Maou Gakuin additions

[Dog3352]

Acausality type 4 Negation for Anos and Venuzdonoa/MEoCD:

Anos source and Venuzdonoa are able to destroy even Graham's true form.

"Oh, I see. So that's how it is. Smart thinking.. Indeed, he might have been capable of this, " Graham said, realizing what I was implying. “If he took the source of nihility into his own body, Nuelien would reduce the source to nothing. The Voldigoad source of destruction would then continuously destroy my nihility
~Vol 8. Ch 46

"Under the order of this world, destruction is the reduction of something to nothing. Yet before the Abolisher of Reason, which can destroy anything and everything, logic itself unravels. Thus, the effect of your blade only works up until the target is destroyed, no?" his voice echoed from the surrounding nothingness. “But the nothing left after perishing the nothingness that is not bound by reason-that is the true form of my source "
In other words, the Abolisher of Reason had definitely destroyed his nihility. But destroying his nihility and thus creating nothing in its place allowed him to escape the conditions set by the Abolisher of Reason and trigger his source into reviving him all over again.
"If you keep using the power of Venuzdonoa, I will keep perishing. But is that demon sword capable of maintaining its shape forever? Especially since this isn't your Demon King Castle."
He had a point. Venuzdonoa hada time limit it couldn't keep destroying the order of nihility for eternity. No magic could stop order from returning to its original form forever. When the sword was sheathed, reason would return, the normal order of things would resume, and the nothingness left behind would form Graham once again.

Both Anos and Graham are beings beyond order and reason, Anos Source is quite obvious because it would have denial of ACC4, besides existing beyond the order and its source continuously destroy even the true void of Graham, there is also the fact that venuzdono is literally the order of destruction, but thanks to the MEoCD (power of Anos) that is at Venuz herself, Venuz is able to destroy even Graham's true form through reason, which would be impossible for the order of destruction, since Graham exists beyond order.

This Venuzdonoa thing also gives even more credibility to the Anos source itself, since the capacity to destroy reason at this level comes from the power of Anos, which is in its source.

All feats of resists to Orders earn Physics Manipulation resistance:

Order was accepted as Physics Manipulation in this topic.
Only physics -related orders will have physics manipulation, and other orders for some raasable reasons (such as the order of destruction or the order of the chief god), other unbleed gods will obtain physics "manipulation" only in AE1

Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation (type 1), Information Manipulation (type 2), Resistance Negation, Law Manipulation and Physics Manipulation for Anos:

Anos was directly hit by an EGA invoked by the God of Traces, but while he was being destroyed, he was gaining an increase in power, with this increase in power he was able to resist the EGA and survive the attack, he also makes it clear that he was able to break the chains created by the god of Traces.

Traces of destruction-Egil Grone Angdroa," Revalschned said in a deep voice. Flames of doom appeared from the turret of magic circles. The jet-black flames covered the seven-layered spiral and fired with a deafening boom. The next moment, my limbs were weighed down.
"Traces of restriction-Gicherge." Transparent chains appeared out of nowhere and restrained my limbs.
No, I was already chained.
My body was already restrained by Gicherge as though the past had been altered. Before I could tear the chains apart, the flames of doom closed in on my body and burned me up. Fire that could destroy the world pushed my source closer to its end, but at the same time, my magic grew and grew.
"Revalschned and this land are immortal because they are the past of everything -in other words, they are the traces of everything in this world," Golroana said while watching me burn. Then his eyes widened.
"Why?" he murmured in disbelief, unable to understand how I hadn't immediately been destroyed.
"No matter how far back in time one goes, footprints are permanent," I said, looking down at my own footprints on the ground. “Footprints can be carved into this land, but they can never be erased. So how can they be destroyed?" Revalschned stared at me blankly, expecting me to perish.
"This is the answer.
I casually lifted my foot and brought it down on the ground. The footprints on the ground vanished without a trace. The magic in my step left a giant footprint that covered the land.
"They just need to be covered up by a bigger footstep. The original footprint disappears beneath the new footprint, and the bigger footprint is greater than the world can fit. In other words, when it's too much for the order of traces to handle."
“That's impossible. The entire world can fit into the land of traces. Seven hundred million years have passed from the beginning of time, yet this land can hold a hundred times more with ease. There is no trace that could possibly be larger than that," Revalschned said grimly.
"You mean in the past, right?" I drew a magic circle over my dying source, bringing the flames of doom into my body. "Unfortunately, I'm only interested in moving towards the future."
It was a close call, but I'd made it in time. Egil Grone Angdroa had pushed my source close to destruction. It had been a long time since I'd felt this close to death. The end was near. In other words, it was similar to how a flame burns brightest just before it goes out. This was the rule for every source, but the effects were all the more powerful when it applied to my source of destruction. The closer I got to destruction, the stronger I became, ultimately overcoming my eventual demise.
Under normal circumstances, it would have been impossible for me to ever be on the receiving end of Egil Grone Angdroa. Thus, I had exposed myself on purpose.
~Vol 6. Ch 38

Order of Traces is Information Manipulation Type 2:

The Order of Traces is an order that records the past and the memories of the world, turning them into traits. The Traces are registers and memories of the world's past, these registers are in books, which counts as information.

