The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Hulk has an in-canon extremely variable power level that usually makes him just a little bit more dangerous than whoever he is fighting at the moment.

Shouldn't that mean that Wolverine's power is variable too? I also did mention above about Thor's hammer

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Shouldn't that mean that Wolverine's power is variable too?

No. Unless it is explicitly mentioned that he has a canon mechanic that makes his power level variable

I also did mention above about Thor's hammer

• Thor infamously holds back his immense Asgardian strength against most mortal opponents in fear of killing them, due to his benevolent nature. This means that not every character (or object) that would seem to scale their statistics to Thor and vice versa would always do so, the context of the showings and the historical consistency of the involved characters' statistics need to be evaluated. In practice for Marvel, this means something a bit more counterintuitive; Thor has hundreds of showings across his career, contending at least somewhat evenly against foes whom he should easily one-shot and speed blitz. Although this makes some sense given to his proven approach for combat, it also includes instances where Thor's life was at stake or people needed to be saved. However, as illogical as this may sound, a much greater number of inconsistencies would arrive with all of the involved characters scaling to Thor at his peak despite their much more abundant evidence to not remotely be of this level. Some attention needs to be given to the in-universe reasons regarding why weaker foes would gain an upper hand against or content with Thor, even if they come off as illogical excuses, as they're repeatedly used and normalized between different writers. As Thor consistently holds back when facing non-divine opponents, or when on Earth, please avoid scaling other characters to his tiering unless they meet the criteria and it is consistent for the characters in question. In short, Thor has a reason to hold back that ideally makes his showings against weaker characters more logical. However, all of these occasions do not always make perfect sense, and care needs to be put to not abuse such cases as more meaningful than what they are in order for consistency and accuracy to be maintained.
  • Explicitly stated that he holds back his might so that people don't die from his hits.
  • Another explicit statement by Captain America (Note: The "third" is likely not literal and can just be a stand-in for any fraction.)
  • Stated that he had previously held back his full strength against a character.
  • Explicitly stated that he wouldn't kill a character even though he knows that he likely wouldn't win otherwise.
  • Stated that he has held back against mortal opponents in fear that his strikes may kill them.
  • Thor stated that he had forgotten the true strength of Mjolnir many times, and as such it can be deciphered that he usually uses it at a far lower output.
  • Note that, much like his strength and durability, Thor can limit his speed if he wants to, which should be considered before scaling other characters to him. This, of course, includes the speed of his hammer being thrown.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Wolverine did keep up with Thanos

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Wolverine did keep up with Thanos

Outlier inconsistency. Tons of street-tier characters also kept up with Wolverine. Upgrading Wolverine to MFTL+ doesn't affect just him

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I'm not sure how good Storm's profile is, it says that she can keep up with Wolverine and dodge Mjolnir being thrown by Thor which should actually make her MFTL+! Why is Wolverine Hypersonic when he can fight the Hulk?!
This is also not mentioning that her Lightning Bolts aren't given a speed either!

Wolverine wouldnt work but Storm having MHS+ attack speed should be a given, im sure it wouldnt be hard to find evidence of Storm having MHS+ reaction speed too

 

[Tomfer]

Upgrading Wolverine to MFTL+ doesn't affect just him

Tbh, I feel like marvel's street gang should be at least High Hypersonic

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

So, uh, I want to point out this that IIRC was said to be an extreme PIS case, but now with the accepted changes in the tiers what do you guys think about The Void being able to enter the White Hot Room?

Is not this only smurf Interdimensional Travel and not truely ap?

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Is not this only smurf Interdimensional Travel and not truely ap?

Them Sentry should have Outerversal range listed in his profile.

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

In Excalibur Visionaries: Alan Davis TPB #1 Part #2, the collapse of the entire multiverse can be nullified and stopped by the Phoenix.

Oddly, this one is used in Universal Phoenix’s key for Low 1-A, it should be removed yeah? Also do y’all think this is an outlier for Universal Phoenix?

 

[Antvasima]

Oddly, this one is used in Universal Phoenix’s key for Low 1-A, it should be removed yeah? Also do y’all think this is an outlier for Universal Phoenix?

The way I vaguely recall those events, I think that Necron set up a chain reaction to collapse the Marvel multiverse, and was blackmailing Excalibur to give him access to the Phoenix Force in order to put a stop to it, but I may remember wrong.

 

[Gasper]

Multiverse can sometimes just refer to infinite collection of universes.

 

[AcidSilver]

No. Unless it is explicitly mentioned that he has a canon mechanic that makes his power level variable

Dunno if you wanna add these scans to that list of examples but we see Thor go from getting his ass kicked by these constructs to instantly killing them once he learns that they're not alive and are just soulless automotons. These are from the Death of Doctor Strange: Avengers one shot.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Dunno if you wanna add these scans to that list of examples but we see Thor go from getting his ass kicked by these constructs to instantly killing them once he learns that they're not alive and are just soulless automotons. These are from the Death of Doctor Strange: Avengers one shot.

