History as a Fundamental Aspect: we've gone too far

[StrymULTRA]

Permission given by @Antvasima in On-Site DMs.

Introduction

Hello. I have noticed in several pages (mainly Dragon Ball ones like Beerus) that they have "History" as listed in the potency of their Existence Erasure, by simply being able to erase space-time continuums with different paths.

I personally have a problem with this, as it clashes with this Wiki's treatment of other Fundamental Aspects, which generate genuine double standards, and even clashes with how fiction even potrays this.

The way to obtain Historical Erasure is too loose

Basically, a lot of characters here got History EE by simply erasing timelines with different histories. Some examples:

Beerus: With the Power of Destruction, a God of Destruction can erase everything from existence, from living beings, souls, spirits to physical objects, energy attacks. Can erase beings like Dr. Mashirito, and likely even Arale Norimaki, both of whom resisted narrative existence erasure Power of Destruction also capable of destroying universes along with their individual history, including multiple space-time continuums

Zeno: Can erase everything includes peoples, objects, space-time universes. Can even erase Gods of Destruction, who can resist their own Power of Destruction, and abstract entities

• Nonexistence Erasure (Nature Type 1; Aspect Types 2 & 5 [Other: Concepts & History]; Zen'ō is able to erase the entirety of the multiverse, which includes the World of Void, a realm of eternal nothingness devoid of time and space, the <Subspace> which is a dimensional world devoid of the concepts of time and space)

Alien X: Alien X could one day destroy all of existence, along with their individual history, including multiple space-time continuums. Should be superior to the Chrono Navigator, a device capable of destroying all of existence, which includes time and causality, as Servantis implied Alien X being omnipotent in that aspect, which has been supported by Professor Paradox previously, who called him omnipotent as well

• Nonexistence Erasure (Nature Type 1, Aspects 1 & 5 [Other: Laws, Life-Energy, Physics & History]; Alien X could one day destroy all of existence including the <White Void> which is a dimension of nothingness and devoid of space-time and mana, <Mana> which is a energy devoid of any laws

Chara: Erased the entirety of "Undertale", destroying the game world alongside all of its files, timelines and histories, with attempts to reverse the damage through messing with said files being ineffective. Should be comparable to Frisk and restored the entire game world with possibly a TRUE RESET

• Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1, Aspect Types 1, 4 and 5 [History and Space-Time]. Implied to still be in a nonexistent state even after getting enough DETERMINATION to being able to interact with the world from their own again, as they talked as the void left after the destruction of the game, with later on saying that their human soul wasn't actually theirs, but "yours")

I think there are more than these 4, but the issue is clear. This thing is given to literally everything that uses EE on anything with multiple timelines with different histories.

This might seem intuitive on surface, but if one looks deeper, they'll see a problem: It's something that comes for free for literally every Tier 2/1 verse that erases a cosmology with multiple timelines that have taken different events.

Why is this a problem?

The reason why this is problematic is because fiction most of the time straight up ignores the idea that if a timeline gets erased, then the ones who survived its physical destruction actually shouldn't because they'd get erased as a side effect of their past being destroyed. One of the most infamous examples is Dragon Ball Super as mentioned above, where Future Trunks and Future Mai, despite being mortals, are perfectly fine despite Zeno erasing their timeline to the point that the Time Ring representing said timeline gets erased (and this happens in both the Manga and the Anime, mind you). Also because, by History it's usually meant the sequence of events in a timeline: if that gets altered, you receive the same retroactively as a result, that's an important thing.

Plus, it's a double standard, because no verse gets for granted neither Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation, nor Type 2 Information Manipulation, despite these being clearly part of the fabric of the universe (unless evidence makes it clear that these characters indeed have affected these):

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

2. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. The ability can come on many levels of potency. The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

The reason is because, as for everything else, we need explicit evidence of these Fundamental Aspects to also being affected when a reality is destroyed, yet, for History, we magically assume that anytime a character destroys a reality in a verse that happens to outline that in the alternate timelines different events happen, then that Aspect is destroyed, when in reality, it's a side effect for reality being physically destroyed, so do the Concepts and Information within it as a result, not because of the characters specifically targetting them.

