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Transduality Should be Nonduality

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Zexer1 said:
Ohh I see! then a 4:1 ratio is already enough to pass this thread afaik, maybe ask Ant for the approval of applying this revision if we are clear on everything
Click to expand...
No, it is insufficient. This is a significant wide revision, and I highly doubt that Ant has seen DT's edited message. It's astonishing that he agreed, considering he was originally against it and sided with DT a year ago.

The problem with this revision is that it provides the exact same advantages as Transduality, but removes the aspect of superiority that DT has always opposed. Consequently, anyone without any context or elaboration would gain TD's benefits and immunities, which directly contradicts Ant's philosophical system and goes against the principles of VSBW itself.

So simply as Fuji here said
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
It's a pretty big revision concerning wiki policy, so I'll leave it up to Ant.
Click to expand...
Simply leave it to Ant.
 
Bump

Also, the claims of "anyone without context or elaboration would gain TD" is absurd. Even with nonduality, this ability would have to be heavily scrutinized just as all other instances of immunity on the wiki are. It's just fearmongering to claim otherwise.
 
Antvasima said:
So if we follow Qawsedf234's suggestions above, we would rename our current Transduality page to Nonduality, but keep a redirect link from the Transduality links and search terms, and turn all of the current contents of our Transduality page into a large section of our new Nonduality page, which would also include a newly written section that describes nonduality without transcendental superiority?

If this is correct, somebody will need to write a draft for a new Nonduality section of the page in question.

Thank you very much for helping out btw. 🙏
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So about this...
 
Antvasima said:
So about this...
Click to expand...

Nonduality

Nonduality is the state of being wherein an entity exists independently of, or lack, various dual systems, ranging from very specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to being independent of duality as a whole on their respective plane of existence

But to note that, an entity who is nondual of a specific, or every duality, on their plane of existence is still included in a greater system of dualities on a higher plane of existence, thereby, they are still bound by the concept of duality.

Nonduality Types

Type 1 (Specific Nonduality): Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding one specific dual system on their plane of existence and are immune to the effects caused within it
• Examples

Type 2 (General Nonduality): Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within the scope of their entire plane of existence and immune to the effects caused within it. Furthermore, characters with this type can be accurately described as being in either both or neither state of the dualities.
• Examples

Type 3 (Plurality): Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within the scope of their entire plane of existence and immune to the effects caused within it. Furthermore, these characters exist beyond the classical states of contradiction-allowing logic on some level of existence. That is to say, for any statement A about them they are in a state that can't be described as A is true, A is false, A is simultaneously true and false or A is neither true nor false. And so they must obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states, and not be in any of the 4 combinations of true and false mentioned earlier.
• Examples
Click to expand...

Is this draft acceptable for Nonduality section? (It's based on Qawsedf's suggestion)
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Because that's our current justification for TD.
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What?

So if a character exists in a state absent of true, false, true and false, and neither true nor false, they wouldn't have nonduality because they aren't "transcendent"? This wraps back to one of the first problems I listed, where one of the real life ideas behind the ability wouldn't even qualify.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
So if a character exists in a state absent of true, false, true and false, and neither true nor false, they wouldn't have nonduality because they aren't "transcendent"?
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I'm saying I don't see a reason to have Type 3 be a thing than just make it a generalized TD thing.

Who would qualify for it without also qualifying for TD?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I'm saying I don't see a reason to have Type 3 be a thing than just make it a generalized TD thing.

Who would qualify for it without also qualifying for TD?
Click to expand...
So you're essentially saying that of the three Nonduality categories, Type 1 should be Specific Nonduality, Type 2 should be General Nonduality, and Type 3 should be Transduality?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I'm saying I don't see a reason to have Type 3 be a thing than just make it a generalized TD thing.

Who would qualify for it without also qualifying for TD?
Click to expand...
Warhammer characters, for one. Prior to their deletion, Maou Gakuin characters would've had type 3 nonduality. There are characters I am planning to upgrade to type 3. Also, there's just the real-life concept of Wuji, which already acts as the basis for plural nonduality (Oblivion has it for partly this exact reason).
 
That feels like a highly flawed approach even separate from the type 3 stuff, since a character with QS for only one duality would be lumped together with a character who transcends all dualities.
 
Well the only other choice I really see would be to just keep the current three versions as their own thing.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Sure, but what's stopping us from having 3 types for transduality AND nonduality?

If a character lacks, but doesn't transcend, the states of true, false, true and false, and neither true nor false, would that not work as type 3 nonduality?
Click to expand...
I agree with this. Nonduality should have something similar to BDE and NEP where Nature Type 1 is lacking duality without transcending it and Nature Type 2 is lacking duality and transcending it while Aspect Type 1 is Specific Nonduality, Aspect Type 2 is General Nonduality, and Aspect Type 3 is Plurality.
 
