History as a Fundamental Aspect: we've gone too far

[StrymULTRA]

@Antvasima this is likely gonna be much more than just applying a change to existence erasure, we’re gonna probably need a standard evaluation thread on any franchise that has existence erasure based on nuking timelines or multiverses.

Do we do a singular thread like the hax evalutation one?

 

[Theglassman12]

I'd say we should do that to streamline the evaluations as efficiently as possible, I did the same when Dimensional Manipulation and type 5 Acausality and layered hax got revamped to have a newer standard. Though we should get a few more staff members to approve of this to be safe given this is gonna be a potential site wide change.

 

[KLOL506]

@Qawsedf234 @Sir_Ovens @Planck69 @Elizhaa @GrathOfLux @Abstractions @Ultima_Reality @LephyrTheRevanchist IDK anyone smart enough to tackle this other than y'all (And the ones that already replied here), what's yer take on this?

 

[Qawsedf234]

IDK anyone smart enough to tackle this other than y'all (And the ones that already replied here), what's yer take on this?

When we assume that someone erases a timeline, we're saying that the assumption means that the flow of events are ceasing to happen, but generally I feel like fiction really accounts that the flow of events was also destroyed retroactively. I feel that unless you have a statement with a vibe like this where the erasure is the entirety of time then it probably shouldn't default to Historical erasure.

Though having said that, this is not our default assumption. To quote our universe page

In accordance with the established Tiering System, an event that results in the destruction or creation of a universe or timeline is ranked as Low 2-C (Universe level+). This designation requires that the affected area encompasses a substantial four-dimensional space, exhibits qualitative superiority over three-dimensional spaces, or comprises the entire space-time continuum. To meet these criteria, the entire timeline must be destroyed or created, taking into account all moments in time.

If you're rated as Low 2-C, the assumption is that time has been retroactively destroyed. Meaning that you'd also need to destroy it historically, which makes the power a default of our current system if you have universal timeline erasure.

 

[Reiner04]

When we assume that someone erases a timeline, we're saying that the assumption means that the flow of events are ceasing to happen, but generally I feel like fiction really accounts that the flow of events was also destroyed retroactively. I feel that unless you have a statement with a vibe like this where the erasure is the entirety of time then it probably shouldn't default to Historical erasure.

Though having said that, this is not our default assumption. To quote our universe page

If you're rated as Low 2-C, the assumption is that time has been retroactively destroyed. Meaning that you'd also need to destroy it historically, which makes the power a default of our current system if you have universal timeline erasure.

I was reading the thread for a while, and if I have to weight in, then I share the same opinion on it.

Just as destroying a timeline demonstrates 'Attack Potency,' and we conclude that whenever such a character uses their power, even if on a very small scale (low destructive capacity), they must have used their full 'Attack Potency' unless stated otherwise, the same applies to erasing a timeline. Erasing a timeline demonstrates the potency of a character's erasing hax and their potency to affect time and space. Therefore, their potency should remain the same even when applied on a small scale.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Qawsedf234 I think the issue the OP is trying to bring up isn't the fact that destroying timelines wouldn't involve history as a whole, rather I think they're trying to argue that it shouldn't mean by default they have existence erasure hax given it's making more assumptions without anything explicit on them targeting one's history, though Strym can correct me on that front.

 

[Qawsedf234]

default they have existence erasure hax given it's making more assumptions without anything explicit on them targeting one's history, though Strym can correct me on that front.

I mean history is just a sequence of events. By destroying time you destroy the sequence of events as a byproduct. I'm not sure if you can disconnect the two.

 

[Vietthai96]

I was given permission from @Reiner04

@Qawsedf234 I think the issue the OP is trying to bring up isn't the fact that destroying timelines wouldn't involve history as a whole, rather I think they're trying to argue that it shouldn't mean by default they have existence erasure hax given it's making more assumptions without anything explicit on them targeting one's history, though Strym can correct me on that front.

if i'm not wrong, we was never gave any characters have History EE via simply destroying timelines, space-times, it is always tier 2 feat, unless the verse itself either give the proofs that characters actually erase timeline.

Anyway, i think what @StrymULTRA want is we separate time/timeline/space-time and history into separate thing and don't default timeline also include history thus mean if you erase time/timeline/space-time you don't get history erasure by default. But i disagree with that notion, as @Qawsedf234 already said, time or history is just sequence of events or flow of events, this is default knowledge thus we should not separate them into two different things, and as @DontTalkDT have said, unless the verse itself specific timeline and history as two different thing

Generally, as long as a character erases their own timeline (erasing their own past) they actually should get Type 1 acausality as far as I am concerned.