Numerous books fell silently from the vast bookshelves that stretched endlessly into the wasteland. They hovered around us and opened midair, pages tearing themselves out one after another and fluttering around like confetti. Those millions and millions of pages were the traces of records and memories of the world.
~Vol 6. Ch26

The Order of Traces has information, memories and records from all over the world militia, be it the structure, stars, and everything happens, there is even information from all living beings, which would include the spirits, which are already accepted as Info 2.

«The upstream corridor is the only path to the past. However, the corridor will only accept the past from thirty-three days prior; it will reject everything else. Time within the ruins of Ligalondrol remains stagnant while always facing upstream. Take the key, open the door, and use the boat inside to travel upstream against the flow of time. In thirty-three days, all the traces of the world shall await you in the depths of Ligalondrol.""
~Vol 6. Ch 26

"Revalschned and this land are immortal because they are the past of everything -in other words, they are the traces of everything in this world," Golroana said while watching me burn. Then his eyes widened.
"Why?" he murmured in disbelief, unable to understand how I hadn't immediately been destroyed.
~ Vol 6. Ch 38

On my second step, the books in the air tore apart, scattering their pages everywhere. Groups of various animals appeared on the water while birds and dragons filled the skies. Then the traces of all living creatures were crushed under my foot and destroyed.
~Vol 6. Ch 38

The world is structured by order. The order is what makes the thing what it is, what makes birds be birds, what makes demons being demons, etc. These are the laws of nature and magic.

"The world is structured by order. That is what makes this world what we know it to be. It is why birds are birds, and why demons are demons. It is why the skies bless the earth with rain, and why the soil nurtures the trees. It is what creates light when magic is sent into a magic circle. That is the law of nature, the law of magic -the order that makes the world this world.”
~Vol 4 act 1. Ch 6

---

Agree: @Reiner04, @ROZAN-U, @Ruler_Star_Kuma, @Ruphas_Mafahl123, @Eseseso, @Shar122, @Dereck03, @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

Disagree: @Dark_Soul20189 (with IM2,), @Hasty12345 (with IM2), @Grabbing_dragon (with IM2), @Echitesu (with IM2), @Ruler_Star_Kuma (with ACC4 Negation), @Dereck03 (with ACC4 Negation)

Neutral: @Eseseso (IM2 and ACC4 negation), @Shar122 (with IM2)

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Nothing indicates that this is Information type 2.

 

[Dog3352]

Nothing indicates that this is Information type 2.

Registers and memories count count as information.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Registers and memories count count as information.

It does not, it was hard rejected in the last thread. (talking about type 2)

Hell doesn't this go against the 3-month timer or am I missing something?

 

[Dog3352]

It does not, it was hard rejected in the last thread. (talking about type 2)

Hell doesn't this go against the 3-month timer or am I missing something?

This literally has nothing to do with the other topics (one went to magic formulas, another for sources, and this is for order), and the difference of type 1 and type 2 is the reality that information should cover, which the order covers.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

This literally has nothing to do with the other topics (one went to magic formulas, another for sources, and this is for order), and the difference of type 1 and type 2 is the reality that information should cover, which the order covers.

Then, can I request the ping of DT, Bambu, and Glassman to see if they agree with your statement and CRT?

 

[Dog3352]

Then, can I request the ping of DT, Bambu, and Glassman to see if they agree with your statement and CRT?

I think so.

 

[Reiner04]

This is fine.

 

[ROZAN-U]

disagree with vebdoz specifically
when anos tried touching graham nothingness first time it was erased without any resistance. That is why he uses vebdoz before he becomes nothingness in that scan above.

I could no longer feel the fingertips of the hand I had plunged into his stomach. It seemed I had leaped away a tad too late, and whatever it was had shaved a millimeter or so off the ends of my fingers. Vebzud, Jirasd, and Aviasten Ziara had been concentrated at the tips of those exact fingers, yet he was able to erase them without any resistance.

so vebdoz can't really touch his nothingness , you can remove it
maybe other magic like egil grone angrodoa

agree with other but I will stay neutral on Info type 2

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Then, can I request the ping of DT, Bambu, and Glassman to see if they agree with your statement and CRT?

And the award for best 'aiming' goes to..