Heck, we do not give Type 1 Acausality to people who destroy timelines and are still fine despite their past being destroyed, right because of fiction generally not considering the actual implication of destroying a timeline besides "big boom", Dimentio for example had it removed for this reason, but for this Wiki, at the same time, it grants to almost everything that's Tier 2 or 1 the ability to nuke everything on a Fundamental Level despite having no explicit evidence of this being affected, but pure guesswork. Heck, timelines having different events isn't because of "History" being different, it's just something that happens all the time in fiction due to the natural development of people taking different choices, and not because of some greater basis of reality being altered or similar.

Not to mention that History for some reason is the only Fundamental Aspect that does not have a page, and this generated generally a large amount of confusion among users, as Plot, Type 2 Info, and Concept have all its own page, same for in-verse Fundamental Aspects that are exclusive to these verses. But History? Most of the time manipulating that is granted only Causality or Fate Manipulation at most, but these aren't treated as a fundamental aspect, which clearly makes History a special case among these, and a magnet of unfair treatment.

How to fix?

Spoiler: This idea seems to be rejected, damn

Let me introduce an unexpected ally here: Plot Manipulation.

But why? Some years ago it was a pretty controversial idea to just nuke Plot Manipulation and make it just a mix of 4th Wall Break, Reality Warping and Fate Manipulation, and I myself had some problems to make a real difference between the two.

However, if we look at the differences between Fate and Plot by their definitions, we notice that there's not that much of a difference between them:

Fate: a power that some people believe causes and controls all events, so that you cannot change or control the way things will happen

Plot: the story of a book, film, play, etc / a secret plan made by several people to do something that is wrong, harmful, or not legal, especially to do damage to a person or a government

As even our Plot Manipulation page says, "a character that is lucky or fated to win (eg. a character recognized to be the protagonist) would only get this power if their luck or destiny is actively described as altering the plot. Otherwise it would simply be Supernatural Luck or Fate Manipulation", because these powers are very, very similar, just that Plot, unlike Fate, can also actively warp reality due to its metafictional nature, thus being able to add literally anything to the events as it's just a fictional thing, while Fate only can change the events and not actively warp reality to fit these events, no matter how nonsensical those are.

My idea is, to avoid confusions regarding this power, and give the aspect of History an actual page, to merge Plot and Fate Manipulation in a single page, called "History Manipulation".

1st: why? The definition of history is the following: past events considered together, especially events of a particular period, country, or subject

2nd: fictional universes usually consider the plot to be the very history of their world (Doki Doki Literature Club, JORGE JOESTAR or The Neverending Story being some of the most blatant examples), and Plot and Fate in general are considered to be both the history of these worlds, so a "History Manipulation" Page would have these two types to make it clear:

• Type 1: Fate Manipulation
• Type 2: Plot Manipulation

I did not make a page for it yet, but I will if this gets accepted and no one does it in the meantime. It'll clear confusion and recognize that these powers are indeed similar and base themselves on the same concept, while acting fundamentally different. We do the same for Information Manipulation after all, where we have 2 types, one for simply altering the known information that's known to the general public, and other for altering the information that composes reality. This shouldn't be a problem either, as it's basing on a precedent we have for this.

It'll also make a clearer definition for what History is, and actually treat it as a Fundamental Aspect that actually exist and isn't just there to wank characters that just happen to erase Tier 2 things.

Regarding stuff that are currently with some NEP off just lacking Space-Time (ex. White Space from Ben 10 or DBH Demon Realm), then that NEP isn't NEP but just Type 1 BDE.

If this passes, idk if to make a thread for each individual verse that's being affected, or make a big thread to check every verse that fits in the new History Manipulation page, so that they get evalutated all at once.

Instead, for simply erasing timelines and get History Erasure (alongside eventual NEP with Type 5 Aspect), I think just revising each individual verse is enough as they're far less.

Edit: Apprently this idea is rejected, so we're discussing new ideas atm.

AS THIS IS MUCH PROBABLY A CONTROVERSIAL REVISION, REMINDER THAT THIS IS STAFF-ONLY, AND THAT YOU HAVE TO GET STAFF PERMISSION TO COMMENT HERE UNLESS YOU'RE ONE.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @GrathOfLux @Dereck03 @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist

What do you think about this?

 

[Flashlight237]

I am for the idea of a history manipulation. Thing is, there's already issues I'd like to point out.

The thing about fate is it revolves around what WILL be; the future if you will. History is fundamentally about what already happened. You know, the past. Calling fate history is like calling Ragnarok a thing of the past when it is clearly written as a myth about what will happen in the future.