Zexer1 said:
Being outside of nonduality would give immunity to the duality (or dualities) in question but the character would still be part of a greater system of dualities on a higher dimensional plane of existence than his.

And being beyond (as to say, qualitatively superior or transcendent) the said dualities mean that they are beyond every system and thus exist beyond the whole concept of dualities; referring to transduality
Click to expand...
This is absurd, because even Transduality would be nuked by a higher dimensional concept or duality system.

Also I'm not sure why a simple "non-duality" has the same principles as Transduality.

It would be just as a space that existed before time or had no time would not be affected by time. In short, it seems a little silly to me. Since this field is inherently timeless and pre-timely, it will not be affected by temporal events, but will be affected by time now, after time has been created or "injected" into it later on.

To explain more clearly, for example, since a character lacks the concepts of death and life(a non-duality), it becomes independent of the effects of this duality system. However, if the concept of "death" or "life" is later added to the nature of that character or transferred/injected with another power, it will no longer be independent of the effects of this dual system.

just as a space existing before time and devoid of time is not first affected by time, but is then affected by time when a time is created in it. But when it comes to Transduality, the character's transcending the concept of duality and being "non-duality" makes it immune and superior to all the effects of duality, and it is also unaffected by the factors I have explained above.

Also here, I don't think non-duality would work like a BDE or NEP. Because these two hax are completely devoid of their nature and have never existed. You can't transfer concepts to a non-existent character, but when it comes to "non-duality", that's not how things go.

I have written so much, but I do not know how much it will be taken into account. :coffee: 🗿

And I guess it's not my place to say it, but the fact that DT doesn't have an answer while there is such an important revision across the wiki puts us in a deadlock.
 
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Georredannea15 said:
Transduality would be nuked by a higher dimensional concept or duality system.
Click to expand...
That's already been made clear above


Georredannea15 said:
However, if the concept of "death" or "life" is later added to the nature of that character or transferred/injected with another power, it will no longer be independent of the effects of this dual system.
Click to expand...
Georredannea15 said:
But when it comes to Transduality, the character's transcending the concept of duality and being "non-duality" makes it immune and superior to all the effects of duality
Click to expand...

Well, I disagree on this, you're pretty much proposing ND to not have actual immunity to the dualities because of the said reasons which is already discussed about and rejected above.
 
Zexer1 said:
That's already been made clear above





Well, I disagree on this, you're pretty much proposing ND to not have actual immunity to the dualities because of the said reasons which is already discussed about and rejected above.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's how it should be. The other thing is that lacking a space-time is not the same as being outside of space-time and being independent, and we all know that being outside of space-time is not without the properties of space-time.

In short, I am not sure why being outside of a system of duality and being independent is called "non-duality", while being outside of a system is not the same thing as being without the lack/devoid of a system.

Also, I don't think it's over yet. At least there are still people who oppose it, especially DT.
 
Georredannea15 said:
The other thing is that lacking a space-time is not the same as being outside of space-time and being independent, and we all know that being outside of space-time is not without the properties of space-time.

In short, I am not sure why being outside of a system of duality and being independent is called "non-duality", while being outside of a system is not the same thing as being without the lack/devoid of a system.
Click to expand...
That sounds like a bit of circular reasoning though I think you're misinterpreting the qualification for ND, it's not existing outside of but
"Nonduality is the state of being wherein an entity exists independently of, or lack"
Click to expand...
So, "lacking xx doesn't mean being outside of xx" argument doesn't hold relevance here.

Also, why being 'independent of' qualifies for nonduality is because independence from a said duality means that the character, as a result of being independent of it, isn't governed, influenced or affected by any effects of the duality in question... Which technically means that they also lack the duality.
 
Zexer1 said:
Also, why being 'independent of' qualifies for nonduality is because independence from a said duality means that the character, as a result of being independent of it, isn't governed, influenced or affected by any effects of the duality in question... Which technically means that they also lack the duality.
Click to expand...
But that doesn't mean it lacks the duality system again. Just think of it like that fine line when giving a BDE. Also, even if a character is non-duality in nature, the duality system can still be transferred to its nature with a different power.

To even go a little deeper, Transduality is not so much a "non-duality" as it is to contain and transcend duality. This causes him to act like a non-duality and superiority and become immune.

In short, Transduality is not a non-duality and not a transcendence. Having a system of duality, transcending it and being independent of its effects, and that doesn't make it non-duality, it just makes it behave like a "non-duality", which of course is much more powerful than a non-duality I've described.

Just as a character outside of space-time and devoid/lack of space-time is not affected by space-time, but someone outside of space-time cannot qualify for BDE and can be affected by a later power.

