Jujutsu Kaisen Speed Upgrade

[EldemadeDityjon]

https://media.**********.net/attachments/605149913701023747/1161115345176764476/jjk_womb7_215_007.png?ex=65371fee&is=6524aaee&hm=06a6cba9c52d8b7d030fe9a802e4402519f20f19bdb65de562e5b50a2a5689ed&=&width=809&height=1168


You gon have to kill me to make me disagree cause ain't no way

I'm done KT if you still keep ignoring the part Sukuna was weakned here.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm done KT if you still keep ignoring the part Sukuna was weakned here.

It's said Megumi has minimal influence over Megukuna's flesh. His movement was not hindered, so Sukuna was pretty much almost at full capacity.
Maki fought that same Sukuna hand in hand.

Maki scales. Nothing says she doesn't. She's relative to Sukuna.

Do I need to make this my damn signature?

 

[YeahhBoyee]

Do I need to make this my damn signature?

Wait, how is there any ground to claim that Meguna is at 10% of his original speed then? I thought it was ambiguous what the nerf applied to but it just straight up says Meguna can move unhindered.

That was a nerfed 15F Meguna who couldn't fight at full power because of Megumi, not the same as 15F who clashed with Gojo after he fully took over Megumi

Im a ******* dumbass btw should have re-read

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Do I need to make this my damn signature?

I said I'm don't with this shit. ain't repeating same things which I already explained to others. This is getting circular at this point.

 

[KingTempest]

Wait, how is there any ground to claim that Meguna is at 10% of his original speed then? I thought it was ambiguous what the nerf applied to but it just straight up says Meguna can move unhindered.

There isn’t any ground that he’s slower at all. I only said that 10% cause they kept spamming “he’s slower”

I said I'm don't with this shit. ain't repeating same things which I already explained to others. This is getting circular at this point.

…???????

 

[Nierre]

Ok, thank you for this. Yeah I was originally gonna get into a bunch of stuff, but as you pointed out earlier I think that'd be better addressed for another thread. I think we can tackle this point relatively easy.

Maki did not simply gain "precognition". Her entire awareness was shifted to the point where she feels air molecules meters away from her as if they were apart of her sensory system. This has to do with the Buddhist themes of JJK and the gains that come with enlightenment. For instance, Gojo went from struggling to keep up with Toji's speed pre-enlightenment, to being able to casually dodge toji's advances, so it's much more than "precognition". This was gone over with her whole synesthesia thing (seeing smells, hearing colors, etc) and why she went from not being able to muster a block against Noaya despite him charging from dozens of meters away, to casually dodging him mid air last second after her awakening. Mind you, Naoya must be > Mach 3 to coordinate his movements and he doesn't even realize he isn't hitting Maki while she's moved several feet with no foothold.

I feel something that is a little bit more blatant would be Maki's feat added to the volume extras. When Sukuna initially took over Megumi, Maki and Takaba rushed to ambush Sukuna and help him out. Sukuna responded by summing a skyscraper level Nue and summoning cloud to ground lightning to kill them both. Maki was able to defend using the exact some pose she used to brace for Naoya meaning she physically reacts, and this is something that sukuna later gives her credit for.

To ignore lightning and later light scaling would be to ignore Kashimo as a whole and Sukuna's advancements of 10S which blatantly scale above supersonic and back up Hakari barely reacting to lightning.

How would you index Maki's speed?

 

[PowerToScale]

Welcome to JJK, where we have characters perceiving, reacting and dodging objects and attacks that are faster than sound at point blank ranges, yet are supposedly slower than subconic according to author. The series should have applied death of the author and used calcs a long time ago, but that's going off track.

Reading this thread the opposition arguments come down to two things:
-Maki vs Naoya
-Naobito

Firstly, The Maki argument makes no sense. Maki prior to awakening wasn't able to fight Naoya (curse womb) at the his Mach 3 speeds. However, after she attains enlightenment after fighting with the sumo dude, she does a complete transforms and becomes her truly realized self. She then not only is able to effortless perceive Naoya through her surrounding and dodge him effortlessly, she is able to even move faster than him by jumping to the side and jumping forwards delivering a punch at him when he is going top speed, as we see him encase himself in his shell. This provides no issue in scaling, as it would simple mean HMS characters >> Maki >> Mach 3. In fact Maki has more going for being around MHS herself as she is able to react to lighting from the top of a building, fight a fluctuating Sukuna and is regarded as on of the heavy hitters to face Kenjaku and Sukuna as plan B.

Maki doesn't limit the speed as she herself is not bound by the Mach 3 speed limit, any character below the her and Naoya would be.

