ToAru Physical Stats Revision (Low to Mid Tiers) - Let's Fix That Scaling

[DontTalkDT]

So the ToAru (physical) Low-Tiers are currently ranked 8-B. This comes from a feat, which had already been decided to be removed in a past thread. Hence we have a lot of characters which need new physical stats. Furthermore, many revisions were apparently applied without properly updating the people that scale. I will fix that, too.
Before we get to that, though, I will need to go through a number of back up calcs that exist and explain why I will not fall back on those.

Stuff I Wouldn't Use​

Miracle Survival​

We have this calc of Yumiya surviving an 8-B explosion, with explosives stuffed into her mouth. She survives that, which should give her 8-B durability, right? Ehhhh.... I'm sceptical on that.
We don't see how she survives it or how heavily injured she is afterwards. It's the classical trope where everyone thinks the character died, but it happened off-screen so they somehow survived without any explanation.

However, these bombs were made by Frenda, an incredibly skilled expert in explosives and an experienced hitman. You can be plenty sure that her explosives are designed to be absolutely lethal to a regular human... in fact, Frenda regularly fights people with superpowers, so they probably are designed to be way more powerful than that. Yumiya is not known to have any ability that would make her super durable, although one can argue that her feats prove otherwise. (In fact, as you will see later on, she will get superhuman stats in this revision anyway)
However, Frenda and Yumiya can physically fight each other just fine, meaning they scale. And I think it's hard to argue that Frenda would make bombs weak enough to not kill someone as strong as herself, when she herself is not counted amongst the people with powers that actually make them exceptionally durable. Heck, as you can see in their fight, Frenda can't even tank guns and her explosives are definitely stronger than that.
If you now wish to invoke "guns are just overhyped in fiction" and that Frenda not designing bombs that wouldn't kill herself is speculation... well, there is also evidence that they should kill people on her level. Even just the explosive tape she uses to ignite her bombs is enough to blow her own lower body away. And, honestly, Frenda seemed relatively confident she won that fight.

If that isn't enough let's also talk about her reappearance. Here, we see her again and are told more details about her survival.

Notice how her lower jaw and big parts of her face were blown off by the explosives. I will go ahead and say that it doesn't make much sense that those would be blown off, but her brain would be fine. Like, if she had the durability for an explosion in her mouth to not destroy her brain, then it also shouldn't destroy her jaw. Unless she has a weird partial durability that applies to one part of her head, but not the other.

Then Academy City medicine is mentioned. That's actually notable to keep in mind. Academy City can even replace lost parts of a brain via medicine (see this or this). Basically, even when blown to bits, the right doctors could have fixed her, meaning that we have almost no real limit on how badly she was injured, making durability scaling questionable.

Most importantly, though, it's noted that she would have died if Yobou hadn't slipped in and saved her. Yobou has telekinetic powers and it's not hard to imagine that he could potentially use them to suppress an explosion or maybe to rip the explosives out of her mouth in the last second, or anything like that. We don't know how she survived, as it happened off-screen, so especially with Yobou involved I see a very real possibility that it wasn't just due to her durability.

Hence I'm, in total, not comfortable with basing dozens of characters' durability ratings on this feat alone.

This is the only major feat that would prevent any downgrades at all, but let's get to some of the other feats I'm not going to be using as well.

Crater in Questionable Floor​

There is this 9-B+ feat, which would theoretically scale to a lot of people. The problem? The calc assumes the floor is made out of marble, but scales the crater size from the anime where the floor is made out of wood. I.e. it makes use of tertiary canon in a way that doesn't follow our rules on the matter.

Steel Thickness Matters​

Then there is a feat of a guy surviving getting slammed through some metal. That one is calced as 8-C, but... the calc just seems wrong.
As limited as my understanding of engineering is, I'm quite certain it uses yield strength wrong. By the method the calc uses the thickness of the steel does not factor into the result of the calc. It predicts that a 5mm thick steel plate is equally hard to bend as a 1m thick steel plate. That just can't be right. I'm fairly sure there must be some reference thickness to that.
Additionally, the scaling of the depth doesn't seem correct. The perspective is playing a trick, there, I believe. The calc assumes that hole is 90cm deep, with Seiki buried inside. However, later shots make it seem a lot less deep.

New Stats​

With this we get to feats that we can use and who it scales to.

Tree Breaking​

I redid the calc for Arei's tree braking and got a solid wall level. I think that will be the feat that would scale to many characters in some capacity and should be a solid basis for their rating. First, let's discuss the scaling, as that will alter the stat a bit.

Characters who scale directly above this would be Komaba, as he's using Hard Taping. That's a strength amplification technology that Arei herself uses to get stronger than the state in which she did her feat.
Arei's own superhuman strength probably comes from being a trained ninja, although she isn't part of a ninja clan currently. I would hence assume that a properly trained ninja such as Oumi should scale to her. Same then goes for Hattori and Kuruwa. Tsurigane would scale as well, even if she doesn't have full training and IMO did worse against Kuroko than Arei. Kihara Enshuu would get it for scaling above Oumi. Kumokawa and Kihara Kagun would then get it in turn. Sugitani for being a ninja, too.

And that brings us to Kuroko already and with her the pathway to scaling to main characters.
Kuroko fought Arei and could tank blows from her even if she had a hard time. Arei even used some muscle enhancement equipment there, but on the other hand she was already injured from a prior fight that she lost.
Hence Kuroko downscales from Arei's feat. Enough to be still 9-B? I'm not 100% sure.
Personally, I would recommend "9-C+, likely 9-B" for Kuroko and those who get their stats by scaling through her. Edit: Given more supportive evidence that was given, I have personally agreed to just leave it at a flat 9-B. The calc is decently above baseline anyway.

Now, Kuroko and Misaka frequently have their comedic struggles, so they should be comparable, so she physically gets there.
Touma's stronger than Misaka so he gets it.
Accelerator can tank some punches from Touma, so he gets it in durability. However, I see little reason it would apply to his (unboosted) Striking Strength, so that might go down to Human level.
Hamazura took punches from Touma and harmed him, so he gets it.
So with that, we have all the main characters physically at that level and, needless to say, that scales around.

If I don't give evidence for why the following characters scale, I use the scaling chain already on the profile.

• Agnese in AP and Durability scaling from Touma. I don't think her Striking Strength would scale, as she only hit Touma with her magic IIRC.
• AIM Burst in Striking Strength and Durability. Physically stronger than Misaka.
• Etzali for matching Touma.
• Frenda for being superior to Misaka.
• Kamisato for being Touma's mirror image.
• Kihara Amata for being above Touma.
• Kihara Yuuitsu from fighting Kuroko. (See ToAru Kagaku no Mental Out Chapter 19)
• Patricia due to Sample Soggoth scaling.
• Leivinia due to scaling to Patricia.
• Misaka Worst due to literally being a Misaka clone.
• Mugino due to scaling to Hamazura.
• Tsuchimikado via being superior to Touma.
• Teshio via being superior to Tsuchimikado.
• Awaki via being comparable to Teshio and Kuroko.
• Mitori via being comparable to Kuroko.
• Oriana due to being comparable to Touma and Tsuchimikado (Note: Magic becomes separated from physicals, as it's now different tiers... we get to that)
• Rensa due to being above Touma.
• Opendays due to being above Touma.
• Salome due to being stronger than Misaka.
• Saronia can fight Touma, but not well. I would hence put her likely street level, possibly wall level.
• Sisters are Misaka clones.
• St. Germain due to being Touma. (Other key gets downgraded)
• Stephanie for being stronger than Touma and Hamazura. (Probably... gonna leave her scaling justification alone for now)
• Thor for being comparable to Touma.
• Yomikawa for being superior to Touma.
• Yumiya for being comparable to Frenda.

Who Thought This Woman Was That Important?​

Our second big cluster originates from Oriana Thomson. She currently has a City Block level calc linked, but a recalc from Fanta increased that to 7-C. However, that is only for her magic, physically she would belong to the prior section due to Tsuchimikado scaling.
However, while it's only magic for her, people scale to her in ways that it becomes more. (Again, I will use the scaling chains already on profiles without further explanation)

• Stiyl is said to be comparable to her in terms of magic.
• Tatemiya scales to Stiyl's magic both magically and in durability & SS (with magic), which is how we get to physical stats.
• Itsuwa then scales from him and becomes the major scaling source.
• Bayloupe is above Itsuwa.
• Cynthia is above Itsuwa as well.
• Emilie is above Itsuwa.
• Fenrir in AP for matching Oriana.
• Strikers is above Itsuwa.
• Jörmund in AP for being comparable to Stiyl
• Lessar for being superiar to Bayloupe.
• Mark Space for being comparable to Stiyl and Oriana, as well as some cross scaling with Wyss.
• Wyss due to being comparable to Mark.
• The Pope categorically, I guess.
• Shutaura in durability due to Stiyl.
• Terra scaling to Itsuwa.
• Electra in AP for overpowering Stiyl.
• Vase in AP for defeating Tatemiya.
• Vasilia via Oriana scaling.

Only My Railgun​

Misaka's railgun was upgraded to" 8-A+, likely 7-C" recently. However, that hasn't been applied to everyone that scales yet. Who is missing?

• Anna Sprengel's durability as she tanked all Misaka had.
• Five Over in AP and Dura
• Umidori by scaling to the 5 Over.
• Salome for destroying one of Misaka's railgun shots.
• Therestina for matching it.
• Mio in durability for tanking it. AP wise she would get scaling to Misaka's iron sand stuff.

Junko Scaling​

Junko can be downgraded to 8-C via this calc, instead of what the other characters land at.
This then also applies to Acid and Ryouu who matched her.

Others​

A number of characters need special treatment.

Vento needs to be downgraded, but her old version had stats based on her own feats which are higher than what she would get otherwise. Based on this (or this calc if the revision is accepted) she would get 9-A durability.
I'm a little uncertain what to do with her AP, though. Wall level would probably be the minimum.

Amakusa members. I'm not sure what I should do about their keys as individuals. I would put the idea of converting this into a team profile out there, if we can't get any proper stats for them individually.

Angelene. I have no idea why she has Street Level Striking Strength of all things. Downgrade this to regular human.

Kakine. If we assume him tanking Accels attacks is due to Dark Matter, I have no idea which feats he would have when not using Dark Matter. So if nobody else has an idea, I guess he just gets human stats.

Mitori. I probably forgot to remove the 8-A stats... yeah, she should just be 8-B.

Kinuhata. She could protect against Mitori's stuff including her dolls. So durability wise she gets 8-B. What I'm uncertain about is what to do for her AP, as I don't think her Offense Armor is offensively and defensively equal. I guess at least Wall level for this given this.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Okay. Time to bite the bullet.

Kihara Amata for being above Touma.

First-and-foremost. I'll argue this.

Why is Amata "above" Touma? Is it because he is a martial artist? Or... what? His profile says he is "Superior to Kamijou Touma in strength and fighting skill" but doesn't why. Also, there is a very, very simple counter to this point.

Accelerator. Ripped. His. Hair. Off. His. Scalp.

Kihara tried to shake Accelerator from his fist, but it was not working. As he did, Accelerator formed a loose fist with his other hand and swung it at Kihara’s face.

It produced a foolish slapping noise and caused almost no pain.

Accelerator grabbed the hair on the side of Kihara’s head just above the ear and forcibly ripped it out.

“Gwaaaaaaaaaaah!?” screamed Kihara as blood sprayed out.

Accelerator had pulled it all out at once like a weed, so the scalp had ripped up along with the hair. The bundle of hair in Accelerator’s hand was thinly held together by skin and pink flesh like a clump of grass held together by dirt.

Amata. Was. Fearful. Of. Accelerator. Attempting. To. Rip. Off. His. Ear.

As Kihara’s expression crumbled, Accelerator’s mouth split open in a smile.

He was fighting almost exclusively on instinct and his expression was one of extremely primitive exhilaration.

“You ******* brat!!”

Kihara pushed the side of Accelerator’s head with one hand and tried to move back.

However, Accelerator grabbed onto Kihara like a zombie and pushed him to the floor.

“You ****!!” shouted Kihara, but Accelerator did not have the language comprehension to understand it.

Kihara tried to shout out “Don’t underestimate me!!”, but Accelerator tried to grab his ear and rip it off.

“Ohhh!?”

Kihara frantically shook his head to avoid the boy’s fingers, punched him in the face, and escaped from underneath him. He then rolled across the floor.

Accelerator. Broke. His. Nose. With. A. Punch.

A roar rang out.

Kihara could feel slight cracking feelings transferred up his arm.

And yet Accelerator did not stop in the slightest.

“Ooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!”

Despite having his face smashed, he sent a counter punch at Kihara’s face. Kihara’s nose broke and pain exploded out. That strike had had the boy’s entire strength behind it. Kihara could tell without having it explained to him.

(…Gh…bh!!)

Accelerator, at this point, should be physically comparable to his Pre-Headshot self - If not outright physically weaker considering Accelerator's brain injury, his lack of physical coordination without his cane and that it had been less than a month for him in verse time - who Touma, despite being injured by Mikoto's assault earlier and Accelerator's own attacks, was more than capable of harming him with his jabs alone.

Granted, Accelerator does mysteriously get physically stronger to the point that Touma and him could directly punch-clash with each other

The bizarre sound cutting just barely above his head sent a chill down Kamijou’s spine and he attempted to approach while crouched down.

“What the hell are you doing!?” he shouted as he did so. “Sure, Gremlin did a lot of damage at Hawaii, Baggage City, and Tokyo, but you hold the position of the strongest! Did you really take enough damage to warrant killing people!?”

“I don’t have a reason like that.” Accelerator lightly clenched his fist. “When I was using my power, I didn’t have any crazy ideas about saving the world or protecting mankind, you dumbass!!”

A great roar split the air as fist struck fist. - NT10

But Amata was long-dead after that point, so it doesn't apply to him. So long story short... Considering the fact that a powerless and adrenaline-fuelled crippled Accelerator could rough up Amata, I don't think he should scale above Touma.

Rensa due to being above Touma.

Disagree with this as well.

Rensa #28, and by extension #29 as they share the same body, got overwhelmed by Touma in their encounter

[“The situation has indeed grown concerning. I will now kill Kamijou Touma to correct the course of the plan.”

Rensa’s back opened, the giant “flower” spread out, and then it closed once more.

A blast of wind burst out.

This was Academy City’s #1 power. She had created that wind via vector control.

However…

“If you think you can…”

Before the mass of 120 m/s wind could reach him, Kamijou stepped right up next to Rensa.

“…then prove it!!”

He threw a powerful punch toward her face.

Rensa immediately moved her arm to block the punch, losing control of the wind in the process. She stepped back slightly and the “knitting needles” spread out once more. She was changing the characteristics of the output point. She quickly manipulated magnetism to catch a coin that was lying on the road.

It was obvious what this meant.

Kamijou slammed his fist into Rensa’s wrist to throw off her aim.

An orange beam shot out a moment later, but it flew in a harmless direction.

“You can’t use multiple Level 5 powers at once.”

Despite the fact that she could use the #1’s power, she had not attacked repeatedly at greater than the speed of sound. Perhaps due to her cyborg body, she did not use extremely powerful magnetism to create an iron sand sword and she did not take control of cars, security robots, or other electronics.

Unless her defenses fell below a certain point, she tried to attack as much as possible with nothing but projectiles.

That meant…

“The lag from switching powers is always the same, so I can read your timing when you switch.”

He slammed his forehead into hers at close range and Rensa staggered backwards. Her back struck a metal dumpster and she bent forward to provide enough space for the giant “flower” to burst from her back. She stuck her hand into the dumpster and pulled out what looked like a television remote.

But just as Rensa pointed it toward Kamijou, he forcefully kicked the remote upwards. It shot from her hand and flew through the air.

“You can only do the same things as the Level 5s!! You aren’t a Level 5 yourself! Compared to those monsters that can do almost anything on their own, you’re nothing!!”

The “knitting needles” spread out and contracted once more. Kamijou evaded a beam of light and sent a fist flying back in response.

Rensa’s eyes moved irregularly.

She may have been calculating the optimal method of defense or course of evasion.

Yet…

Kamijou’s fist slammed into the center of Rensa’s face as if he was trying to crush it.] - TAMI NT7 Chapter 3 Part 10

And...

(…?)

Something felt wrong.

It had been one of the cleanest hits he had ever gotten, but Kamijou felt as if Rensa had decided taking that clean hit to the face was the optimal choice out of all her different options.

(Don’t tell me…!!)

It happened immediately afterwards.

Rensa’s metallic reddish-purple and pink arm shot out as if crossing paths with Kamijou’s fist. She unhesitatingly grabbed Kamijou’s throat and lifted him up like a crane.

“Bh…gh…!!”

He could not breathe. She may have been cutting off the flow of blood too because he felt a pain like his head was swelling up. As Rensa watched Kamijou kick his feet around, she spoke.

“I have decided I have a disadvantage in an esper battle, so I will instead engage you in a physical battle using my mechanical body. My physical body may not be any tougher than a normal human’s, but I can control my pain sensors.”

#28 only got the upper hand due to her catching Touma off-guard due to her unique nature.

And with #29...

“Cut them loose!!”

Realizing what Kamijou meant, Kakine immediately severed his wings from his main body.

Kamijou charged forward.

He swung his right fist toward Rensa’s face from behind the wings still floating in midair.

“Shit!?”

Rensa frantically protected her face with both arms, but then Kakine targeted her lower gut with a new wing he had created.

She didn't want to get punched by Touma. So... Comparable but above Touma.

Opendays due to being above Touma.

... Okay, this is going to sound weird, but... These two never actually met each other or even knows about the other's existence.

The entire encounter happened during an illusion that an old man was under.

“If that isn’t enough, it isn’t worth explaining further. With wind, temperature change, and static electricity, it’s not too hard to control once you get used to it. Having it spread in the direction you want and ensuring a safe zone can be handled with a single program. During their sweet dreams, everyone just stands around. Do you understand now?”

An illusion.

It was simple enough to say, but the level of technology required to show a certain person the image you wanted them to see was unimaginable.

“It’s still not easy, though. The chemicals themselves have names like Red Fury 03 and Blue Fear 07, so anyone with a middle school level knowledge of English can tell they increase certain emotions. The real trick is combining them in the right way to give the experience you want. When you also want to affect multiple people at the same time, it starts to be something like cooking. Well, just like how what you eat affects how you smell, the substances in your blood have external effects, so it isn’t like I don’t get any kind of hint.”

If what Kihara Ransuu was saying was true, how long had Weissland Strainikov been seeing an illusion? Since he had confronted Saflee Opendays? Since he had spoken with Útgarða-Loki? Or had that conversation actually occurred within the “experience” and they had both been seeing an illusion?

And the Kihara himself was under an illusion by Útgarða-Loki... who was also under an illusion by Ransuu... And when Enshuu found them, they were in the same room together, both knocked out.

She moved through the underground passage and entered a high-level resort hotel. She went through the lobby where no guards were present, took the elevator, reached the highest level, and opened the door where the keyhole was destroyed. This was the remains of a battlefield, where Kihara Ransuu and Útgarða-Loki had fought.

The pile of papers were thrown all over the place. Even now, those two important people were still lying on the floor. However, Kihara Enshuu didn’t care about that. Actually, Enshuu did feel bothered about leaving the "Kihara" Ransuu alone. But at the current moment, she needed to prioritize her actions as a Kihara.

So everything about what Weissland "experienced" might've been double faked. Triple? And most damming of all... When Maria mentioned Opendays in passing, he had no idea who she was talking about.

“No. My heart was stopped, but it didn’t leave any kind of arrhythmia. Oh, and I’m email friends with that mixed martial artist. That ninja disappeared somewhere, so I don’t know about her. But she wasn’t the type to die easily.”

“?”

Kamijou frowned.

So... Opendays shouldn't scale to Touma (directly) in the slightest... I honestly don't think she should scale to anybody, in fact. She didn't help in the slightest in the Enshuu fight - as Maria was the main person who fought her. Nor did she even share a direct scene with that ninja-loli.

... Granted, NT4's scaling is pretty weird, ngl.

Oumi got one-shotted by Maria, Enshuu and Maria could exchange blows with one another, Kagun is comparable to Enshuu - and Thor is the second strongest in GERMLIN, per his words, and Touma could endure an extended beatdown from him after the clusterfrick that was NT10 for Touma with minimum time for rest and recover.

Kihara Yuuitsu from fighting Kuroko. (See ToAru Kagaku no Mental Out Chapter 19)https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Salome

Salome due to being stronger than Misaka.

Salome and Yuiitsu are relative to each other, right?

Wanna point this out cuz... Salome entrusted Touma to handle getting beat down by her for thirty seconds.

Mass Murderer Salome raised her head a little.

Then she shouted to Kamijou.

“I’ve got a bit of business to take care of! Kamijou-chan, buy me some time. Thirty seconds should do!!”

“Eh? Ehh!?”

He quickly looked over in time to see the raincoat girl kissing the pocket watch hanging from her neck.

That must have been a sign of resolve for her.

Then she jumped straight back so Kamijou moved out in front of her. This naturally sent him toward Kihara Yuiitsu who was pursuing Salome.

They did not even speak a word.

They only exchanged a momentary glance.

“Do you wish for a-…”

“!!”

As she casually swept her hand over, Kamijou’s fist struck her wrist in the opposite direction. It was not as nice as a parry, but he had to divert the path of her arm if he could.

But no change came over Yuiitsu’s expression.

She twisted her entire body in the same direction as her redirected hand and her knee jabbed sharply into Kamijou’s side. The heavy blow brought him to a stop. The single blow took out his diaphragm and forced the oxygen from his lungs.

“Oh…gh!!”

His mind went almost entirely blank, but he could not allow himself to lose consciousness.

Kihara Yuiitsu herself had said she let the shockwaves of multiple blows collide in her opponent’s body to create deadly bubbles inside their blood vessels.

If she used that, it was all over for a flesh and blood human like him.

“…!!!!!!”

He forced down the rising urge to vomit and pressed his feet to the ground as they threatened to rise into the air. And in so doing, he pinned down the bottom of Yuiitsu’s lab coat as it fluttered around from her spin.

