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Nope goku spells it out well, grade 2 still has speed issues there just less notable then grade 3
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Dragon Ball Daima Spoiler Discussion Thread
- Thread starter StarShooter80
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I mean really, the actual answer is "They didn't wrote Vegeta with SSJ3 at the time", all this is, is a retroactive addition, because fans wanted it and it was cool, wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last. The fact it can be handwaved via multiple things though is a bonus.
Besides, nobody is complaining Goku didn't go Blue KKX20 against Zamasu when he was stabbed and told he killed chichi and goten (he had it at the time), or the numerous other omega rage moments where they didn't go peak.
This is ignoring the fact he still has to actually compensate and train it.
Now, instead of complaining, and doing nothing but complaining. I asked you nicely, cite some of your claims. You keep stating stuff as objective fact, and have even said it's the case, so where do they say these things dude? A interview? Promo material? Where's the proof? Why won't you give anything?
Besides, nobody is complaining Goku didn't go Blue KKX20 against Zamasu when he was stabbed and told he killed chichi and goten (he had it at the time), or the numerous other omega rage moments where they didn't go peak.
But does he go SSJ3 all the time? No? Ok then there ya go.
This is ignoring the fact he still has to actually compensate and train it.
Now, instead of complaining, and doing nothing but complaining. I asked you nicely, cite some of your claims. You keep stating stuff as objective fact, and have even said it's the case, so where do they say these things dude? A interview? Promo material? Where's the proof? Why won't you give anything?
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The best part is that goku canonically did the energy saving meme.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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We haven’t even gotten to the big issues of your claim yet, like the fact he said even Goku only did this after Battle of Gods.
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Yeah? And why can't Vegeta have done so beforehand? It isn't like Vegeta wasn't training on his own time without Goku's knowledge. Given, ya know.
Fact is, it's a thing, a thing, among many, that excuses the, to be blunt, trivial nitpick that exists because it's ******* cool.
Also no, nice try, give sources for your shit or stop yapping. Literally nobody, not one person here, is buying your yap, you state it as fact. Where's your proof? Do you not have any? Are you just saying words? I want proof, you affirmed it as fact, 100%, if that is the case, a statement of sort must exist right? So give it.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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Because Goku got SSJ3 MASSIVELY sooner and it's clear the two are not on the same page about the form and never have been. You could argue since he ever stopped using Grade 3 he might have done the same, but he only ever used it like twice to begin with, and Grade 4 is just better than 3 in every way with no stamina drain.
What sources? All I'm doing is debunking your own claims.
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He says, as Vegeta whips out on screen just fine.
Reminder Vegeta consistently and constantly is shown to be able to master or learn things Goku obtained with less time or work. The only outlier to that is MUI. SSJ3 itself is coincidentally an example, he learned it in less than 6 months, probably quite fast given he was able to just kind of get it to where Bulma goes "oh yeah" as if it ain't news, meanwhile Goku took years. IT and Yardrat slop too in the Moro Arc.
Not relevant to the topic. You can argue anything if you really want to, but why would you? It's obnoxious, annoying, and arguing just to argue is what we call being a nuisance, especially, if it's trivial and explanations do exist.
Oh so actually just yapping. Got it.
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I’m genuinely just confused, because there’s not even a real inconsistency in Daima except Kibitokai being unfused, which can be easily solved—One—But two, because it wouldn’t even matter if they don’t because blatant inconsistencies has not stopped Toriyama or Toei from canonizing things that simply make no sense. I mean, Jaco the Patrolman introduces a completely revised backstory contradicting what’s explained by the original manga for Goku and Bardock (as he personally canonized Father of Goku and even without it Raditz clearly states why Goku is on Earth), tells us that Bulma figured out spaceships (and got designs for them by the space cops), contradicting her ignorance and need of the Namekian and Saiyan Ships to invent space travel to make it to Namek, and fully created a whole brigade of space police we probably should’ve ran into earlier considering they monitor the planet, as well as a whole sister for Bulma. Like, they don’t jive.
But look at that, Toriyama has made Jaco super duper canon! So you just overlook the inconsistencies and roll with it. Because that’s what the Author did. (Rick Riordan does the same, like when Percy took damage in the CANON STORY Singer of Apollo, which isn’t possible because he had the Curse of Achilles, or when Percy stated Leo Valdez tutors him in recently released CANON STORY Wrath of the Triple Goddess, something not possible because Leo Valdez is dead {except not really, it’s a long story, but he wasn’t FOUND ALIVE until 3 books later in the timeline}. He makes an oops, ignores it, and moves on, and you just gotta ignore how it doesn’t make sense because both are objectively true, now.)