The definition of history is a systemic study of the past; you can't seriously be telling me fate, or anything involving the future, had anything to do with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History

Also, history is not necessarily plot. On a base level, history is essentially what happened in the past whereas plot is what happens in a story. History is not necessarily a story; sure, the winners write the books, but at the same time, given there are so many firsthand accounts written of what it was like back when the American Civil War was a thing or even individual battles, I hardly classify history as a story, let alone one with plot. If anything, history is more like a series/compilation of explanations.

For a more recent example, I kicked a trash can on 11:15 AM today. That's not a story or a plot; I just randomly kicked a trash can because I'm bored. Plot involves a level of intent that my kicking of a trash can doesn't necessarily have. I'm not writing out a plot or setting a scene; I just felt like jotting down the fact that I kicked a trash can onto a forum. Facts and stories are different things, and history involves facts. Me kicking a trash can is a fact; me writing a fantastical account about me kicking the trash can is a story with a plot. See the difference?

As such, as someone whose favorite subject in school is history, I call malarkey on any notion that history is in any way plot (fictional) or fate (future stuff).

 

[StrymULTRA]

I am for the idea of a history manipulation. Thing is, there's already issues I'd like to point out.

The thing about fate is it revolves around what WILL be; the future if you will. History is fundamentally about what already happened. You know, the past. Calling fate history is like calling Ragnarok a thing of the past when it is clearly written as a myth about what will happen in the future.

The definition of history is a systemic study of the past; you can't seriously be telling me fate, or anything involving the future, had anything to do with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History

This is a fair point. It's just that I had this as an idea because History is the only Fundamental Aspect of one's being that does not have a page yet. Besides, something that struck me is that History and Plot/Narrative are for some reason treated different aspects on this Wiki, when by mechanics they're literally the exact same thing.

I tried to make a way to combine the two in a reasonable way, but I am myself unsure, and if you have other ways to fix the issue (which is the main problem), I'd be eager to listen.

Also, history is not necessarily plot. On a base level, history is essentially what happened in the past whereas plot is what happens in a story. History is not necessarily a story; sure, the winners write the books, but at the same time, given there are so many firsthand accounts written of what it was like back when the American Civil War was a thing or even individual battles, I hardly classify history as a story, let alone one with plot. If anything, history is more like a series/compilation of explanations.

For a more recent example, I kicked a trash can on 11:15 AM today. That's not a story or a plot; I just randomly kicked a trash can because I'm bored. Plot involves a level of intent that my kicking of a trash can doesn't necessarily have. I'm not writing out a plot or setting a scene; I just felt like jotting down the fact that I kicked a trash can onto a forum. Facts and stories are different things, and history involves facts. Me kicking a trash can is a fact; me writing a fantastical account about me kicking the trash can is a story with a plot. See the difference?

I think you've missed the point: fictional worlds do indeed treat Plot as their own history. It's not something that relies entirely on "lol I alter fictional things" (as otherwise Plot Manip will be given to only people who manipulate stuff that for them is fictional).

Regardless, if you have other words that fit instead of "History", then I'm open to suggestions.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I strongly disagree with the notion that fate, history and plot are the same thing. They are nothing alike, as far as I am concerned and, consequently, should definitely not be fused into one page.
Just because manipulation of different things can have similar effects, doesn't make them the same things.

Plot is a metafictional description (and definition) of reality.
History is the aspect of a thing's past.
Fate is a vague thing, typically either a restriction of what probability or causality can do, which in turn are of cause unlike plot and history.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I strongly disagree with the notion that fate, history and plot are the same thing. They are nothing alike, as far as I am concerned and, consequently, should definitely not be fused into one page.
Just because manipulation of different things can have similar effects, doesn't make them the same things.

Plot is a metafictional description (and definition) of reality.
History is the aspect of a thing's past.
Fate is a vague thing, typically either a restriction of what probability or causality can do, which in turn are of cause unlike plot and history.

Sure but... how do we handle the issue I've told otherwise?

You're kinda... missing the point.

 

[DontTalkDT]

A few things:
First, I see no contradiction to the treatment of information and concept type 2 here. These are things that exist as long as the particulars exist. I.e. If you erase a universe and someone survives, their type 2 concepts also still exist. It doesn't die with the universe. Similar thing with information.
Same wouldn't apply to history, as the history of the person actually ceases existing.