The Naobito argument has been addressed already but to quickly summaries, Naobito was know to be the fastest in the at the when he was alive. However, the large majority of the sorcerers that would be scaling are either superior or not known much of their abilities. Gojo is the fastest, Sukuna is comparable to him as the god tiers, Hakari has been outside of the sorcerer world since he was expelled and not much was know about him, also performs the MHS speed feat, Kashimo is a past sorcerer and is able to keep up with Hakari. Yuta is a sorcerer second only to Gojo and hasn't gone all out until the Sendai colony with this opponents scaling to him. Better explain by others already.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

How would you index Maki's speed?

Maki has several supersonic feats in the Goodwill arc which Tempest calc'd for us and the verse is obviously subsonic before Naoya. Even if we take mach 3 statement at face value (which mind you places pre enlightenment post awakening Maki at peak human level speed given the distance at which she was blitzed) after her enlightenment she is casually making light work of Naoya's speed both reaction and travel speed wise, and I just showed her reacting to lightning there, meaning the idea that she the version who fought Sukuna is somehow capped anywhere near mach 3 is not evidenced.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Welcome to JJK, where we have characters perceiving, reacting and dodging objects and attacks that are faster than sound at point blank ranges, yet are supposedly slower than subconic according to author. The series should have applied death of the author and used calcs a long time ago, but that's going off track.

You have characters reacting to lightning, event horizons, EM waves, and characters that are stated to be relative or the best chance at fighting said characters, but they’re still bullet level speed. Man, I hate this verse (on site) too.

 

[Shey]

Check this scans bottom left. CT Output would still affect Cursed Energy control and weakness if CT gets negged.
If we have to scale them then we need a seperate thread to sort everything out. I even suggested to make a seperate thread for Milly.

That's also like coupled with the fact he says his "Physical Movement isn't as bad" not that it's unaffected.

Scaling Maki and Yuji to Full Power 15F Sukuna would be scaling them to blitz levels of speed above Yuta (Ryu)

 

[Spinoirr]

5 pages

 

[Dr._whiteee]

That's also like coupled with the fact he says his "Physical Movement isn't as bad" not that it's unaffected.

Scaling Maki and Yuji to Full Power 15F Sukuna would be scaling them to blitz levels of speed above Yuta (Ryu)

the direct translation is

There is some instability; my cursed energy output goes under ten percent at its worst. My movement is not the same, though...

Meaning his movement is not being impacted as his cursed energy output is.

 

[Shey]

Wait, how is there any ground to claim that Meguna is at 10% of his original speed then? I thought it was ambiguous what the nerf applied to but it just straight up says Meguna can move unhindered.



Im a ******* dumbass btw should have re-read

Cursed Energy Output bolsters physical capabilities

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Cursed Energy Output bolsters physical capabilities

Oh yeah, no doubt but the output required for techniques is much more than the required CE for basic boosting, so while hampered, 15F Sukuna is still vastly stronger than like 95% of the verse, so in practical terms I don't see much reason to try and take away from Maki, especially with Sukuna later commenting that he was correct in assigning more than half of his attention and reserves to Maki instead of Yuji, despite the latters gains displayed during that fight.

 

[KingTempest]

Maki did not simply gain "precognition". Her entire awareness was shifted to the point where she feels air molecules meters away from her as if they were apart of her sensory system. This has to do with the Buddhist themes of JJK and the gains that come with enlightenment.

Which effectively gave her a method of precognition via her enhanced senses.
It's like saying "it's not fire manipulation, it's manipulating the concept of friction to a large extent to ignite the air".
It's effectively the same result.

For instance, Gojo went from struggling to keep up with Toji's speed pre-enlightenment, to being able to casually dodge toji's advances,

He never struggled to keep up with his speed. He couldn't sense him. He noted that he was fast, but he couldn't sense his presence cause of his lack of CE.
Toji was certain he could tag him if pulled by Blue and that his [Toji's] speed was effective.

so it's much more than "precognition". This was gone over with her whole synesthesia thing (seeing smells, hearing colors, etc) and why she went from not being able to muster a block against Noaya despite him charging from dozens of meters away, to casually dodging him mid air last second after her awakening. Mind you, Naoya must be > Mach 3 to coordinate his movements and he doesn't even realize he isn't hitting Maki while she's moved several feet with no foothold.