 

[Dog3352]

disagree with vebdoz specifically
when anos tried touching graham nothingness first time it was erased without any resistance. That is why he uses vebdoz before he becomes nothingness in that scan above.

so vebdoz can't really touch his nothingness , you can remove it
maybe other magic like egil grone angrodoa

agree with other

Adding to source as it is able to continually destroy Graham's void.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Though for my opinion on this, disagree with Vebdoz, already hammered home thanks to what Rozan said.

I'm neutral on traces for information and aca neg for venzudonoa, but probably his source is better for that?? (aca neg I mean)

 

[Dog3352]

Though for my opinion on this, disagree with Vebdoz, already hammered home thanks to what Rozan said.

I'm neutral on traces for information and aca neg for venzudonoa, but probably his source is better for that?? (aca neg I mean)

disagree with vebdoz specifically
when anos tried touching graham nothingness first time it was erased without any resistance. That is why he uses vebdoz before he becomes nothingness in that scan above.

so vebdoz can't really touch his nothingness , you can remove it
maybe other magic like egil grone angrodoa

agree with other

Are you fine if I add to the Anos source?

 

[Antvasima]

I was told that this revision thread has been attempted and rejected multiple times previously.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It does not, it was hard rejected in the last thread. (talking about type 2)

Hell doesn't this go against the 3-month timer or am I missing something?

Man this is really not a argument from good faith
First of all, the Order of Traces has nothing to do with my thread or Tatsumi's thread, which got rejected. This just proves that you're disagreeing for the sake of it, without even reading what's written in the OP. I don't see any good faith from you. If you were truly neutral on the topic, you would have at least read and addressed why it's not qualified, instead of falsely claiming it was rejected previously—especially when this thread's topic of discussion is entirely different.

 

[Dog3352]

I was told that this revision thread has been attempted and rejected multiple times previously.

Well, this did not happen, a rejected topic was about magic formulas, one over sources that was not over, and this is about order, are additions to totally different things.

 

[Antvasima]

I was told that this revision thread has been attempted and rejected multiple times previously.

@Deagonx

Are you willing to take a look here please?

 

[Reiner04]

I was told that this revision thread has been attempted and rejected multiple times previously.

It was for source, not for order.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted.

 

[Antvasima]

I was told that this revision thread has been attempted and rejected multiple times previously.

@Deagonx

Are you willing to take a look here please?

@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Dereck03

Your help would also be appreciated here.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Man this is really not a argument from good faith
First of all, the Order of Traces has nothing to do with my thread or Tatsumi's thread, which got rejected. This just proves that you're disagreeing for the sake of it, without even reading what's written in the OP. I don't see any good faith from you. If you were truly neutral on the topic, you would have at least read and addressed why it's not qualified, instead of falsely claiming it was rejected previously—especially when this thread's topic of discussion is entirely different.

I am not dealing with this again.

What I am saying is that while you have different scans and arguments, the problem remains the same

It is one of the 2 scenarios

A - You have something that can be accepted as information, but not enough for it to be fundamental
B - You have something Fundamental, but it's not information

The truth is that the verse has no actual fundamental information.

 

[ROZAN-U]

Are you fine if I add to the Anos source?

yeah for anos source its OK

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Your help would also be appreciated here.

Can you also ping, @Agnaa, @Mr. Bambu @GrathOfLux @Theglassman12 @DontTalkDT ?

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

What I am saying is that while you have different scans and arguments, the problem remains the same

Then who cares? It's a debate site, why can't we try with different scans and arguments to get something, relax man. We're not up in arms about it, what are you getting upset for, can we just ATTEMPT, please?

 

[Dog3352]

I am not dealing with this again.

What I am saying is that while you have different scans and arguments, the problem remains the same

It is one of the 2 scenarios

A - You have something that can be accepted as information, but not enough for it to be fundamental
B - You have something Fundamental, but it's not information

The truth is that the verse has no actual fundamental information.

Registers and memories are information, and fundamentalism definitely exists here.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

If you were truly neutral on the topic, you would have at least read and addressed why it's not qualified, instead of falsely claiming it was rejected previously—especially when this thread's topic of discussion is entirely different.

Asking to justify the negation of an argument from someone who just always dips after sayin they "disagree" is Krazy work bro.

 

[Reiner04]

yeah for anos source its OK

Guess it's fine for Anos source in specific.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Registers and memories are information, and fundamentalism definitely exists here.

We legit came to the conclusion they are not fundamental

It was rejected that memories are not fundamental

 

[RitsuØ1]

It was for source, not for order.

I don't have ping rights but you should ping other staff too, so it just doesn't become a repeat. :yesyou:

 

[Dog3352]

We legit came to the conclusion they are not fundamental

It was rejected that memories are not fundamental

There were only 4 staffs, and DT didn't even say anything about it (besides having some confusion with him thinking that the update was for the source), the topic was closed because no one was entering the topic.