Generally, as long as a character erases their own timeline (erasing their own past) they actually should get Type 1 acausality as far as I am concerned.

I don't think destroying history can be considered a "side effect" of destroying a timeline, unless a verse makes an actual difference between 'history' and 'past'. (Touhou and Kawakami-verse arguably do that.)
In that sense, I don't mind it being considered as part of what these characters get and see no real problems with it. Like, if you survive timeline destruction via nonexistence (as opposed to via acausality), I don't think there is a problem if you have the history type. Isn't gonna do anything to let you survive anything but literally the thing you have the feat for, though.
Characters getting abilities that accurately reflect their feats is no problem in my book.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm unsure how to probably fix it; but for the most part. I feel like it's mainly an issue with writers not knowing consistency. But at the same time; some characters survive their past selves being destroyed via "Inflationary multiverse theory" where messing up a timeline's past simply creates alternate timelines instead of rewriting any individual timelines. Likewise, destroying timelines or histories also gives birth to more timelines.

 

[StrymULTRA]

First, I see no contradiction to the treatment of information and concept type 2 here. These are things that exist as long as the particulars exist. I.e. If you erase a universe and someone survives, their type 2 concepts also still exist. It doesn't de with the universe. Similar thing with information.
Same wouldn't apply to history, as the history of the person actually ceases existing.

Generally, as long as a character erases their own timeline (erasing their own past) they actually should get Type 1 acausality as far as I am concerned.

The problem here is that, just how I have explained in the DBS case, this implication is generally ignored, as characters who have no business being immune to paradoxes somehow just survive it.

I don't think destroying history can be considered a "side effect" of destroying a timeline, unless a verse makes an actual difference between 'history' and 'past'. Touhou and Kawakami-verse arguably do that.
In that sense, I don't mind it being considered as part of what these characters get and see no real problems with it. Like, if you survive timeline destruction via nonexistence (as opposed to via acausality), I don't think there is a problem if you have the history type. Isn't gonna do anything to let you survive anything but literally the thing you have the feat for, though.

My idea would be to allow this to only verses that explicitly make a deal out of this, because, as said above, Dragon Ball Super has this off just destroying timelines with different paths, which isn't really right in my view.

Characters getting abilities that accurately reflect their feats is no problem in my book.

Here would be more a thing of verse mechanics than feats at this point.

 

[Theglassman12]

I'll just say that claiming plot and fate hax are the same couldn't be further from the truth. There's a big difference between dictating someone's fate and literally change entire scripts or storylines to where someone gets all the screentime in a show akin to rick and morty with what Protago Nick can do. This is no different than saying that probability manipulation and reality warping should just be the same ability just cause they share similar kinds of effects despite the applications of both being vastly different.

If I were to give an alternative solution here given the issues with history erasure, we can just have the standards for historical erasure be more explicit on people being able to target one's history or their own timeline rather than generalizing a timeline or multiversal destruction to automatically grant them said powers in the first place.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'll just say that claiming plot and fate hax are the same couldn't be further from the truth. There's a big difference between dictating someone's fate and literally change entire scripts or storylines to where someone gets all the screentime in a show akin to rick and morty with what Protago Nick can do. This is no different than saying that probability manipulation and reality warping should just be the same ability just cause they share similar kinds of effects despite the applications of both being vastly different.

Sure. I am not that strong on it.

If I were to give an alternative solution here given the issues with history erasure, we can just have the standards for historical erasure be more explicit on people being able to target one's history or their own timeline rather than generalizing a timeline or multiversal destruction to automatically grant them said powers in the first place.

That'd be fine, yeah.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree that the issue the OP suggests is an issue. We too easily accept erasure of history when in reality the feats are often of a much more straightforward nature. I would agree with striking this from those verses where this is deemed to be the case.

I disagree with the idea of "History Manipulation" being the solution. In 2022 I agreed with the notion of deleting Plot Manip and merging it with Fate Manip, because I do think they are functionally the same thing but in different contexts (and they are!), but throwing History into the mix confuses the purpose of either ability to be in relation to time, simply because in this instance they can be perceived to be. History is what was, Fate is what will be. I don't think we stand much to gain by creating this new ability, it only seems to make sense when approached from this one avenue of thought.

Open to hearing other solutions.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok so I've hid away the History Manipulation thing.

I agree that the issue the OP suggests is an issue. We too easily accept erasure of history when in reality the feats are often of a much more straightforward nature. I would agree with striking this from those verses where this is deemed to be the case.