I remember that Eficiente listed this as part of the updates to Thor's section about him holding back, but they never got applied for whatever reason

And in the Explanations the following should be added with a few updates:

• (replacing the first image)Explicitly stated that he holds back his might so that people don't die from his hits<ref>The Avengers (1963)/vol 1 issue 149 - April 20, 1976</ref>.
• (in the second image. It should be moved as the last)<ref>What If? Civil War Vol 1 1 - Granted, What If?s stories aren't used for our profiles. Take this as supporting evidence.</ref>
• Thor states that he rarely strikes foes with the full power of Mjolnir, but he chose not to hold back in an occasion against Juggernaut<ref>Thor Vol 1/(1966) issue 429</ref>.
• Part of Odin's goals after sending a depowered Thor to Earth was to teach him humility, letting mortal champions (the Avengers) train him to "keep his strength in reign around those lesser in power". Other threats he faced like aliens and mortals of vast power (like the Absorbing Man) were likely referred to as being lesser in power<ref>Thor Annual Vol 1 11 - August 16, 1983</ref>.
• While being partially out-of-character due to external concerns, Thor eventually hit a robotic foe without holding back during their fight, stating that life along mortals has caused him to withhold his full strength at times, with this being an exception<ref>Thor (1998) issue 9</ref>.
• (replacing the image in the middle)Stated that he had previously held back his full strength against a character<ref>Thor Vol 2/(1998) issue 12</ref>.
• Using physical strength and his powers, Thor attacked a foe whose powers gave her an advantage in combat while himself still holding back, getting called out by her enemy<ref>Juggernaut: The Eighth Day (1999)</ref> regardless of the disadvantage this will inevitably lead to.
• While motivated due to loved ones having died and being in desperate times, Thor reached deep within himself for a strength never fully realized before (the comic being from September, 2004). This killed and fried a godly foe that was previously matching Thor (though it didn't annihilate his body, as Thor's stats in this profile may imply)<ref>Thor Vol 2/(1998) issue 82</ref>. This shows how even when Thor isn't holding back his power along mortals as he classically does, he can still reach higher levels of power by sheer effort, despite how intuitive it would be to say that a Thor "not holding back" should mean that he is already using the absolute peak of his capabilities.
• While troubled and holding back more than usually, Thor thought he had hit a foe with "the full force of Mjolnir" without knowing he was actually holding back, then he hit that enemy with more force but still making sure to not kill him<ref>Thor Vol 3 Annual issue 1</ref>.
• While hunting down an uncontrolled Wolverine, Thor was around his same speed and harmed his claws, until Thor angrily had enough after Wolverine pushed his patience to its very limits, with Thor one-shotting him while still making sure to have his friend unharmed<ref>Wolverine vs Thor (2009)</ref>. Thor's consistently shown to be stronger than this when holding back though.
• All-Father Thor could not initially deal with several Juggernauts and was harmed by them, but when he noticed they had no soul he decided to not have mercy on them, destroying them in one attack<ref>Death of Doctor Strange: Avengers Vol 1 1</ref>.
• Thor got beat up and was seemingly helpless by a group of trolls, their king & a human transformed into a minotaur, then Thor reasoned out load all their evil deeds, attributes, the strength of the minotaur and how he is no longer a human, thus concluding that it means that he shouldn't hold back<ref>Thor: God of Thunder Vol 1 issue 23</ref>.
• Odin told Bruce Banner that Thor often holds back displaying the sheer scope of Mjolnir's power, and Odin wasn't sure if Bruce would believe him. Beta Ray Bill stated that Hulk never fought the real Thor, that in the past when they fought it was against the Avenger Thor, a humble and noble Thor, and that the reason why he was cast down on Earth was to learn humility, honor & to wild his power with mercy<ref>Hulk Vol 5/(2021) issue 8</ref>.

Given on this examples, we can infer that Thor limits his own power when any of this base reasons are met:

• Thor's on Earth.
• Thor is dealing with human affairs and threats.
• Thor is battling mortals or is unaware of the power of his foes being on par with his own (when not holding back).
• Thor is making sure to not kill his enemies, especially if he cares for them.
• Thor is seeking the thrill of combat.
• Thor is accustomed to any of the former factors.

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

@Gasper @Antvasima I just figured that the statement in question of Feron possessing a portion of the Phoenix Force is High 1-B because it’s referring to “all the planes of reality” just like how Seth and Odins fight rippled through every plane of reality.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Gasper @Antvasima I just figured that the statement in question of Feron possessing a portion of the Phoenix Force is High 1-B because it’s referring to “all the planes of reality” just like how Seth and Odins fight rippled through every plane of reality.

