions and even billions of years it also contains the traces of the spirits which are Info 2, so the order of the traces would gain this addition by default.
So there can be 2 options, accept my first point or use a possible rating by using the second point where LOT contains the spirits as well or the 3rd option, disagree with it.

So yeah, this is my stance. Don't hesitate to tell me if I have overlooked anything.

And something a bit unrelated.
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I don't see any of it qualifying for Information type 2 though
crying.gif


Anyway agree with Dereck & Tatsumi points.
If we had Volume 10 TL available would have had given order itself information type 2.
 
The ACC4 thing is kind of confused to me, I can even understand why I disagree, and I even agree with that point, but then why are there characters with ACC4 negation?
 
Dog3352 said:
The ACC4 thing is kind of confused to me, I can even understand why I disagree, and I even agree with that point, but then why are there characters with ACC4 negation?
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Well, as Rozan said, that might be the cause—like stripping them of it. Either way, I think Eques might qualify, but let's ignore that for now since we don't have a translation that goes that far. Also, if someone is listed as having Acausality negation just because they can interact with some Type 4 Acausality characters in their profile, it should be removed.
 
ROZAN-U said:
They can probably strip off them from irregular causality and force them to follow normal one.
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Right.

I understand the interaction thing taking into account Dereck's comment, but if an ACC4 character gets "immunity" to things that operate in the causal system to how beyond it is, then what would be listed in the profile of a character who is able to affect an ACC4 being with something that is part of the causal system? "ACC4 NPI"?

Although Anos exists beyond the causal system either, so I don't think something is necessary to be added to the profile about this.
 
Dog3352 said:
Right.

I understand the interaction thing taking into account Dereck's comment, but if an ACC4 character gets "immunity" to things that operate in the causal system to how beyond it is, then what would be listed in the profile of a character who is able to affect an ACC4 being with something that is part of the causal system? "ACC4 NPI"?

Although Anos exists beyond the causal system either, so I don't think something is necessary to be added to the profile about this.
Click to expand...
I think personally it might be better to list it as Greater Law manipulation? Like it can even affect beings who exists outside the framework of the system.
 
Clarifying some things here:

  • ACC4 Negation is no longer being active, as it is necessary to make someone with ACC4 stop ACC4, making even the causal system affects it;
  • Physics Manipulation will only be added to physics related orders, such as the order of gravity, order of light, etc. Among other orders that qualify for other plausible reasons;
  • All the gods will have Physics in AE1, but only a few will have Physics Manipulation.
Click to expand...
 
Dog3352 said:
Clarifying some things here:
Click to expand...
Are you going to apply the changes? If so then I can open Anos' profile for you to edit. If you aren't sure about it then I have another member capable of performing the edits but he would need scans in an imgur link.
 
Dereck03 said:
Are you going to apply the changes? If so then I can open Anos' profile for you to edit. If you aren't sure about it then I have another member capable of performing the edits but he would need scans in an imgur link.
Click to expand...
I'm just organizing the scans, I'm about to send them
 
Dereck03 said:
So yeah, this is my stance. Don't hesitate to tell me if I have overlooked anything.
Click to expand...
I have not seen any explanation for the fact that the God of Traces = Ae1 IM2. Even if the Book of Traces/LOT contains the spirit (AE1 IM2), it does not mean that BoT/LoT is IM2. And assuming that BoT/LoT is IM2, if they are not the God of Traces, then why is the God of Traces Ae1 IM2?
 
Echitesu said:
I have not seen any explanation for the fact that the God of Traces = Ae1 IM2. Even if the Book of Traces/LOT contains the spirit (AE1 IM2), it does not mean that BoT/LoT is IM2. And assuming that BoT/LoT is IM2, if they are not the God of Traces, then why is the God of Traces Ae1 IM2?
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You gonna actually contribute something?
 
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