Nothing says he was moving at Mach 3 in that instance.
In order for him to move at Mach 3, he needs to accelerate through a ridiculous distance while expelling air out of his sides. We see the air that leaves his sides as he accelerates to Mach 3.
He wasn't expelling air and he wasn't gaining speed by accelerating through a large distance. He was too busy running into buildings to tag Maki.
Nothing shows Post-Realization Maki reacting to Mach 3 at all. She reacts to the same slower Naoya like she and Kamo did prior to her realization.

I feel something that is a little bit more blatant would be Maki's feat added to the volume extras. When Sukuna initially took over Megumi, Maki and Takaba rushed to ambush Sukuna and help him out. Sukuna responded by summing a skyscraper level Nue and summoning cloud to ground lightning to kill them both. Maki was able to defend using the exact some pose she used to brace for Naoya meaning she physically reacts,

Reacting to lightning hundreds of feat in the air is not an impressive feat sir.

I think you're trying too hard here to just prove "the Mach 3 wall is wrong" instead of proving the issue we have wrong.

You need another thread to tackle something as big as the Mach 1-3 wall.

and this is something that sukuna later gives her credit for.

He gives her credit for withstanding the attack. Not for blocking it.
"I don't see damage from Nue. I guess she isn't easy to take down"

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Oh yeah, no doubt but the output required for techniques is much more than the required CE for basic boosting, so while hampered, 15F Sukuna is still vastly stronger than like 95% of the verse, so in practical terms I don't see much reason to try and take away from Maki, especially with Sukuna later commenting that he was correct in assigning more than half of his attention and reserves to Maki instead of Yuji, despite the latters gains displayed during that fight.

Please I beg you stop trying to push maki to Sukuna level . Really already you people dragged this shit to 5 pages.

 

[KingTempest]

So even Dr.Whiteee agrees Maki's on Sukuna's level

He just doesn't agree with Maki being under Mach 3

 

[Shey]

Oh yeah, no doubt but the output required for techniques is much more than the required CE for basic boosting, so while hampered, 15F Sukuna is still vastly stronger than like 95% of the verse, so in practical terms I don't see much reason to try and take away from Maki, especially with Sukuna later commenting that he was correct in assigning more than half of his attention and reserves to Maki instead of Yuji, despite the latters gains displayed during that fight.

I'm not saying to take away from Maki, it is fact that his movement is affected, from his statement about it, to his hand physically twitching earlier to CE Output variations.

And you can't put Maki and not Yuji.
If both are scaling to Full Power 15F then by extension they would scale Massively above Yuta and even to Satoru Gojo which doesn't make sense narratively as they're supposed to threaten Kenjaku and vice versa

 

[Dr._whiteee]

If both are scaling to Full Power 15F then by extension they would scale Massively above Yuta and even to Satoru Gojo which doesn't make sense narratively as they're supposed to threaten Kenjaku and vice versa

Not following you here. Gojo is on God tier scaling so we can forget him as far as things are concerned. What makes you think you Yuta is inferior to Maki? Yuta fought against past sorcerers who survived in combat vs prime Sukuna, basic CE enhancement allowed him to keep up with Geto, and who the current roster of humanity's last hope all chose as their collective "insurance" in the case that Gojo died. That doesn't really make sense if Hakari is orders of magnitudes faster than Yuta as well as Maki.

I also think it is pretty hard to argue that Sukuna was so impacted speedwise because of CE dampening yet not acknowledge that Yuta is a bit less than half the CE reserves of a 20F sukuna.

 

[Shey]

15F(Blitz levels)>>>Ryu=Yuta
And we cannot leave Gojo out of 15F scaling, we see 15F stop a Bloodlusted Gojo in his tracks, and 15F was planning to fight him there and then

 

[Dr._whiteee]

15F(Blitz levels)>>>Ryu=Yuta
And we cannot leave Gojo out of 15F scaling, we see 15F stop a Bloodlusted Gojo in his tracks, and 15F was planning to fight him there and then

This isn't really a valid comparison at all.

Ryu was blitzed by Sukuna's cleave speed, which relies on the manifestation of his cursed technique.

Maki nor Yuji were faster than his cleave speed and we saw this on panel. Maki was only keeping up with Sukuna in hand to hand and had to get out of the way of his spiderweb attack. Yuji obviously was not capable of dodging cleave either.

15F Sukuna feat was an interception feat which is inherently accepted as a confounding factor for a feat. Also I'm pretty sure the Sukuna that met with Gojo had 1 month of bathing in uraume stuff and got back to 19F IIRC, just hadn't gotten his old body back.

 

[Shey]

This isn't really a valid comparison at all.

Ryu was blitzed by Sukuna's cleave speed, which relies on the manifestation of his cursed technique.