I don't think destroying history can be considered a "side effect" of destroying a timeline, unless a verse makes an actual difference between 'history' and 'past'. (Touhou and Kawakami-verse arguably do that.)
In that sense, I don't mind it being considered as part of what these characters get and see no real problems with it. Like, if you survive timeline destruction via nonexistence (as opposed to via acausality), I don't think there is a problem if you have the history type. Isn't gonna do anything to let you survive anything but literally the thing you have the feat for, though.
Characters getting abilities that accurately reflect their feats is no problem in my book.

Unless i mistook something, DT and Qaw can correct me. But well i will need permission to reply since Thread Mod can only grant 1 comment permission

 

[StrymULTRA]

if i'm not wrong, we was never gave any characters have History EE via simply destroying timelines, space-times, it is always tier 2 feat, unless the verse itself either give the proofs that characters actually erase timeline.

We do though. Beerus and Zeno have History erasure for literally that.

 

[Vietthai96]

We do though. Beerus and Zeno have History erasure for literally that.

Now seriously i should not reply cause i only have 1 post perm and i spent it, but since you brought up this up

Zeno have evidences for him actually erasing thing like space-time universe, timeline

Beerus with Power of Destruction, or Hakai was literally used as and example on Existence Erasure page, and the move was literally stated like this

In the verse it is stated, anything that is erased is become nothing

And before you talking about AP, i will quote EE page:

Existence Erasure can be included in a character's Attack Potency, depending on the circumstances. This is determined by the scope of the erasure, as well as what is being erased

So if characters can use their EE to EE structure such as Low 2-C, or Low 1-C structure then it could also be indexed as AP via EE hax

 

[StrymULTRA]

Now seriously i should not reply cause i only have 1 post perm and i spent it, but since you brought up this up

Zeno have evidences for him actually erasing thing like space-time universe, timeline

Beerus with Power of Destruction, or Hakai was literally used as and example on Existence Erasure page, and the move was literally stated like this

In the verse it is stated, anything that is erased is become nothing

And before you talking about AP, i will quote EE page:

So if characters can use their EE to EE structure such as Low 2-C, or Low 1-C structure then it could also be indexed as AP via EE hax

That does seem to make some sense to be tbf.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I'm not sure if you can disconnect the two.

I got permission from @Reiner04 to do this post.

Yes, the real question here is can we talk about history without time? Although basically history is based time for regular humans, I think might be able make a distinction between history and time in fictional verses. The fact that past events in fiction are not recorded by time does not mean that they are not recorded by the narrative or recorded as information in a BDE Type 1 character's memory. But "then if fiction does not make a distinction between history, and other related things, can we talk about history independent of concepts such as time, narrative, and knowledge?" I think not. So, whether it related concepts such as time, narrative, knowledge or not, I think we cannot assume historical erasure unless the fiction mention about historical erasure.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima this is likely gonna be much more than just applying a change to existence erasure, we’re gonna probably need a standard evaluation thread on any franchise that has existence erasure based on nuking timelines or multiverses.

Okay. That is perfectly fine with me in that case.

Also, what are the current staff conclusions here?

 

[Theglassman12]

Do we even have a consensus with what to do with existence erasure overall? I feel like we need some more to reach a consensus and then we can apply whatever edit we need to the page itself and then make an evaluation thread on whatever franchise has Historical or other forms of EE based on this assumption.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, never mind. I continued to read the rest of the posts in this thread afterwards.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Do we even have a consensus with what to do with existence erasure overall? I feel like we need some more to reach a consensus and then we can apply whatever edit we need to the page itself and then make an evaluation thread on whatever franchise has Historical or other forms of EE based on this assumption.

Just asking:

Now seriously i should not reply cause i only have 1 post perm and i spent it, but since you brought up this up

Zeno have evidences for him actually erasing thing like space-time universe, timeline

Beerus with Power of Destruction, or Hakai was literally used as and example on Existence Erasure page, and the move was literally stated like this

In the verse it is stated, anything that is erased is become nothing

Would still be enough or not? Thinking about it again, I don't think it should if the standard gets applied.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Qawsedf234 @Theglassman12 @Reiner04

So what do you think that we should do here?

 

[Reiner04]

@DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Qawsedf234 @Theglassman12 @Reiner04

So what do you think that we should do here?

Needs proper staff consensus. More staff needs to be called.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So what do you think that we should do here?

In my mind the current system more or less defaults to history being part of time. Unless the franchise in question proves otherwise, it would be a default assumption.

 

[Antvasima]

So what do you think that we should do here?

Needs proper staff consensus. More staff needs to be called.

In my mind the current system more or less defaults to history being part of time. Unless the franchise in question proves otherwise, it would be a default assumption.

@DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @GrathOfLux @Dereck03 @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist

Your help would be very appreciated here.

 

[Elizhaa]

I share Qawsedf234's thoughts.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Thermor]

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