Yeah cause neither party can come to a final conclusion on the matter, only way for this to be concluded is a Final Staff Evaluation. At this point it seems like people are just repeating the same points over and over so maybe things should die down until Staff comment.
I think that Goofy seems to make good sense here.
.....
I am sorry to say but if you agree due to that summary then his summary is actually wrongI think that Goofy seems to make good sense here.
I think that Goofy should also remain free to comment in this thread.
It falls under this :
Just like I didn't proposed that ghost ship is infinite dimensional or ghost ship beings "jumped" from a higher spatial dimension to lower one and very goofy toddler made it up, neither "incalculable" and "unfathomable to likes of Ben" are "examples" but they are in as same statement as statment of defying limits of spacetime, actual wording of statement from comic is "Incalculable dimension that defies limits of spacetime. An unfathomable universe to primitive minds such as yours (Ben's)". And Rosa has already mentioned that why it is pretty much as same as DC's Low Outerversal reasoning.
I also wanted to say that it is something similar to this
Absolutely not for you to determine.
I did not strawman anything, so your counterargument(if you can even call it that) falls under:
And
I can read that the “Ghost Ship” is proposed as Low 1-A. The point is that you claim it inquiries beyond all dimensions using “incacluable” as a means of synonyms for infinite and the like.
Ultima already disproved both High 1-B and Low 1-A with the threads gaining several pages of information that didn't change his view.Are you able to address the previous concerns of staff on the topic.
Ben 10 Cosmology: High 1-B upgrade
Introduction This thread mainly focuses on upgrading the Ben 10 cosmology to High 1-B, as a result, upgrading few characters and weapons. Premise In order to prove the Ben 10 cosmology being High 1-B, I would introduce a new Universe inside the Space Beyond that is stated to be infinite...vsbattles.com
Last I recall the statement was that they're from an incalculable dimension, not actual spatial axes since that's illogical and there's no “s” in the word dimension in the scan.
Ok I'llAre you able to address the previous concerns of staff on the topic.
Ben 10 Cosmology: High 1-B upgrade
Introduction This thread mainly focuses on upgrading the Ben 10 cosmology to High 1-B, as a result, upgrading few characters and weapons. Premise In order to prove the Ben 10 cosmology being High 1-B, I would introduce a new Universe inside the Space Beyond that is stated to be infinite...
Look, I know this isn't for commenting now, but if I'm not mistaken, the beings of the incalculable dimension have a feat, they can overload Feedback, and they also claim to be dimensionally superior beings.
I was given permission to respond to this by Firestorm. You just asserted that, due to them being potential synonyms, we can therefore infer they're the same. I countered by arguing Ben 10 distinguishes them and it's accepted on site that, in the context of Ben 10, they are to be taken as separate things unless explicitly said otherwise, and you never provided any additional reasoning besides ignoring that counter.
A bunch of yap was what I read. Making an inverse notion that such statements of “universe” and “dimension” mean sepearte things are yet to be proven within the context of the scan itself. Even if you somehow provided such a distinction it wouldn't contextually make sense since the subject of where they came from is used as universe/dimension interchangeably.
Isn't "dimensional" is one who is mentioned in scan, not dimension?
Yeah, “dimesnion” as opposed to dimensional but dimensions in terms of spatiality wouldn't even make sense in that scan.
In what way does the context of the scan "prove" that dimension here means universe? Surely you're not being so obnoxious as to think them both referring to locations must mean they're one in the same thing, as if me saying "Manhattan, New York" implies that Manhattan and New York are the same thing?
The example is a bit atrocious, but in far as Manhattan shares a location in New York then obviously the comparison is meant as a synonym. Last I recall Manhattan and New York aren't synonymous terms and granted you haven't proven that they mean different things.
No, Manhattan and New York aren't synonyms. Manhattan is located WITHIN the area which defines New York, and thus they occupy the same space, but New York extends beyond the area which defines Manhattan and thus definitionally cannot be a synonym of New York. This misunderstanding of language fundamentally shows why your argument doesn't map onto the statement itself.
If you meant to say I haven't proven that dimensions and universes aren't synonymous in Ben 10, then that's already accepted and evident in the cosmology page which dedicates an entire section to addressing specific concerns for this distinction. I can also provide some of the instances in the series where they're distinguished:
If Ben 10 goes out of its way to explain its terminology in a precise way, why would we blindly appeal to what "a lot of fictional work" define their terms as? We're not saying this statement to upscale all fiction, we're talking within a specific context.