Maki nor Yuji were faster than his cleave speed and we saw this on panel. Maki was only keeping up with Sukuna in hand to hand and had to get out of the way of his spiderweb attack. Yuji obviously was not capable of dodging cleave either.

15F Sukuna feat was an interception feat which is inherently accepted as a confounding factor for a feat. Also I'm pretty sure the Sukuna that met with Gojo had 1 month of bathing in uraume stuff and got back to 19F IIRC, just hadn't gotten his old body back.

That was not just "Cleave Speed", he physically moved from in front of him to his back and slapped him across the face without a single reaction from him.

It wasn't one month, that's impossible if that were the case the time of meeting Ryu would've been in Atleast January 17th, 2019 and we know that is not the case. The bath had been prepared before Uraume got there and all Sukuna had to do was go into it and there is like 0 indication it amps his statistics, he only says it's to sink Megumi's soul further and bring him closer to Evil making Megumi unable to Nerf Sukuna and finalizing it by killing his sister making him completely unsuppressed, there would be no problem with the scaling if we go by blatant indications of the ramifications of CE Output

 

[YeahhBoyee]

Cursed Energy Output bolsters physical capabilities

CE output doesn't affect speed, not to any noticable extent, here are some examples to name a few: Naobito stated to be faster than Yuta and at the very least relative with much less CE, Gojo (much) faster than Yuta with less CE, Gojo being comparable to 20F Sukuna speed who has more than twice the CE pool of Yuta/Gojo, Yuji reacting to and fighting Higuruma with no CE at all whos stated to be Grade 1 level. Hakari being stated to have access to infinite CE yet still getting tagged by Kashimo (who has vastly less CE than Jackpot Hakari and was wary of Hakari before Jackpot started) and not blitzing. Finally there is no noticeable speed difference between Hakari in and outside of Jackpot mode when it should grant him a massive speed amp if your statement was true.

Besides, Sukuna states clearly his movement is not impacted.

 

[KingTempest]

Ngl

I just asked a lot of people

CE is never stated to amplify speed in the series

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

CE output doesn't affect speed, not to any noticable extent, here are some examples to name a few: Naobito stated to be faster than Yuta and at the very least relative with much less CE, Gojo (much) faster than Yuta with less CE, Gojo being comparable to 20F Sukuna speed who has more than twice the CE pool of Yuta/Gojo, Yuji reacting to and fighting Higuruma with no CE at all whos stated to be Grade 1 level. Hakari being stated to have access to infinite CE yet still getting tagged by Kashimo (who has vastly less CE than Jackpot Hakari and was wary of Hakari before Jackpot started) and not blitzing. Finally there is no noticeable speed difference between Hakari in and outside of Jackpot mode when it should grant him a massive speed amp if your statement was true.

Besides, Sukuna states clearly his movement is not impacted.

Having more CE not ≠ more CE output. Really you should think on topics twice before commenting.

Gojo has more CE Output despite having less CE than Yuta.

 

[YeahhBoyee]

Having more CE not ≠ more CE output.

Most characters scale lineary with CE amount and output being relative. Ryu and Gojo are noted as exceptions because it doesn't usually fluctuate by too much.

Really you should think on topics twice before commenting.

Don't think this attitude is warranted when your CRT was so half-baked that we are 5 pages into deconstructing it and still not finished.

Gojo has more CE Output despite having less CE than Yuta.

Yes, Gojo is a great marker for what the average CE user's output is.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

That was not just "Cleave Speed", he physically moved from in front of him to his back and slapped him across the face without a single reaction from him.

Sukuna did move but the slash across Ryu's face was not a physical one, it literally manifested across his face.

We see even Gojo in his fight vs Sukuna get shot by cleave which sails passed infinity. Dodging cleave is extremely hard and Mahoraga needed an adaption to even deflect his cleave. Yet both were capable of handling him in CqC. Sukuna's movement isn't 1 to 1 correlated with his cleave.

Also, yes, Sukuna is faster than Ryu. So Ryu was facing a faster person with spawn on target CT combo. I don't see how you're using the niche scenario try try and downscale Yuta, especially when Yuta beat Ryu + two other special grades in the same fight and is blatantly being treated as stronger vs Sukuna than the likes of Hakari and Maki

It wasn't one month, that's impossible if that were the case the time of meeting Ryu would've been in Atleast January 17th, 2019 and we know that is not the case.

Yeah I was wrong on this one.

Anywho be back tomorrow gotta rest.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Most characters scale lineary with CE amount and output being relative. Ryu and Gojo are noted as exceptions because it doesn't usually fluctuate by too much.