The "planes of reality" in question are referring to the different Earths of the multiverse, in the context of the Phoenix scan, so the feat is indeed Low 1-A.

 

[Excellence616]

Part 3?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Part 3?

I already have the thing mostly written up, so, I'll post it when I have all the to-be-updated profiles finished.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

what is part 3 gonna be about

 

[Excellence616]

what is part 3 gonna be about

Hell Lords maybe

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

I already have the thing mostly written up, so, I'll post it when I have all the to-be-updated profiles finished.

What do you think of my post btw?

 

[Eseseso]

what is part 3 gonna be about

Hell Lords maybe

Hell Lords, other Gods, Old King Thor (probably), so on.

Oh, and Nightmare.

 

[Eseseso]

The Darkhold's power is said to permeate through all realities: Doctor Strange Volume 2 #59

The "planes of reality" in question are referring to the different Earths of the multiverse, in the context of the Phoenix scan, so the feat is indeed Low 1-A.

@Ultima_Reality, is "all realities" here 2-A or is it Low 1-A?

 

[Eseseso]

Btw, I know I already said this, but Doctor Strange needs some major revisions.

Currently, he only goes up to Low 1-A with max prep/absorption. However, Strange has fought against and shielded against Tier 1 beings on a pretty consistent basis, mainly Nightmare, Dormammu, Shuma-Gorath, and Zom (who is above Eternity).

He should be something like "5-B on Earth (Current feats, plus being >= Doctor Doom with Magic), Low 1-A outside of Earth"

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

This is also not mentioning that her Lightning Bolts aren't given a speed either!

Wolverine wouldnt work but Storm having MHS+ attack speed should be a given, im sure it wouldnt be hard to find evidence of Storm having MHS+ reaction speed too

Tbh, I feel like marvel's street gang should be at least High Hypersonic

boop

 

[Tomfer]

boop

Hm? What you need from me exactly?

 

[Eseseso]

Since @IdiosyncraticLawyer and @Maverick_Zero_X have Herald stuff that they claim is 2-C, should we just make a separate CRT for 2-C Herald stuff rather than try and shove it into Part 3 of Ultima's revisions?

 

[Gasper]

How many universes would Heralds scale to?

I remember umar (who is not a Herald but still) shaking two universes or something like that and hulk having the power of two universes, so that's baseline 2-C, does anyone have anything higher than that?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

That should definitely be its own CRT

 

[Eseseso]

Since @IdiosyncraticLawyer and @Maverick_Zero_X have Herald stuff that they claim is 2-C, should we just make a separate CRT for 2-C Herald stuff rather than try and shove it into Part 3 of Ultima's revisions?

@IdiosyncraticLawyer Would you mind making the CRT since you are the one who assembled all those Herald feats?

If not, then is anyone else able to?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@IdiosyncraticLawyer Would you mind making the CRT since you are the one who assembled all those Herald feats?

If not, then is anyone else able to?

Not now, as I'm busy. Bringing back 2-C heralds isn't the most urgent thing and can wait, though I do have an assortment of feats.

 

[Excellence616]

Since @IdiosyncraticLawyer and @Maverick_Zero_X have Herald stuff that they claim is 2-C, should we just make a separate CRT for 2-C Herald stuff rather than try and shove it into Part 3 of Ultima's revisions?

Creating a different CRT is better.

 

[Excellence616]

though I do have an assortment of feats

Could you post some?

 

[Eseseso]

Not now, as I'm busy. Bringing back 2-C heralds isn't the most urgent thing and can wait, though I do have an assortment of feats.

Could you post some?

Yes, if you could post them, we could just discuss them in a new CRT, separate of Ultima's revisions.

 

[Isaiah_ZaMangaka]

Not now, as I'm busy. Bringing back 2-C heralds isn't the most urgent thing and can wait, though I do have an assortment of feats.

Till then, Imma enjoy the organizational perfection of High 3-A, High 1-B, and High 1-A

 

[Eseseso]

Till then, Imma enjoy the organizational perfection of High 3-A, High 1-B, and High 1-A

I kinda miss 2-A/Low 1-C, now that was orderly.

Getting Doctor Doom to 2-A was the pinnacle of my work on this site.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Till then, Imma enjoy the organizational perfection of High 3-A, High 1-B, and High 1-A

Low 1-A and 1-A are still things.

 

[Eseseso]

Low 1-A and 1-A are still things.

Would you mind simply posting the 2-C Herald feats so that we can discuss them in a separate CRT?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Would you mind simply posting the 2-C Herald feats so that we can discuss them in a separate CRT?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-small-thor-update.158252/ isn't finished yet. We should wait.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Hm? What you need from me exactly?

I just want to draw attention to the speed scaling

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

How come Sunshine Joe Fixit's image is still on Hulk's page even though his key was removed?