Open to hearing other solutions.

As I said above, a way can be that the verse mechanics make it clear that by altering/erasing one's past, the target suffers in the present/future, and logically, erasing the timeline would retroactively kill them because of them no longer a past from where they originate from.

A common example is having parts of the narrative being on how time travel impacts the present, and that altering it would erase the people of the present because of their origin being compromised, thus being incompatible with the current state of the events.

 

[Theglassman12]

We could try to elaborate on the existence erasure page on what would even qualify for history/timeline erasure and explain how some general statement of destroying timelines or multiverses wouldn’t be enough for that high end of an ability.

 

[StrymULTRA]

We could try to elaborate on the existence erasure page on what would even qualify for history/timeline erasure and explain how some general statement of destroying timelines or multiverses wouldn’t be enough for that high end of an ability.

I did think of that, but regarding how one would interpret recovering from a simple timeline nuke, it shouldn't be assumed to be High-Godly either.

Though specifying on the EE page like we do for other abilities on Type 3 concept seems to be the best option, yes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Actually, I think that History in itself is more tied to Causality Manipulation, as the ability is usually attributed to altering past events to affect the present (see Keine Kamishiwara, Lu Guang or the Time Scroll), so I think that characters who specifically can target one's history in their erasure should also have it on their profiles, similar to how people who can destroy Concepts/Information have that in their profile.

A way can be to explain in the Causality Manipulation page how the power can be used to also alter events of the past to manipulate the present, and why erasing a timeline/multiverse shouldn't automatically grant the ability unless the verse is clear about history being deleted too.

We could try to elaborate on the existence erasure page on what would even qualify for history/timeline erasure and explain how some general statement of destroying timelines or multiverses wouldn’t be enough for that high end of an ability.

Open to hearing other solutions.

What ya think?

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Mr. Bambu

Can the two of you try to reach an agreement and solution here please?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't think DT and I disagree, currently.

I don't think destroying history can be considered a "side effect" of destroying a timeline, unless a verse makes an actual difference between 'history' and 'past'. (Touhou and Kawakami-verse arguably do that.)

This seems to imply that DT agrees that destroying a timeline shouldn't count for destroying the history of said timeline by default (that is to say, count as existence erasure on a historical level). I also agree with that. The issue with the thread, then, is what do we actually do about that in terms of policy, where does it go, etc.

I think the proposals of the thread may be too grand. A specific note on our Existence Erasure page pointing out that this is not fundamentally the case could be made. I tend to be bad at writing up notes like that, but I think something as simple as the following would suffice:

Our wiki notes a distinction between the destruction or erasure of a universe and the erasure of that universe's history, such that destroying a universe does not destroy that universe's history and as such would not necessarily erase any characters from the given universe.

Obviously subject to improvements to get the point across better.

While what the OP talks about is not an official element of our EE page, a CRT may then be necessary to note this in the examples listed in the OP, as well as any others where historical erasure is applied in a slapdash way. This may be all that is necessary to do here. Hell, a CRT may not even be necessary- with the standards changed to explicitly say one way or the other how it works, the previous presumptive way it works would just be invalidated. Other verses claiming this or that could just be directed to the page, where it says they are wrong.

In any case, I don't think "History Manipulation" is a beneficial addition to the wiki.

 

[StrymULTRA]

While what the OP talks about is not an official element of our EE page, a CRT may then be necessary to note this in the examples listed in the OP, as well as any others where historical erasure is applied in a slapdash way. This may be all that is necessary to do here. Hell, a CRT may not even be necessary- with the standards changed to explicitly say one way or the other how it works, the previous presumptive way it works would just be invalidated. Other verses claiming this or that could just be directed to the page, where it says they are wrong.

Actually, I think that History in itself is more tied to Causality Manipulation, as the ability is usually attributed to altering past events to affect the present (see Keine Kamishiwara, Lu Guang or the Time Scroll), so I think that characters who specifically can target one's history in their erasure should also have it on their profiles, similar to how people who can destroy Concepts/Information have that in their profile.

A way can be to explain in the Causality Manipulation page how the power can be used to also alter events of the past to manipulate the present, and why erasing a timeline/multiverse shouldn't automatically grant the ability unless the verse is clear about history being deleted too.


What ya think?