The dimension in question exists WITHIN the universe they come from, so they occupy the same location but they're not the same thing (i.e. the Manhattan vs New York analogy).
You're repeating what I said. Your example doesn't work with the comparison as there's no distinction between “dimension” and “universe” in the particular scan.
Yeah…..that really doesn't explain anything within the scan. This inverse definition hardly matters since it can change throughout different scans and I don't see where this is pretty explicit clear without direct evidence. All I see is random points trying to justify something that doesn't help the OP anymore since the scans themselves aren't Low 1-A.
There's no specificity in the scan. You can make up this weird notion that it always means what it means as nothing more than a desperate attempt at linking empty threads.
Yeah, and where is the Low 1-A coming from? The argument being “defy the limits of space-time” is a weak evidence and not at all clear on what it means even Ultima pointed this out.
Your argument for there being no distinction is "they're both referring to the same location so they're synonyms", the counter argument is this analogy and your only response is "but in the scan there's no distinction, therefore it's not analogous". This is verbatim a circular argument.
You asked for evidence that the verse distinguishes dimension and universe, I gave them doing that in every different way, and your response isn't to provide any additional evidence for your interpretation but this blind assumption of "well maybe the language has changed for this comic".
nah
yea
Then delete your own DC upgrade. We've been through this already and you had no counter argument against it.
The analogy was horrible and not at all linked with the what I said so leave it at that.
More than likely it is since using “examples” of what was said before hardly counts if its not directly stated to be case. You're drawing too much emphasis on differing something in the context of others' statements rather than the actual scan which already has little to interpret.
We progress beyond this childish antic. Hardly strengthen your already weak counter rebuttal.
Two different verses with many differences in context of setting and one was explained explicitly clear while this thread in particular is a rinse and repeat of a previous which didn't progress beyond anything.
You haven't demonstrated how at all, but I can debunk your notion without an analogy. Two things can refer to the same location without being one in the same thing as the relation between the location and reference may differ.
Earlier in the conversation I literally provided statements from the comic itself which relate "dimension" to spatial measurements, such as them reiterating the claim but with terms like "breadth" (a spatial axis) and overall scale. Further, this argument that context can be ignored because "well maybe the comic is breaking away from the context of the franchise it's adapting" is so out there that it's insane to me you'd make this leap without any evidence backing.
You called my argument "weird" as a rebuttal and I'm "childish" for not considering that substantive? We did move on from it, you had nothing to add and simply failed to give any sort of argument in response, the take away is that you're simply wrong.
Yet when I debunked that you had no counter-argument. Go back to my message and respond to the points there if you want to drag back up old arguments, I'm not repeating myself to you. Have more respect for others.
I agree with this point, though I don't think it means anything related to the argument being made (especially given that I'm more in favour of it being considered High 1-B
I could go into why I don't think them fitting into the dimension of Ben 10 or not blowing up Earth isn't an anti-feat (i.e. downsizing being Ben 10's motif with higher dimensional beings), but we generally don't give things like this the final say anyway considered DC != AP.
The same Feedback who can absorb the big bang without any issue. The problem?
The weapon was the Omnitrix, something which can completely destroy Annihilarrg universes and is built by someone who's intellect extends beyond the multiverse which contains their own universe. Further, them wanting to steal something doesn't mean they think it's greater than themselves, they say they're going from universe to universe stealing the greatest weaponry - they match the profile of collectors like Collectimus.
I've also explained why Ben has ways to deal with beings like this and I haven't even brought up Alien X yet...
Them being reduced or otherwise made to take a lesser physical avatar is not something that's ever stated about these beings, so Occam's razor...
Feedback lost control because it's a different type of energy, not too much energy.
They're after the plans.
They also say that they can't steal the plans because Ben has them. If they were these transcendental beings then they'd snap their fingers, the plans would be in their hands and they'd be on their cosmic way.
Any proof they know about Alien X or that they know the Omnitrix is capable of to that degree? Any source that, that is the reason they're afraid to begin with?
It doesn't need to be if it's consistent with similar situations and indicated through context. Idk how Occam's razor is applicable here either.
Why would being higher dimensional entail they'd be able to traverse universes without the use of technology?
No where in this statement is Ben prescribing cause, nor is this relevant to the broader point that you can't argue Feedback managing to absorb some of their technologies energy to be some kind of anti-feat for them. Feedback's absorption has no upper limit, we've seen it absorb higher dimensional energy outputs, so your argument that they couldn't possibly be higher dimensional because Feedback absorbed some of their ships power supply doesn't follow.
