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So you literally need the phrase "above cause and effect" to be type 5?
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Acausality Type 5 checklist
- Thread starter Theglassman12
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- acausality
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,412
- 11,003
The mention of change and decay does imply cause/effect, so I can probably see type 5 with that. Depends on if extra context establishes a more explicit causal system they exist outside of.
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Not sure if this qualifies for anything but here is something.
That's from WOD btw.
"All Spheres are, of course, interconnected, their properties cycling through a circle of connections that unite the principles while keeping each individual field a specialized unit of study and effect. In plain English, one thing leads to another, with all of them playing a part in the greater scheme of things.
This cycle creates things out of apparent nothingness – from the initial conception of an idea, to its form, to the perception of its form, to the decay of that form so that the idea, its materials, and its essen>ce can return to the first point of the cycle and begin all over again in some new state.
Each step of that cycle involves a series of Spheres. From original conception in the energy field of Prime, an effect gets focused through consciousness in the Mind and attains substance through the Spirit. Given form in Patterns of Forces, Life, or Matter, the substance interacts with other Patterns through Correspondence and Time. Finally, it breaks down through Entropy, its elements dispersed back to the Prime to start all over again. If there is a Tenth Sphere, it probably governs the entire process, like a circle that encloses this cycle, keeping it all whole and functioning.
EDIT: there is also this:
"We do not necessarily know everything about what we accept to be true. Therefore, when we accept it, we draw in unanticipated consequences. Etherites call this phenomenon the "Trojan Horse." Accepting one thing as true, we accept related things that might contradict our worldview. This is another reason why reduction is false: By believing that reality is only what we can measure, we deny the existence of change (for change occurs after the state that we
measure) and ignores the limits of our perception. Because we cannot know the whole of a given phenomenon, all phenomena have potentially limitless implications."
That's from WOD btw.
"All Spheres are, of course, interconnected, their properties cycling through a circle of connections that unite the principles while keeping each individual field a specialized unit of study and effect. In plain English, one thing leads to another, with all of them playing a part in the greater scheme of things.
This cycle creates things out of apparent nothingness – from the initial conception of an idea, to its form, to the perception of its form, to the decay of that form so that the idea, its materials, and its essen>ce can return to the first point of the cycle and begin all over again in some new state.
Each step of that cycle involves a series of Spheres. From original conception in the energy field of Prime, an effect gets focused through consciousness in the Mind and attains substance through the Spirit. Given form in Patterns of Forces, Life, or Matter, the substance interacts with other Patterns through Correspondence and Time. Finally, it breaks down through Entropy, its elements dispersed back to the Prime to start all over again. If there is a Tenth Sphere, it probably governs the entire process, like a circle that encloses this cycle, keeping it all whole and functioning.
EDIT: there is also this:
"We do not necessarily know everything about what we accept to be true. Therefore, when we accept it, we draw in unanticipated consequences. Etherites call this phenomenon the "Trojan Horse." Accepting one thing as true, we accept related things that might contradict our worldview. This is another reason why reduction is false: By believing that reality is only what we can measure, we deny the existence of change (for change occurs after the state that we
measure) and ignores the limits of our perception. Because we cannot know the whole of a given phenomenon, all phenomena have potentially limitless implications."
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Good luck getting them here.
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- #246
The deny existence of change part might help but it’s not elaborated on.
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Is it fine if i just give you the whole quote?
Parmenidean Metaphysics in the
Kitab al-Alacir
Troy, however, is doomed to fall due to the conundrum popularly dubbed "Aretus' first paradox." Aretus describes the world outside of Troy as symbolizing the cosmos and all the thoughts a human being can hold. In doing so, he draws upon arguments similar to those of the pre-Socratic philosopher Parmenides, who argued that it is impossible for anything to truly not exist. All conceivable things are true, because nothing can be objectively proven not to exist if it is precisely described.
"We do not know," says Aretus, "all that may exist. Noble Priam, you may describe jackal-headed men in Ethiopia, omitting fewer details than you might of the Myrmidon ships moored upon our shores. You have seen neither. I have described one; your scouts, the other. If the cosmos is unbounded, all things must reside therein. So it is with the mind."