He had no idea what happened next.

He just knew that some kind of impact struck his entire body. He felt like he was enveloped in blows of unclear number and direction, as if he had been thrown in a metal drum which was being beaten with metal bats. His vision was spinning around, so he guessed he himself was spinning vertically through the air.

His back struck the ground with a dull sound of impact.

His sense of time returned.

“Gah!! Agheh!? Khah!!”

“Oh?”

Kihara Yuiitsu sounded lightly confused.

She sounded like someone who had finished cleaning the kitchen and then found an oil stain on the back of the gas range. She had to have analyzed the situation and discovered that the foot on her lab coat had shifted the blows from their calculated positions, but there was no powerful wave of emotion in her voice.

Instead, she made a further barrage.

Her high heel came down like a stake as it targeted Kamijou on the ground.

He rolled to get as far away as possible, but…

“Do you wish for a new world?”

“…!! Goddammit!!”

While lying on his side, Kamijou used his arms and legs to hop over like a shrimp and an all-erasing power tore into the spot he had just vacated. The sight of the gouged-out dirt was enough to feel a chill.

He somehow managed to get back on his feet, but there was nothing more he could do.

Imagine Breaker was useless against World Rejecter and he was outmatched when it came to pure martial arts as well. Kamijou had no way of holding back Kihara Yuiitsu.

However…

“Sorry about the wait, Kamijou-chan. I’m all replenished. Great job lasting thirty seconds there.”

And... Touma could harm Yuiitsu while injured from her previous attacks.

Kamijou Touma and Kihara Yuiitsu’s gazes clashed.

And…

This time, they both sent out attacks.

Kamijou made a scooping uppercut.

Yuiitsu let a torrent of Sample Shoggoth erupt from her right wrist.

Both attacks hit, but that meant neither one was a clean hit. Kamijou’s right fist caught Yuiitsu’s jaw and Yuiitsu’s torrent swept Kamijou away.

“Ghh!!”

“Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!”

They both rolled back as if an explosion had occurred between them. Kamijou could not let this continue much longer. Especially when Kihara Yuiitsu seemed to be targeting Mikoto more than him.

So Yuiitsu, Salome and Touma should be relative to each other in AP/Dura. Skill is another topic entirely, but meh, it isn't important here. xD.

Teshio via being superior to Tsuchimikado.
Stephanie for being stronger than Touma and Hamazura. (Probably... gonna leave her scaling justification alone for now)
Yomikawa for being superior to Touma.

Yeah, so... Teshio is in a weird spot. She has a direct feat of being stronger than Tsuchimikado, but... Awaki could take her on... The same Awaki who was terrified of Kuroko and convinced that she couldn't win against her despite Kuroko being weakened by blood lost and her injuries.

Shirai Kuroko stood up.

Blood continued to gush from her wounds, staining her clothes and body. She grabbed a floor lamp and lowered her hands. She didn’t have any more strength to teleport.

However,

So what?

Shirai’s expression was saying: even without powers, I can beat you.

Shirai wanted to prove through her actions that there was no need for any special ability to beat the enemy.

As long as there was a firm belief.

Shirai Kuroko moved forward fearlessly.

Forward.

1 step, 2 steps, 3 steps.

She faltered, unable to maintain her balance. She couldn’t even lift the lamp, and could only drag it

However, that terrifying momentum of hers made Musujime back away.

Musujime let out a cry of shock.

Shirai was a terrifying person.

It didn’t matter whether she had powers or not. Regardless, Shirai was a terrifying person.

Musujime Awaki shielded her chest with the jacket that had only one sleeve left, sitting on the floor and backing away. She could have escaped quickly with Move Point, but she forgot about it. The fear and anxiety made her unable to calculate the coordinates. Her eyes could no longer see anything other than the slowly advancing Shirai Kuroko.

―I will lose.

Musujime Awaki made a baseless conclusion.

―I will lose. There is no reason, but I will definitely lose…

Shirai Kuroko was already right in front of her. Musujime, who was sitting on the ground, looked up, exchanging looks with Shirai, who was looking down.

The same Kuroko who is comparable to Mikoto... who Touma scales above her and Tsuchimikado who is comparable to him... Or I could be just spitting. Idk. I need a bit more time to gather my thoughts on this matter. kek.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

part #2, here we go.

Kamisato for being Touma's mirror image.

... Didn't Kamisato just get manhandled by Touma for their entire fight, though? To the point that-

“Pipe…dowwwwwn!!!!”

Kamijou’s forehead slammed into Kamisato’s. More due to having his brain shaken than the actual pain, Kamisato’s eyes rolled around in his head.

“…Kh…khah…!?”

He groaned and swung his body up to knock Kamijou off of him. Overwhelmed by the momentum, Kamijou rolled to the side and Kamisato began his counterattack. They switched between offense and defense again and again.

However, that did not last long.

After rolling a few times, Kamisato tried to climb on top again, but Kamijou bent one leg and placed the sole of his foot on Kamisato’s gut.

Then he extended his leg like a fully compressed spring.

Kamisato’s slender body was tossed into the air. This was the stairway landing, so he was thrown onto the stairs leading down.

“Ah.”

He was completely caught off guard and some dull sounds followed. Kamijou gasped for air as he got up and looked down the stairs where he saw someone collapsed like a broken doll.

When he saw the right hand still twitching, all restraint vanished within him.

He jumped down from the landing and stomped on that right hand. He pinned it to the floor.

Kamisato was seemingly incapacitated for a good few moments with a direct hit? And the only damage that he managed to land on Touma was-

“Why did you bring Patricia here?” he spat out. “You made the worst possible decision!! You went out of your way to set up a fight to the death between sisters! Did you think that was the most logical option? Were you stomping on their feelings to wear down our forces!?”

“…Shut up.”

Kamisato groaned from the ground with his right hand sealed.

“This is what she wanted!!”

A dull sound rang out. A pen in Kamisato’s hand had pierced through Kamijou’s shoe and into the top of his foot.

He was a normal high school boy through and through, but that did not mean he was powerless.

“!!”

Kamijou lost his balance due to the sudden pain. With the restraint on his right hand gone, Kamisato rolled to the side. After escaping danger, he kicked the pen that was still stabbed into Kamijou’s foot.

Via a surprise stab, which was literally the only hit that Kamisato landed on him? Like there is a fair argument for him on downscaling to Touma but nonetheless there is still a massive gap in performance between the two that is likely caused by Kamisato just being a normal person before WR came to his life and Touma just living on hard mode for all of his live(s), past and present.

Oriana due to being comparable to Touma and Tsuchimikado (Note: Magic becomes separated from physicals, as it's now different tiers... we get to that)

Would say that she has to downscale to Touma as well, for a few reasons.

First-and-foremost. When Oriana was talking and recounting the punch that Touma gave her, she-

“I can’t really say that…I’m completely uninjured…my face is a bit swollen, and
maybe even my heart may be punched through…”
Suddenly, her body jerked sideways.
Oriana was shaking her head, as if she was trying to prevent herself from falling
asleep, as her two hands pulled down the pants. At least she was wearing
panties, and as Oriana’s legs left the pants, her body was somewhat imbalanced.
“Will it affect the plan?”
“It won’t okay? I can tell. Just leave everything to this nee-chan.”

-well, more effected by Touma's punch then she had let on to Touma. And he is literally the only person that had dealt any form of damage to her, so he is the sole person responsible for this reaction.

Secondly. Once Touma landed a direct hit-

“Go back home, you stinking magician!!”
Kamijou shouted as he extended his fist towards Oriana.
Oriana, who was stunned, immediately regained her concentration and protected
her face.
“Shut up, amateur!”
Stiyl, who had fallen behind Kamijou, knocked the flame sword onto the ground.
With a loud explosive sound, a large and strong gust surged forward like a wall.
Kamijou, feeling the pressure come in from behind, lost his balance and missed
his target.
The fist passed through the gap in Oriana’s defense.
It hit somewhere slightly below the face—the middle of her chest.
Dong! It sounded like someone stamping hard onto the ground.
“Ke…Ah…AHHHHHH!!”
Oriana’s breathing was interrupted, as she backed off and fell. She couldn’t
breathe properly as she continued to roll backwards, trying to maintain the
distance. She wanted to tear a flashcard, but her mouth was trembling so much
that she couldn’t do it properly.
It was a direct hit.

-it did a lot of damage, nuff said... And of course, we all know that Touma was able to knock Oriana out with one punch after getting messed up by her magic.

With his shaky consciousness, Kamijou gritted his teeth.
Forcefully.
(HOW CAN I LET IT END HERE—!!!)
“GYA…AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!”
His legs finally started to move.
His vision that was tilted to the side was supported by the earth.
Oriana Thomson was just ahead.
She was about to swing her fist down.
“Wh…why!?”
Her eyes widened in surprise. Most likely, she hadn’t expected a counterattack.
Oriana, who was focusing on attacking, didn’t have time to set her defense up.
In his blurry consciousness, Kamijou Touma clenched his right fist in a refined
manner.
Forcefully, firmly, not willing to let go.
After that.
Both parties exchanged fists.
Kamijou Touma’s strike hit Oriana directly on the face.
The magician’s body rolled backwards in a forceful manner.

And... I think that is all the people that I think should just downscale to Touma.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Okay. Time to bite the bullet.

First-and-foremost. I'll argue this.

Why is Amata "above" Touma? Is it because he is a martial artist? Or... what? His profile says he is "Superior to Kamijou Touma in strength and fighting skill" but doesn't why. Also, there is a very, very simple counter to this point.

Accelerator. Ripped. His. Hair. Off. His. Scalp.


Amata. Was. Fearful. Of. Accelerator. Attempting. To. Rip. Off. His. Ear.


Accelerator. Broke. His. Nose. With. A. Punch.


Accelerator, at this point, should be physically comparable to his Pre-Headshot self - If not outright physically weaker considering Accelerator's brain injury, his lack of physical coordination without his cane and that it had been less than a month for him in verse time - who Touma, despite being injured by Mikoto's assault earlier and Accelerator's own attacks, was more than capable of harming him with his jabs alone.

Granted, Accelerator does mysteriously get physically stronger to the point that Touma and him could directly punch-clash with each other


But Amata was long-dead after that point, so it doesn't apply to him. So long story short... Considering the fact that a powerless and adrenaline-fuelled crippled Accelerator could rough up Amata, I don't think he should scale above Touma.

Scale him above Accelerator's basic durability then. Ends up with the same stats. I don't really mind which specific reasoning we use.

Disagree with this as well.

Rensa #28, and by extension #29 as they share the same body, got overwhelmed by Touma in their encounter

And...

#28 only got the upper hand due to her catching Touma off-guard due to her unique nature.

And with #29...

She didn't want to get punched by Touma. So... Comparable but above Touma.

So, from what you are saying I get that they still scale? Then I'm fine with that as well. Whether we use the word stronger or comparable does not matter to me.

... Okay, this is going to sound weird, but... These two never actually met each other or even knows about the other's existence.

The entire encounter happened during an illusion that an old man was under.


And the Kihara himself was under an illusion by Útgarða-Loki... who was also under an illusion by Ransuu... And when Enshuu found them, they were in the same room together, both knocked out.


So everything about what Weissland "experienced" might've been double faked. Triple? And most damming of all... When Maria mentioned Opendays in passing, he had no idea who she was talking about.


So... Opendays shouldn't scale to Touma (directly) in the slightest... I honestly don't think she should scale to anybody, in fact. She didn't help in the slightest in the Enshuu fight - as Maria was the main person who fought her. Nor did she even share a direct scene with that ninja-loli.

I guess we put her at 10-A then.

Salome and Yuiitsu are relative to each other, right?

Wanna point this out cuz... Salome entrusted Touma to handle getting beat down by her for thirty seconds.

And... Touma could harm Yuiitsu while injured from her previous attacks.

So Yuiitsu, Salome and Touma should be relative to each other in AP/Dura. Skill is another topic entirely, but meh, it isn't important here. xD.

Touma and Yuiitsu can scale to each other, but I'm not sure about Salome and Yuiitsu being comparable. Given, with Salome when we compare them is always relevant, too, seeing how much her power fluctuates by its very nature.

Anyway, as it stands they end up at the same level for lack of other feats.

Yeah, so... Teshio is in a weird spot. She has a direct feat of being stronger than Tsuchimikado, but... Awaki could take her on... The same Awaki who was terrified of Kuroko and convinced that she couldn't win against her despite Kuroko being weakened by blood lost and her injuries.



The same Kuroko who is comparable to Mikoto... who Touma scales above her and Tsuchimikado who is comparable to him... Or I could be just spitting. Idk. I need a bit more time to gather my thoughts on this matter. kek.

Consider that fighting skill is a factor in how the battle actually goes, too. I think they can just all be within the same ballpark.

part #2, here we go.

... Didn't Kamisato just get manhandled by Touma for their entire fight, though? To the point that-

Kamisato was seemingly incapacitated for a good few moments with a direct hit? And the only damage that he managed to land on Touma was-

Via a surprise stab, which was literally the only hit that Kamisato landed on him? Like there is a fair argument for him on downscaling to Touma but nonetheless there is still a massive gap in performance between the two that is likely caused by Kamisato just being a normal person before WR came to his life and Touma just living on hard mode for all of his live(s), past and present.

There is a massive skill gap for a start, but from how I read the fight they are sufficiently comparable for physical scaling. It's not like with some other people who Touma OHKOed.

Would say that she has to downscale to Touma as well, for a few reasons.

First-and-foremost. When Oriana was talking and recounting the punch that Touma gave her, she-

-well, more effected by Touma's punch then she had let on to Touma. And he is literally the only person that had dealt any form of damage to her, so he is the sole person responsible for this reaction.

Secondly. Once Touma landed a direct hit-

-it did a lot of damage, nuff said... And of course, we all know that Touma was able to knock Oriana out with one punch after getting messed up by her magic.


And... I think that is all the people that I think should just downscale to Touma.

I would say good enough to still get the same ratings.

 

[XDragnoir]

I redid the calc for Arei's tree braking and got a solid wall level.

We don't go around just adding new calcs for the same feat regardless if they're upgrades or downgrades, do a CGM thread to see which version (I am nearly sure this is the 3rd version) should be used.

Kuroko fought Arei and could tank blows from her even if she had a hard time. Arei even used some muscle enhancement equipment there, but on the other hand she was already injured from a prior fight that she lost.
Hence Kuroko downscales from Arei's feat. Enough to be still 9-B? I'm not 100% sure.
Personally, I would recommend "9-C+, likely 9-B" for Kuroko and those who get their stats by scaling through her.

First, I don't see much need for downscaling as Kuroko didn't get any serious injuries from their fight (at least from these scans, I don't remember much of this fight), it's just a matter of being considerably weaker, not a whole level below.

Second, if we do end up downscaling, her feat is more than 3x the baseline of 9B, so they should drop to 9B not to 9C+.

We have this calc of Yumiya surviving an 8-B explosion, with explosives stuffed into her mouth. She survives that, which should give her 8-B durability, right?

About this, what are the currently accepted calcs closest to that one?

 

[DontTalkDT]

We don't go around just adding new calcs for the same feat regardless if they're upgrades or downgrades, do a CGM thread to see which version (I am nearly sure this is the 3rd version) should be used.

Already did that, mine was approved.

First, I don't see much need for downscaling as Kuroko didn't get any serious injuries from their fight (at least from these scans, I don't remember much of this fight), it's just a matter of being considerably weaker, not a whole level below.

Second, if we do end up downscaling, her feat is more than 3x the baseline of 9B, so they should drop to 9B not to 9C+.

It's that she was considerably weaker and Arei went into that fight considerably injured. To the point that the injury was noted to affect her strength.

About this, what are the currently accepted calcs closest to that one?

You mean, which calcs that would apply to Yumiya's durability? Well, basically just what I have mentioned in the OP. Don't think we have anything above 9-B that would scale to her otherwise.
If you mean for Frenda's bombs, then no idea. I guess one could probably calc some random explosions of her to 9-A or so if one tried.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

So, from what you are saying I get that they still scale? Then I'm fine with that as well. Whether we use the word stronger or comparable does not matter to me.

Pretty much, but just on the comparable side instead of the stronger side.

I guess we put her at 10-A then.

Could we just delete her instead of going through the trouble? She only has the "generic" skilled H2H fighter stick without any special techniques, skills or experience that makes her "stand-out", imo, nor does she contribute anything to the scaling considering the things that I pointed out. At this point, she is essentially just a "no-name" mma fighter hit by the waifu-beam.

Touma and Yuiitsu can scale to each other, but I'm not sure about Salome and Yuiitsu being comparable. Given, with Salome when we compare them is always relevant, too, seeing how much her power fluctuates by its very nature.

Anyway, as it stands they end up at the same level for lack of other feats.

Sounds good, although, I do want to point out that the Salome that Yuiitsu clashed with-

“Kee hee hee!!”

Several dry sounds came in quick succession.

Salome was swinging both hands with enough force to tear apart the air and Kihara Yuiitsu used only her right leg. Without letting her foot touch the ground, she made a double and then triple kick.

Afterwards, feet could be heard sliding along the ground.

Surprisingly, it was Salome who was forced back.

The bottom of her double raincoats swayed like a clione.

Without even glancing at the raincoat mass murderer, Yuiitsu stared up at the right hand she held toward the moon.

-prior to Touma acting as a meat shield for 30 seconds was a... Well, I guess Base!Salome, since she already used her "boosted" might earlier and she hadn't got the chance to "re-stock" her strength, and Yuiitsu was capable of forcing her back... So... It would just end with a Touma~Yuiitsu~Salome scaling chain but with Yuiitsu being the "stronger" of the three, if that makes sense.

There is a massive skill gap for a start, but from how I read the fight they are sufficiently comparable for physical scaling. It's not like with some other people who Touma OHKOed.

I would say good enough to still get the same ratings.

Eh... Am raising a small objection with these two. Touma was still the "stronger" one with both of 'em. Already gave an example with Kamisato and how the main issue with him was World Rejector and nothing else, but I do want to point out that by the time that Stiyl woke up from being knocked unconscious by Oriana, Touma and her exchanged several blows and we later get a mention that once Stiyl came to "help" Touma was finally able to land a direct hit - implying that most if not all of Touma's attacks prior were dodged and he continuously suffered from Oriana's when he couldn't negate her magic or dodge her blows but it wasn't enough to knock him out.

Hence, I propose it would be better for them to get "At Most" ratings then direct ratings.

Already did that, mine was approved.

And I supported it.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

It's that she was considerably weaker and Arei went into that fight considerably injured. To the point that the injury was noted to affect her strength.

Eh? Kuroko still thought she would've won if she fought Arei at top-shape, and, uh.... wasn't Junko and Arei's fight broadcasted throughout Academy City (or just some parts of it), so she would've a rough idea of what a "peak" Arei could do... Barring that, Junko is still somebody that Kuroko knows to some degree so she should've a "general idea" of how strong a "normal" Junko is.

 

[XDragnoir]

Vento needs to be downgraded, but her old version had stats based on her own feats which are higher than what she would get otherwise. Based on this (or this calc if the revision is accepted) she would get 9-A durability.
I'm a little uncertain what to do with her AP, though. Wall level would probably be the minimum.

First, her 2nd key doesn't split between physicals and magic too, that's another problem (her ice magic even scaling to 7B is questionable to say the least, but idc about it rn).

Second, was it stated that she used magic to tank this explosion or is this a purely physical feat for her dura?

Misaka's railgun was upgraded to" 8-A+, likely 7-C" recently. However, that hasn't been applied to everyone that scales yet. Who is missing?

Touma's dragons don't have the 7C end in their profiles, the AAA (in its own profile) doesn't have it for its LCR, possibly others but just these that I could remember.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Ah. I just remembered this.

Railgun Manga Feat Calculation Part 13

vsbattles.fandom.com

A Junko calc about a Junko which got a result of 3.96952462 Megajoules. More specifically, a Junko feat that was extremely casual and done by a younger Junko. And since Arei, prior to get her enhancements, was capable of taking a hit from an Older, Non-Full Powered (but still in serious mode due to Misaki) Junko and Enhanced!Arei was just flat-out better than a Non-Full Powered Junko (and we know the whole deal with Kuroko, so no need to repeat here), I think this could be applicable here.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Second, was it stated that she used magic to tank this explosion or is this a purely physical feat for her dura?

Not stated that magic was used or even implied in the slightest.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Could we just delete her instead of going through the trouble? She only has the "generic" skilled H2H fighter stick without any special techniques, skills or experience that makes her "stand-out", imo, nor does she contribute anything to the scaling considering the things that I pointed out. At this point, she is essentially just a "no-name" mma fighter hit by the waifu-beam.

I need my waifu MMA fighter, though!

But yeah, if she ends up with human stats and nothing else notable, we can delete a side character like her.

Sounds good, although, I do want to point out that the Salome that Yuiitsu clashed with-

-prior to Touma acting as a meat shield for 30 seconds was a... Well, I guess Base!Salome, since she already used her "boosted" might earlier and she hadn't got the chance to "re-stock" her strength, and Yuiitsu was capable of forcing her back... So... It would just end with a Touma~Yuiitsu~Salome scaling chain but with Yuiitsu being the "stronger" of the three, if that makes sense.

Sure.

Eh... Am raising a small objection with these two. Touma was still the "stronger" one with both of 'em. Already gave an example with Kamisato and how the main issue with him was World Rejector and nothing else

Sure, but comparably stronger. Kamisato can take a hit and throw Touma and stuff. I think it's close enough to scale. He isn't 100x weaker or anything.

but I do want to point out that by the time that Stiyl woke up from being knocked unconscious by Oriana, Touma and her exchanged several blows and we later get a mention that once Stiyl came to "help" Touma was finally able to land a direct hit - implying that most if not all of Touma's attacks prior were dodged and he continuously suffered from Oriana's when he couldn't negate her magic or dodge her blows but it wasn't enough to knock him out.

Hence, I propose it would be better for them to get "At Most" ratings then direct ratings.