But look at that, Toriyama has made Jaco super duper canon! So you just overlook the inconsistencies and roll with it. Because that’s what the Author did. (Rick Riordan does the same, like when Percy took damage in the CANON STORY Singer of Apollo, which isn’t possible because he had the Curse of Achilles, or when Percy stated Leo Valdez tutors him in recently released CANON STORY Wrath of the Triple Goddess, something not possible because Leo Valdez is dead {except not really, it’s a long story, but he wasn’t FOUND ALIVE until 3 books later in the timeline}. He makes an oops, ignores it, and moves on, and you just gotta ignore how it doesn’t make sense because both are objectively true, now.)
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Your forgetting goku didn't have to deal with anywhere near the same stamina drain in the after life. Once he got a real body he literally couldn't return to full power to beat buu. Daima is less then a year after the buu saga sense the dragonballs are still deactive in it, and vegeta can already casually transform into 3 so clearly the gap matters little, and there are still years for vegeta to come to the realization to train up SS2 to level with SS3 and there is precedent both for him to choose to do it with SS2 (him making a similar choice in the cell saga) and for goku to have chosen SS2 instead of SS 1 (as you said yourself he's seen using SS2 several times in super)
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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Ew.
Wait, are you suggesting Vegeta has SSJ3 in canon... in an argument about Daima being noncanon?
Of course he learns techniques faster, he watches Goku perform them all the time. SSJ3 isn't a technique. Also you forgot Kaioken.
That was... actually the best argument you could have made, but never mind.
Do you say this to everyone who debunks you?
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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He still got it massively sooner. And that's actually one of the biggest pieces of evidence for noncanon Daima, Vegeta feeling no stamina drain despite his kid body while Goku still had stamina drain late into Super.
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Dude it's on you to prove it isn't, you straight up refuse to. Sources, scans, something dude, otherwise stop yapping.
Newsflash, nobody but you here thinks it isn't, your example of SSJ3 as why, is self-defeating, because the very fact he has SSJ3 to begin with, leads to the argument you're now trying to ignore.
Not relevant, the Yardract stuff in the Moro arc makes it blatant that shit is excessively difficult and IT ain['t even one of the harder ones. Vegeta managed t do it 1st try. Seeing someone do it, doesn't mean you can. You still need to train, know how, yadda yadda.
No instead it's a shitty form, acknowledged as bad, and that even Goku ditched.
I didn't, he never attempted to copy that.
If you think that's an argument you need to re-evaluate how you tackle the forum.
You haven't said a single thing today worth my time no offense. You made claims, actually back them for once.
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Lmao what? The stamina drain isn't a big deal if they're beating the dogpiss stomping the foe. It's only a problem when they like, actually have to try. Goku didn't have a problem using it against Trunks because he wasn't trying for example, just showing it off when youre a dozen times stronger, isn't draining.
As an aside, is Broly noncanon too because he whipped out God in that?
Oh what about Vegeta mastering Blue before Goku?
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My my, even i, which had some reservations about Daima contradictions, have to admit that sayinf stuff without showing scans is not a good argument
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Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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"Daima is canon because he goes SSJ3 in Daima"
"That's not how it works"
"Source??"
Pick one.
He... uses it multiple times even after BoG. In fact that's the current goal of the U6 Saiyans.
He didn't try to copy MUI either, he was eliminated before Goku got it. He tried to copy Omen.
That was literally the closest thing to your argument actually happening in the series.
You think someone desperately trying to canonize Daima is worth my time? I'm the one debunking YOUR sources with info we've all seen for ourself.
BlastX
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Vegeta could get SSJ3 quicker because he became aware of it's existence thanks to Goku and had the necessary power for it. Ggotenks could easily access SSJ 2 and 3 once Goku showed Goten and Trunks the forms, hell in the DBS manga Vegeta learned through the existence of Perfect Blue thanks to fusing with Goku and worked out how to do it himself at the start of the very next arc, given he fused with Goku in the Buu saga...yeah, there you go.
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They aren't.
Yes. You keep saying it isn't canon, you've directly stated it as fact, even saying it's a spinoff. Where do they say this? When did they say this?
How about I pick both because some shit is harder to do and my argument was Vegeta has consistently shown being able to obtain or master or replicate things that took Goku ages, in shorter time. Him not doing it instantly in half a second for everything doesn't change the fact it has happened frequently enough to shoot down your claim.
Also, doing IT first try, or training SSJ forms, aren't the same thing, why the strawman?
Goku never once used SSJ3 in a real fight post BoG or where he was overconfident.
He always uses his Blue, or ironically, SSJ1. God like twice.
Same shit. And not an argument, the thing Goku had been lowkey been working toward for decades, actively for over a year, Vegeta didn't manage to copy in 7 seconds and then he went "I'd rather this form actually", doesn't detract from what I said.
Me saying you're obnoxious and stop arguing for the hell of it, I don't recall happening in DBZ but if it did, that'd be quite the spectacle.
It's canon by default, it was promoted as a direct tie-in, written by the author no less.