The Omnitrix repairs any injury done to Ben during de-transformation, so I'd expect there to be no lasting damage on him. You're also taking this as some huge anti-feat; Feedback subtracted an unknown fraction of power from the ships energy supply, absorbed a fraction from the fraction, the remaining fraction when went off and knocked out a character that's currently accepted as multi-solar system level.... Also, why would the ships energy even be of concern to the power of the beings who made it? It's a transportation vessel, not an offensive weapon.
I wonder what piece of technology Ben 10 would be in possession of that they'd be interested in... I wonder what piece of technology is the strongest thing in Ben's universe... Like it's very obvious what piece of technology they're after, we don't need to debate this point lmfao. Even if you want to speculate "well maybe Ben got this new technology off-screen that's now the true strongest thing in the dimension but isn't the Omnitrix" then it'll upscale from the Omnitrix.
That would be a hax ability completely out the scope of their size. Characters not having spatial displacement hax isn't a refute to them being higher dimensional beings.
Idk if you're using a different site that has more pages, but this panel isn't from the Ghost Ship comic and they're explicitly following Ben. Prior to the Ghost Ship comic, ik previous Ben 10 comics had them as background aliens in a Halloween comic with dialogue and obviously repurposed their design so I wonder if you're using that one. If you can link your sources that'll be appreciated. Either way, they could obviously be mistaken for what constitutes the best weapon in the universe, they could not want to be seen or make a scene, or their down-sized forms could explain their need for passivity, etc., your conclusion here doesn't follow from the premises as there's numerous possible conclusions that could be made.
We don't know what they know. You're inferring that them being scared of Ben must mean they're weaker than his basic aliens, I'm saying Ben has capabilities far beyond that which also could be what they're scared of. You can't play a sceptics game when your conclusion is already being worked from an assumption of ignorance; if you want to argue solely from what we know then we'd say "we don't know why they're hesitant to fight Ben, we don't know what they know or think they know, therefore we cannot infer a conclusion".
I've already addressed anti-feats like these as them being downsized.
... Yes. It does. We don't just assume "Well, I've decided they're weaker avatars and don't need any statements, evidence or proof because I've decided this is the cut off mark."
Why DO these entities require 3-D tech?
Yes, he does, he flat out states;
This is sophistry.
If we assumed your conclusion is the correct one, the ship, the Universe and the Planet should be ashes.
The snide comments aren't really masking the fact that they aren't after Ben, they were after someone else.
It refutes them being unable to steal from a god damn CHICKEN.
Their requirement for passivity would counter the angle that they're Higher dimensional beings.
That's all I need to know.
You just made up headcanon, threw it at me and when I asked for a source, you just declare "I dunno" and think to then say I'm making assumption of ignorance?
You still have yet to prove they're downsized without having circular logic.
Notice how this isn't what I said at all? I said how this is how higher dimensional travel works in Ben 10; we're shown with the Contumelia that their 5th dimensional forms are beyond the perception of Ben and Rook and thus they manifest themselves as forms they can comprehend, and when the Cosmic Mom arrives on Earth she also is comparable in size to Ben's 3-dimensional form after travelling from a higher plane. Then we find this species who, even if you want to reject H1-B or L1-A, are bare minimum higher dimensional entities via other statements quoted in the thread yet they are also comparable in size.
Dimensional travel is separate from Higher-Dimensional Physiology; so Celestialsapiens and Dagon may have both but that doesn't mean having one entails they have the other.
My argument is that the body of evidence can only be explained through avatar physiology and that this is consistent with every other relevant instance of this in Ben 10, therefore we can make the inference that they possess avatar physiology. Your argument is simply "similar characters have this hax, therefore they must have this hax" - that isn't a valid argument and is instead a hasty generalisation fallacy, notice the difference?
I never denied that it's a unique form of energy, I denied your assertion that his absorption failed solely on the basis that it's unique as Ben never makes a causal claim but a descriptive one.
Fraction = a part of a whole or any number of equal parts
We see him absorb it and his body is covered in electricity and then even during the explosion his body still has those bolts of electricity coating his skin showing it wasn't fully expelled from him - read your own panels.
Do you have any evidence that the explosion would kill or harm the Omega species?