Idk, Oriana can take a punch and they could exchange blows for a while... I would say it sounds like they are close enough to scale.

Eh? Kuroko still thought she would've won if she fought Arei at top-shape, and, uh.... wasn't Junko and Arei's fight broadcasted throughout Academy City (or just some parts of it), so she would've a rough idea of what a "peak" Arei could do... Barring that, Junko is still somebody that Kuroko knows to some degree so she should've a "general idea" of how strong a "normal" Junko is.

I'm fairly sure that's Kuroko being... optimistic. If not cocky. Like, we see how she did in this fight. She barely edged out. And she even had a painkiller boost from Misaki IIRC.
If you really want to say she would have beat Arei in top form then I can only imagine it being due to skill or something.

And that Kuroko would have analyzed their battle strength appears a little assumptive IMO. She might have been technically able to do that, but I don't think we have any indication that she did.

First, her 2nd key doesn't split between physicals and magic too, that's another problem (her ice magic even scaling to 7B is questionable to say the least, but idc about it rn).

This could be due to Striking Strength as a separate stat being sufficient to indicate the split, but I suppose we can also make it explicit when the profile is edited.

Second, was it stated that she used magic to tank this explosion or is this a purely physical feat for her dura?

By how the novel depicts it, the rocket impacted her chest. So I figure it's just the typical passive magical durability enhancement (walking church or similar) that helped her tank it.

Touma's dragons don't have the 7C end in their profiles, the AAA (in its own profile) doesn't have it for its LCR, possibly others but just these that I could remember.

Good point, should be added to those as well.

Ah. I just remembered this.

Railgun Manga Feat Calculation Part 13

vsbattles.fandom.com

A Junko calc about a Junko which got a result of 3.96952462 Megajoules. More specifically, a Junko feat that was extremely casual and done by a younger Junko. And since Arei, prior to get her enhancements, was capable of taking a hit from an Older, Non-Full Powered (but still in serious mode due to Misaki) Junko and Enhanced!Arei was just flat-out better than a Non-Full Powered Junko (and we know the whole deal with Kuroko, so no need to repeat here), I think this could be applicable here.

Eh, I don't think that would apply. Like, (unenhanced) Arei doesn't scale to current Junko and that Junko's not full-powered punches would be comparable to a random punch she did in the past is kinda speculative, I think. There is no real connection between the wall busting punch and the Arei punch. Junko could have used entirely different strength on the wall due to knowing her target... or anything like that.
Ultimately, to instances of not using full power aren't necessarily equal in power.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Idk, Oriana can take a punch and they could exchange blows for a while... I would say it sounds like they are close enough to scale.

One punch, upon recollection, caused her to momentarily lose her balance and struggling to not fall unconscious. And didn't I already point out that prior to Stiyl helping, Oriana's skill aided in avoiding any direct blows from Touma - and upon him breaking through this skill gap, one hit made it really hit for Oriana to breathe, a second hit w/Stiyl's help knocked her out for a moment, and the last hit knocked her out for good. Would still say she fits more better in the downscaling area than direct scaling.

Sure, but comparably stronger. Kamisato can take a hit and throw Touma and stuff. I think it's close enough to scale. He isn't 100x weaker or anything.

Don't think Kamisato even threw Touma. He just got him to fall due to taking advantage of the pen he stabbed in him and they just began to grapple with each other - in which Touma was still the one with the upper hand. Also wouldn't really say that Kamisato took a hit... He got tripped, his brain shook by a headbutt and stated to be something that Touma saw "as a person collapsed like a broken doll". Would say that this is definite proof that he is weaker to a notable degree.

I'm fairly sure that's Kuroko being... optimistic. If not cocky. Like, we see how she did in this fight. She barely edged out. And she even had a painkiller boost from Misaki IIRC.
If you really want to say she would have beat Arei in top form then I can only imagine it being due to skill or something.

And that Kuroko would have analyzed their battle strength appears a little assumptive IMO. She might have been technically able to do that, but I don't think we have any indication that she did.

Isn't that a bit OOC for Kuroko? Disregarding her... less than stellar moments when her Misa-simping happens, she is usually serious with she is in her "judgement mode", so to speak. Moreover, why would she think that she is possibly capable of defeating somebody who beat the crap out of her not moments ago if they didn't have some confidence in the area? 'sides, wouldn't any cockyness have been beaten out of her at this point considering she got defeated by sherry and awaki, so she shouldn't have any reasonable to be overconfident

And idk what you are talking about her. She just needs to know "Arei is strong enough to fight Junko", which she can know via the broadcasting that was pretty much everywhere due to Mitusari's plan, from info that Komaki or just Misaki saying something along the way. Junko is still somebody of considerable strength to her, so Kuroko has to have some comparability to Junko if she had any confidence at all.

By how the novel depicts it, the rocket impacted her chest. So I figure it's just the typical passive magical durability enhancement (walking church or similar) that helped her tank it.

Isn't Walking Church special because of its passive durability, though? And furthermore, wouldn't that just be NFL to assume that if nothing of the sort has been mentioned or implied throughout every adapation of the scene? Which is literally just Vento getting hit by a missle? And would be just adding an ability that she is never hinted of having?

Eh, I don't think that would apply. Like, (unenhanced) Arei doesn't scale to current Junko and that Junko's not full-powered punches would be comparable to a random punch she did in the past is kinda speculative, I think. There is no real connection between the wall busting punch and the Arei punch. Junko could have used entirely different strength on the wall due to knowing her target... or anything like that.
Ultimately, to instances of not using full power aren't necessarily equal in power.

The wall-busting punch was done by a casual and seemingly relaxed Junko who wasn't really stressed out about Misaki. Who also happened to be a younger Junko, and we know for a fact that Junko does some form of training, so she should be at the very least just a bit stronger than that feat by the time of Astral Buddy. With Arei punch... Junko knows that she'd beat up a friend (of a friend), has taken someone precious to her and needs to take them down; why would she put less effort in a hit that was weaker than a casual and relaxed hit she done in the past?

 

[XDragnoir]

This could be due to Striking Strength as a separate stat being sufficient to indicate the split, but I suppose we can also make it explicit when the profile is edited.

We've been doing this for the Tier section of Toaru characters for years at this point, Vento shouldn't be an exception.

By how the novel depicts it, the rocket impacted her chest. So I figure it's just the typical passive magical durability enhancement (walking church or similar) that helped her tank it.

Vento doesn't have that as far as we know and this isn't a verse-wide ability all magicians share, Walking Church is the worst example possible as that was unique to Index.

Eh, I don't think that would apply. Like, (unenhanced) Arei doesn't scale to current Junko and that Junko's not full-powered punches would be comparable to a random punch she did in the past is kinda speculative, I think. There is no real connection between the wall busting punch and the Arei punch. Junko could have used entirely different strength on the wall due to knowing her target... or anything like that.
Ultimately, to instances of not using full power aren't necessarily equal in power.

They aren't necessarily far apart either, it's not like Junko has dozens of different levels for using her ability, it's like, Casual, Serious and Full Power, there's no need to overcomplicate it like you're doing.

 

[DontTalkDT]

One punch, upon recollection, caused her to momentarily lose her balance and struggling to not fall unconscious. And didn't I already point out that prior to Stiyl helping, Oriana's skill aided in avoiding any direct blows from Touma - and upon him breaking through this skill gap, one hit made it really hit for Oriana to breathe, a second hit w/Stiyl's help knocked her out for a moment, and the last hit knocked her out for good. Would still say she fits more better in the downscaling area than direct scaling.

She managed to keep herself together after that punch for a while, though. Basically, yes, she took damage. But not enough damage to not scale.
She took punches of Tsuchimikado, too, even if he might have been somewhat weakened and she also damaged him significantly enough with physical attacks.

Tsuchimikado inhaled, ready to twist the ankle. Just as Oriana was about to be controlled completely, with her ankle as the pivot, she turned her body around, and with her free leg, slammed it from the side into Tsuchimikado’s face like a hammer. “Gya… ahhhh!!” Tsuchimikado’s body rolled hard to the left. Oriana got up and tore another flashcard with her teeth. From her hands, an intangible force was released, moving towards Tsuchimikado. Tsuchimikado corrected his body posture while rotating and jumped up, his back slamming hard into the wall. A weird cracking sound could be heard from his body, and Tsuchimikado could taste blood. (Damn… it!)

All in all, I think we have enough to give her the same rating as the two.

Don't think Kamisato even threw Touma. He just got him to fall due to taking advantage of the pen he stabbed in him and they just began to grapple with each other - in which Touma was still the one with the upper hand. Also wouldn't really say that Kamisato took a hit... He got tripped, his brain shook by a headbutt and stated to be something that Touma saw "as a person collapsed like a broken doll". Would say that this is definite proof that he is weaker to a notable degree.

As you quoted

He groaned and swung his body up to knock Kamijou off of him. Overwhelmed by the momentum, Kamijou rolled to the side and Kamisato began his counterattack. They switched between offense and defense again and again.

However, that did not last long.

After rolling a few times, Kamisato tried to climb on top again, but Kamijou bent one leg and placed the sole of his foot on Kamisato’s gut.

Then he extended his leg like a fully compressed spring.

Kamisato managed to knock Touma off of himself. Kamisato also got up and continued fighting after tanking the kick that made him collapse like a broken doll, meaning he did endure it.

Isn't that a bit OOC for Kuroko? Disregarding her... less than stellar moments when her Misa-simping happens, she is usually serious with she is in her "judgement mode", so to speak. Moreover, why would she think that she is possibly capable of defeating somebody who beat the crap out of her not moments ago if they didn't have some confidence in the area? 'sides, wouldn't any cockyness have been beaten out of her at this point considering she got defeated by sherry and awaki, so she shouldn't have any reasonable to be overconfident

And idk what you are talking about her. She just needs to know "Arei is strong enough to fight Junko", which she can know via the broadcasting that was pretty much everywhere due to Mitusari's plan, from info that Komaki or just Misaki saying something along the way. Junko is still somebody of considerable strength to her, so Kuroko has to have some comparability to Junko if she had any confidence at all.

I'm not sure why you take the "who beat the crap out of her not moments ago" in a point of favour to you. The fact that she got the crap beaten out of her just makes it seem even more like a rational evaluation would lead her to believe that she would lose if her opponent were even stronger, meaning that this wasn't a rational evaluation.
As said, it's also possible that Kuroko intends to win via tactics if she made an actual analysis. She can circumvent durability, so she can always win.
Her manner of saying it doesn't strike me as an analytical conclusion either. Like, she was going to say that she would have lost if Arei was in top form, but then goes "Nah, actually I would have won". That just sounds like she's saying "I would manage somehow".

However, in general, your estimation of how serious she is is off. She is serious while fighting an opponent, but this statement is made after defeating her opponent and even is one she never will have to follow up on. She can just say that she would win and will never be challenged on that assertion.

Kuroko is known to mock defeated opponents.

“Too easy to handle. Besides, it’ll make people uncomfortable.” Shirai mockingly said that, but there was no one who could answer her. Using the tips of her toes, Shirai gently kicked the robber, trying to confirm if he was awake, and used special non-metallic handcuffs to cuff them up.

(Volume 8)

And she generally is self-confident and has an optimistic attitude. Before her fight against Awaki she assessed:

“It’s definitely somewhat different… She can teleport ten men and use them as her shield. So the total mass should be about seven hundred kilograms. It’s really different from my own ability.” Shirai didn’t deny that she was at a disadvantage. It was because she believed that she could find an escape route through it.

(Volume 8)
And that is an assessment she made before Uiharu explained the details of Awaki's ability to her. I.e. that isn't based on rational analysis, but her self-confidence.

Heck, even in battle she is sometimes more cocky than she should be. See the beginning of the Awaki fight.

All in all, it's a short throwaway statement from an unreliable speaker that just got the shit kicked out of her saying that she would totally win against someone even stronger by some unknown means. I think there is ample reason to not completely rely on it.

Like, remember they are already getting a likely Wall level. Likely is "used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be favourable." Basically, the standard you would need to prove for not just likely, but just a straight rating, is more than the probability of Kuroko scaling being favourable. Don't think this statement gives us that strong evidence.

Isn't Walking Church special because of its passive durability, though? And furthermore, wouldn't that just be NFL to assume that if nothing of the sort has been mentioned or implied throughout every adapation of the scene? Which is literally just Vento getting hit by a missle? And would be just adding an ability that she is never hinted of having?

It's definitely not a NLF, as a NLF is about saying that something has no limit.

Anyway, lots of magicians are explained to have walking churchs or more generally some kind of magical defenses against attacks. Like, if magicians are more durable than regular people, their magic is usually the reason. Which is also why Touma can punch them out so easily, even if they otherwise survived more impressive stuff.
We know lots of magicians use it and it has established itself as unspoken standard that superhumanly strong magicians use enhancement magic. Like, pretty sure Birdway was never explicitely stated to use strength and durability enhancing magic, but we can be pretty sure she does since she clashes with Kanzaki.
At a certain point, you can't expect the author to explain for every characters that uses a standard technique that they use said technique anymore. You wouldn't expect every ninja in Naruto to have a statement that they, too, are using chakra to enhance their strength.
If Touma can punch the crap out of them, despite them tanking a missle that Touma definitely wouldn't survive if we are being real, chances are double that they are using magic.

You are saying that it's never hinted at them having that ability, but that's not the case. It's never explicitely stated, but the things we see happen and the precedence are the hints towards it happening.

The wall-busting punch was done by a casual and seemingly relaxed Junko who wasn't really stressed out about Misaki. Who also happened to be a younger Junko, and we know for a fact that Junko does some form of training, so she should be at the very least just a bit stronger than that feat by the time of Astral Buddy. With Arei punch... Junko knows that she'd beat up a friend (of a friend), has taken someone precious to her and needs to take them down; why would she put less effort in a hit that was weaker than a casual and relaxed hit she done in the past?

Because "casual" isn't a power mode. It's not like Junko is a fighting game character that performs a weak attack if you press A and a strong attack if you press B. Junko can punch with any strength between regular human and her top output.
So if she isn't punching with full strength, we only know that he strength is somewhere between these two values. For all we know she might have not punched harder because she didn't desire to turn her opponent into a pile of disintegrated organs, for example.

We've been doing this for the Tier section of Toaru characters for years at this point, Vento shouldn't be an exception.

As said, I'm ok with that.

Vento doesn't have that as far as we know and this isn't a verse-wide ability all magicians share, Walking Church is the worst example possible as that was unique to Index.

Walking Church is not Index specific. Aisa wears one, too. Stiyl, Tsuchimikado and Kanzaki at least possess one as well. Anyway, I said "or similar" for a reason, as other magicians also demonstrated other physical enhancements.
While not quite a verse-wide ability, it is a wide spread ability magicians have. I really don't think it should be so controversal to assume that something that's clearly vastly superhuman by the verse's own standard (the missle would no doubt have killed a regular soldier) being tanked would be due to supernatural reasons.
Like, Touma can't tank that kind of modern weapons. Vento can. Touma can still physically hit Vento. The most logical way to fit this together is that Imagine Breaker negates the superhuman durability of her, explaining how he can harm her despite the strength gap.

They aren't necessarily far apart either, it's not like Junko has dozens of different levels for using her ability, it's like, Casual, Serious and Full Power, there's no need to overcomplicate it like you're doing.

I don't think "strength is a continuum" is very complicated of a concept. People don't operate on discrete levels. That's oversimplified, especially if you want to use it for an argument by exclusion.
You wouldn't assume that a human that punches a squirrel uses the same strength as one that punches another guy, even if both punches are holding back. For Junko most humans are squirrels in terms of strength.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Walking Church is not Index specific. Aisa wears one, too. Stiyl, Tsuchimikado and Kanzaki at least possess one as well. Anyway, I said "or similar" for a reason, as other magicians also demonstrated other physical enhancements.
While not quite a verse-wide ability, it is a wide spread ability magicians have. I really don't think it should be so controversal to assume that something that's clearly vastly superhuman by the verse's own standard (the missle would no doubt have killed a regular soldier) being tanked would be due to supernatural reasons.
Like, Touma can't tank that kind of modern weapons. Vento can. Touma can still physically hit Vento. The most logical way to fit this together is that Imagine Breaker negates the superhuman durability of her, explaining how he can harm her despite the strength gap.

Again, it is never mentioned or implied anywhere, in all of OT13's adaptations, that is the case. All we see Vento getting hit in the chest by a missle, and that is it. Furthermore, Walking Churches are also "varied" if we go by the example of Index and Aisa - with Index's WC being highly defensive since she is the walking, talking magic-god maker/grimoire library to most of the verse and Aisa's WC just nullifies her vampire attracting+killing ability. We also have no idea what Stiyl, Tsuchimikado and Kanzaki's WCes do anyways or what abilities they possess, so they really aren't helpful in this case

All-in-all, you are still giving an ability to a character that never had it, DT.

We see Vento tank a missle with her body, and that's that.... Besides wasn't Hyouka's sheer presence, at a distance, fricking with Vento's organs anyways and by the time Touma fought her they were extremely close to Hyouka? So even if Vento's pure dura was 9-A, she was getting massively debuffed to the point that Touma could harm her - I think Terra even commented on this fact, but am not too sure.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

They aren't necessarily far apart either, it's not like Junko has dozens of different levels for using her ability, it's like, Casual, Serious and Full Power, there's no need to overcomplicate it like you're doing.

I don't think "strength is a continuum" is very complicated of a concept. People don't operate on discrete levels. That's oversimplified, especially if you want to use it for an argument by exclusion.
You wouldn't assume that a human that punches a squirrel uses the same strength as one that punches another guy, even if both punches are holding back. For Junko most humans are squirrels in terms of strength.

Have to agree with Noir on this one. You are just vastly overcomplicating it. Not much else to say other than that.

... Oh yeah, I just remembered some stuff about the Amakusa and Touma.

Touma one-shotted a member of their forces

The girl frantically raised her dress sword once more.

“Too late!!”

Kamijou had already swung his arms to the side, flinging the blade away, and slammed into the girl's waist viciously. With his entire weight pressing against her, the blow bowled her over backwards. Kamijou was kind enough to protect the girl’s head with his hand, however, so the back of her head did not hit the ground full-force.

The collision knocked out all the air within the girl’s lungs, and she could not move. It was like someone who completely lost her body balance and got tossed by a judo throw; it was expected that she would faint.

“…ouch, it hurts.”

After confirming that the girl was not hurt, Kamijou sat on the ground with one buttock, looking up. Above him was a night sky cut into a square by the four walls of the building. Such a scene was rather common in an alley.

Touma got directly hit by a magic attack from Tatemiya

Taking advantage when Tatemiya turned to look right, Kamijou jumped away in the opposite direction, trying to pull away from Tatemiya.

But, he failed.

When Kamijou made the first move, Tatemiya, who was looking in the opposite direction, was somehow able to catch up like a shadow. Tatemiya’s feet weren’t moving at all, and it was like he was skating on ice, his movements weren’t natural at all.

(Ma……gic……?)

Kamijou felt his back go numb.

When Tatemiya turned around, the large sword came swinging around like a tornado sweeping across. He frantically bent down to avoid this strike.

DONG! A heavy impact hit Kamijou’s waist, who should have avoided successfully.

Looking closer, a transparent snowball as big as a soccer ball was buried into Kamijou’s body. When he looked at it, the snowball vanished, as if someone colored it with watercolor. Because of the blow from the snowball, Kamijou was knocked to the ground, and continued to roll.

-Let's go back in time for a moment, to when Kamijou and Tatemiya just met each other.

When the boy was about to be sliced by that sword, Index rushed forward without hesitation.

(That is……Amakusa……)

Index trembled as she ran.

Besides being fearful, she was impressed.

The magic that the Amakusa used wasn’t really special on its own. At least not as grand, unique and powerful as Stiyl’s Innocentius or Aureolus' ‘Alchemy’.

However, the Amakusa in turn used this point against them.

Kanzaki’s ‘Nanasen’ was probably the best example. If there was one word that could describe the Amakusa’s basic fighting style, it was ‘disguise’. Most of the attacks that looked like magic were just simple illusions, but among these illusions, there was a real magical fatal blow.

Touma harmed Tatemiya, and with Stiyl's aid they were able to knock him out

Bam! A sound similar to that of a balloon bursting was heard. The priest’s flame sword exploded into fireworks, and vanished.

“Ah……? This is…… Wha—!?”

Tatemiya, who had already set up the anti-flame spell and thinking about a counter, did not understand a single thing that was going on.

BAM! A terrifying sound was heard as the boy’s fist landed brutally on Tatemiya’s face.

(Ka……aaaa……! The anti-impact spell……was broken through……?)

Tatemiya’s body flew backwards. Just when he was about to stand upright, the boy and the priest slammed into him. Being hit by the weight of two people, Tatemiya’s body rolled on the ground at an astonishing speed like he was being hit by a large hammer.

Just like this, Tatemiya lost consciousness.

Twang! The Flamberge left his hand and rolled on the floor.

Touma got hit by Terra's non-ehanced flour attack and wasn't one-shotted, Itsuwa got hit by Terra and was one-shotted.

He lacked the time to even finish the thought.

The blade's width was thicker than his thumb. He felt it press up against his skin and dig in. Pain exploded about him.

Kamijou’s body doubled over from the force of the guillotine and he was launched into the side wall.

Shortly after he heard a loud thud, he heard a painful cracking noise from his body.

(…!?)

He was unable to speak. The force that was pinning his stomach and back had left him breathless.

“Gha…!?”

However, that was the extent of his injuries. Kamijou’s was not sliced in two like the outer walls.

He punched the guillotine pushing him against the wall with a shaking fist. The giant blade burst into powder and Kamijou sat on the ground, attempting to gain control of his erratic breathing.

[-]


“Precedence: Ceiling – Lower, Flour – Higher.”

As Terra moved his arm like he was pulling the string for a fluorescent light, it came down.

Just like a trap in an old castle, the ceiling of that floor suddenly lowered.

The pillars supporting the ceiling sank down unnaturally into the floor.

“!!”

Itsuwa hurriedly held her spear vertically.