And the question I asked is this; Why is independence and being outside the system a non-duality? It's like arguing that a character who is independent and outside of space-time lack/devoid of space-time, but this is wrong.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
If two character of equal standing exist, and one has nonduality and the other has transduality, what is the difference between?
Click to expand...
To explain more clearly, for example, since a character lacks the concepts of death and life(a non-duality), it becomes independent of the effects of this duality system. However, if the concept of "death" or "life" is later added to the nature of that character or transferred/injected with another power, it will no longer be independent of the effects of this dual system.
Click to expand...
This case does not apply to Transduality.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Yeah.
Click to expand...
What distinguishes ND type 2 from ND type 3 (aka TD) when the argument made by the OP functions within a distinct philosophical context? The primary aim of the OP is to eliminate the notion of superiority, as “being unbound” inherently encompasses superiority. Therefore, there seems to be no need to introduce ND type 3.
 
ImmortalDread said:
What distinguishes ND type 2 from ND type 3 (aka TD) when the argument made by the OP functions within a distinct philosophical context? The primary aim of the OP is to eliminate the notion of superiority, as “being unbound” inherently encompasses superiority. Therefore, there seems to be no need to introduce ND type 3.
Click to expand...
Actually, if you look at it, I don't think it should be in your ND2. In fact, I don't even know why we implemented it in the first place, given that DT disagreed with this ND. At least we can wait for him.
 
DT disagreed but was outvoted. He can still give input, but we do have the right to apply these changes.

Anyways, I'll draft up a version of the new page when I get home. Some examples for each type would help a bit but they aren't necessary.
 
Well DT has bad opinions and I disagree with them. I won't respond to any particular post in that thread, but the reasons given were ******* abysmal.
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Ya, I don't think he did not get outvoted. None really addressed his arguments at all.

@Antvasima We probably need to wait for DT before applying any of the changes. His expertise is extremely appreciated.
 
ImmortalDread said:
Ya, I don't think he did not get outvoted. None really addressed his arguments at all.

@Antvasima We probably need to wait for DT before applying any of the changes. His expertise is extremely appreciated.
Click to expand...
No?? Ant, Qaws, Deagon, and Firestorm all agreed with the thread.

Also I DID address his arguments, he just never replied back. That's on him.
 
Georredannea15 said:
I agree with Dread on this one.
Click to expand...
Georredannea15 said:
But that doesn't mean it lacks the duality system again. Just think of it like that fine line when giving a BDE. Also, even if a character is non-duality in nature, the duality system can still be transferred to its nature with a different power.

To even go a little deeper, Transduality is not so much a "non-duality" as it is to contain and transcend duality. This causes him to act like a non-duality and superiority and become immune.

In short, Transduality is not a non-duality and not a transcendence. Having a system of duality, transcending it and being independent of its effects, and that doesn't make it non-duality, it just makes it behave like a "non-duality", which of course is much more powerful than a non-duality I've described.

Just as a character outside of space-time and devoid/lack of space-time is not affected by space-time, but someone outside of space-time cannot qualify for BDE and can be affected by a later power.

And the question I asked is this; Why is independence and being outside the system a non-duality? It's like arguing that a character who is independent and outside of space-time lack/devoid of space-time, but this is wrong.
Click to expand...
Also, I wanted to address the same argument before (but you were faster than me). We have literally the same setting for BDE.
 
Georredannea15 said:
But that doesn't mean it lacks the duality system again. Just think of it like that fine line when giving a BDE. Also, even if a character is non-duality in nature, the duality system can still be transferred to its nature with a different power.
Click to expand...
That doesnt mean it didn't lack duality. Think of a character that lacks t he concept of death, so they are unable to die. Now think of. A weapon that can introduce the concept of death. That doesnt mean that character had the concept of death all along
Georredannea15 said:
To even go a little deeper, Transduality is not so much a "non-duality" as it is to contain and transcend duality. This causes him to act like a non-duality and superiority and become immune.
Click to expand...
No one. is arguing for this, this is the reason why they are being separated
Georredannea15 said:
In short, Transduality is not a non-duality and not a transcendence. Having a system of duality, transcending it and being independent of its effects, and that doesn't make it non-duality, it just makes it behave like a "non-duality", which of course is much more powerful than a non-duality I've described.
Click to expand...
How is it not a transcendence and then you later say " transcending it and being independent of its effects"?
Georredannea15 said:
Just as a character outside of space-time and devoid/lack of space-time is not affected by space-time, but someone outside of space-time cannot qualify for BDE and can be affected by a later power.

And the question I asked is this; Why is independence and being outside the system a non-duality? It's like arguing that a character who is independent and outside of space-time lack/devoid of space-time, but this is wrong.
Click to expand...
Two very different concepts
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
DT disagreed but was outvoted. He can still give input, but we do have the right to apply these changes.

Anyways, I'll draft up a version of the new page when I get home. Some examples for each type would help a bit but they aren't necessary.
Click to expand...
DT is a bureaucrat. It's improper to overrule him just because he was outvoted.
 
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