• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Are Stated Speeds/Timeframes For Characters Calc Stacking?

Status
Not open for further replies.
CloverDragon03 said:
I’m sorry to ask, but what about this one specifically? It’s the one we especially need a consensus on.
Click to expand...
I suppose this is fine as long as it all comes from statements only I suppose and doesn't involve the use of any pre-calculated values for anything


Ig if the narrative says like characters A and B are lightspeed since A is stated to be able to move at lightspeed and B is comparable or like equal then character C comes along and is like 2x faster than character B from narrative statements or a feat if its directly presented as such or something so we say he's 2c, that works
 
Damage3245 said:
Can an example case be provided for that one?
Click to expand...
Character A is stated to move at 200 m/s.

Character B scales to Character A, without explicit reference to that same speed statement. Either through a statement like "Character B is way faster than Character A", or through a feat of Character B outspeeding Character A. If you would treat those situations differently, feel free to give a modal answer.

Character C blitzes Character B, and a user of the wiki wants to calculate that using Character A's stated speed.
Dalesean027 said:
I suppose this is fine as long as it all comes from statements only I suppose and doesn't involve the use of any pre-calculated values for anything

Ig if the narrative says like characters A and B are lightspeed since A is stated to be able to move at lightspeed and B is comparable or like equal then character C comes along and is like 2x faster than character B from narrative statements or a feat if its directly presented as such or something so we say he's 2c, that works
Click to expand...
I'm confused here, since you say "if the narrative says characters A and B are lightspeed"; we're talking about cases where Character B doesn't have a statement of speed (or where Character A's stated speed is argued to be usable instead of Character B's statement).

Added all the other votes people provided to the OP.
 
Agnaa said:
I'm confused here, since you say "if the narrative says characters A and B are lightspeed"; we're talking about cases where Character B doesn't have a statement of speed (or where Character A's stated speed is argued to be usable instead of Character B's statement).
Click to expand...
Yeah ya just worded it better than me but that's what I said there.
 
Alright, I've put you down as one step of scaling isn't disqualifying.
 
I believe all the questions have reached proper consensuses now. Is there anything left to do?
 
Maybe we could write up a new section on the Calc Stacking page to mention those conclusions?
 
I've got a minute now, so I'll try to tackle it.

Using Stated Speeds​

We don't generally consider using stated speeds (even somewhat unclear ones, such as a character moving while a timer is shown) in other calculations to be calc stacking, under a few conditions:
  • If characters are known or implied to not be moving at their top speed in the scene being calculated, an earlier stated speed is unusable unless the stated speed was for them holding back to a similar or greater extent.
  • While we do allow stated speeds to be used across one step of scaling (i.e. if Character B is faster than Character A, a stated speed for Character A can be used in calculations for Character B), we don't allow them to be used across multiple, due to concerns with reliability.
  • Care must be taken to only use stated speeds that are relevant to a calculation. A character's stated running speed cannot be used to calculate someone moving faster than they can react, as that requires a conversion between the two, and thus, a calculation. Similarly, a character's stated reaction speed, or a timeframe they can act within, cannot be used to calculate a character running faster than them, for the same reason.
 
Last edited:
Agnaa said:
  • Care must be taken to only use stated speeds that are relevant to a calculation. A character's stated running speed cannot be used to calculate someone moving faster than they can react, as that requires a conversion between the two, and thus, a calculation. Similarly, a character's stated reaction speed, or a timeframe they can act within, cannot be used to calculate a character running faster than them, for the same reason.
Click to expand...
Question: Would using values from the Perception Table based on statements (Like say, there is an in-verse lightspeed statement and we judge it to be 3.336e-9 seconds from the Perception Tables) be considered a calc, and in turn, would using that 3.336e-9 seconds in another calc to find speed be considered calc stacking?

This is important as we have many feats in fiction where characters move in blurs/leave behind afterimages and cover a certain distance, and we assume baseline Subsonic perception timeframe in that case (After-images are considered the starting point for Subsonic as per our standards) and then divide the distance moved in that timeframe to get their true speed. Would that fall under calc stacking as well?
 