Aretus points out that if we were to treat everything that exists as relevant to our experience, then we should surely go
mad. Therefore, we create a barrier between that which we accept as relevant, real phenomena and that which is inconsistent with our chosen reality. So, the Wall of Troy around our minds allows us to understand a small part of the cosmos, but in order to do so, we must deny the vast majority of what exists.
Scientists with a physics orientation will no doubt recognize similarities between Aretus' argument and some concepts in quantum mechanics. When we observe an object, all of its possible states of being—its "waveform" —collapse into a single state. Yet we cannot disprovethe nonexistence of other states; we can openly make a weak appeal to reduction — and as Ether Scientists know, reductionism is false. Aretus would argue that it is simply an unreasonably strong application of the Wall of Troy.
Kitab al-Alacir
Troy, however, is doomed to fall due to the conundrum popularly dubbed "Aretus' first paradox." Aretus describes the world outside of Troy as symbolizing the cosmos and all the thoughts a human being can hold. In doing so, he draws upon arguments similar to those of the pre-Socratic philosopher Parmenides, who argued that it is impossible for anything to truly not exist. All conceivable things are true, because nothing can be objectively proven not to exist if it is precisely described.
"We do not know," says Aretus, "all that may exist. Noble Priam, you may describe jackal-headed men in Ethiopia, omitting fewer details than you might of the Myrmidon ships moored upon our shores. You have seen neither. I have described one; your scouts, the other. If the cosmos is unbounded, all things must reside therein. So it is with the mind."
Aretus points out that if we were to treat everything that exists as relevant to our experience, then we should surely go
mad. Therefore, we create a barrier between that which we accept as relevant, real phenomena and that which is inconsistent with our chosen reality. So, the Wall of Troy around our minds allows us to understand a small part of the cosmos, but in order to do so, we must deny the vast majority of what exists.
Scientists with a physics orientation will no doubt recognize similarities between Aretus' argument and some concepts in quantum mechanics. When we observe an object, all of its possible states of being—its "waveform" —collapse into a single state. Yet we cannot disprovethe nonexistence of other states; we can openly make a weak appeal to reduction — and as Ether Scientists know, reductionism is false. Aretus would argue that it is simply an unreasonably strong application of the Wall of Troy.
Heraclitus and Reality in Flux
The Kitab al-Alacir avoids the problem of solipsism by revealing that phenomena which the mind denies do, in fact, breach the barrier of our denial. It is the nature of reality, however, to test itself against the Wall of Troy. All change occurs when the metaphysical opposite of an accepted concept breaches the barrier.
The Wall of Troy is rebuilt around it and the synthesis between the two is integrated into reality. Aretus uses arguments similar to Heraclitus's to say that all things are transformed by their opposites and that (in agreement with Parmenides) nothing can
ever be destroyed. For example, when water meets fire, steam rises, synthesizing the properties of both but destroying neither.
Obviously, this idea creates some problems when applied to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, but it is important to remember that all phenomena eventually dissolve into Ether, to arise again. Before introducing the Ether, he says that when change arises, we must either discard a previous law or rebuild the Wall of Troy to encompass more. Expanding the boundaries of the mind, the state or the cosmos requires action and virtue (arete).
The Kitab al-Alacir avoids the problem of solipsism by revealing that phenomena which the mind denies do, in fact, breach the barrier of our denial. It is the nature of reality, however, to test itself against the Wall of Troy. All change occurs when the metaphysical opposite of an accepted concept breaches the barrier.
The Wall of Troy is rebuilt around it and the synthesis between the two is integrated into reality. Aretus uses arguments similar to Heraclitus's to say that all things are transformed by their opposites and that (in agreement with Parmenides) nothing can
ever be destroyed. For example, when water meets fire, steam rises, synthesizing the properties of both but destroying neither.