She wedged the spear between the falling ceiling and the floor narrowly avoiding being crushed to death.

But in doing so she lost her weapon.

Terra then mercilessly attacked with his guillotine.

There was an explosive roar.

The horizontally flying guillotine directly hit Itsuwa’s defenseless body. She doubled over while a dull sound could be heard and the shock knocked her small body through the air. Her body rolled a few meters as she bounced 2 or 3 times until her body finally lost its momentum and stopped.

She lay limp and did not get up.

Her arms and legs were splayed out, but her chest was slowly rising and falling so she wasn’t dead. However, it didn’t look like she would regain consciousness anytime soon.

Saying all of this because... I calculated Tatemiya's wall-busting feat right here. Touma one-shotted a member of Amakusa, withstood a magical attack and harmed Tatemiya and was capable of withstanding something that one-shotted Ituswa, who according to this wiki is comparable to Tatemiya; so would it be too far-fetched to assume that Touma just upscales from the Amakusa and their feats?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

On one last note... Should we do something similiar to the MHA Lower Tier Upgrade thread in where we create a Character Profile Sandbox to organize on who'll be affected by this CRT and the justification that'll be changed/added/whatever, DT, Noir?

Here. If you don't understand what I mean.

TheRustyOne/Sandbox 1

vsbattles.fandom.com

... Oh yeah. Would Kumokawa Maria's punch multipliers - 0.5x to 2x - come into play with the scaling or nah?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hey, hey, fanta here. Taking a break from playing ToTK because... I remembered that Sasha Kreutzev, who is listed as 9-B for destroying a wall and smashed through a heavy door in a magical facility in one hit... And, um... Touma had quite a few encounters from her.

Took a tackle from Sasha (OT21)

Kamijou stepped further into the room with that idea in mind, but…

“…!?”

His breath caught in his throat.

It came directly from the side.

A person had been hiding behind the pews lined up in the room like it was a chapel. That person had suddenly tackled him from the side.

The two of them collapsed to the floor.

Kamijou was having trouble breathing from the impact and his body reflexively tried to suck in air, but he forced down that urge in order to hold his breath and roll along the floor. When collapsed like that, the battle could be decided by who ended up on top. It seemed his attacker was thinking the same thing because the person tried to continue to roll and stay on top.

But the attacker’s body struck one of the pews.

Now that they had stopped, Kamijou got up on his attacker’s stomach to keep the person on the ground.

To be in that place, the attacker must have been a Roman Catholic or Russian Orthodox elite.

Kamijou was just about to swing his fist down, but…

“Huh…?”

He froze in place.

He recognized the face.

Took quite a few crowbar strikes from Sasha (OT21)

“…No. Not here either. Or here. Or here. Dammit, there’s no change in Misha. Is this method not going to work? I guess I’ll test her back as well just to be sure. And what’s with this crazy outfit…?”

“…”

As Kamijou muttered to himself, Sasha silently swung around her L-shaped crowbar.

As if she were striking him with the back of a sword, she got a nice clean hit with the horizontal strike. The corner that bent at a right angle struck Kamijou in the temple.

“…My second question: Do you possess the same soul as Vasilisa?”

“Gyabh!? What? Cough! What’s a Vasilisa!?” Kamijou vaguely shouted as he rolled around on the floor with his arms and legs twitching.

Sasha swung down the corner of the crowbar twice more, but she must have decided that beating him beyond repair would not get her anywhere because she put the instrument of torture back in her belt while blushing profusely.

Stopped Sasha's Crowbar at the cost of injuring his right hand; afterwards, Sasha determined it was better to sweep him to the ground then take a direct punch

He spoke not to Vasilisa and Sasha. He was declaring war on the much larger gears of the world that stood behind them.

“Pathetic. I’m not about to condone what Othinus did, but what you’re doing isn’t much different.”

A dull sound exploded through the silver world.

Kamijou Touma and Sasha Kreutzev took action at the same moment. They ran full speed along the shortest path, Sasha swung down her L-shaped crowbar, and Kamijou forcibly grabbed the grip of the tool.

Hot pain burst through his entire palm and blood dripped from between his thumb and forefinger.

However, the metal crowbar broke like it was made of packed sand. It may have had some sort of magical effect.

Kamijou had no need to focus on that one tool.

What mattered was using the instant that his enemy’s trusty attack had been negated to bring his fist in range.

He clenched his fist with such force that he could have sworn it produced a creaking noise.

To prevent her from reading the timing, he even stopped his breathing as he threw the punch.

“…!!”

Just before impact, his pivot leg slid to the side. Sasha had determined she could not evade, so she had swept his leg out from under him. But by the time he realized that, he had already tumbled spectacularly into the snow.

Will attempt to find the source of Sasha's 9-B ratings. They 100% exist. Toaru VBWs aren't the best looking or sourced, but... they are usually correct of what they are saying most of the time... I also got these very old Touma-focused calcs of mine. Both of 'em 9-B. 125.82306 Kilojoules. 140.512751 kilojoules. If they help.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

... At this point, I might as well talk some more to keep this thread alive... unlike the another Scaling Thread.

Accelerator can tank some punches from Touma, so he gets it in durability. However, I see little reason it would apply to his (unboosted) Striking Strength, so that might go down to Human level.

Have to disagree with this... Probably pointless since you already agree with me on Amata, but... As bullshit as it seems considering what we know about Accelerator; his unboosted striking strength has to be equal to his attack potency and durability with the whole...

Breaking Amata's nose thingy

A roar rang out.

Kihara could feel slight cracking feelings transferred up his arm.

And yet Accelerator did not stop in the slightest.

“Ooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!”

Despite having his face smashed, he sent a counter punch at Kihara’s face. Kihara’s nose broke and pain exploded out. That strike had had the boy’s entire strength behind it. Kihara could tell without having it explained to him.

(…Gh…bh!!)

And matching Touma's punch with his own... despite IB being a thing

The bizarre sound cutting just barely above his head sent a chill down Kamijou’s spine and he attempted to approach while crouched down.

“What the hell are you doing!?” he shouted as he did so. “Sure, Gremlin did a lot of damage at Hawaii, Baggage City, and Tokyo, but you hold the position of the strongest! Did you really take enough damage to warrant killing people!?”

“I don’t have a reason like that.” Accelerator lightly clenched his fist. “When I was using my power, I didn’t have any crazy ideas about saving the world or protecting mankind, you dumbass!!”

A great roar split the air as fist struck fist.

Like... if Accelerator didn't have an equal amount of striking strength, his hand/fingers would've broken on impact like what was seen with the Railgun adaption of their first fight... Probably. Idk. Either way, any gap of SS would mean he wouldn't be able to hurt the people he was able to get his hands on.

Kakine. If we assume him tanking Accels attacks is due to Dark Matter, I have no idea which feats he would have when not using Dark Matter. So if nobody else has an idea, I guess he just gets human stats.

I also have to object to this. At that point of time in where Accelerator and Kakine fought, I don't believe Dark Matter had any properties of enhancing one's stats... Granted, I don't think even NT Era!Kakine's DM had this ability, but that isn't the point... Again, this is simply just adding an ability that a character is never stated to have or implied. Kakine was able to withstand Kinuhata's attack (and stated to feel pain from), because that is what Kamachi wrote. Kakine was able to withstand Accelerator's attacks, because that is what Kamachi wrote. Nothing more, nothing less.

... and Dark Matter boosting his stats would've been really helpful when Ringo blitzed him, grabbed his head and slammed him into the ground - causing a crater in the process... Or help solve his dilemma of stopping Ringo without killing her, since one is very stoppable if one's attacks can't harm the another.

 

[DontTalkDT]

... At this point, I might as well talk some more to keep this thread alive... unlike the another Scaling Thread.

Bro, the more I need to reply to the longer I take.

On one last note... Should we do something similiar to the MHA Lower Tier Upgrade thread in where we create a Character Profile Sandbox to organize on who'll be affected by this CRT and the justification that'll be changed/added/whatever, DT, Noir?

Here. If you don't understand what I mean.

TheRustyOne/Sandbox 1

vsbattles.fandom.com

Seems a little cumbersome, especially since I’m planning to mostly be keeping the existing justifications. If you really want to, I guess I can tell you the reformulations of justifications that change in advance, though.

... Oh yeah. Would Kumokawa Maria's punch multipliers - 0.5x to 2x - come into play with the scaling or nah?

Probably not? I think it would be hard to say where her baseline to apply them to is at exactly. I.e. they essentially just double the uncertainty in the value we give her. It would be Wall level anyway. That’s not to say that they can’t be mentioned on the page.

Again, it is never mentioned or implied anywhere, in all of OT13's adaptations, that is the case. All we see Vento getting hit in the chest by a missle, and that is it. Furthermore, Walking Churches are also "varied" if we go by the example of Index and Aisa - with Index's WC being highly defensive since she is the walking, talking magic-god maker/grimoire library to most of the verse and Aisa's WC just nullifies her vampire attracting+killing ability. We also have no idea what Stiyl, Tsuchimikado and Kanzaki's WCes do anyways or what abilities they possess, so they really aren't helpful in this case

All-in-all, you are still giving an ability to a character that never had it, DT.

We see Vento tank a missle with her body, and that's that.... Besides wasn't Hyouka's sheer presence, at a distance, fricking with Vento's organs anyways and by the time Touma fought her they were extremely close to Hyouka? So even if Vento's pure dura was 9-A, she was getting massively debuffed to the point that Touma could harm her - I think Terra even commented on this fact, but am not too sure.

We have two options here. Either we give her the ability to have non-magical super durability or we give her the ability to have magical super durability. So I'm not giving her more or less abilities than the alternative you propose. We are both proposing to give her Superhuman Physical Characteristics, just with different mechanics.

In fact, your own argumentation seems to speak against you. You know what magicians are even less stated to have than magically enhanced durability? Superhuman non-magical durability. The novels give vastly more evidence for magicians to have magic-based super durability than for them to have biology-based super durability.

I am proposing that the mechanism behind Vento's superhuman durability is magic, because she is a magician and plenty of magicians are known to have spells that do that, to the point that the author likely feels no need to repeat it when it's clearly shown that the magician did something superhuman. Kamachi probably thinks that if a magician does something clearly humanly impossible, readers will put 2 and 2 together and conclude it's magic.
You are proposing that Vento is using a non-magical power system to get superhuman durability which was never acknowledged to exist for any character at all.

And if Terra said that, doesn't that go against your point as well? Hyouka surely didn't nerf her non-magical durability.

Have to agree with Noir on this one. You are just vastly overcomplicating it. Not much else to say other than that.

We can leave that to which ever other staff member leaves it to decide.

Like, honestly, I could go and calculate a dozen other Junko feats, all of which are casual. How do you justify using that particular one over any of the other values of her accomplishing something while holding back her full strength?

... Oh yeah, I just remembered some stuff about the Amakusa and Touma.

Touma one-shotted a member of their forces


Touma got directly hit by a magic attack from Tatemiya


Touma harmed Tatemiya, and with Stiyl's aid they were able to knock him out


Touma got hit by Terra's non-ehanced flour attack and wasn't one-shotted, Itsuwa got hit by Terra and was one-shotted.


Saying all of this because... I calculated Tatemiya's wall-busting feat right here. Touma one-shotted a member of Amakusa, withstood a magical attack and harmed Tatemiya and was capable of withstanding something that one-shotted Ituswa, who according to this wiki is comparable to Tatemiya; so would it be too far-fetched to assume that Touma just upscales from the Amakusa and their feats?

Not sure what the wall busting feat is about, seeing how Tatemiya gets better scaling.

Anyway, Imagine Breaker explains Touma knocking out Amakusa. Their defenses are magical, Touma negates them and can punch them like they are regular people. (His hand is noted to touch the girl he tackled, not that random Amakusa have feats)

A direct hit of Stiyl's flame sword was supposed to impale Touma in that very fight, so I would find it rather awkward for him to be in the same scaling chain as him. (He also acknowledges "Terra’s first surprise attack had easily broken through the outer wall of the museum. Kamijou had been hit by the same attack, so his body should be crushed or splattered.") Especially since he and people in his scaling chain have vastly lesser feats. Like, we have people that can cause big explosions on one side and people that couldn't do much damage to a wall on the other.
So I would argue that those were either not peak strength attacks or that Touma mitigated damage via his unconscious skill stuff.

Hey, hey, fanta here. Taking a break from playing ToTK because... I remembered that Sasha Kreutzev, who is listed as 9-B for destroying a wall and smashed through a heavy door in a magical facility in one hit... And, um... Touma had quite a few encounters from her.

Took a tackle from Sasha (OT21)


Took quite a few crowbar strikes from Sasha (OT21)


Stopped Sasha's Crowbar at the cost of injuring his right hand; afterwards, Sasha determined it was better to sweep him to the ground then take a direct punch


Will attempt to find the source of Sasha's 9-B ratings. They 100% exist. Toaru VBWs aren't the best looking or sourced, but... they are usually correct of what they are saying most of the time... I also got these very old Touma-focused calcs of mine. Both of 'em 9-B. 125.82306 Kilojoules. 140.512751 kilojoules. If they help.

I'm not sure if Sasha should be 9-B. Depends on what we know about the wall.

What the calcs are concerned... well, I already expressed that I don't believe the first calc would scale due to IB shenanigans. It's even indicated that the reversal of the process (him dropping from the height he was launched up) would have ended very badly for him.

What the glass calc is concerned... ballistic glass is a no. Why would a bus with glass specifically made more fragile to be able to be shattered use bullet proof glass? Honestly, given that it's specifically noted that a regular person should be able to comfortably shatter this by design I would argue that this can't be used as a feat.

Have to disagree with this... Probably pointless since you already agree with me on Amata, but... As bullshit as it seems considering what we know about Accelerator; his unboosted striking strength has to be equal to his attack potency and durability with the whole...

Breaking Amata's nose thingy


And matching Touma's punch with his own... despite IB being a thing


Like... if Accelerator didn't have an equal amount of striking strength, his hand/fingers would've broken on impact like what was seen with the Railgun adaption of their first fight... Probably. Idk. Either way, any gap of SS would mean he wouldn't be able to hurt the people he was able to get his hands on.

Sure, I suppose SS scaling is fine.

I also have to object to this. At that point of time in where Accelerator and Kakine fought, I don't believe Dark Matter had any properties of enhancing one's stats... Granted, I don't think even NT Era!Kakine's DM had this ability, but that isn't the point... Again, this is simply just adding an ability that a character is never stated to have or implied. Kakine was able to withstand Kinuhata's attack (and stated to feel pain from), because that is what Kamachi wrote. Kakine was able to withstand Accelerator's attacks, because that is what Kamachi wrote. Nothing more, nothing less.

... and Dark Matter boosting his stats would've been really helpful when Ringo blitzed him, grabbed his head and slammed him into the ground - causing a crater in the process... Or help solve his dilemma of stopping Ringo without killing her, since one is very stoppable if one's attacks can't harm the another.

Not sure what the stuff about Ringo is supposed to mean, as she was using something like Accels power but weaker.

Anyway, when I say Kakine tanks due to DM I mean by blocking the attack with it in the last second or something. I hope we can agree that if Kakine just allowed Accel to touch him directly, without some kind of barrier, he would have immediately died from blood reversal or similar. He's definitely not tanking Accels vector attacks without using his ability.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Bro, the more I need to reply to the longer I take.

Bro, having more to reply to is better than nothing to reply to, xD.

Not sure what the stuff about Ringo is supposed to mean, as she was using something like Accels power but weaker.

Anyway, when I say Kakine tanks due to DM I mean by blocking the attack with it in the last second or something. I hope we can agree that if Kakine just allowed Accel to touch him directly, without some kind of barrier, he would have immediately died from blood reversal or similar. He's definitely not tanking Accels vector attacks without using his ability.

Ringo was just using telekinesis to amp her physical stats and fly around at the cost of destroying her body. Nothing more, nothing less.

Y'know the drill, DT. Never stated. Never implied. Of Kakine using "some" kind of barrier to block Accelerator's attacks at the last second. As seen when I mentioned Ringo, the hightlighted word in her section leads to DM manga scans, once you get pass Kakine's wings there isn't anything "around" protecting him. In the LN themselves, we still have Kakine expressing pain when Kinuhata attacked him or when Accelerator sneak attacked him with a vending machine.

As for the blood reversal point... Barring that time with Mathers (and at least one Misaka clone), we never see Accelerator using that move on another person. In-verse, it could be attributed to his trauma and the edgy hero-villain phase he was in at that point of time on him not using it. Out-of-Verse, Kamachi either forgot about it or just purposefully ignored it or smth. either way, that and his other dura-neg moves weren't considered at the time by Kamachi.

I'm not sure if Sasha should be 9-B. Depends on what we know about the wall.

What the calcs are concerned... well, I already expressed that I don't believe the first calc would scale due to IB shenanigans. It's even indicated that the reversal of the process (him dropping from the height he was launched up) would have ended very badly for him.

What the glass calc is concerned... ballistic glass is a no. Why would a bus with glass specifically made more fragile to be able to be shattered use bullet proof glass? Honestly, given that it's specifically noted that a regular person should be able to comfortably shatter this by design I would argue that this can't be used as a feat.

Ye. Narrowed down my search to either OT17-OT18 and possibly SS1 or SS2 for when this feat occured. Will comment when I find it.

You are probably right, although, it has to be acknowledged that falls - among bullets, sharp objects and fast moving objects - are things that a lot of authors/writers themselves overhype and think are more deadly than they actually are since a vast lot of them aren't powerscalers.

Ye, sounds reasonable. Was just dusting out my old calcs for this one.

Seems a little cumbersome, especially since I’m planning to mostly be keeping the existing justifications. If you really want to, I guess I can tell you the reformulations of justifications that change in advance, though.

I just think the current justifications are cumbersome, a bit out-dated and are in dire need of having scans added to them. So ye, I'mma do it... Sooner or later. Frick my laziness.

Probably not? I think it would be hard to say where her baseline to apply them to is at exactly. I.e. they essentially just double the uncertainty in the value we give her. It would be Wall level anyway. That’s not to say that they can’t be mentioned on the page.

Would a Higher rating work for Maria and those who scale to her? She essentially blitzed and one-shotted Oumi without her amp, after all, and Enshuu could knock her out with a sneak attack, harm her and take a number of blows from her in their second fight fight.

Not sure what the wall busting feat is about, seeing how Tatemiya gets better scaling.

Anyway, Imagine Breaker explains Touma knocking out Amakusa. Their defenses are magical, Touma negates them and can punch them like they are regular people. (His hand is noted to touch the girl he tackled, not that random Amakusa have feats)

A direct hit of Stiyl's flame sword was supposed to impale Touma in that very fight, so I would find it rather awkward for him to be in the same scaling chain as him. (He also acknowledges "Terra’s first surprise attack had easily broken through the outer wall of the museum. Kamijou had been hit by the same attack, so his body should be crushed or splattered.") Especially since he and people in his scaling chain have vastly lesser feats. Like, we have people that can cause big explosions on one side and people that couldn't do much damage to a wall on the other.
So I would argue that those were either not peak strength attacks or that Touma mitigated damage via his unconscious skill stuff.

From my own reading of the text-

“Damn it! Kamijou… Touma… what are you doing? Hurry up and run!”
“Eh?”
Kamijou was stunned. At that moment, something that looked alive pierced through a wall two stores away from him
“!?”
Before he could understand what was going on, the wall of the store completely collapsed. A silhouette appeared from behind the wall like a killer whale emerging from water. The construct which had lost its support quickly collapsed behind him as the shoulder-wide planks fell beside this silhouette. But this guy was unfazed by it, even revealing a slight smile. Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 7, Chapter 2 Part 7 - Bakatsuki

As Kamijou imagined the unimaginable, Stiyl, on the ground, said,
“Damn…it. Touma…Kamijou? What are you doing? Run away, now!!”
No sooner had he thought Huh? than the two side walls of the shop he had his back to began to swell outward like a living being.
“?!”
In front of Kamijou, who couldn’t understand what was happening, almost as if a killer whale were piercing the ocean surface and jumping, the shop walls smashed into a thousand pieces and someone jumped out. Behind the person, the building collapsed, its supports gone. Pieces of the building as thick as a human arm came clattering down right next to him—but he didn’t move a muscle.
In fact, he was smiling. Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 7, Chapter 2 Part 7 - Yenpress

-It essentially implies that Tatemiya used a physical attack to bust down the wall then magic.

That goes against the order of events, however, though. Touma tackled her in the belly which knocked her out that then resulted in her falling down and Touma placing a "hand" on the back of her head. Keyword being "hand" as we don't know if that means his right or left hand. And what do you mean random Amasuka don't have feats? Itsuwa is literally just one of those random Amasuka herself, she is only "important" because Touma found her by sheer chance in OT14 and because she was the only Amasuka with a spear needed for Saint Killer in OT16 - other than those two "difference", Itsuwa and this random Amasuka girl are the same.

... That, and considering that all Amasuka are essentially taught the same skills and magic, there shouldn't be much of a difference even more.

... And what about Stiyl's sword? It is literally a 3000c flaming sword; of course, it would pierce through Touma. Even if IB protects him from the heat as soon as that sword touches him anywhere that isn't his right hand then Touma is going to be reduced to ash in an instant-it was also a feint for Touma to get close to Tatemiya and punch the frick out of him, so eh. Also wasn't that comment made when Touma didn't know Terra's ability and was just logically confused on why he didn't suffer from much injuries despite the massive damage Terra caused earlier?

Why wouldn't their attacks be at peak strength or somewhere around that level? To Tatemiya (or any of the Amasuka), Touma, to his knowledge, was an enemy that was going to take Orsola to be brutally killed (and in fact declered that he was going to fight to kill him). To Terra, Touma was the dumbutt ruining his grand plans and someone that stands against everything he thinks is right.

Fact of the matter is... Tatemiya attacked him as enemy. Terra attacked him with an attack that one-shotted Itsuwa later on.