Mind sending where it was stated only Gojo and Ryu were exceptional?
Kashimo has less CE still his Output was no less than Unlimited CE holder Hakari in jackpot.

Don't think this attitude is warranted when your CRT was so half-baked that we are 5 pages into deconstructing it and still not finished.

My thread wouldn't have been 5 pages if people stopped wanking Maki to 15F Sukuna level.

Yes, Gojo is a great marker for what the average CE user's output is.

Never marked. Feel free to send the scans especially we have statement for Sukuna having better efficiency than Gojo. You are just trying to spam whatever comes to your mind.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I have said this before, there should be a whole different thread first saying the lightning actually moves at lightning speed without anything to say otherwise before the calc can even be valid.
I may probably start arguing but KT is saying all that needs to be said and I do not want to make this thread longer.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I have said this before, there should be a whole different thread first saying the lightning actually moves at lightning speed without anything to say otherwise before the calc can even be valid.
I may probably start arguing but KT is saying all that needs to be said and I do not want to make this thread longer.

Not really, it’s satisfied more than enough criteria and as calc members pointed out, with enough potency to AP (being able to vaporize hakari’s torso), would clear up the need for other criteria in of itself, let alone with numbing effects, electrolysis, charge mechanics like CtG lightning, and conductivity through metals (kashimo’s metal rod conduit), all of which it has shown.

 

[YeahhBoyee]

Mind sending where it was stated only Gojo and Ryu were exceptional?

Im not sending anything for Gojo LMAO

Kashimo has less CE still his Output was no less than Unlimited CE holder Hakari in jackpot.

I think the burden of proof is on you given that Jackpot Hakari is established to have "Unlimited Cursed Energy" that he also outputs by passively performing RCT and EXPANDING HIS DOMAIN. I don't know where you got this from, but you are the one making the claim here so i think you should provide the evidence.

Just for fun though. Base Hakari has enough CE output to completely ignore Kashimo's cursed energy trait. In Jackpot he gets a massive amp to both his output and quantity shown when we see a massive increase in the amount of Cursed energy being output from him, while he's dancing. This Hakari that's just ignoring Kashimo's attacks is Pre-Jackpot btw and you're claiming Kashimo has the same output as Unlimited CE Hakari... again burden of proof is on you i call bull on that

Never marked

Gojo is the literal power ceiling of the series (up until 20F Sukuna started existing), what are you saying? Until explicitly disproven he is the highest level in any category of any human sorcerer, which is why i was lost that you chose him out of all people as an example.

Also if he was never marked how would you know he has a greater output than Yuta?

You are just trying to spam whatever comes to your mind.

Its funny because you seem to not realize that there's a difference between efficiency and output. Efficiency refers to how much CE is lost during an attack and output refers to how much of your CE you can output into one attack. Which for Gojo is higher than Yuta because unlike Yuta he doesn't have to worry about running out of CE and he also just has more powerful city-block wasting attacks like Hollow Purple that would obviously require a high output because not even Gojo is above basic Jujutsu laws.

Gojo's six eyes give him perfect efficiency and he obviously has extreme output as well because he's able to harm characters that have multiple times his CE and has extremely destructive attacks that would require a high base output.

 

[YeahhBoyee]

Also would appreciate if we got back on topic, i shut down the idea that cursed energy gives you a notable speed amp and you come in trying to start a debate about output and insulting me. Doesn't really have anything to do with your CRT now does it so lets get back on that

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Wow where it was stated exception? Some guy with highest output was = exception?

Im not sending anything for Gojo LMAO

Thanks for Conceding

I think the burden of proof is on you given that Jackpot Hakari is established to have "Unlimited Cursed Energy" that he also outputs by passively performing RCT and EXPANDING HIS DOMAIN. I don't know where you got this from, but you are the one making the claim here so i think you should provide the evidence.

Just for fun though. Base Hakari has enough CE output to completely ignore Kashimo's cursed energy trait. In Jackpot he gets a massive amp to both his output and quantity shown when we see a massive increase in the amount of Cursed energy being output from him, while he's dancing. This Hakari that's just ignoring Kashimo's attacks is Pre-Jackpot btw and you're claiming Kashimo has the same output as Unlimited CE Hakari... again burden of proof is on you i call bull on that

Yeah I completely see you haven't even read the series properly. That's not base Hakari. That's jackpot Hakari from Charles fight

Gojo is the literal power ceiling of the series (up until 20F Sukuna started existing), what are you saying? Until explicitly disproven he is the highest level in any category of any human sorcerer, which is why i was lost that you chose him out of all people as an example.