Per your own standards, that explosion would've yielded at least multi-solar system levels of energy - 2e+57 joules. Releasing that much energy would not only turn the Earth into ash but also the entire surrounding solar system and others surrounding it... yet it doesn't. So by your own standards the destructive capacity of a blast cannot be used to contradict an already substantiated energy yield estimate. Further, no one is arguing this energy blast is L1-A.
No where was I being "snide" with you, in the Ghost Ship comic they explicitly are going after Ben in pursuit for the dimensions greatest weapon. You showed a panel that's not in the comic (or at least not in the copy I have) so I asked for a source, and instead of providing it you just say "wow so you're mistaken then? lololol" If you're going to be this bad faith then idek why you're here, who even gave you permission to speak in this thread?
No, it wouldn't, because there are many other explanations for why they may favour passivity that are all just as likely (if not more). Someone being a pacifist doesn't mean they're weak.
You've made this allegation like 3 times now, would love an actual example.
My point was that if you want to argue that we don't know and cannot speculate on what they know then we don't know the basis for the judgements and thus cannot derive any conclusion from what their judgements may or may not be based upon. This isn't "waffle" and stop being rude.
Yes. You are assuming that the omega species are ignorant of Ben's capabilities to infer that them being scared of a teenage boy is therefore an anti-feat, when you also admitted that we don't actually know if they are ignorant or not. Therefore, your conclusion is founded on an assumption of ignorance, and i'm saying instead of assuming what they may or may not know we should just accept that we don't know the basis for their judgement and thus not make inferences based on what it may or may not be.
Yet again strawmanning my position. Oddly enough, at the start of this message your characterised my argument as "I believe this on the basis that it's consistent with my conclusion", then you characterised it as "I believe this on the basis that other relevant instances maintain it to be true", and now you've characterised it as "I believe this to be true because there's no evidence to say otherwise". So not only have you been strawmanning me, but every time you do so you change the strawman
how is this even possible?So this isn't my argument. My argument follows from the inference rule of Modus Tollens:You still have yet to prove they're downsized without having circular logic.
Here, I'll show you, in Paint no less.
More unnecessary toxicity
More unnecessary toxicity
Ya'll are the one's repeatedly strawmanning and refusing to respond to argument and resorting to personal attacks, the only one's stone-walling are the two of you.
This is my final response to you as what I said did not need or warrant a response from you about your petty sentiments. Last I recall I was never malicious in any of form, but I had pointed out the many snarky comments you've made and the unwarranted tone that you keep conveying.
You accused us of "stone-walling" when it was you who on several occasions would respond to counter arguments by just saying "what a bunch of yap", in your last message to me you remarked that I was "childish" yet now you say "I was never malicious in any of form"? What snarky comments have I made? What have I said that's "unwarranted"?
Your last response to me was you calling me a child. Yet me accusing you of personal attacks is me "gaslighting" you?
"I'll see to it that you don't respond" what exactly are you implying here?
I didn't really do anything other than firmly and directly argue for my points without needing to randomly make snarky comments or use AI to make the arguments. I couldn't even focus on some of his points because they weren't targeted at responding to me, but rather some weird way of explaining “A and B” that doesn't at all relate to the topic
Me when I see an extrapolation.
Let me explain this to you, so you understand.
Ignoring the other parts because it doesn't actually address the point but this one touches closer.
So;
That's an obvious form of deceptive argumentation.
You mean that it entered his body? Obviously.
The ship exploding? Yeah, they got onto Ben's ship to escape the explosion and head to Earth. Ben 10 even says so after having the energy explode in his face.
Oops.
This is the closest you've come to an actual argument and then it's made hilarious because it reveals you once again haven't read the comic.
Don't even try and play this game with me.
JUDGE JUDGE! HE DID THE THING!
Explanations is a nice word to use in place of "assumptions" or "headcanon" or "make believe"
...
I don't. I don't want to argue with you over fan fiction or head canon or whatever else you've chosen to put in the parts that we don't know. Because it's entirely outside the scope of the thread.
That's not the argument from ignorance.
I'm just that sick I guess.
"This isn't my argument. Here's my argument" <Shows circular logic anyway>
Yes, yes, we're the evil guys with evil agenda and we're totally here just to spite you, all our arguments that are contrary to yours are out of spite, not for any other reason.
The basis for Low 1-A is incredibly weak and as I pointed out here (my response below) it doesn't hold water. We've been arguing back and forth, and so has Goofy on them even being Higher dimensional but Rosa refuses to consider it anything other than Higher dimensions. He's obviously not going to budge.What do you think should be done here Udlmaster? And please provide an explanation in conjunction.