... Also, also. There is no way in heck that Touma has that type of skill. Especially because it was firmly established in OT4 that Touma has no actual skill other than some street fighting random Level 0s and people who rely on their abilities too much. Like, even by GT time, Touma's solution to his skill issue is quite literally just one-shotting a martial artist before they get to show off their skill.

Like Yuiitsu is literally the only "normal" person that showcased having this type of martial skill - and we all know that she is basically among the "peak" normal H2H fighters in the verse.

We can leave that to which ever other staff member leaves it to decide.

Like, honestly, I could go and calculate a dozen other Junko feats, all of which are casual. How do you justify using that particular one over any of the other values of her accomplishing something while holding back her full strength?

Context matters, DT. Usually, those casual Junko feats were during times in where she wasn't in anything serious or that she wasn't in a situation in where she had to saved one of the most, if not the most, important person to her in Academy City - her first encounter with Arei is literally both of those things. We also know that Junko utilzing her full strength also comes with the problem of having a limited amount of time or she can outright injure herself by accident if she isn't careful.

... Now that I think about... why doesn't Enhanced!Arei scale to 8-C? In-verse time, Junko and Arei's fight happened right after Iruka was knocked out. Like it is probably less than 30 seconds.

We have two options here. Either we give her the ability to have non-magical super durability or we give her the ability to have magical super durability. So I'm not giving her more or less abilities than the alternative you propose. We are both proposing to give her Superhuman Physical Characteristics, just with different mechanics.

In fact, your own argumentation seems to speak against you. You know what magicians are even less stated to have than magically enhanced durability? Superhuman non-magical durability. The novels give vastly more evidence for magicians to have magic-based super durability than for them to have biology-based super durability.

I am proposing that the mechanism behind Vento's superhuman durability is magic, because she is a magician and plenty of magicians are known to have spells that do that, to the point that the author likely feels no need to repeat it when it's clearly shown that the magician did something superhuman. Kamachi probably thinks that if a magician does something clearly humanly impossible, readers will put 2 and 2 together and conclude it's magic.
You are proposing that Vento is using a non-magical power system to get superhuman durability which was never acknowledged to exist for any character at all.

And if Terra said that, doesn't that go against your point as well? Hyouka surely didn't nerf her non-magical durability.

So what if I am, DT?

On my end, I am just simply proposing that Vento just has the natural durability to do so. Nothing more, nothing less.

You are proposing that Kamachi, without any hint or implications, introduced a "universal" self-buffing spell without saying or mentioning anything about it. Stiyl didn't have such a spell. Kanzaki is just built different. Tsuchimikado doesn't have such a spell. The Agnese Forces doesn't have such a spell. The Amasuka have such a spell but it requires every Amasuka working together to be possible and if one person falters then it is immediately doneso. Yamisaka doesn't have such a spell. Oriana doesn't have such a spell. The movie magicians... The Norse SS magicians... you get the point.

Birdway herself is the only person shown to directly have such a spell, but-

“I noticed you never used that. The four elements of the symbolic weapon are related to the minor arcana of tarot. If you had used the 22 cards of the major arcana to bring out a combo going from the Fool to the World, you could have temporarily boosted your parameters and made supersonic movements,” said Silvia with a huge grin.

-It was outright stated that it required a visible process of some sort that wasn't just passively activated at all times. And that it is also temporary.

My proposal is simple - they just have the durability to do so - and doesn't require any jumping. Your proposal implies that every magician has a passive, streamlined stat amp spell that doesn't require any "unique" process and isn't limited by time or some limitation as shown with the other stat amp spells.

And's that. I think.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Also, also.

What should we do about the guy that Touma accidently c*cked by saving Index... I'm not sorry.

Aureolus Izzard

I shall not kill you that easily. Allow me to take my time and enjoy this! I have no intention of laying hands on Index, but if I do not take this out on you, I will lose myself!Aureolus Izzard Aureolus Izzard is the main antagonist of the second story arc of Toaru Majutsu no Index. He is a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Like... it is pretty weird that he has an attack potency rating at all considering how his magic works and the only person that he is shown injuring is Touma. Should his attack potency rating be removed, scaled to Touma or smth else entirely?

Also, also x2.

Since his power is fixed onto one spot - and we don't actually know if they work outside of it or the exact range of his power - should Aureolus have a "special note" or the like that Deltarune Darkworlders do - as in that Aureolus can only use his abilities in one spot and he is essentially powerless if he is outside of it?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Update... Still have not seen the feat mentioned in Sasha's profile. Even checked my notes and couldn't find anything. Am still sure it exist but it is probably in one of the more minor SS... or might have missed a keyword, idk.

In other news... I bought a few other things in exchange.

Touma being hit by a magic attack from Oriana.

Kamijou used this time to rush back at Oriana.

In contrast, Oriana rushed back into Kamijou’s arms at a terrifying speed.

“Wha…!!”

There was no time to even dodge or block.

Oriana, who was closing in at such a short distance, tore another flashcard with her mouth. Her hand slipped from Kamijou’s abdomen to his chest.

In that instant.

The feeling of a bluster. With a ‘bam’ blunt sound, Kamijou’s body arched back in a ‘<’ shape, and floated up with his chest as the center. He continued to gulp heavily down his throat, and as his feet left the ground by 40cm, he was completely unable to move around with his body.

“Dong.”

With the sound of a fool being hit, Oriana sent another punch into Kamijou’s chest.

“Eh…ugh…!!”

With a muffled sound, the fist sent Kamijou flying backwards by 3 meters.

(I can’t beat Oriana with just this…!!)

Lying on the ground, his hands supporting him, Kamijou felt the bitterness as he gritted his teeth.

Oriana specialized in using close ranged combat with her body, and long ranged combat with her spells. No matter how much Kamijou waved his hands and feet around to fight, or how many times he missed by a step, it was like there was a protective barrier between both of them, his feet normally being dodged at the last minute.

If so, he couldn’t attack Oriana like this.

No matter how much he tried to chase her, no matter how much he tried to hassle her, no matter how he desperately swung his fist, it was the same. - TAMI 10 C8 Part 5

Agnese harming Touma with punches

She didn’t seem to notice that the people inside were Kamijou and Orsola. She
slightly widened her eyes, and after staring at that boy’s face—
BAM!!
She punched Kamijou’s face without any hesitation.
“ACK…!?”
Being hit like this, Kamijou’s vision started to waver. He could hear Orsola’s
little cry. He was almost unconscious, not due to pain, but due to him being
unable to react in time. Right away, Agnese stepped forward and punched his
waist. Then, when Kamijou was unable to guard himself, Agnese’s small fist
targeted the youth’s flank from below.
DONG!! A blunt sound could be heard, as if a hammer smashed into luggage.
An irritating sound reverberated inside Kamijou. After that, Agnese punched
down on Kamijou’s back as he was bent in a ‘<’shape. Kamijou was unable to
fight back, and was only capable of lying down on the ground. After Agnese
backed away from him, she turned to look at Orsola. - TAMI 11

... Yeah, that's all for now. At the very least, Agnese's SS has reason to scale to her attack potency and durability, maybe.

 

[XDragnoir]

While not quite a verse-wide ability, it is a wide spread ability magicians have. I really don't think it should be so controversal to assume that something that's clearly vastly superhuman by the verse's own standard (the missle would no doubt have killed a regular soldier) being tanked would be due to supernatural reasons.
Like, Touma can't tank that kind of modern weapons. Vento can. Touma can still physically hit Vento. The most logical way to fit this together is that Imagine Breaker negates the superhuman durability of her, explaining how he can harm her despite the strength gap.

The fact the ability exists in the verse does not mean everyone gets it nor that we can assume someone was using it without the story ever bringing up, that's simple.

I've said this again, just didn't know I would need to say this to you as well, but we don't assume characters can do something without it being stated or via scaling of some type.

Also, Index's Walking Church also has the Shroud of Turin thing, Aisa's for example didn't seem to increase her defenses in any way, shape or form to my knowledge, it just sealed her ability, so WCs even if more widespread than I initially thought, their extra protection doesn't seem to be as widespread.

Also, for ***** sake, you're acting like Vento's feat is the first time a Toaru character survives an explosion.

I don't think "strength is a continuum" is very complicated of a concept. People don't operate on discrete levels. That's oversimplified, especially if you want to use it for an argument by exclusion.
You wouldn't assume that a human that punches a squirrel uses the same strength as one that punches another guy, even if both punches are holding back. For Junko most humans are squirrels in terms of strength.

That analogy of yours does not even apply to this case so just drop it.

Junko was younger (and therefore her body less developed, meaning she would be less capable of releasing her power than currently) and casual, meanwhile she was serious against Arei, no reason for her to be releasing less than the casual amount and there's no reason the casual amount wouldn't be comparable to the one used against Arei even if slightly higher.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Reading through Oriana's fight again, she surely scales physically to Touma.

As his thoughts started to vanish, Oriana, who finished using all her flashcards, came running over. She was planning to deal the final blow. Not by magic, but to crush Kamijou’s bones with her fist that was as hard as granite.

Oriana specialized in using close ra nged combat with her body, and long ranged combat with her spells. No matter how much Kamijou waved his hands and feet around to fight, or how many times he missed by a step, it was like there was a protective barrier between both of them, his feet normall y being dodged at the last minute.

Now that the distance was shortened, Oriana raised the billboard on her right side, and smashed it into Kamijou’s jaw with a hook- like manner. With a blunt sound, Kamijou’s body doubled over, falling backwards. “Ke… Ahhhhhh…!!” Kamijou’s thought process and breathing stopped at the same time, and he couldn’t even tell which side was the right side up. To him, the four directions were all messed up now, rotating all over the place. Even so, Kamijou still placed his hand on the ground to support himself, trying to get up.

Aside from that let's focus on the biggest issue to not let this become giant replies. We can go through the rest one by one later.

Why wouldn't their attacks be at peak strength or somewhere around that level? To Tatemiya (or any of the Amasuka), Touma, to his knowledge, was an enemy that was going to take Orsola to be brutally killed (and in fact declered that he was going to fight to kill him). To Terra, Touma was the dumbutt ruining his grand plans and someone that stands against everything he thinks is right.

You are forgetting the Touma vs. Accelerator fight where it has been made clear that Touma unconsciously does stuff to not get oneshot by attacks, by protecting his lethals and stuff.

I can compromise on making everyone straight Wall level, but upgrading 34 character which mostly have just Street level feats to Town level based on Touma tanking two random attacks with no impressive side-effects is not sufficient to me. Especially because those characters all have consistent anti-feats in terms of being harmed by large falls, bullets and explosive, because they can still be stopped by regular soldiers and because scaling wise they usually are in the situation where characters in the other scaling chain would kill them.

The reason Tatemiya even scales to 7-C is due to enduring the very attacks that were supposed to kill Touma. The strength gap is pretty clear.

What Terra's attack is concerned: Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that Touma evaluated an attack that bust down a large wall as being instant death to him. Also Terra was playing around a little, I think, as he was interested in Touma.

Update... Still have not seen the feat mentioned in Sasha's profile. Even checked my notes and couldn't find anything. Am still sure it exist but it is probably in one of the more minor SS... or might have missed a keyword, idk.

In other news... I bought a few other things in exchange.

Touma being hit by a magic attack from Oriana.

Oriana's spells vary in strength, I think. Remember that power is more spell dependent than mana pool dependent in Index. Oriana in particular only uses every spell once on principal, so she could easily have spells of different strength. Heck, remember the injury-based hax spell that oneshot Tsuchimikado?
She for instance thinks with prep she could defeat a saint.

Right now, she couldn’t tell whether Kanzaki Kaori would come there or not. Even if that Saint was to arrive, Oriana didn’t think that she’d lose. As long as she could set up an effective strategy, ready to sacrifice her limbs, she could probably kill one or two Saints in battle. But that wasn’t appropriate. Compared to a simple one on one battle, Oriana Thomson had to achieve a higher goal and not hurt anyone else.

(Given, could be via hax or stuff, but you get the idea)
And this one was a punch from what I read. So it is a physical enhancement spell, which is pretty different from her other stuff. (Assuming that's what the spell did, we are technically not explicitly told)
Oriana also explicitly wishes to kill as few people as possible, so chances are she is not trying to do lethal hits. She has explicitely avoided killing in her battles against them.

Oriana originally intended to use the vacuum blades that were coming out of the ground to surround Kamijou, making him unable to move before rendering him unconscious. Like how she didn’t kill off the professional magician, Tsuchimikado, in the first place, Oriana found that having someone dead would affect her own “work”.

She in fact has two kinds of spells, killer spells and non-killer spells. And most are the latter.

Although Oriana had quite a number of spells at her disposal, there was the limitation of being unable to reuse a spell that had been used before, so she had to pause and think about what could happen after that, and use whatever means to battle. But t is time, she had used two “killer spells” that she had never expected to use, only for the enemy to escape. Though she was satisfied with the excellent results, just thinking about how she was not going to use those spells a second time makes her somewhat lonely.

So chances are that was a non-killer spell which just doesn't cause that much damage to begin with.
Recall, her final attacks side-effects after being negated by Imagine Breaker alone nearly knocked out Touma. (more than Touma's punch harmed her....)
Just the stray shots from one of her spells, while not knocking out, did practically incapacitate Tshuchimikado. And she did even figure he would be dead.

The opposing magician seemed to have dodged into the blind corner of a pillar, and lowered his body to avoid further damage. However, that level of dodging wasn’t going to prevent him from getting hurt. On the back of Tsuchimikado, who was sprawled on the floor, there were four metal pieces pierced into his body. Each piece of shrapnel, which were several centimeters long, were as sharp as a knife. Several pieces of rubble from the damaged pillars had also slammed into his body, and each of those concrete slabs were as big as a honey dew.
[...]
Oriana was shocked by that voice. That “enemy” that was definitely buried together with his magic name wasn’t dead. “I can’t really see it… you can endure this strenuous exercise, huh ?” Oriana refused to admit defeat. Hearing that, the enemy magician on the ground slightly moved his lips, and smiled. It was like he wanted to smile to show that he was alive. Tsuchimikado Motoharu moved his bloodied lips and happily said, “Oriana Thom son, didn’t you say that in this boundary, ‘nobody from the outside will know what happens inside?’ I’ll be troubled if that’s the case.”
[...]

Tsuchimikado, who was on the floor, squeezed h is last ounce of strength, pulled a bar away from the rubble, and threw it onto the devastated floor. The gray dust was floating around like curtains.
[...]
Tsuchimikado was sprawled where Oriana had first done her flying kick. Now heavily injured, even if she was to use all her strength, he co uld only move that small distance. In other words, he removed the visibility of the enemy, using it to cause anxiety in Oriana, causing her to be unable to remain calm, and barely escaped from this predicament.

She also has spells that can explicitely kill Touma immediately and would cut of his arm of they hit it.

“Right now, I’m going to use the symbol of wind that’s in red. The angle is at 0 degree conjunction, total number of pages, 575, disposable- type spell, ‘Blade Crater’. You’ve been warned.”
She paused.
“You’ll die if you move,” She declared.
“But if you don’t move, you’ll surrender on the next move. You’re not a kid anymore, so decide what you should choose — pick your poison.”
Oriana pulled the thick piece of paper aside. On the thick piece of paper, pulled from the metal ring, were the red words “Wind Symbol”. (…) Kamijou placed his hand on the ground, supporting himself as he tried to get up, but his body, which was still shaking, was unable to respond immediately. Just trying to put a knee on the ground was difficult for him.
He thought that it was good that no one else was around. If anyone were to see this, it’d cause a commotion.
(Don’t move… huh?)
Remembering what Oriana had said, Kamijou felt something crawling below the ground. With Oriana as the center, there was a circle on the ground of a meter radius. Outside the circle, there were patterns similar to those of tree branches. It looked l ike those 166 capillaries around the eyeballs that were filled with blood. The patterns passed by Kamijou, through the roads, below the bicycles, the vehicles and the billboards, all the way in front of Tsuchimikado, who was lying on the ground.
“ — You’ll die if you move.”
The patterns on the ground gave off an irritating vibrating sound.
He might as well admit defeat, Kamijou thought weakly. He was totally unable to predict what kind of attack Oriana would use next, and thus he couldn’t think of any counterstrategies. Also, she did say that the damage would be enough to stop his heart if he took the next attack directly. (If I don’t move, the next move will be checkmate…)
The difference between the two choices was that the latter would solve this without k illing him. He’d probably be knocked unconscious like Tsuchimikado. Just like that. [...]
However, he ran out of the safety zone, and jumped into the vortex of blades. Besides getting cut, blood spilling out, and death, there was nothing else waiting for him. However. “!!” Kamijou’s body wasn’t cut. T he numerous blades shoot upwards from below the ground, and the 208 guillotine blades sliced the surrounding air — yet it was ineffective on him. He just so happened to jump into the area where there were less blades shooting out. Where Kamijou was standing could be considered as a second safety area that Oriana prepared. Oriana didn’t know how he figured it out, or whether it was all a coincidence.
[...]
Kamijou, who was roaring, waved his right hand at the vacuum blades in front of him. On first glance, it looked like a stupid act that would get his arm sliced off, yet the vacuum blades were shattered.

So yeah, under the right circumstances Touma can endure some attacks of Oriana. Under other circumstances a hit would kill him.

That goes against the order of events, however, though. Touma tackled her in the belly which knocked her out that then resulted in her falling down and Touma placing a "hand" on the back of her head. Keyword being "hand" as we don't know if that means his right or left hand. And what do you mean random Amasuka don't have feats? Itsuwa is literally just one of those random Amasuka herself, she is only "important" because Touma found her by sheer chance in OT14 and because she was the only Amasuka with a spear needed for Saint Killer in OT16 - other than those two "difference", Itsuwa and this random Amasuka girl are the same.

... That, and considering that all Amasuka are essentially taught the same skills and magic, there shouldn't be much of a difference even more.

Itsuwa is not just a random Amakusa. She could literally block attacks from Aqua going solo, if by a special spell. I don't think the others are ever stated to be equal to her and she has better feats.

What the girl was concerned: He managed to knock her back, but all damage is only noted to happen after he explicitely touched her to protect her head. Only then is the air knocked out of her.
So yeah, if she had magical defenses, Touma would have negated them before that point.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Junko was younger (and therefore her body less developed, meaning she would be less capable of releasing her power than currently) and casual, meanwhile she was serious against Arei, no reason for her to be releasing less than the casual amount and there's no reason the casual amount wouldn't be comparable to the one used against Arei even if slightly higher.

Yep, yep, what Noir said.

Itsuwa is not just a random Amakusa. She could literally block attacks from Aqua going solo, if by a special spell. I don't think the others are ever stated to be equal to her and she has better feats.

What the girl was concerned: He managed to knock her back, but all damage is only noted to happen after he explicitely touched her to protect her head. Only then is the air knocked out of her.
So yeah, if she had magical defenses, Touma would have negated them before that point.

Regarding the point about Itsuwa and Acqua... What...? Are you talking about their first encounter or their second, because-

“What about the main Amakusa force…”

At this moment, Itsuwa finally said something.

This seemed to indicate something, as Itsuwa looked around.

“It’s useless.”

Acqua interrupted her action with just this sentence alone.

“What happened to my comrades?”

“I didn’t kill them,”

Acqua simply said.

“The ones I want to take down aren’t them,”

[-]

Even so, Kamijou and Itsuwa concentrated all their nerves, not even letting their sights off Acqua’s movements. This battle couldn’t be avoided, and because they knew this, they wouldn’t recklessly attack, but would choose to fight back at the right time and deliver the decisive blow.

But then…

From the side.

“Gh!?”

Before Kamijou could swallow his breath, Acqua was already beside Itsuwa. He had vanished: Acqua’s speed could only be seen as such. Sneaking into Itsuwa’s arms, Acqua swung his elbow to attack Itsuwa’s face from the side.

Not even a single sound.

But Kamijou’s vision finally caught up with Itsuwa’s body that had been sent flying through the pedestrian walkway and onto the road. Kamijou himself couldn’t even breathe, yet even so, he tried to use all the remaining air in his lungs. Basically, he instinctively shouted,

“Itsuwa!?”

[-]

At this moment, his eyes looked off to the side.

The person who was trying her best to even stand up was Itsuwa. Maybe she had pulled it out before she threw the bag, but Itsuwa had already assembled the Friuli spear that could be dissembled anytime, the cross tip of the spear pointing at Acqua.

But Itsuwa had most likely taken a lot of damage from the initial hit. Red liquid was left on her lips, and her face that had been hit was all red as well. Even so, right now, Itsuwa looked like she might as well go do some casual fishing.

Acqua didn’t even smile.

He just warned, “You have an enemy that even an entire group couldn’t take down, and against such an opponent, you think you have a chance of winning?”

“…Even if it’s me…I have my own determination.”

Now, how much heavy emotion and realizations were put into this one sentence?

In contrast, Acqua just replied, “Is that so?”

Just that.

(Oh no…!!)

Kamijou tried to force his aching body to get between Itsuwa and Acqua. But in stark contrast to his thoughts, his body couldn’t move. During this time, Itsuwa and Acqua began fighting at close range.

Itsuwa’s movements were fast.

However, Acqua was fast to the point that he was basically disappearing. By the time he became aware, the huge metal mace had already sunk deeply into Itsuwa’s flank. After that, Acqua changes where he was facing, and using centrifugal force, he tossed Itsuwa to where Kamijou was.

-Well, as seen above, Acqua completely bodied Itsuwa. No stop. And the feat that you are talking about-

“Ugh!!”

With the sounds of rocks colliding with each other, Itsuwa’s spear received Acqua’s mace.

Normally, Itsuwa’s body would be crushed together with the Friuli Spear and blown away.

“This spear…?”

“Hehe, I made about 1,500 layers of resin on it.”

The two people’s weapons let out some squeaking sounds as they continued to bite into each other. Itsuwa smiled and said,

“The symbol behind this are the age rings of a tree, and the spell hidden within is the ‘reproductivity that plants possess’—until the spell reaches the end of the world, as time passes on, the hardness will continue to increase. I’ll let you see how much endurance it can gain after every second.”