KLOL506 said:
Question: Would using values from the Perception Table based on statements (Like say, there is an in-verse lightspeed statement and we judge it to be 3.336e-9 seconds from the Perception Tables) be considered a calc, and in turn, would using that 3.336e-9 seconds in another calc to find speed be considered calc stacking?
Click to expand...
Yes, because that assumes that they can react to an obstacle suddenly popping up at a distance of 1 meter. Really, to do things properly, we'd need to find out how distant of an obstacle they can react to while moving at that speed to know their perception speed.

It's kind of the same issue behind how we're more careful with flight speed. Terrestrial travel usually involves reacting to objects within a few meters, so it's not big enough of an issue to change ratings unless that statement's for flight.
KLOL506 said:
This is important as we have many feats in fiction where characters move in blurs/leave behind afterimages and cover a certain distance, and we assume baseline Subsonic perception timeframe in that case (After-images are considered the starting point for Subsonic as per our standards) and then divide the distance moved in that timeframe to get their true speed. Would that fall under calc stacking as well?
Click to expand...
I don't think that's really related.

We're not really using an equivalence between the required speed and the perception speed table by assuming a distance of 1 meter; that should be clear by how we're using it to find this character's speed in the first place. If we were doing it as you say, every calculation would result in such a character getting baseline Subsonic. You can't use a character's speed when performing a feat as a starting value to get that they were actually performing that feat at a higher speed; such logic would blow up to infinite speed.

In truth, we're using a border for human perception; the timeframe at which objects moving certain distances leave a blur. Then we're using this timeframe, and the measured distance, to get the character's speed.

In other words, that's not an issue because:
  • There's no conversion between movement speed and perception speed in such feats.
  • The basis is a function of typical human perception speed.
  • Such values aren't stated, they're derived from the real world.
 
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to comment here, so I apologize beforehand if I'm breaking some rule, however, seeing the thread is pretty dead I don't think this should be an issue. That said, I'd like to ask a few things
Was a definitive conclusion reached here?
Are stated speeds usable (as long as they follow the rules from Agnaa's draft) or does the Calc Stacking page needs to be updated first?
 
This seems to be our definitive conclusion.
Agnaa said:
I've got a minute now, so I'll try to tackle it.

Using Stated Speeds​

We don't generally consider using stated speeds (even somewhat unclear ones, such as a character moving while a timer is shown) in other calculations to be calc stacking, under a few conditions:
  • If characters are known or implied to not be moving at their top speed in the scene being calculated, an earlier stated speed is unusable unless the stated speed was for them holding back to a similar or greater extent.
  • While we do allow stated speeds to be used across one step of scaling (i.e. if Character B is faster than Character A, a stated speed for Character A can be used in calculations for Character B), we don't allow them to be used across multiple, due to concerns with reliability.
  • Care must be taken to only use stated speeds that are relevant to a calculation. A character's stated running speed cannot be used to calculate someone moving faster than they can react, as that requires a conversion between the two, and thus, a calculation. Similarly, a character's stated reaction speed, or a timeframe they can act within, cannot be used to calculate a character running faster than them, for the same reason.
Click to expand...
I think such feats currently land in a limbo, until the Calc Stacking page gets updated.
 
@Agnaa

While we do allow stated speeds to be used across one step of scaling (i.e. if Character B is faster than Character A, a stated speed for Character A can be used in calculations for Character B), we don't allow them to be used across multiple, due to concerns with reliability.
Click to expand...

What about regarding like canonically superior speed?

Like A gets the statement. B is stated to be faster than A. C is stated to be faster than B. Like direct statements of superiority instead of just regular powerscaling. Is that solid?
 
Still only for one step.
 
This might be a "is grass green" type of question but I just wanna ask regardless.

Do statements like "faster than the eye" or "faster than sound" count as stated speeds?
 
Dinozxd said:
This might be a "is grass green" type of question but I just wanna ask regardless.