Besides the but, I'm talking about the traces, not the previous topics.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I am not dealing with this again.

What I am saying is that while you have different scans and arguments, the problem remains the same

You never addressed the actual issue. You didn’t even mention whether the new arguments still fail to qualify. The 3-month rule applies to threads with the same arguments—not to new arguments or entirely different topics.

It is one of the 2 scenarios

A - You have something that can be accepted as information, but not enough for it to be fundamental
B - You have something Fundamental, but it's not information

I don’t really care whether the staff accepts this thread or not. What I’m asking is that you start arguing by actually reading the thread first, instead of just dismissing it by claiming it’s already been rejected.

The truth is that the verse has no actual fundamental information.

How many volumes are you up to date? You seem to think you know everything about the series, enough to make bold, definitive claims like “there is no fundamental information in it."

Anyway this seems derailing. It's not just me anyone can see your arguments and replies. So whatever. I'll just stop here and let staff evaluate the thread.

You can reply to this message in Maou Discussion thread we can discuss there.

 

[Dog3352]

Anyway, keeping talking about previous topics doesn't help at all here, going straight to conversation.

@Dark_Soul20189, could you speak your position in the topic? What do you agree, what disagree, etc.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you also ping, @Agnaa, @Mr. Bambu @GrathOfLux @Theglassman12 @DontTalkDT ?

@Mr. Bambu @GrathOfLux @Theglassman12

Are any of you willing to help out here?

 

[Reiner04]

I don't have ping rights but you should ping other staff too, so it just doesn't become a repeat. :yesyou:

@GrathOfLux @Elizhaa @Celestial_Pegasus @Executor_N0 @DontTalkDT @Mr. Bambu @LephyrTheRevanchist

Your inputs will be appreciated

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

There were only 3 staff, and DT didn't even say anything about it, the topic was closed because no one was entering the topic.

Besides the but, I'm talking about the traces, not the previous topics.

There is no proof of fundamental information in these "traces."

The only thing we have is they mention is that they are "records of memories," meaning they are just memories, no fundamental stuff anywhere.

Also, the fact we combined it with the 2nd scan is nothing but misleading, since that is just an explanation of "order" something complelty irrrelevent for the first scan presented, not to mention how it is currently accepted as a concept (Something that is more fitting then randomly throwing it in as information). So, where is the "information" supposed to come from?

 

[NousGalia]

so vebdoz can't really touch his nothingness

Anos used Vebzud to touch and hold Graham's source and his own source, even though Graham's source had previously deleted Vebzud.

When I strained my Eyes, I could see his source before me. An orb of faint light that was yet to become nihility. I glared at it with my Magic Eyes of Destruction and prevented him from using Ingall. Then, I covered my fingers in Vebzud and grabbed his source.

Blood poured from my chest. With the hand holding Graham’s source, I pierced my own chest with Vebzud.

“This is the answer.”

Graham’s source was superimposed over mine as I sent it to the depths of my source.

 

[Dog3352]

Anos used Vebzud to touch and hold Graham's source and his own source, even though Graham's source had previously deleted Vebzud.

At this point it was not Graham's 'true' emptiness, but it's better anyway, ACC4 for the Anos source and Venuz is great.

 

[ROZAN-U]

Anos used Vebzud to touch and hold Graham's source and his own source, even though Graham's source had previously deleted Vebzud.

yet to become nihility

aca4 is for graham nihility ,he grabbed it before it turned into nihility/nothingness

 

[Dog3352]

There is no proof of fundamental information in these "traces."

The only thing we have is they mention is that they are "records of memories," meaning they are just memories, no fundamental stuff anywhere.

Also, the fact we combined it with the 2nd scan is nothing but misleading, since that is just an explanation of "order" something complelty irrrelevent for the first scan presented, not to mention how it is currently accepted as a concept (Something that is more fitting then randomly throwing it in as information). So, where is the "information" supposed to come from?

You are clearly not understanding what you are reading.

Yes, it is fundamental, because the traces are the very order of traces, and it is not possible that the world exists without order.

No, records and registers are used interchangeably here, they are not records of memories, they are records/records and memories of the world's past.

Yes, the 2nd scan is there for a reason, which is because the traces are the order of traces, so scan is for the traces.

 

[NousGalia]

We legit came to the conclusion they are not fundamental

It was rejected that memories are not fundamental

Why do you have to be rigid in the belief that memory is not a fundamental aspect?
Normally, it is true that memory is not a fundamental aspect of a character because it is just information in the brain.
But not every verse is the same, and there are exceptions.
In MGnF, memory is not simply ordinary information; memory is information that affects the character's existence and has all the properties that prove memory is a fundamental aspect.