-Only happened because Acqua promised to give the Amasuka an entire day to come to a choice of what they were going to do - and the Amasuka spent 5 or so hours to prep themselves the heck up as seen with Itsuwa... so yeah, Acqua feat doesn't count.

... And with that point with the random Amasuka... that's a weird order of events you've there, DT. Full stop.

Kamijou had already swung his arms to the side, flinging the blade away, and slammed into the girl's waist viciously. With his entire weight pressing against her, the blow bowled her over backwards. Kamijou was kind enough to protect the girl’s head with his hand, however, so the back of her head did not hit the ground full-force.

The collision knocked out all the air within the girl’s lungs, and she could not move. It was like someone who completely lost her body balance and got tossed by a judo throw; it was expected that she would faint.

The only way for your interpretation to have actually happened is if Touma hit her again after the tackle... but the text makes it very clear that the damage that Touma did happened as the collision did and that he did nothing else expect protect the already knocked out girl's head, so if the Amasuka did have magical defenses he would've still have to attacked her while they were on... and again, we don't know if it was the left hand or right hand that protected her head... and since the iconic IB sound effect was mentioned or implied to have occured, Touma negated nothing.

Reading through Oriana's fight again, she surely scales physically to Touma.

Regarding this... I agree, but I'll still have to argue that Touma scales physically above her to a small but still somewhat notable degree... Yada yada, Touma's punches still did quite a number on her once they landed but he is so unskilled when comparable to Oriana that his blows were easily diverted and evaded until Stiyl came to help... or rather be so bad when pairing up with Touma Oriana literally couldn't read their moves.

You are forgetting the Touma vs. Accelerator fight where it has been made clear that Touma unconsciously does stuff to not get oneshot by attacks, by protecting his lethals and stuff.

Vitals, xD.

But that was only on the level of choosing other body parts that should get hit that won't compromise on his, well, ability to keep fighting and living - like stopping a bunch of rocks from hitting his face by covering them up with his arms.

And on the stuff I shown, even if Touma had any way to lessen the damage - which is impossible since they were attacks that were either too fast for him to react or too hidden for him to notice - it would be extremely minor.

I can compromise on making everyone straight Wall level, but upgrading 34 character which mostly have just Street level feats to Town level based on Touma tanking two random attacks with no impressive side-effects is not sufficient to me. Especially because those characters all have consistent anti-feats in terms of being harmed by large falls, bullets and explosive, because they can still be stopped by regular soldiers and because scaling wise they usually are in the situation where characters in the other scaling chain would kill them.

The reason Tatemiya even scales to 7-C is due to enduring the very attacks that were supposed to kill Touma. The strength gap is pretty clear.

What Terra's attack is concerned: Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that Touma evaluated an attack that bust down a large wall as being instant death to him. Also Terra was playing around a little, I think, as he was interested in Touma.

Them, DT... Reduce the number. Like, say... Oumi scales to Arei due to the latter's strength coming from being a ninja and Oumi is from a ninja clan, ye? ... Then consider the fact that-

“…I’m going.”

Due to the thorough modification of her physical body, the girl who looked ten years old was the elite who had the role of the Pioneer. Those eyes showed the light of her existence that would not be extinguished no matter what damage happened to her body.

“I must obtain the stepping stone that will revitalize the Kouga. It doesn’t matter even if Natural Selector can’t continue. If this is something one must do, then as long as I come forward, it means others will not need stepping into such a threat in the future. I must go no matter what.”

Kumokawa Maria sighed.

She shook her head from side to side.

Then…

“I guess there’s no choice. I’ll hurt my pride to protect your life.”

There was no more time for questions.

Immediately after, Kumokawa Maria landed on four limbs and leaped over in a puzzling manner. Oumi Shuri lost consciousness.

-Maria immediately defeted her without any effort. Enshuu scales to Maria, and-

The helmeted man crouched down next to the unconscious Kumokawa Maria and checked her pulse and breathing. After ensuring there were no major problems, he turned back to Oumi Shuri.

“When this girl wakes up, tell her you will almost certainly die if you do not do as I suggested.”

“What are you going to do?”

“Sorry, but I have my own objective. As I said, I specialize in Kiharas. Also, I am not confident I would be able to protect you two,” answered the helmeted man as he headed for the exit with his battered coat dragging along.

His last words were spoken softly but in a tone that stuck with Oumi Shuri.

“After all, I am a Kihara myself.”

-Kagun scales to Enshu due to him being specialized in Kiharas and all that jazz; but-

He was Thor.

He was referred to as the god of thunder, he was especially skilled in direct combat even for a member of Gremlin, and he was their representative combat member.

He had the destructive power needed to wage a war all on his own.
[-]
“To befit the original meaning of the name, I headed down a certain path. If that girl hadn’t taken such ridiculous measures to gain knowledge even if she had to pull out one of her eyes and hang herself, I could have stood at the top of Gremlin.”
[-]
Kamijou rolled along the snow.

Instead of breathing, he coughed up dark red blood.

“Gh…kah…!!”

His breathing sounded sticky as he drowned in his own blood. He could feel his consciousness flickering in and out, but he also had another thought.

The force of the fist had been no less than that of a normal human. At the very least, it had not been as violent as a jackhammer. He was only coughing up blood because of the previous damage accumulated in his ribs.
[-]
How many times had he felt his fists smash into flesh and blood?

How many times had he watched the boy roll through the deep snow?

He heard a train’s wheels striking the track in the distance.

The next thing Thor knew, they had moved away from Egeskov Castle. Were they a few dozen meters away or a few hundred meters? He turned around, but the castle had vanished in the white scenery. Kamijou Touma’s repeated and futile attempts to move away and the countless blows knocking him through the snow had added up to that simple result.

-Thor is noted to be especially skilled in direct combat, is GERMLIN's representative combat member and would've stood at the top of GERMLIN if Othinus wasn't a magic; but even after Touma was exhausted by hours of traveling and accumlated a lot of damage from other battles (especially from the beat-down from Silvia that he had no possible way to heal from), he could still remain conscious and attempt to fight Thor even after he'd beat him a few dozen or a few hundred meters away from their initial battlefield.

So there, right there, we can cross off ninja clan people and most if not all of the railgun-only cast from scaling to Touma - or those who scale to him - in any way possible.

And onto your next point... Do you want me to show you other "random" attacks with no impressive side-effects that Touma has taken and had no possibe way to reduce the damage?

Rensa forcefully took the attack as if sacrificing one of her arms.
“Hey.” She then grabbed that wing with her hand. “Guess what, #2? My vector control
ability can alter the vectors of anything I touch. And that means…”
“…? Oh, no! Please get out of the way…!!”
“I can manipulate your Dark Matter, you idiot!!”
With a roar, the white wing twisted unnaturally as if it was a sugar sculpture being
stretched.
It flew in an irregular and difficult to predict trajectory and mercilessly slammed into
Kamijou’s upper body.
“Bh…gh!?”
It felt less like being hit by a blunt weapon and more like being hit by a car. All of the
oxygen left his lungs in an instant. He was slammed down to the ground where he rolled
backwards until he reached Fremea.
[-]

Othinus did not even need to move from that spot.

She only had to lightly raise the lance.

An invisible explosion would immediately smash Kamijou Touma’s body to pieces.

She had made this same attack countless times before. She had done it so many times that she could not distinguish her memories of doing it in the past from her vision of it happening in the future. The result was already known. The ideal destruction in her mind was nothing more than following the past, so there was no chance of failure. The actual results from the thousands or tens of thousands of previous times ensured the current result.

Yet…

In the next instant, Kamijou accurately evaded the invisible explosion by leaping to the side.
[...]
(Dh…!!)

The intense pain striking Kamijou Touma’s entire body caused him to grimace.

He had somehow escaped the lethal area, but the explosion still hit him in midair.

He struck the dirt ground after being thrown further than his expected landing point. His excess momentum sent him rolling even further.

Even so, he endured.

“…”

Othinus turned her one eye toward her target and held up the lance once more.

[-]


Kamijou Touma and Kihara Yuiitsu’s gazes clashed.

And…

This time, they both sent out attacks.

Kamijou made a scooping uppercut.

Yuiitsu let a torrent of Sample Shoggoth erupt from her right wrist.

Both attacks hit, but that meant neither one was a clean hit. Kamijou’s right fist caught Yuiitsu’s jaw and Yuiitsu’s torrent swept Kamijou away.

“Ghh!!”

“Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!”

[-]


Kamijou Touma finally arrived right in front of Aleister.

But the Board Chairman was not out of ammunition yet. While it was limited to the magic he used, he could wield a power similar to the sparks or spray created from the colliding phases and he could direct it toward a target.

This was the same sort of power that had driven his beloved daughter to her death. It was a contradictory hidden technique covered in the same sin as those he so hated.

What did it feel like to have that as his only option for a final trump card?

Aleister Crowley was constantly failing.

That was already well established, but Kamijou could not help but sense the irony of fate here.

And Kamijou Touma never did think about dodging.

This was nothing as clean as a cross counter.

Both of their attacks stabbed mercilessly into the other’s body.

Kamijou Touma’s ribs cried out in protest. The invisible attack that dug into his side worked at destroying his flesh.

Meanwhile, his fist definitely buried itself in the Board Chairman’s face. He could feel something small breaking in that face.

[-]


Thus, the Golden leader would never overlook that moment.

“Cold and dry, then hot and wet.”

When Kamijou heard those words, he held his right hand up before even turning his head.

But the initial scattershot of small stones was accelerated even further by a gust of wind behind it. That threw off the boy’s rhythm. The attack hit before he could get his right hand up. He may have been able to stop it if it had had that speed to begin with, but the secondary acceleration had messed with his timing.

It was not quite the same as being stabbed with a knife.

Dull pain exploded across his entire upper body as hard and dull objects were forcibly pushed into him.

“Gah.”

He lost his balance and fell from the carriage.

The deadly asphalt was rushing by at 180km/h below and the female knight could not catch him on the horse because she had charged at the Golden magicians.

[-]


The world shook.

Time stopped within Shokuhou Misaki.

Great Demon Coronzon’s Aethyr Avatar had swung down a merciless attack capable of breaking up through the heavy castle.

But.

But.

This roar had not come from the golden angel.

“Damn…you!!”

That voice did not belong to Academy City’s #5. Nor did it belong to Coronzon.

Yes, there did not need to be any clues leading here.

The girl had forgotten.

Did he fight because of the special power in his right hand? Did he fight because he recognized someone’s face? Did he fight because he had following a logical chain of clues to reach that point?

No, no, and no.

There was a simple explanation for it all: Kamijou Touma fought because he was Kamijou Touma.

Whether or not he had a right hand or not was irrelevant.

There was a sound like human flesh being shaved away by a file.

His arm no longer had Imagine Breaker. In fact, it had no fist and the gruesome wound past the elbow had only been cauterized to stop the bleeding.

The pain had to be far greater than what Shokuhou Misaki felt after using her power to block it.

He was receiving another fierce attack on top of a wound that had to be hard enough to accept already. He used his own arm as a cushion to slightly divert the Aethyr Avatar’s path. This did not qualify as dodging or defending. It was not a proper give-and-take arrangement. But that was obvious when he was faced with the meaningless choice of deciding which was the best body part to let the dump truck hit.

He could easily have died from shock due to the pain signals alone.

And.

And yet.

“Are you…hurt?”

Those were the first words out of the boy’s mouth.

“Everything’s okay now… I’ll push back…this damn thing!!”

[-]

That was critically important, so Kamijou Touma put on a belligerent smile.

“What kind of ‘Breaker’ was that? Honestly, who cares? You keep going so over the top that it all starts to look cheap, so I can’t help but wonder. You’re not even using that Aiwass you made a point of showing off earlier, are you? Since you broke your own rules to stop me with your left hand, let me guess: getting punched hurts like hell even for a legendary magician, doesn’t it? Am I wrong, Anna Sprengel?”

“Who gave you permission to speak?”

This time, she pressed her right palm against the boy’s stomach.

He had swung his fist and had it blocked, so he was defenseless at the moment.

The girl with the wounded pride widened her eyes as far as they would go.

“Do not get carried away. You should be dead already.”

A human-sized mass was blasted backwards as if by a point-blank shotgun blast.

Rensa via Beetle's DM Wing, Othinus' explosion, Aleister's Magic, Mathers Magic, Coronzon's Avatar and even Anna's Magic - all of these are from people who wanted to harm Touma, wanted to kill or just sufficiently injure him to stop his appoarch in Aleister's case - but even at their weakest, they should be comparable if not rightfully above the 7-C rating that Tatemiya scales to...

And do we even have to talk about Touma and Accelerator's second fight... The one in which Accelerator was going all-out even if it destroyed his mind - and again Touma doesn't have the skill to reduce the attack potency of Accelerator's attacks by 99.99%... Although, this point I am never going to change my mind on, kek.

Also, also... Falling and guns usually tend to be extremely inconsistent with power scaling considering we can have verses that have characters that are millions if not billions of times stronger than falls and bullets but are still able to be harmed or killed by 'em. Explosions can vary in strength, smth, smth about heat and piercing damage (and verses can also be inconsistent with 'em too)... And that last point...

After a count of three, Sergeant Ingrid slowly and silently stood up.

She was only two meters behind Kamijou Touma and Othinus.

[...]​

Kamijou did not understand what had happened to him.

He found himself unable to breathe and his vision filled with white like an overexposed photograph. Heat quickly gathered above his neck and he could not move his head well, so he reached for his neck and finally found a dry sensation.

An arm was strangling him from behind.

By the time he determined that, he had already lost feeling in his limbs. Rather than crushing his windpipe and preventing him from breathing, the attacker was placing pressure on his carotid arteries to keep blood from his brain. Before he could even resist, his consciousness slipped into a world of darkness.

-Touma was quite literally strangled because he was too distracted by watching tanks through a method that almost immediately knocked him out because he could even try anything. That's more of a skill issue tainted with PIS on Touma's part.

For the Terra point... As they say... DC ≠ AP. And Terra's casual attack was still the same attack that one-shotted Itsuwa on-impact. You can't really ignore that fact.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

will comment on the Oriana points... later. I got some gacha hell business to take care, xD.... and actually business too, kek.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Oriana's spells vary in strength, I think. Remember that power is more spell dependent than mana pool dependent in Index. Oriana in particular only uses every spell once on principal, so she could easily have spells of different strength. Heck, remember the injury-based hax spell that oneshot Tsuchimikado?
She for instance thinks with prep she could defeat a saint.

(Given, could be via hax or stuff, but you get the idea)
And this one was a punch from what I read. So it is a physical enhancement spell, which is pretty different from her other stuff. (Assuming that's what the spell did, we are technically not explicitly told)

Yes, I do remember, but as you said... She only uses every spell once on principal; we don't know if she has access to another such spell or if that is the only spell of that kind she has.

Yeah, and that's prep... which is pretty crazy for ToAru's magicians. With prep, we have Amasuka-tier people being able to reach the speed of a Saint like Acqua - albeit, said speed is a step behind his - and items that can take his hits in where normally they would be shattered on impact. And there's Birdway... Well, to be fair, she had full access to Index's knowledge and several hours of prep time for her crazy prep thing with Gungnir... and even then, it would only work because she used it on the two people in existence that has seen Gungnir's full-power (and is quite literally a once-in-a-lifetime feat for her)

Secondly ... How the **** did you come to the idea that Oriana would punch. That's the stupid, DT... Sorrry, sorry, let's get back to the point, lel.

Thirdly... There is a 99% chance that Oriana's phase, "sacrifice her limbs" is just a figure of speech of the immense amount of stuff that needs to happen in order for her to kill a Saint... like considering they are faster and physically stronger than a good 70% of the verse, Oriana's words are essentially her saying that "yes, she can possibly do it, but it is going to suck big time" in a nutshell.

Laura sighed heavily.

"I hope that you can clean up the mess before Kanzaki does something seriously bad; that is your main priority. I do not care what you do, whether it is saving The Book of the Law or Orsola, telling the Amakusa to surrender, or forcing the Amakusa or Kanzaki to surrender."

"You’re telling me to beat Kanzaki?"

"If there is such a need."

Laura said clearly and forcefully, "Once the rest of our members are done with their missions, I will be sending them to Japan and Rome. I hope that you can do this on your own, however. Go to Academy City first."

As if spitting his doubts out, Stiyl blew the white smoke of the cigarette out of his mouth. He was not worried about having to do this alone, the magician Stiyl just was not suited to working in a team. Besides his character flaws, the flame magic he used was a huge problem; if he was not careful and used his full power, the comrades around him might end up getting swallowed by flames and smoke.

His Innocentius became stronger the more runes there were. It may be unreliable, but its power could not be belittled. The 3,000-degree-Celsius fire could move about freely. To pursue its enemies, it could even melt iron easily. To enemies, it was like a god of death. Besides that boy's right hand, there was almost no way to stop Innocentius. Using that terrifying magic, Stiyl had destroyed several magical societies on his own.

Even, Stiyl has that kind of statement. And it is actually a bit more creditable since Lola and him are talking about his partner; Stiyl also isn't an idiot, and Lola also isn't evil enough (at this point) to pointlessly send a useful pawn of hers to die.

She in fact has two kinds of spells, killer spells and non-killer spells. And most are the latter.

So chances are that was a non-killer spell which just doesn't cause that much damage to begin with.
Recall, her final attacks side-effects after being negated by Imagine Breaker alone nearly knocked out Touma. (more than Touma's punch harmed her....)
Just the stray shots from one of her spells, while not knocking out, did practically incapacitate Tshuchimikado. And she did even figure he would be dead.

She also has spells that can explicitely kill Touma immediately and would cut of his arm of they hit it.

So yeah, under the right circumstances Touma can endure some attacks of Oriana. Under other circumstances a hit would kill him.

That text doesn't even refer to her other spells as a "non-killer spell"; what Oriana was likely referring to as her "killer spells" were her "Blade Crater" spell and "Drop Rest" spell considering her usage of "But this time, she had used two “killer spells” that she had never expected to use, only for the enemy to escape", the former was literally just a spell meant to trap Touma in place so she could knock him unconscious, which is info you had provided, and the latter is just "an attack that would knock out others without hurting them".

In conclusion, Oriana's killer spells are just her spells to... not kill, as weird as it sounds.

Yeah? It is strongest spell and its side-effects were meant to counter IB... also, smth, smth, debris propelled by a tier-smth explosion is likely tier-smth themselves if they weren't turned to dust, or... as stated before... DC ≠ AP.

... Recall this. Upon recollecting upon Touma's punch, Oriana blacked out for a moment and struggled to stay on her feet. The first direct punch that Touma actually landed caused her to stop breathing properly for a good few moments to the point she couldn't even cast a spell properly, second punch (aided by Stiyl) actually caused Oriana to fall unconscious but her willpower said no and she forced herself back and the third punch knocked her out for good. Debris propelled by her strongest spell just made Touma almost fall unconscious but his willpower said "no".... also, smth smth, it took a bit of time for Stiyl to wake up, but Touma was still up-and-about, attempting to fight her while she held a massive skill and experience advantage over her.

Why are you bringing up Tsuchimikado? ... I get the idea and all, but... When Oriana confronted him in... OT10? Tsuchimikado was already weakened by using magic once (or twice), and he already made a show of his body getting screwed up by it (since magic usage for him is just russian roulette).

... Wasn't Blade Crater just a massive feint, though? It was just meant to trap him in one place so she can render him unconscious without killing him. What's the point?

Yeah, so? That's a given.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yep, yep, what Noir said.

Regarding the point about Itsuwa and Acqua... What...? Are you talking about their first encounter or their second, because-


[-]

[-]

-Well, as seen above, Acqua completely bodied Itsuwa. No stop. And the feat that you are talking about-

-Only happened because Acqua promised to give the Amasuka an entire day to come to a choice of what they were going to do - and the Amasuka spent 5 or so hours to prep themselves the heck up as seen with Itsuwa... so yeah, Acqua feat doesn't count.

... And with that point with the random Amasuka... that's a weird order of events you've there, DT. Full stop.

Not really. Yeah, I mean the spell. Obviously she gets destroyed regularly. But Itsuwa managed to cast such a powerful spell while the rest has no feats close to that. Sufficient to prove that she is not just random fodder among them.

The only way for your interpretation to have actually happened is if Touma hit her again after the tackle... but the text makes it very clear that the damage that Touma did happened as the collision did and that he did nothing else expect protect the already knocked out girl's head, so if the Amasuka did have magical defenses he would've still have to attacked her while they were on... and again, we don't know if it was the left hand or right hand that protected her head... and since the iconic IB sound effect was mentioned or implied to have occured, Touma negated nothing.

Consider the order of events here. The collision mentioned after Touma knocked her over and protected her head with his hand is the collision with the ground, not the initial collision with Touma.

Regarding this... I agree, but I'll still have to argue that Touma scales physically above her to a small but still somewhat notable degree... Yada yada, Touma's punches still did quite a number on her once they landed but he is so unskilled when comparable to Oriana that his blows were easily diverted and evaded until Stiyl came to help... or rather be so bad when pairing up with Touma Oriana literally couldn't read their moves.

I really don't care. Point is, they are pretty damn close to each other.

Vitals, xD.

But that was only on the level of choosing other body parts that should get hit that won't compromise on his, well, ability to keep fighting and living - like stopping a bunch of rocks from hitting his face by covering them up with his arms.

And on the stuff I shown, even if Touma had any way to lessen the damage - which is impossible since they were attacks that were either too fast for him to react or too hidden for him to notice - it would be extremely minor.

He managed it against a snow tsunami that should have killed him against Accelerator, so... yeah. Just taking a bunch of lethal hits to other parts would not let you keep fighting. That's just not how it would realistically work, it's a kind of bullshit superhuman skill or the author just not caring much.
Point is, I don't trust a random belly hit from a random spell with this much against it.