I literally called you on this, any opinion?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Bambu's suggested solutions here seem very reasonable.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Y'all are ignoring my new proposition. It's very discouraging to be walked on without being bothered to look at my alternative suggestion.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Let's wait to see what DontTalk and Bambu think.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I literally called you on this, any opinion?

I just don't see how that solves anything, really? If a note is going to be added, it ought to be to Existence Erasure, not Causality Manipulation. Like. Again, I agree that history is related to causality in the broad strokes, but the specific change you're wanting to make doesn't seem substantive, hence my saying as much.

Still, in your opinion, why is it better to give Causality Manipulation to characters who erase the history of a universe, rather than making a note that EEing a universe is not inherently erasure of everything's history from that universe?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I just don't see how that solves anything, really? If a note is going to be added, it ought to be to Existence Erasure, not Causality Manipulation. Like. Again, I agree that history is related to causality in the broad strokes, but the specific change you're wanting to make doesn't seem substantive, hence my saying as much.

Still, in your opinion, why is it better to give Causality Manipulation to characters who erase the history of a universe, rather than making a note that EEing a universe is not inherently erasure of everything's history from that universe?

Three reasons:

1. We relate each fundamental aspect to a hax on this wiki, like Concept to Conceptual Manipulation, Narrative to Plot Manipulation, etc. Doing so with History and Causality would make it more consistent and give a clear idea of what is History related to in terms of hax.
2. We do give to characters who erase Concepts/Information the hax of Conceptual/Information Manipulation, and not just EE, again, this would make stuff consistent with how this wiki types things.
3. You're strawmanning me, I am suggesting to also do your idea, but on Causality Manipulation rather than Existence Erasure, not to ditch entirely your idea of clarifying that erasing a timeline not inherently meaning to erase history unless specified by the verse.

 

[Antvasima]

I still agree with Bambu here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You're strawmanning me, I am suggesting to also do your idea, but on Causality Manipulation rather than Existence Erasure, not to ditch entirely your idea of clarifying that erasing a timeline not inherently meaning to erase history unless specified by the verse.

You literally did not suggest doing that. The closest you came was with Glass' idea of using the EE page to elaborate on things, but you shot down his idea. Just to avoid unnecessary agitation, please don't throw around random nonsense accusations like "strawmanning" outside of the versus thread thunderdomes, please.

• We relate each fundamental aspect to a hax on this wiki, like Concept to Conceptual Manipulation, Narrative to Plot Manipulation, etc. Doing so with History and Causality would make it more consistent and give a clear idea of what is History related to in terms of hax.
• We do give to characters who erase Concepts/Information the hax of Conceptual/Information Manipulation, and not just EE, again, this would make stuff consistent with how this wiki types things.

As for the actual qualities you have suggested, the first isn't really a deliberate design choice on our behalf, I believe. History is related to many abilities on our site, at least in general. Too broad to apply it solely to one, maybe. It isn't identical to concepts being related to concept manipulation or plot being related to plot manipulation.

On the second one... that would be because we have powers existent that already represent those things. History as its own ability has been shot down, and I don't think tying it foundationally to causality manipulation is a good idea. I think it limits us more than it helps us. If the ability displays the ability to disrupt causality, then we should give it causality manipulation. If it doesn't, then we shouldn't.

 

[StrymULTRA]

As for the actual qualities you have suggested, the first isn't really a deliberate design choice on our behalf, I believe. History is related to many abilities on our site, at least in general. Too broad to apply it solely to one, maybe. It isn't identical to concepts being related to concept manipulation or plot being related to plot manipulation.

I do not remember which other ones, because in the examples I linked, manipulating history is attributed to only Causality Manipulation.

On the second one... that would be because we have powers existent that already represent those things. History as its own ability has been shot down, and I don't think tying it foundationally to causality manipulation is a good idea. I think it limits us more than it helps us. If the ability displays the ability to disrupt causality, then we should give it causality manipulation. If it doesn't, then we shouldn't.

TBF I do think that erasing one's birth to kill them in the present is such, because it's the same as altering the cause to change the effect.

I am not feeling too strongly on this, but I am merely using how the Wiki currently does things regarding manipulating history.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I do not remember which other ones, because in the examples I linked, manipulating history is attributed to only Causality Manipulation.

For starters, you yourself have suggested it was linked to fate and plot manipulation. It is also related to time.

TBF I do think that erasing one's birth to kill them in the present is such, because it's the same as altering the cause to change the effect.