Do statements like "faster than the eye" or "faster than sound" count as stated speeds?
Click to expand...
I'd say no. These are things we'd have to calculate and make assumptions for, particularly the former one, rather than explicitly provided numbers.

There's similar stuff like "They travelled 10 km in thirty minutes" and "They travelled a few dozen kilometres in an hour".
 
Agnaa said:
I'd say no. These are things we'd have to calculate and make assumptions for, particularly the former one, rather than explicitly provided numbers.

There's similar stuff like "They travelled 10 km in thirty minutes" and "They travelled a few dozen kilometres in an hour".
Click to expand...
Hmmm. It seems like you and KLOL seem to be in opposite stances.
 
TBF my stuff was more so in relation with the slo-mo formula but I have lost track of any further developments since. It was a while ago.
 
Agnaa said:
I've got a minute now, so I'll try to tackle it.

Using Stated Speeds​

We don't generally consider using stated speeds (even somewhat unclear ones, such as a character moving while a timer is shown) in other calculations to be calc stacking, under a few conditions:
  • If characters are known or implied to not be moving at their top speed in the scene being calculated, an earlier stated speed is unusable unless the stated speed was for them holding back to a similar or greater extent.
  • While we do allow stated speeds to be used across one step of scaling (i.e. if Character B is faster than Character A, a stated speed for Character A can be used in calculations for Character B), we don't allow them to be used across multiple, due to concerns with reliability.
  • Care must be taken to only use stated speeds that are relevant to a calculation. A character's stated running speed cannot be used to calculate someone moving faster than they can react, as that requires a conversion between the two, and thus, a calculation. Similarly, a character's stated reaction speed, or a timeframe they can act within, cannot be used to calculate a character running faster than them, for the same reason.
Click to expand...
Bump.

Do I need to tag staff again to check the draft out?
 
Yeah, it's only gotten 2 evaluations from CGMs.
 
Agnaa said:
I've got a minute now, so I'll try to tackle it.

Using Stated Speeds​

We don't generally consider using stated speeds (even somewhat unclear ones, such as a character moving while a timer is shown) in other calculations to be calc stacking, under a few conditions:
  • If characters are known or implied to not be moving at their top speed in the scene being calculated, an earlier stated speed is unusable unless the stated speed was for them holding back to a similar or greater extent.
  • While we do allow stated speeds to be used across one step of scaling (i.e. if Character B is faster than Character A, a stated speed for Character A can be used in calculations for Character B), we don't allow them to be used across multiple, due to concerns with reliability.
  • Care must be taken to only use stated speeds that are relevant to a calculation. A character's stated running speed cannot be used to calculate someone moving faster than they can react, as that requires a conversion between the two, and thus, a calculation. Similarly, a character's stated reaction speed, or a timeframe they can act within, cannot be used to calculate a character running faster than them, for the same reason.
Click to expand...
@Mr. Bambu @DontTalkDT @DMUA @Therefir @Executor_N0 @Dark-Carioca @Migue79 @TheRustyOne @Psychomaster35 @SeijiSetto @DemiiPowa @Flashlight237 @Armorchompy @SunDaGamer @Dalesean027 @Aguywhodoesthings Does this look acceptable to you?
 
Stuff has already been applied, anything else left to do?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Mommyleona
  • Locked
Bleach Big Calc problems
6 7 8
Replies
287
Views
15K
Dalesean027
Dalesean027
Epyriel
Calc Review of Equinoctial Vermilion Eyes Perception Speed
2
Replies
41
Views
6K
Epyriel
Epyriel
Billybobjoe321
Are statements considered calc stacking?
Replies
19
Views
3K
Billybobjoe321
Billybobjoe321
Qurbonboev
Is using subsonic reaction for these characters fine?
Replies
21
Views
1K
ElJoaki5
ElJoaki5
CatLover313
  • Locked
Slow Mo Calc Definition Revision
2 3 4
Replies
129
Views
11K
CatLover313
CatLover313
Back
Top