Also if he was never marked how would you know he has a greater output than Yuta?

Yuta himself states

Its funny because you seem to not realize that there's a difference between efficiency and output. Efficiency refers to how much CE is lost during an attack and output refers to how much of your CE you can output into one attack. Which for Gojo is higher than Yuta because unlike Yuta he doesn't have to worry about running out of CE and he also just has more powerful city-block wasting attacks like Hollow Purple that would obviously require a high output because not even Gojo is above basic Jujutsu laws.

Efficiency and Output are same thing stop trying to mix your own logic. Here is Dictionary.

efficiency

1. the quality of achieving the largest amount of useful work using as little…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Gojo's six eyes give him perfect efficiency and he obviously has extreme output as well because he's able to harm characters that have multiple times his CE and has extremely destructive attacks that would require a high base output.

Yet Kashimo with less CE can output on same level as Gojo to harm Sukuna.

Also would appreciate if we got back on topic, i shut down the idea that cursed energy gives you a notable speed amp and you come in trying to start a debate about output and insulting me. Doesn't really have anything to do with your CRT now does it so lets get back on that

I didn't insulted you. I'm suggesting you read twice what you are sending.
You keep saying Gojo and Ryu were exceptional
But Uro who also has less CE than Yuta can keep up with Ryus output.

Anyway stop replying if you keep repeating More CE ≠ speed which was never my argument in the first place.

Cursed Energy output effects speed not having more Cursed Energy. I can't put it any simpler words than this.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Not many people scale to Hakari and Kashimo anyways. Unless something in the upcoming chapters proves otherwise, Yuta (and everyone that scales to him) and Maki (and everyone that scales to her) don’t even scale to Hakari’s physical stats in Jackpot as Maki lacks the feats or scaling, and Yuta (and Gege outside of the manga) go under the notion that Hakari is stronger than him.
In context we know Hakari is a physical based fighter with Jackpot mega amping his stats and output.

Saying the 3 of them are heavy hitters doesn’t necessarily mean they all have relative stats since, as far as we know, Hakari doesn’t have any hax and is pure stats while Yuta and Maki have lower stats but more hax, so for them to all be considered ‘on the same tier’ should mean Hakari’s stats are high enough to make up for the hax discrepancy.

As for Maki, the notion that she scales to 15F Sukuna completely ignores the context of the fight. Sukuna was quite literally just playing around with them and was adjusting his speed to match them as they fought. He most likely wasn’t going all out.

Even ignoring that, Maki’s physical movements may scale her to or below Mach 3, but her Toji level precog allows her to “effectively fight” on a faster level with the upper limit of what they can’t react to being Awakened Gojo’s Hollow Purple and Uraume’s Dead Calm. So far, nothing below those 2 tiers of attack speed is probably faster than her precog ‘amped’ combat speed

But as for Sukuna not even using his full speed in that encounter

For one, he states that if something entertains him, he ‘throws it a bone’

And he’s done this from as far back as the first finger bearer, Megumi, Jogo, Yorozu etc trying to scale himself back to match his opponent if they interest him. And Maki’s overall strength interested pre bath Sukuna at the moment.

But look at the whole thing in context.

First Sukuna says he can easily kill Yuji (who scales to Maki)

Then Sukuna using about the same speed he was initially fighting Yuji with gets tagged by Maki

Maki and Yuji

Decide to speed up, and Sukuna can pretty much handle both of their amped speeds at the same time while not seeming seriously pressed at all

Not really taking the fight seriously and just having fun, he’s still casually keeping up with them

But the real proof of the differences in speed comes next. Note how Yuji, Maki and Sukuna are all in line with each other horizontally on the street.

Uraume pops out, flexes their CE and makes their presence known so it isn’t a sneak attack. Yuji, Maki and Sukuna all notice at the same time

Whole area gets AOE nuked

A still casual 15F Sukuna dodged the attack from the same distance Yuji and Maki were at, while both of them get tagged by the attack. And again, all 3 were alerted of their presence at the same time. So Sukuna is clearly faster than Yuji and Maki.

This also scales Uraume’s speed, or at the very least attack speed above Yuji and Maki’s combat speed and even Maki’s precog amped “effective” combat speed, so whatever happens with Uraume vs Hakari doesn’t contradict the speed scale since they’re both above Maki and Yuji. Can’t even use the fact that it was an AOE attack as an anti feat since Sukuna was able to clear the entire attack from the same distance away they were at.

 

[Shey]

Ngl

I just asked a lot of people

CE is never stated to amplify speed in the series

Who are these people?