Them, DT... Reduce the number. Like, say... Oumi scales to Arei due to the latter's strength coming from being a ninja and Oumi is from a ninja clan, ye? ... Then consider the fact that-

-Maria immediately defeted her without any effort. Enshuu scales to Maria, and-

-Kagun scales to Enshu due to him being specialized in Kiharas and all that jazz; but-

-Thor is noted to be especially skilled in direct combat, is GERMLIN's representative combat member and would've stood at the top of GERMLIN if Othinus wasn't a magic; but even after Touma was exhausted by hours of traveling and accumlated a lot of damage from other battles (especially from the beat-down from Silvia that he had no possible way to heal from), he could still remain conscious and attempt to fight Thor even after he'd beat him a few dozen or a few hundred meters away from their initial battlefield.

So there, right there, we can cross off ninja clan people and most if not all of the railgun-only cast from scaling to Touma - or those who scale to him - in any way possible.

No. You're insinuating that Thor's non-magical physical strength, the very strength he can explicitly boost but didn't in his fight against Touma, is above Kagun. But you don't have the evidence for Thor scaling above him non-magically at all.
Just look at the physical scaling you yourself put on the profiles and see how everyone scales to Touma right now.

And onto your next point... Do you want me to show you other "random" attacks with no impressive side-effects that Touma has taken and had no possibe way to reduce the damage?

Rensa via Beetle's DM Wing, Othinus' explosion, Aleister's Magic, Mathers Magic, Coronzon's Avatar and even Anna's Magic - all of these are from people who wanted to harm Touma, wanted to kill or just sufficiently injure him to stop his appoarch in Aleister's case - but even at their weakest, they should be comparable if not rightfully above the 7-C rating that Tatemiya scales to...

Rensa's was redirecting an attack Kakine has control over and would have tried to stop, which explicitly was like getting hit by a car. So that's out.

Othinus' explosion? The one explicitly noted to be able to blow him to smithereens and having done so countless time? That he explicitly mitigated by dodging it? Nope.

An attack of Aleister who definitely doesn't want to kill him? And an attack with spray which is more durability circumvention that necessarily strong? Yeah, no.

Mathers feat called 180 km/h asphalt lethal in the same breath. I doubt the attack he came up with more to circumvent imagine breaker was full strength.

The Aethyr Avatar is neither a full strength attack of Coronzon nor did Touma tank it. He slightly diverted the attack by sacrificing part of his body. Kinda similar to how Yuiitsu's shit works, no?

Anna's attack was compared to a shotgun blast. I'm also fairly sure Anna's regular attacks were already said to be lethal to Touma.

That great firepower had been entirely unpredictable.

That kind of unfair attack would normally kill you before you even realized what it was.

With each casual swing of the sexy woman’s long hand, a powerful gust of wind would blow through, caustic acid would spread out like an amoeba, or a bright light would flash.

The movement of her hand was more like a pliant whip than a solid fist. She put on the smile of a ****** while mercilessly producing deadly slap after deadly slap.

Instead of trying to kill him with the occult, she was trying to kill with him with physical attacks. She would shatter a glass showcase to kill him with the shards flying toward him.

I mean, really, do you actually intend to scale Oriana's physical hits to the level of Anna's magic? Tsuchimikado has fists comparable to the magic of the strongest magicians? That's completely unrealistic. Heck, with how many magicians probably have spells that can one shot Touma (Oriana has one and fairly sure I could find a lot more if I tried)
Heck, freaking Sherry could kill him.

Raising its fist, Ellis was just nicely positioned above Kamijou. In th at situation, even if Kamijou used his right hand and destroyed Ellis ’ fist, several tons of rubble would collapse and crush him to death.

If you have proven anything here, it's that for one reason or another Touma surviving shit should generally not be used for scaling purposes. It could be outside circumstances, it could be him having immense skill, it could be outliers or just that not all spells of magicians are close in strength to each other. Take whichever excuse you like, but scaling anyone that can harm Touma to people whose attacks he once survived won't work.

And do we even have to talk about Touma and Accelerator's second fight... The one in which Accelerator was going all-out even if it destroyed his mind - and again Touma doesn't have the skill to reduce the attack potency of Accelerator's attacks by 99.99%... Although, this point I am never going to change my mind on, kek.

Yeah, seeing how the novel makes it clear how immensely lethal the attacks are and how Touma skills through them I have to disagree.

Also, also... Falling and guns usually tend to be extremely inconsistent with power scaling considering we can have verses that have characters that are millions if not billions of times stronger than falls and bullets but are still able to be harmed or killed by 'em.

Often those are super bullets.
That aside, verses being inconsistent with them, doesn't mean you can delete them from the outlier statistic. Especially since Touma is not intended to be superhuman, unlike other verse's characters with this problem.

Explosions can vary in strength, smth, smth about heat and piercing damage (and verses can also be inconsistent with 'em too)... And that last point...

Explosions are pretty much the same attacks as he was attacked with in some of your examples. Heck, Anna's attack was compared to a shotgun and Mathers attacks were essentially like bullets.
You can't discount them on one end and use them on the other.

-Touma was quite literally strangled because he was too distracted by watching tanks through a method that almost immediately knocked him out because he could even try anything. That's more of a skill issue tainted with PIS on Touma's part.

You can not strangle a character a billion times stronger than you regardless of how distracted they are.
To that comes that the author contextualizes it in the afterword by explicitly saying that Touma isn't easily dealing with that kind of opponent via brute force.

For the Terra point... As they say... DC ≠ AP. And Terra's casual attack was still the same attack that one-shotted Itsuwa on-impact. You can't really ignore that fact.

I can, however, argue that a random flick with a weapon against a person he is interested to play around with isn't the same strength as the one that K.O.s Itsuwa after collapsing a ceiling on her.

Yes, I do remember, but as you said... She only uses every spell once on principal; we don't know if she has access to another such spell or if that is the only spell of that kind she has.

Yeah, and that's prep... which is pretty crazy for ToAru's magicians. With prep, we have Amasuka-tier people being able to reach the speed of a Saint like Acqua - albeit, said speed is a step behind his - and items that can take his hits in where normally they would be shattered on impact. And there's Birdway... Well, to be fair, she had full access to Index's knowledge and several hours of prep time for her crazy prep thing with Gungnir... and even then, it would only work because she used it on the two people in existence that has seen Gungnir's full-power (and is quite literally a once-in-a-lifetime feat for her)

Now remember that all spells Oriana has are basically prepared in advance... So yeah, you basically acknowledge already that there is no reason completely different spells have the same strength.

Secondly ... How the **** did you come to the idea that Oriana would punch. That's the stupid, DT... Sorrry, sorry, let's get back to the point, lel.

Because Oriana did actually punch, while we are not told about any spell effect manifesting? Or which quote are you referring to?

Thirdly... There is a 99% chance that Oriana's phase, "sacrifice her limbs" is just a figure of speech of the immense amount of stuff that needs to happen in order for her to kill a Saint... like considering they are faster and physically stronger than a good 70% of the verse, Oriana's words are essentially her saying that "yes, she can possibly do it, but it is going to suck big time" in a nutshell.

Even, Stiyl has that kind of statement. And it is actually a bit more creditable since Lola and him are talking about his partner; Stiyl also isn't an idiot, and Lola also isn't evil enough (at this point) to pointlessly send a useful pawn of hers to die.

Yeah, I'm not trying to scale her to saints. But the point is: Spells have different strength and you should probably not scale every random spell Touma tanks to the strongest spell the magician has shown.

That text doesn't even refer to her other spells as a "non-killer spell"; what Oriana was likely referring to as her "killer spells" were her "Blade Crater" spell and "Drop Rest" spell considering her usage of "But this time, she had used two “killer spells” that she had never expected to use, only for the enemy to escape", the former was literally just a spell meant to trap Touma in place so she could knock him unconscious, which is info you had provided, and the latter is just "an attack that would knock out others without hurting them".

In conclusion, Oriana's killer spells are just her spells to... not kill, as weird as it sounds.

Eh, no. Her killer spells are the spells that are lethal. The Blade Crater one explicitely were. She just used a spell that was absolutely lethal to Touma in a strategy to not have to actually kill him.

That does still mean that Oriana has some spells that actually kill people and some spells that don't. And most of her spells don't, so scaling based on purposefully not lethal spells makes no sense.

Yeah? It is strongest spell and its side-effects were meant to counter IB... also, smth, smth, debris propelled by a tier-smth explosion is likely tier-smth themselves if they weren't turned to dust, or... as stated before... DC ≠ AP.

Yeah, but it again shows well that not all her spells are the same strength and you should consider that when scaling.

... Recall this. Upon recollecting upon Touma's punch, Oriana blacked out for a moment and struggled to stay on her feet. The first direct punch that Touma actually landed caused her to stop breathing properly for a good few moments to the point she couldn't even cast a spell properly, second punch (aided by Stiyl) actually caused Oriana to fall unconscious but her willpower said no and she forced herself back and the third punch knocked her out for good. Debris propelled by her strongest spell just made Touma almost fall unconscious but his willpower said "no".... also, smth smth, it took a bit of time for Stiyl to wake up, but Touma was still up-and-about, attempting to fight her while she held a massive skill and experience advantage over her.

Your point?

Why are you bringing up Tsuchimikado? ... I get the idea and all, but... When Oriana confronted him in... OT10? Tsuchimikado was already weakened by using magic once (or twice), and he already made a show of his body getting screwed up by it (since magic usage for him is just russian roulette).

He also just received a stray shot. Oriana figured that alone should have taken him out, but he managed to stay conscious but unable to move. He didn't collapse form his prior injuries, but from the spell's damage. Like, this isn't an issue of blood loss alone.
That spell clearly did more damage to Tsuchimikado, who is above Touma, than the spell you are suggesting did to Touma. The conclusion is that the spell she hit Touma with was weaker.

... Wasn't Blade Crater just a massive feint, though? It was just meant to trap him in one place so she can render him unconscious without killing him. What's the point?

It wasn't as much a feint as an open strategy. Launch a spell absolutely lethal to Touma everywhere but one shot, so that he has to stay in that spot and take the non-lethal spell afterwards.
That the spell is lethal wasn't a lie, it was explicitly said it was. It was just not supposed to hit Touma in this plan.

Yeah, so? That's a given.

If that's a given, then your argument that he scales to her magic makes no sense.

---

Like, TL;DR you bring up Touma questionably handling random attacks and stray shots from

• Three 7-C opponents
• A 7-B to 6-C opponent
• An at least 6-C which is regarded the strongest magician in history
• A at least 5-B opponent that is a greater magician than the former.
• A Tier 1 opponent
• Another supposedly 5-B opponent

(ignoring the problems I pointed out)
and you want us to take that as evidence that Touma's durability is consistent and he should be 7-C?

At the same time:

1. Touma can't beat regular soldiers without tricks and was on one occasion chocked out by one.
2. Is clearly stated to die from high falls on several occasions.
3. He can be harmed by lots of characters with no real physical feats and would scale to dozens characters with Street to Wall level feats at best. Characters which logically operate on a human level, I might add. Like "I can't just blow a hole in the wall" levels of strength.
4. Dies from hitting the asphalt at 180 km/h.
5. Dies from any kind of modern weaponry scoring a direct hit.
6. Dies from literally just the weight of a 9-B Golem collapsing on him.
7. Can be instant killed by one of the 7-C people whose magic you want to scale him to.
8. Can be easily impaled by the flame sword of the guy who is the source of one of the other 7-C magician even scaling to that.
9. All of the above are vastly below all the non-7-C people in your list, to the point that they would oneshot them. (And the 9-B golem is vastly below even the 7-C ones)
10. Even the side effects of the attacks of some 6-C opponent are explicitly lethal on a proper hit.
11. One of the attacks of the 5-B opponents was supposed to kill him. Even the shards scattered of it blowing apart a glass case apparently would have killed him.
12. Saints like Kanzaki can oneshot him and are vastly below several of the people on that list.

Like, as I said earlier those feats you brought up are generally pretty damn questionable to be any proper evidence in powerscaling. But if you wish to consider them at all, then they clearly are immensely inconsistent and all over the place.
I could probably search through of Touma's fights and would find some statement of an attack that can kill or heavily injure them in most of them.
Feats of Touma occasionally surviving a random shot from an opponent that should be easily be strong enough to oneshot him should not be taken as evidence for super high durability with those many logical problems tied to it.
It simply makes no sense in the overall context of the verse.

So yeah, let's not use Touma surviving random hits from people of vastly different power that should all be able to oneshot him (some explicitely, some due to scaling above people that can) as evidence, but instead keep it to people with which he can have fist fights of tanking and receiving hits.
I can compromise on giving him some rating, like, "can much survive higher attacks via skill" or something like that. But no durability that scales to anyone that can hit him... as that's literally anyone with some basic fight style. (Wasn't there even some statement that anyone with some martial arts training can defeat him?)

 

[XDragnoir]

In fact, your own argumentation seems to speak against you. You know what magicians are even less stated to have than magically enhanced durability? Superhuman non-magical durability. The novels give vastly more evidence for magicians to have magic-based super durability than for them to have biology-based super durability.

Feats speak by themselves, supernatural abilities don't (i.e superhuman durability can be added without a statement when it comes from a direct feat, magical protections have to be stated to be in use).

I am proposing that the mechanism behind Vento's superhuman durability is magic, because she is a magician and plenty of magicians are known to have spells that do that, to the point that the author likely feels no need to repeat it when it's clearly shown that the magician did something superhuman. Kamachi probably thinks that if a magician does something clearly humanly impossible, readers will put 2 and 2 together and conclude it's magic.
You are proposing that Vento is using a non-magical power system to get superhuman durability which was never acknowledged to exist for any character at all.

Name 3 unrelated magicians that have spells that are constantly amping their dura.

Yumiya survived the explosions, one of the Tobio sisters kicked down a door (which was calced at 9A or 9B+ iirc), Vento did this, there are probably a few more feats in the 9B-9B+ range too.

An attack of Aleister who definitely doesn't want to kill him? And an attack with spray which is more durability circumvention that necessarily strong? Yeah, no.

I agree with the rest but since when does spray "circumvent" durability? I was pretty sure it was just an attack from a strange angle, no special property to ignore durability or some minor hax to bypass it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I will address only this one for now since I want to get the fundamental scaling settled before addressing more minor parts.

I agree with the rest but since when does spray "circumvent" durability? I was pretty sure it was just an attack from a strange angle, no special property to ignore durability or some minor hax to bypass it.

I'm fairly sure it harms internal organs for one. Like, when Aleister accepts the spray of his spells into himself he usually isn't noted to have external injuries... I think. He just spits blood.
The other thing to consider is that the same sparks and spray is responsible for all kinds of events, like the illness of Lilith. So they probably can damage things in various ways. Well, maybe that's speculative for Aleister's technique.

Although I would still think that the sprays that are mere unintentional side effects of his magic (which he tries to suppress to the best of his ability) should usually not scale to his magic in power.

 

[XDragnoir]

I will address only this one for now since I want to get the fundamental scaling settled before addressing more minor parts.

I'm fairly sure it harms internal organs for one. Like, when Aleister accepts the spray of his spells into himself he usually isn't noted to have external injuries... I think. He just spits blood.
The other thing to consider is that the same sparks and spray is responsible for all kinds of events, like the illness of Lilith. So they probably can damage things in various ways. Well, maybe that's speculative for Aleister's technique.

Although I would still think that the sprays that are mere unintentional side effects of his magic (which he tries to suppress to the best of his ability) should usually not scale to his magic in power.

The natural sparks do have more supernatural effects yes, but when Aleister uses them as an offensive spell they're never stated to be able to do that iirc, even his profile only mentions his sparks as being "an invisible attack from an unexpected angle", so I don't think even our profiles agree with you here.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Goodness, ToAru threads are always going to be stuck in constant replies with just three different people, huh? I wonder if this is why no mods ever come to this verse CRTs anymore, kek.

Not really. Yeah, I mean the spell. Obviously she gets destroyed regularly. But Itsuwa managed to cast such a powerful spell while the rest has no feats close to that. Sufficient to prove that she is not just random fodder among them.

Again, DT... With several hours of prep time; sure, we could argue Itsuwa is more powerful with prep, but... there's still nothing differentiating Itsuwa and any other Amasuka outside of it... and considering that they all pratice the same style of magic, religion and lifestyle this isn't too surprising.

Consider the order of events here. The collision mentioned after Touma knocked her over and protected her head with his hand is the collision with the ground, not the initial collision with Touma.

Eh. Agree to disagree. But I will still point out there is still no mention of which hand Touma used, no mention of anything being negated and even if the Amasuka had a magic physical buff-plus-protection it is likely IB would've only negated the parts around her head and no where else.

I really don't care. Point is, they are pretty damn close to each other.

It's called proper scaling, though. xD. Yeah, I get your point, so no use arguing about it.

He managed it against a snow tsunami that should have killed him against Accelerator, so... yeah. Just taking a bunch of lethal hits to other parts would not let you keep fighting. That's just not how it would realistically work, it's a kind of bullshit superhuman skill or the author just not caring much.
Point is, I don't trust a random belly hit from a random spell with this much against it.

... Eh? I can't really envision them as a skill (or whatever you are arguing) and see as moreso as an actual durability feat considering the random spell (or Accelerator's hits) aren't piercing through Touma's body and/or causing severe harm/bodily destruction upon impact. Which is legit just durability in a nutshell, so eh.

No. You're insinuating that Thor's non-magical physical strength, the very strength he can explicitly boost but didn't in his fight against Touma, is above Kagun. But you don't have the evidence for Thor scaling above him non-magically at all.
Just look at the physical scaling you yourself put on the profiles and see how everyone scales to Touma right now.

... Okay, what are you talking about? The only offensive magic that Thor has shown was his Arc Blades and that was explicitly only a spell Thor could use with Mjolnir; the only other spells he has shown (or was implied to have via Ollerus) was Almighty Thor, disguise magic, healing magic and that fur platform spell... There's also that belt but it really doesn't matter too much as Touma exchanged blows with Thor while he was wearing it, so eh. Getting back to the point; if Thor is GERMLIN's respective combat member, the strongest if one doesn't include Othinus, his only offensive means he has is through H2H and he knows about Kagun's existence that does imply he has some "sort" of superior over Kagun, or at the very least, they are comparable to each other.

Yes, and I ****** up because that's literally the result of doing a verse-wide CRT as my third (or somth) ever CRT without anybody helping or giving pointers on what to do. Thanks a lot, DT. Just kidding, just kidding, though. Still a **** up on my part... but I'll admit that I barely even touched the justifications since I was afraid of fricking smth up.

Rensa's was redirecting an attack Kakine has control over and would have tried to stop, which explicitly was like getting hit by a car. So that's out.

Othinus' explosion? The one explicitly noted to be able to blow him to smithereens and having done so countless time? That he explicitly mitigated by dodging it? Nope.

An attack of Aleister who definitely doesn't want to kill him? And an attack with spray which is more durability circumvention that necessarily strong? Yeah, no.

Mathers feat called 180 km/h asphalt lethal in the same breath. I doubt the attack he came up with more to circumvent imagine breaker was full strength.

The Aethyr Avatar is neither a full strength attack of Coronzon nor did Touma tank it. He slightly diverted the attack by sacrificing part of his body. Kinda similar to how Yuiitsu's shit works, no?

Anna's attack was compared to a shotgun blast. I'm also fairly sure Anna's regular attacks were already said to be lethal to Touma.




I mean, really, do you actually intend to scale Oriana's physical hits to the level of Anna's magic? Tsuchimikado has fists comparable to the magic of the strongest magicians? That's completely unrealistic. Heck, with how many magicians probably have spells that can one shot Touma (Oriana has one and fairly sure I could find a lot more if I tried)
Heck, freaking Sherry could kill him.


If you have proven anything here, it's that for one reason or another Touma surviving shit should generally not be used for scaling purposes. It could be outside circumstances, it could be him having immense skill, it could be outliers or just that not all spells of magicians are close in strength to each other. Take whichever excuse you like, but scaling anyone that can harm Touma to people whose attacks he once survived won't work.

Gah, it is like talking to a brick wall with you. I am not trying to do whatever the heck you are thinking; I am just arguing that since Touma has survived hits from magicians that are leaps and bounds above the 7-C magicians, it wouldn't be too out-there to assume that even their weakest attack is, at the very least, comparable to their magic as a massive low-ball. Well, in regards to Anna, Ales, Mathers and Othinus.

In regards to Rensa; we didn't have any mention or implication that Beetle lowered the strength of the attack, so I'm not seeing how that is out other than you trying to make a head-canon arguement for something that never happened.

Regarding Sherry; well, that is an early-novel issue and a weight issue. And like bullets, falls and explosions... a crap-ton of heavy falling rock are usually seen as fatal in fiction, so don't really see how that is a point against anything. Also, wasn't Sherry's Golem a problem for Telesma-infused Knights during OT17-18? Which were stated to be superior to Agnese's forces and Amasuka in terms of physical might, or smth like that.

In regards to the Avatar; eh. It didn't cause whatever remained of Touma's arm to turn into red mist, but ye, you're right, I suppose.

Yeah, seeing how the novel makes it clear how immensely lethal the attacks are and how Touma skills through them I have to disagree.

You know the drill; let's move on.

Often those are super bullets.
That aside, verses being inconsistent with them, doesn't mean you can delete them from the outlier statistic. Especially since Touma is not intended to be superhuman, unlike other verse's characters with this problem.

Explosions are pretty much the same attacks as he was attacked with in some of your examples. Heck, Anna's attack was compared to a shotgun and Mathers attacks were essentially like bullets.
You can't discount them on one end and use them on the other.

It also doesn't mean you can't ignore every other feat and stick your head into the ground because of bullets either, DT.

True, true, I suppose. But with Mathers and Anna, this is clearly just Kamachi desribing their attacks in a certain matter then them being actually comparable to shotguns/bullets... and there is also the issue that these parts are actually officially translated and moreso fan-translated stuff; so author-intent can be lost, especially with jap-stuff like this.

You can not strangle a character a billion times stronger than you regardless of how distracted they are.
To that comes that the author contextualizes it in the afterword by explicitly saying that Touma isn't easily dealing with that kind of opponent via brute force.

You can with the power of PIS, though.
A dying Othinus was being held prisoner and was about to die right in front of him unless Touma SI the president to stop her death; that can be what Kamachi mean by saying Touma can't easily deal with 'em with brute force... but again; prime PIS for people that showed up once and never again.