Obviously, this idea creates some problems when applied to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, but it is important to remember that all phenomena eventually dissolve into Ether, to arise again. Before introducing the Ether, he says that when change arises, we must either discard a previous law or rebuild the Wall of Troy to encompass more. Expanding the boundaries of the mind, the state or the cosmos requires action and virtue (arete).
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While looking at some profiles, i noticed that Luminous Being and Ryougi Shiki have no type 5 justifications.
Also some SMT characters like YHVH and The Great reason doesnt have justification either.
Also some SMT characters like YHVH and The Great reason doesnt have justification either.
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@Gasper yeah quoting the full text hardly helped cause I can barely find anything there that talks about the unchangeable aspect.
@Milly_Rocking_Bandit @Paul_Frank @Mr._Bambu is there any explanations for SMT, Nasu or DnD having type 5 Acausality?
@Milly_Rocking_Bandit @Paul_Frank @Mr._Bambu is there any explanations for SMT, Nasu or DnD having type 5 Acausality?
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Yes, indeed there are.
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Can I see the scans for the reason? Cause the standard for type 5 has changed to where you need a correlation of them being above causality to them being unchangeable in the world.
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Just remove us for now, we fit the new condition, but it’s better we overhaul everything else with it, which is coming with the new justification.
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Well that has no justification as well or one that is sufficient enough.
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kk, adding them to the list. Also asked Ultima about the self reference engine characters and he said he alpha centauri can be removed, so adding him.
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Quite literally said just remove us.
Abu2411
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This doesn't really matter. We've got better justifications for Acausality Type 5 but we're going to wait for the overhaul thread. So in the time being they can be removed.
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Is This fine?
Akashachann
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I don't know if this has been discussed before, but has Oblivion's Aca 5 been approved?
Because existing before things doesn't mean being independent of them and being in a state that cannot be interacted with. So that's why I wanted to ask
Because existing before things doesn't mean being independent of them and being in a state that cannot be interacted with. So that's why I wanted to ask
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No he absolutely isn't.
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I have seen a **** ton of people agreeing with Oblivion being basically the top 2 of marvel so I suppose its just something subjective
But I really dont care about Marvel Tier 1 stuff
But I really dont care about Marvel Tier 1 stuff
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It's not something subjective, no.
Oblivion scales to the far shore while the Phoenix scales to the white hot room which is already above the beyond. Phoenix can also stomp the Beyonder who is above Oblivion.
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@Gasper already saw the scan, still not enough.
@Akashachann doesn’t seem like it, I’ll put him on the list for now.
@Akashachann doesn’t seem like it, I’ll put him on the list for now.
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Oh, might as well get this out of the way;
Transcendent Monks in JTTW are stated to have all causal relations abolished, they do not die nor are they born, and they have no growth nor any decrease.
Transcendent Monks in JTTW are stated to have all causal relations abolished, they do not die nor are they born, and they have no growth nor any decrease.
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Looks pretty straightforward to me.
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The justification in question btw:
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Is that the whole explanation? Sounds like type 4 at best given it doesn’t mention they exist outside of causality completely, just that they’re in a set of laws different than what we know of.
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Ok that helps a lot. That can qualify the ultimate gods for type 5.
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@DontTalkDT is there any scans to justify Ichiban’s type 5 Acausality?
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There is
He is voidless body – beyond causality and everything. I can get the quote (not sure if beyond causality, but I think it stated as "no causality/no cause and effect"
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Yes, it stated as beyond causality, when they created voidless body.
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Does he have any statements for being changless or unchangeable?
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Out of curiosity, why is “changeless” and “unchangeable” a requirement now?
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From the OP:
"Let's get the requirements out of the way: to qualify you need to have some statements that you're beyond causality to the point of being an unchangeable entity (essentially being unaffected by anything and everything that would affect the world in some way shape or form). Both of these are required for type 5 to be validated, as without these two, it can be taken as either a resistance to causality manipulation or type 4 Acausality or some other ability depending on the context. The same applies to the alleged acausal character being interactable by normal people, or more generally beings that have absolutely no precedent for being able to do that as that would be an anti-feat and would be one of the two mentioned prior."
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