CE output doesn't affect speed, not to any noticable extent, here are some examples to name a few: Naobito stated to be faster than Yuta and at the very least relative with much less CE, Gojo (much) faster than Yuta with less CE, Gojo being comparable to 20F Sukuna speed who has more than twice the CE pool of Yuta/Gojo, Yuji reacting to and fighting Higuruma with no CE at all whos stated to be Grade 1 level. Hakari being stated to have access to infinite CE yet still getting tagged by Kashimo (who has vastly less CE than Jackpot Hakari and was wary of Hakari before Jackpot started) and not blitzing. Finally there is no noticeable speed difference between Hakari in and outside of Jackpot mode when it should grant him a massive speed amp if your statement was true.

Besides, Sukuna states clearly his movement is not impacted.

I said CE Output not CE Capacity.
And Jackpot Hakari does in fact get much faster than his Base when going all out.


Hampered CE output will reduce Physical abilities and Sukuna does in fact state that his physical movement is affected, just not as bad as his CE output.

Yuji also never fights Higuruma with his CE so that example is completely null as there's no way you can prove he wouldn't have increased statistics with it

 

[YeahhBoyee]

Yeah I completely see you haven't even read the series properly. That's not base Hakari. That's jackpot Hakari from Charles fight

Uh the page you linked happens after that, i dont like being strawmanned so i'll bite on that. This happened between the panel i linked and the panel you linked. But i completely see you haven't even read the series properly.

Most of the rest you said is just non-arguments and hostile comments like "Thanks for Conceding" or ignoring my arguments, like a manga panel stating Ryu is the highest output user in history after you asked me to prove his output is an exception, so you can pretend to not have gotten completely embarassed.

But for now i will repeat what i said here.

Also would appreciate if we got back on topic, i shut down the idea that cursed energy gives you a notable speed amp and you come in trying to start a debate about output and insulting me. Doesn't really have anything to do with your CRT now does it so lets get back on that

Can we please get back on-topic now? This CRT doesn't need to be six pages long.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Uh the page you linked happens after that, i dont like being strawmanned so i'll bite on that. This happened between the panel i linked and the panel you linked. But i completely see you haven't even read the series properly.

Most of the rest you said is just non-arguments and hostile comments like "Thanks for Conceding" or ignoring my arguments, like a manga panel stating Ryu is the highest output user in history after you asked me to prove his output is an exception, so you can pretend to not have gotten completely embarassed.

But for now i will repeat what i said here.

Already even before Hakari started Fighting Kashimo we can clearly see his CE around him which comes from his previous fight against Charles which shows he was already amped from that fight. Only one who is ignoring what's written in manga is you without reading the fight properly.

Already suggested don't reply if you keep arguing More CE ≠ More Speed which was never my argument. You made a claim for Gojo was exceptional. Didn't sent the scans so that's just conceding from you.

Can we please get back on-topic now? This CRT doesn't need to be six pages long.

You already brought up arguments like more CE ≠ speed which wasn't even my arguments. You should stop with these irrelevant things.

 

[YeahhBoyee]

I said CE Output not CE Capacity.
And Jackpot Hakari does in fact get much faster than his Base when going all out.

I'd dispute that part about Hakari. "Going all out" seems to imply he held back at one point which i already disagree with.

Hampered CE output will reduce Physical abilities and Sukuna does in fact state that his physical movement is affected, just not as bad as his CE output.

He stated that he can move normally.

CE output may affect speed, i am not saying it's a non factor, it's just not a significant enough factor to warrant Sukuna being anywhere near 10% normal speed.

Yuji also never fights Higuruma with his CE so that example is completely null as there's no way you can prove he wouldn't have increased statistics with it

If CE was a significant speed amp then Yuji would not be able to fight a Grade 1 Sorcerer without it because Higuruma would have access to physically reinforce his speed with CE while Yuji could not. Otherwise Higuruma and every Grade 1 Sorcerer would be borderline fodder for Yuji which would **** up the powerscaling.

Anyways glad to have discussed this with you but i would like to get back to the original topic. If you disagree with the idea that CE doesn't amp speed by a significant amount then i guess you could provide evidence? You have argued a shaky point very well but i don't know of any direct evidence that it does, so i'd like to see that.

And then afterwards we could move on with the original topic of the CRT lol. I did not expect to start a whole new discussion, my bad

 

[Shey]

Sukuna did move but the slash across Ryu's face was not a physical one, it literally manifested across his face.