I am not feeling too strongly on this, but I am merely using how the Wiki currently does things regarding manipulating history.

I just don't think we need to hand out an ability if it isn't what is shown. Like yeah. Changing causality to do something is causality manipulation. But it is conceivable that altering history isn't going to interface with that, I think, or at least I'd like a fairly compelling argument showing that they are coterminous.

 

[StrymULTRA]

For starters, you yourself have suggested it was linked to fate and plot manipulation. It is also related to time.

Because I didn't know it was attributed to Causality instead here. My bad on that.

But it is conceivable that altering history isn't going to interface with that, I think, or at least I'd like a fairly compelling argument showing that they are coterminous.

If you wanna argue that the characters I've mentioned shouldn't have Causality Manipulation, then I suppose we can affect them as well, given this thread is indeed about changing standards, doesn't it?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If you wanna argue that the characters I've mentioned shouldn't have Causality Manipulation, then I suppose we can affect them as well, given this thread is indeed about changing standards, doesn't it?

It may be that my neurons have stopped cooperating, but could I ask you to clarify what you mean by this?

 

[StrymULTRA]

It may be that my neurons have stopped cooperating, but could I ask you to clarify what you mean by this?

Actually, I think that History in itself is more tied to Causality Manipulation, as the ability is usually attributed to altering past events to affect the present (see Keine Kamishiwara, Lu Guang or the Time Scroll)

I mean that, these 3 have the ability to alter History exclusively tied to Causality Manipulation and not other abilities.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Causality Manipulation requires that one manipulate the relationship between cause and effect somehow. In this case, you seem to posit that erasing the past (History) should count as a form of Causality Manipulation in the event that it then causes characters to disappear, due to their historical framework or whatever no longer existing, presumably because it would then be justified as "now they never existed to begin with". I don't like that as the standard, baseline assumption, as the verse could then offer another explanation, and we'd be in a bizarre situation where we'd have to argue it isn't an ability, by default, which sorta sucks, particularly with something that in my experience is frequently misunderstood.

This is not to say this Causality Manipulation justification cannot happen nor that it does not happen frequently in fiction (I'm not familiar with any of the three examples you list), but I think it falls to each example to justify it, rather than making that the standard assumption. My current opinion remains that just adding a note (preferably a better worded one than I made above) to Existence Erasure, to avoid historical erasure being given too easily, is the simplest and best solution.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Bambu's suggested solutions here seem very reasonable.

I still agree with Bambu here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

TBF, Bambu is still agreeing with the basis of this CRT removing History stuff from verses unless they're specific about it, these are just details at this point.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think DT and I disagree, currently.


This seems to imply that DT agrees that destroying a timeline shouldn't count for destroying the history of said timeline by default (that is to say, count as existence erasure on a historical level). I also agree with that. The issue with the thread, then, is what do we actually do about that in terms of policy, where does it go, etc.

I think the proposals of the thread may be too grand. A specific note on our Existence Erasure page pointing out that this is not fundamentally the case could be made. I tend to be bad at writing up notes like that, but I think something as simple as the following would suffice:



Obviously subject to improvements to get the point across better.

While what the OP talks about is not an official element of our EE page, a CRT may then be necessary to note this in the examples listed in the OP, as well as any others where historical erasure is applied in a slapdash way. This may be all that is necessary to do here. Hell, a CRT may not even be necessary- with the standards changed to explicitly say one way or the other how it works, the previous presumptive way it works would just be invalidated. Other verses claiming this or that could just be directed to the page, where it says they are wrong.

In any case, I don't think "History Manipulation" is a beneficial addition to the wiki.

Just to clarify, this is what I agree with.

 

[KLOL506]

So uh, what would the final result look like, since y'all got everything pretty much resolved?

 

[Theglassman12]

Unless there’s any objections, just elaborating on the nature of historical Existence erasure and how nuking timelines in of itself wouldn’t be enough should the the consensus.

 

[Antvasima]

Unless there’s any objections, just elaborating on the nature of historical Existence erasure and how nuking timelines in of itself wouldn’t be enough should the the consensus.

Thank you for the summary.

Is somebody here willing to apply this change? Please link to the page where the changes are made as well.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Antvasima this is likely gonna be much more than just applying a change to existence erasure, we’re gonna probably need a standard evaluation thread on any franchise that has existence erasure based on nuking timelines or multiverses.