Burden of proof is on you, not everyone else, you ain't special, your word doesn't supercede official sources. You keep saying it's 100% though, I'm telling you where do they say this? Surely you have proof and aren't just saying words right?
You've done no such thing. All you've done as per usual is just say words without backing them up. I wnat proof, give proof.
Your whole argument is "Vegeta has SSJ3". And? He does. How does that make it non-canon?
You need a in-universe explanation to appease you? SSJ3 is dogshit, even Goku stops using it in actual fights. SSJ1 can be trained to be comaparable to SSJ3 invaliding the form further without the major drawback. Vegeta has shown time and time again he can be quick on the uptake, including multiple times in Super, such as on Yardrat or with Blue, even overtaking Goku's mastering of such things at times despite getting it second or later, which, given Daima prefaces Vegeta getting SSJ3 less than 6 months after Buu, simply enforces that, as in the contradiction, in and of itself, excuses itself.
All you've said is nuh uh. You haven't given a single actual rebuttal. And all this, before it's even over no less.
It's also double standards, why is the other times stuff like this happened ok? Vegeta went SSJG in Broly, why? Is that noncanon? When did he get that? Why did he never do it before? Would have been useful in the ToP as evidenced by Goku using SSJG to cut back in that same thing? Or what about mastering Blue? Even getting a whole new upgrade for it? Quicker than Goku. Why was Vegeta more adapt at the Yardrat training than Goku? Vegeta also just trains more compared to Goku, he doesn't even work, Goku gets put at gunpoint to work.
And that's all ignoring this is so trivial and the actual reason he has it is because it's COOL, fanservice. But the fact it can be explained, and yet you're taking that as proof it's non-canon, is mindboggling.
And what about all the stuff that suggests it's connected? Not even getting into PR stuff, why does Daima work on the framework established in Super? Why even bother showing the U6 or U10 Supreme Kai's and other such Super exclusive content if it wasn't meant to be connected?
If you can't actually source even one of your claims, stop yapping, it's a waste of both of our time.
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There has never been a good reason for Vegeta not knowing SS3 before so I don't see why people would cling so heavily to the idea of DBS Vegeta never using it somehow contradicting Daima. It's like pretending Trunks and Goten only having SS1 makes any sense when their fusion can go SS3 and they're infinitely stronger than Future Trunks who has FPSS2 or claiming that Vegito somehow can't go past SS1 even though his fusees both can.
Goten could show up in Super Saiyan 3 in this next spinoff chapter and claim he learned to do it before BoG and I wouldn't be even slightly confused by it.
Goten could show up in Super Saiyan 3 in this next spinoff chapter and claim he learned to do it before BoG and I wouldn't be even slightly confused by it.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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Honestly I kinda wish they each did SSJ2 in Super Hero.
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True and also giving Krillin Buff form (Full power Roshi form)
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Vegeta doing it better isn't a counterdiction.
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Hmmmm is that a real word? (tries looking it up)
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No but it vibes out so I'll allow it.
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So are you seriously telling me you don't know what I ment?
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If Toyotaro was going to **** them out of a proper Gotenks against Gohan they could have had them both go Super Saiyan 2 against him at least, to show the fruits of their training. Have them get the drop on him with it and it impresses him enough he then goes Ultimate to test them more.
Hasty12345
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All this talk about canon but no one is talking about water vegeta making another appearance, when we adding it as a transformation on his profile?
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Not impressive because Ssj Blue Water Vegeta already exists
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Goku didn't use Blue Kaioken against Broly, Vegeta didn't use Blue Evolution against Broly, Vegeta used SSG in Broly Movie but not in Super TV Series
DBS is not canon to DBS: Broly confirmed
DBS is not canon to DBS: Broly confirmed
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Rereading Buu, Goku is fraud af.
Gotenks got SSJ3 in a week, to which Goku went holy shit it took me years to master it.
but yeah Vegeta doing it in 6 months is to much even though the lil ***** could.
Gotenks got SSJ3 in a week, to which Goku went holy shit it took me years to master it.
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Water Vegeta debuted on Namek
SSJ3 Water Vegeta (mini) debuted on Old Namek
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That's wild foreshadowing actually, if anything that should tell us how interconnected all this actually is.
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BlastX
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Gotenks doesn't really count since fusions are a new being with different potential from their fusees.
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Of course not, I'm just messing with you for using an imaginary word
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It does count because there's zero reason to think the characters don't retain their memories as fusions and Goten and Trunks specifically trained to learn SS3. They even talk about discovering it together and being excited over it. And current Goten and Trunks are far stronger than Gotenks was in the Buu Saga.
So they have the knowledge and the power to do it. And we can now plainly see that anyone can learn SS3 since Vegeta just trained and figured it out. There's no reason to think those two can't pull it off.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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I don’t think they have the power. It’s highly doubtful that they both have the stats Gotenks had back then, especially with how little they train.
Which reminds me of the part in Super where Goten almost got trained by Whis.
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