We see even Gojo in his fight vs Sukuna get shot by cleave which sails passed infinity. Dodging cleave is extremely hard and Mahoraga needed an adaption to even deflect his cleave. Yet both were capable of handling him in CqC. Sukuna's movement isn't 1 to 1 correlated with his cleave.

Also, yes, Sukuna is faster than Ryu. So Ryu was facing a faster person with spawn on target CT combo. I don't see how you're using the niche scenario try try and downscale Yuta, especially when Yuta beat Ryu + two other special grades in the same fight and is blatantly being treated as stronger vs Sukuna than the likes of Hakari and Maki

Yeah I was wrong on this one.

Anywho be back tomorrow gotta rest.

Can you not? If the Slash was shot out Sukuna would have no need to physically move his entire being to and past Ryu coupled with the fact that Sukuna has NEVER used Cleave outside of DE without making Physical contact.

What Sukuna shot at Mahoraga was Dismantle and he even verbalizes it.

This isn't a matter of not seeing the move, because
1. It was Cleave not Dismantle and evidence indicates he requires physical contact to perform Cleave which can clearly be inferred from Sukuna being in a position that depicts that he ran past and slapped him across the face.
2. He attacked so fast that Ryu could not even make any form of movement before or after the attack had struck him meaning physically 15F is indubitably faster than Ryu who is superior to Yuta when it comes to Physical Capabilities.

Scaling Yuji and Maki who fought a casual suppressed 15F to a Full Powered 15F who is objectively not full powered would mean scaling Maki and Yuji to blitz levels of Speed above Yuta Okkotsu and scaling them to Satoru Gojo

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Not many people scale to Hakari and Kashimo anyways. Unless something in the upcoming chapters proves otherwise, Yuta (and everyone that scales to him) and Maki (and everyone that scales to her) don’t even scale to Hakari’s physical stats in Jackpot as Maki lacks the feats or scaling, and Yuta (and Gege outside of the manga) go under the notion that Hakari is stronger than him.
In context we know Hakari is a physical based fighter with Jackpot mega amping his stats and output.

Saying the 3 of them are heavy hitters doesn’t necessarily mean they all have relative stats since, as far as we know, Hakari doesn’t have any hax and is pure stats while Yuta and Maki have lower stats but more hax, so for them to all be considered ‘on the same tier’ should mean Hakari’s stats are high enough to make up for the hax discrepancy.

As for Maki, the notion that she scales to 15F Sukuna completely ignores the context of the fight. Sukuna was quite literally just playing around with them and was adjusting his speed to match them as they fought. He most likely wasn’t going all out.

Even ignoring that, Maki’s physical movements may scale her to or below Mach 3, but her Toji level precog allows her to “effectively fight” on a faster level with the upper limit of what they can’t react to being Awakened Gojo’s Hollow Purple and Uraume’s Dead Calm. So far, nothing below those 2 tiers of attack speed is probably faster than her precog ‘amped’ combat speed

But as for Sukuna not even using his full speed in that encounter

For one, he states that if something entertains him, he ‘throws it a bone’

And he’s done this from as far back as the first finger bearer, Megumi, Jogo, Yorozu etc trying to scale himself back to match his opponent if they interest him. And Maki’s overall strength interested pre bath Sukuna at the moment.

But look at the whole thing in context.

First Sukuna says he can easily kill Yuji (who scales to Maki)

Then Sukuna using about the same speed he was initially fighting Yuji with gets tagged by Maki

Maki and Yuji

Decide to speed up, and Sukuna can pretty much handle both of their amped speeds at the same time while not seeming seriously pressed at all

Not really taking the fight seriously and just having fun, he’s still casually keeping up with them

But the real proof of the differences in speed comes next. Note how Yuji, Maki and Sukuna are all in line with each other horizontally on the street.

Uraume pops out, flexes their CE and makes their presence known so it isn’t a sneak attack. Yuji, Maki and Sukuna all notice at the same time

Whole area gets AOE nuked

A still casual 15F Sukuna dodged the attack from the same distance Yuji and Maki were at, while both of them get tagged by the attack. And again, all 3 were alerted of their presence at the same time. So Sukuna is clearly faster than Yuji and Maki.

This also scales Uraume’s speed, or at the very least attack speed above Yuji and Maki’s combat speed and even Maki’s precog amped “effective” combat speed, so whatever happens with Uraume vs Hakari doesn’t contradict the speed scale since they’re both above Maki and Yuji. Can’t even use the fact that it was an AOE attack as an anti feat since Sukuna was able to clear the entire attack from the same distance away they were at.

Yeah completely forgot Sukuna adjusting his speed and power to play with his victims.
Yeah agree with this explanation.