Like, TL;DR you bring up Touma questionably handling random attacks and stray shots from

• Three 7-C opponents
• A 7-B to 6-C opponent
• An at least 6-C which is regarded the strongest magician in history
• A at least 5-B opponent that is a greater magician than the former.
• A Tier 1 opponent
• Another supposedly 5-B opponent

(ignoring the problems I pointed out)
and you want us to take that as evidence that Touma's durability is consistent and he should be 7-C?

At the same time:

1. Touma can't beat regular soldiers without tricks and was on one occasion chocked out by one.
2. Is clearly stated to die from high falls on several occasions.
3. He can be harmed by lots of characters with no real physical feats and would scale to dozens characters with Street to Wall level feats at best. Characters which logically operate on a human level, I might add. Like "I can't just blow a hole in the wall" levels of strength.
4. Dies from hitting the asphalt at 180 km/h.
5. Dies from any kind of modern weaponry scoring a direct hit.
6. Dies from literally just the weight of a 9-B Golem collapsing on him.
7. Can be instant killed by one of the 7-C people whose magic you want to scale him to.
8. Can be easily impaled by the flame sword of the guy who is the source of one of the other 7-C magician even scaling to that.
9. All of the above are vastly below all the non-7-C people in your list, to the point that they would oneshot them. (And the 9-B golem is vastly below even the 7-C ones)
10. Even the side effects of the attacks of some 6-C opponent are explicitly lethal on a proper hit.
11. One of the attacks of the 5-B opponents was supposed to kill him. Even the shards scattered of it blowing apart a glass case apparently would have killed him.
12. Saints like Kanzaki can oneshot him and are vastly below several of the people on that list.

Like, as I said earlier those feats you brought up are generally pretty damn questionable to be any proper evidence in powerscaling. But if you wish to consider them at all, then they clearly are immensely inconsistent and all over the place.
I could probably search through of Touma's fights and would find some statement of an attack that can kill or heavily injure them in most of them.
Feats of Touma occasionally surviving a random shot from an opponent that should be easily be strong enough to oneshot him should not be taken as evidence for super high durability with those many logical problems tied to it.
It simply makes no sense in the overall context of the verse.

So yeah, let's not use Touma surviving random hits from people of vastly different power that should all be able to oneshot him (some explicitely, some due to scaling above people that can) as evidence, but instead keep it to people with which he can have fist fights of tanking and receiving hits.
I can compromise on giving him some rating, like, "can much survive higher attacks via skill" or something like that. But no durability that scales to anyone that can hit him... as that's literally anyone with some basic fight style. (Wasn't there even some statement that anyone with some martial arts training can defeat him?)

Let's just get to the point, DT.

A lot of the numbered points of yours can be countered by simply invoking hte power of PIS and fixing several issue by just cutting down the number of people who can scale to him or the people who scale to the people who scale to Touma. Oriana's wind blades can simply have too much cutting power for Touma's durability but he can still handle being hit directly by one of her other spells; Stiyl's blades are literally 3000 C, so it would be a given that Touma would be impaled (and much worse) considering he doesn't have any heat resistence and Touma could still survive a fatal magical attack (by Index's own words) from Tatiyama. Sherry's Golem has some backing to scale to the 7-C due to it being a mild threat to some knights during OT17-18 while all the Amasuka could do against them was hide. The same side-effects that would've been "lethal" to Touma also affected Accelerator and threw him around... somehow. In regards to the 5-Bs, I can still make the case that even their weakest attacks are still comparable to the 7-Cs as a massive low-ball.

Also, maybe... you are probably a bit right that Touma's durability is inconsistent, but that doesn't mean some logic can't be found here. And I simply refuse to discard this evidence, DT, because you think it doesn't make sense. Also, in the regards "can survive much higher attacks via skill" is even proper formating for a profile, idk nor case as I totally against it.

In regards to the martial art's point... Isn't that mainly a skill issue more than anything else as Touma is just a unskilled brawler?

And gah... Fanta can't keep up with all of these words... She doesn't even remember how this shit got to this point.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Okay, y'know what... Let's try something entirely new because Fanta can't handle this crud anymore and wants this thread to go somewhere... so let the calc-bombing start.

• 9-A (37 Megajoules)
• 9-A (110 Megajoules)
• 9-A (220 Megajoules)
• 9-A+ (718 Megajoules)

The first is Tatemiya busting-down a wall. Second is Thor throwing that overpass at Silvia. Third is Touma getting hit by the explosion in his first fight with Accelerator. Even if we disregard 7-C shit with Tatemiya, we can at least reasonably argue that his orb is probably comparable to his casual wall-busting feat. With Thor, Touma repeatably got hit by him while he was wearing his belt and wouldn't have any way to negate his strength unless he touched it. Explosion is explosion, nuff said. Inverse-square law is also a thing.

There's also Junko's near baseline 8-C rating and Enhanced!Arei matching a weakened Junko to consider. Junko 8-C feat happened while she was already exhausted from fighting Iruka for some time and Arei only came to fight her after Iruka was defeated; Junko shouldn't be so weak that she just dropped down to 9-B levels, which she already suprassed while she was younger, thus, wouldn't it be more reasonable to downscale the weakened!Junko and enhanced!Arei to baseline 9-A+? Also, Junko has this quote of being able to "survive a blow from a dark arm more brutal than the heavy machinery used to demolish buildings", so there's that too.

There are also the Class 6 Elements. They are also 8-C due to them being able to harm Misaka's AAA. I think.

“No matter how big you make it, did you really think you could win by repeating yourself?”

That was all.

He did not even snap his fingers.

Several explosions of noise sounded as if the air had burst around Kamijou. By the time he realized it was the sound of the surrounding girls kicking off the ground, the fierce and unilateral attack had begun.

Misaka Mikoto had used altitude and distance to fire down on the enemy from the safety of the sky like a bomber or a gunship, but the girls of the Kamisato Faction were the exact opposite.

They were more like attack fighters approaching the enemy aircraft. No, they may have been more like missiles tearing through the sky after being released from the fighter’s main wings. They had overwhelming speed and mobility. One was a bikini girl in a pirate hat. One was a girl in a suit of armor who wielded several swords, spears, and axes. One was a mass murderer in a white school swimsuit and double raincoats. They kicked off the ground, jumped over guardrails, and even used building walls and wind turbine pillars for footing as they charged toward the plesiosaur-like monster with sharp curveball-like movements.

Of course, the enemy fought back.

Its claws and beak gave a roar as it scattered flames as sticky as heavy oil.

But none of it hit. Instead of keeping their distance or flying into the sky, the girls moved as close to the monster as they could, prevented it from moving, and cut off the carnivorous inchworm’s view to create blind spots. The girls sometimes slipped between its legs, circled behind it, ran up on top of it, and passed blade after blade through it.

To a hundred meter Element, a blade wielded by a human was nothing more than a toothpick.

But definite cracks formed. And they spread and grew.

By some twist of physics, the giant form fell apart even though they used no poison, electric currents, or bloodsucking. They used brute strength to defeat a monster over fifty times their size. It seemed to entirely ignore the rules of nature.

As the translucent remains audibly crumbled and the background shimmered from the remaining flames, only the many girls remained standing.

Kamisato Kakeru…or rather, the girls on either side of him shot forward like artillery shells.

Salome, the mass murderer in a white swimsuit and double raincoats, and the pirate girl, who wore a pirate hat and a bikini, were both monsters who had torn through the Class 6 Elements as a close-quarters combat pair.

And the fact that the individual members of the Kamisato faction could harm them and bring them down. An unenhanced!Salome could do so, if we need an actually important person. There's also that pirate time magic-using girl, but she isn't important. I think. At the very least, since the Class 6 Elements are 8-C would it be a sterech to suggest that Kamisato faction members, or just Unehanced!Salome, can be downscaled to 9-A+?

... Oh. There is also this.

• 9-A (381 Megajoules)
• 9-A (912 Megajoules)

... Basically, they are 9-A feats that the Gunha that fought Junko and that guy copying Junko's power. Aren't for Gunha himself but moreso just supporting evidence for Junko being 8-C. Tis all.

Okay, getting to the main point, though... Pair everything with Vento's 9-A feat; would it be reasonable to scale everyone to 9-A instead of 9-B?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Okay, okay, I am back again. I wish to bring up another topic. Magic-Side Magic Scaling. Not the topic we've all been talking about exhaustingly for goodness how long now, but... Rather which Magician's magic should scale to 7-C. Whatever implication that comes up... let's ignore it for now in favor of focusing squarely on the magic people. Please.

Okay, getting to the point...

---

First person of interest... Aureolus Izzard. I talked about him before, but I feel like it would be good to retrace on some old ground to get my groove. Let's talk about my points.

• We've no idea on what magic Izzard used before he acquired Ars Magna; based on the few pieces of dialogue Stiyl gave regarding his magic, it seems he was primarily focused on researching and craft... magical items, if I recall correctly. Either way, it seems he was a non-combative sort before he acquired his bullcrud.
• Izzard (Fake) used magic that transmuted things upon impact with his weapon of choice, a golden chain with a dart attached to it. From my own memory, he never used it against Stiyl's magic, so no scaling from this angle.
• When Izzard rewrote reality so that the Gregorian Chant that destroyed Misawa Cram School, he was capable of reproducing it and rained it down on the knights that did the chant on the first place. Would this mean Izzard is capable reproducing the "ultimate weapon of the Chruch" with his bullcrud or when Izzard reversed reality did he just redirected the chant back at the knights?
• We seen various knights killed throughout the Cram School and even one killed by Izzard, I think. But since we know Izzard can casually dura-neg people to death, this could mean that he disregarded their durability - normal or magical.
• All of the attacks that Izzard used that weren't dura-neg in nature was against Touma... Who is y'know.

Taking it all to consideration... Would it be reasonable to give Aureolus Izzard a magic rating of "7-C, likely far higher with Ars Magna" or disregard it entirely? I prefer the former after some thinking. Ars Magna is theoretically only limited by his imagination, aside, the chant is still described as "the Roman Catholic Church's ultimate weapon"; Oriana is essentially just an underling in the church, so he should scale vastly above her... Also, let's ignore the GRS scaling since it is likely that they weren't even a concept in Kamachi's mind at that point, but we can acknowledge it somewhat with a "far higher" rating.

The quote, btw.

“We don’t wish to cause unnecessary damage. We’ll have the Gregorian Sacred Song Corp use the Gregorian Chant to carry out a Holy Incantation Bombardment. This is a means we decided after much deliberation in order to keep collateral damage to a minimum.”

The knight’s words were surprising. The Gregorian Chant was the spell that the Misawa Cram School students had used. According to Stiyl, the spell was of Roman Catholic origin. It was intended to be the ultimate weapon of the Roman Catholic Church. By utilizing 3333 monks gathered outside of a cathedral and having them chant the long spell, it intensified the power of the spell like sunlight into a magnifying glass.

---

Okay... Following them, well... Let's talk about some more "minor characters", for a bit. The Knights of England. We don't know much if anything else about 'em, but... Well, we know that they considered themselves capable of killing off the Amasuka and Kanzaki felt there was enough need for her to deal with 'em. Would this mean that, in their base states, that they should be capable of scaling to Amasuka via a likely rating? I think so. Seems fairly simple.

The quote, btw

The Knights did not want to be restricted by a tool.

So, the Knights would only listen to orders from their leader or the Queen. As for orders issued by the leader of the Anglican Church, the Knights were normally apathetic about them, and sometimes even disobeyed them.

The Knights had their own ideas regarding the order from the Archbishop, which had been to assist the recovery of The Book of the Law and Orsola Aquinas.

They just needed to kill off all the Amakusa.

The Knights had no reason to follow the orders of someone they did not recognize--the Archbishop--and sacrifice their lives for her. They also did not care about the relationship between the Anglican Church, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Amakusa Church.

Even if the Amakusa were to disappear from this world, there would not be any loss in terms of their country's welfare.

With the abilities the Knights possessed, killing off the Amakusa would be too easy. The techniques of the Knights, inherited from the crusaders who had attacked the Middle East in the tenth century, had buried who-knows-how-many believers of other religions since ancient times. Their power was great enough to even wipe an island off the map.

Destroying a weak sect in the far East, the Amakusa, would not even take a day.

Even if the Amakusa had a hostage like Orsola, they could not care less.

The Anglican Church was not even interested in The Book of the Law, since its contents had been ingrained in Index’s brain. Whether Orsola lived or died, the outcome would not affect Britain. The Roman Catholic Church may try to put pressure on Britain, but was it not the Archbishop’s job to pacify the Roman Catholic Church?

As for their Telesma-enchantment selves, well.. Honestly, I would just think that they just scale to the Amakusa but more "fully" as they were stated to be fighting 'em in a defensive battle... and that's about it. I do vaguely recall that they might've gotten more "offscreen" but who knows... they aren't too important.

Quote here, btw

It seemed a powerful enemy named Knight Leader was in Folkestone protecting Second Princess Carissa. He had defeated a Saint like Kanzaki Kaori and his whereabouts were currently unknown.

They wanted to avoid a pursuit after the wounded Kanzaki and an important person like the third princess was there too, so the Amakusas had no choice but to choose an inevitable defensive battle. It seemed they were currently hiding to escape the knights’ search and then find an opening to get the rescue seaplane moving.

---

Next up is Sherry Cromwell... Or rather her Golem, Ellis. It managed to threat a bunch of Knights; who, at this point, should've some comparable to the Amakusas... to some degree. Yeah, that's about it. I think a Likely 7-C Rating might be good here, but it is up to you guys.

Quote here, btw

Kamijou Touma and Oriana Thomson saw something in front of the large stone bridge.

It was a giant made of stone over 4 meters tall. No, it was actually made of a collection of concrete and asphalt thrown together seemingly at random.

Kamijou recognized the golem made from various objects and materials as well as the gothic lolita magician controlling it.

“The golem Ellis…!? Sherry’s doing this!!”

A fierce roar rose as if in response to Kamijou’s voice.

The roar did not come from Ellis. Ellis did not have the ability to emit a voice.

The roar was being made by the lion-like magician controlling the golem.

“Gooooaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!”

Sherry seemed to have lost herself in rage and Ellis attacked.

The giant unhesitatingly charged towards the knights panicking at that end of the bridge. The truck they were on exploded after the first strike and the knights were blown in all directions amidst orange flames. But that wasn’t enough to defeat those veteran knights.

“…”

Ellis raised one of its giant legs above one of the knights who was lying on the asphalt.

Ignoring the fact that the knight was attempting to defend himself using a mace, the golem forcefully dropped its leg down as if trying to pound a stake into the ground.

The tremendous shock almost knocked Kamijou and Oriana from their feet despite their distance from the scene.

The surrounding knights attacked with swords and spears in an attempt to save their comrade, but Ellis stomped on the collapsed knight a few more times despite being pierced by a multitude of blades.

Sherry’s roar of rage resounded further.

(That’s right! She-…!!)

Kamijou Touma recalled the meaning behind Sherry Cromwell’s magic name.

About 20 years prior, a friend of hers named Ellis had been killed. The reason had been a political one, but it had been a group of knights that had directly carried out the killing.

A long time had passed and her wounds had healed to a certain extent, but now the knights had appeared before her again. And once again, they were acting tyrannically for political reasons.

After the first time, she had just barely managed to forgive them, so could she forgive them now that they had done it a second time?

The answer to that question was Sherry’s current state.

---

I'll continue with this, a bit later. I got to find a few more quotes... Also, also, i'mma a lazybutt. xD. Also, for now, at the very least, can we focus on the Magicians and their Magic ratings? Would be much simpler than the cluster-frick I made earlier.

 

[XDragnoir]

Just taking a bunch of lethal hits to other parts would not let you keep fighting. That's just not how it would realistically work, it's a kind of bullshit superhuman skill or the author just not caring much.

Idk what you're talking about, do you see people tanking attacks with their heads instead of their arms often? That's absolutely a way to keep fighting more, blocking something like your eyes, throat or other delicate part of your body with a more resistant one like your arms isn't superhuman skill, anyone can literally do that on instinct, the fact Touma can block things that could kill him if they hit his head, for example, isn't in any way shape or form a skill feat.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Let's continue a bit.

---

Regarding Lessar... Ye. She's rightfully going to be 7-C.

Here are the important quotes for her tiering, btw. Just to make sure that we all know that they actually exist.

#1

A voice came directly into Lessar’s head.

“Getting something to eat is fine, but don’t forget that you’re a half, too. We can’t have you screwing up now.”

“I won’t, I won’t. But being the Forward sure would be nice. Oh, Bayloupe. Should we really be using communications magic in London? This is the stronghold of the 0th Parish, after all”

“It’s actually because we’re right under Necessarius’s nose that we don’t have to worry about that. Uuh…I don’t want to rely on someone like you…”

“You’re just mad because you’re hungry, aren’t you? Look, I’ll add in the olfactory information. Isn’t that smell of grease so wonderful?”

“(…Agh, and she of all people is the most powerful one in New Light in actual battle ability. Hoo, but I really do want to eat something now. Maybe some fried fish…)”

“Hee hee. Your thoughts are coming through loud and cle-..bgyah!?”

#2

“Then I have no choice,” said Lessar admitting her colleague was right. “Bayloupe.”

“What?”

“Let’s have a real fight once this is over. You can use your Gjallarhorn or whatever else you want.”
(...)
“But Bayloupe is really overdoing this. And I could probably manage in a fight against her as long as she doesn’t use that Gjallarhorn. It may have been the right decision not to have her provide covering fire against the rioters.”

Also, I found this scene that might be useful in scaling Lessar to Oriana as a... supporting scaling chain, I guess. Not really needed, but... this is literally one of the few "fight scenes" that Lessar actually has so might as well lay everything on the table.

The girl swung the spear with the mass of flames down like it was a hammer and met Kamijou’s gaze as he had fallen to the ground.

She smiled.

Kamijou immediately held up his right hand to cover himself, but she altered the trajectory diagonally a bit to slip past it.

“You’re kidding, right…!?”

Kamijou’s body froze up and he used just his eyes to follow the flame-covered spear the girl with the miniskirt and tail was swinging down.

A shock then knocked the girl to the side.

Her body doubled over from the impact caused by Oriana’s magic.

Her small body flew a few meters. She was still holding the spear, but the giant mass of flames slipped away like a carrot flying from a fork when it was swung around. The mass of flames flew off at an odd angle and exploded sending orange light around the area.

Even then, the girl did not collapse.

The bottom of her shoes scraped along the ground as she killed her momentum and she used the rectangular case in her other hand to stop Oriana’s magic.

Smoke rose from the surface of the case and the light of the girl’s eyes shined from behind the shield.

But then…

“Ahhhhhhh!? I used the most important thing as a shield without thinking!!”

... Yeah, that's it. Lessar faced off against a no-named Magician in Railgun SS2, but... Y'know that is relatively unimportant for obvious reasons, I do think she might've showed off a minor ability or two that she doesn't have in her profile, atm, though. But that is about it...

Other than Bayloupe, who casually defeated Itsuwa, every other member of New Light has not shown a single combat "scene" or "feat" by themselves... Which actually makes me wonder where Lancis and Floris' 9-B ratings for magic even come from. Might it be better to just rate as both of those two's ratings, both magical and physical, as Unknown in all categories based on what I've stated or something else?

I would suggest deleting them, but... I do think New Light actually qualifies for a Team Profile as they are one of the very few groups in Toaru that work together as an actual group on-screen, so I suggest holding off on that.

... Also, I am pointing this out to possibly help scale the Knight of England since one of 'em sniped the frick out of Lessar.

---

... Off-topic; but does anybody know where the 9-B rating comes from for magic users like Biagio Busoni, Yamisaka Ouma, Fleiss, Leep and... Ye, basically all of the unimportant magic-side characters. I know for a fact there isn't a calc here, but I am not sure if any of 'em have a statement that they all scale to and/or if somebody just wrote 'em all down as 9-B cuz why not.

Honestly, I kinda am wondering if we should delete some of 'em since none of the characters I listed have never "encountered" a person important to the magic side scaling chain, i.e, Stiyl, Amasuka and Oriana, only faced Touma or was just a background character most of the time.

Well, besides Biagio considering the whole encounter with Agnese' forces and the Amasuka, her and her nuns possibly implied to be a "threat" to Tatiyama, Itsuwa and the rest of the Amasuka and him being superior to Agnese... I think, I got check the story again. Like I am not sure if even just one of her nuns actually even harmed even just one Amasuka on-screen.

---

And that is it, for now.

 

[XDragnoir]

For both sides here, we should, for our own sake, stop bringing up new characters to this, we've barely solved most things regarding the low tiers, magic scaling should be dealt with later if not in another thread outside of cases like Biagio who may help here if Touma scales to his magic.

 

[DontTalkDT]

For both sides here, we should, for our own sake, stop bringing up new characters to this, we've barely solved most things regarding the low tiers, magic scaling should be dealt with later if not in another thread outside of cases like Biagio who may help here if Touma scales to his magic.

Yeah, I plan to address nothing else until the Touma thing is settled. I'm actually contemplating whether it's easiest to do it here, or if I should make a new thread to call staff in focussed on just that.

---

So yeah, I plan to get other staff involved regarding the Touma thing soon (not anything else yet), rather than dragging this on, as I obviously don't have the stamina to continue this big walls (hence the delays). Before I do, I have a few questions.

1. Anyone know why Stiyl scales to Oriana exactly? Without that laid out, the entire 7-C scaling doesn't work.
2. @FantaRin_The_First , can I take your 9-A post to assume you are dropping 7-C and are now arguing in favour of 9-A? Gotta know so that I can summarize what's relevant for the staff. The shorter I can make it, the more likely someone actually reads it and responds. Hence, if I don't need to address 7-C arguments, I won't.
3. Anything else to include before I write that summary?

What Biagio is concerned: Probably just estimated by rule of thumb. That said, 3m x 40 cm x 40cm cross thrown at 20 m/s (low end regular human throwing speed) gives me something in the Wall level range, so that seems fine.