Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[Hasty12345]

The answer is no, since history never describes that, and Athena has never had limitations on her powers.

The distortion in space and time was giving the characters memories of other dimensions, that's why he even gets the memories of the world of Aiolos, even though he was never there.

It is simply an ability granted to certain characters, which is why it is even noted in the story as the power of a specific god and not a general power of these.

I never said Athena was limited, I said she was the exception to every norm.

you’ve even argued this in the past with her being a god who has 8th sense.

I highly doubt you’re gonna argue she’s also the only known deity to exclusively reincarnate as a human.

and I could go on.

you’re also completely misinterpreting how the memory mechanic works, and ignoring Zeus’ own statements and knowledge.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I never said Athena was limited, I said she was the exception to every norm.

you’ve even argued this in the past with her being a god who has 8th sense.

I highly doubt you’re gonna argue she’s also the only known deity to exclusively reincarnate as a human.

and I could go on.

you’re also completely misinterpreting how the memory mechanic works, and ignoring Zeus’ own statements and knowledge.

It is not the exception to anything, as this is never shown in story.

Yes for the original manga and several spin-offs, but here we are talking about Episode.G, where the gods seem to dominate the senses.

His reincarnation as a human only gives him a human body and nothing more, not limiting his power at all, in a way he is more vulnerable than other gods, but not weaker in any way.

Literally, we can see how the distortion gives them memories of other worlds close to this one, something we can even see clearly when Shiryu has a vision of the events in the world of Aiolos, where he even observes his death.

 

[Hasty12345]

At this point you’re just being contrarian. You’ve now gone from “we’re generalising” to now “Athena has abilities she’s never shown” and that’s hilarious.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Bro Pontos was with Aiolos like. It literally went into him.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

This shows why it is impossible to debate calmly with some people, as some users stick to something until they get tired without taking anything into account.

Bro Pontos was with Aiolos like. It literally went into him.

At the moment, there is nothing to indicate this and the only hint of a connection between the two was thanks to a portal created by Aiolos.

 

[Hasty12345]

This shows why it is impossible to debate calmly with some people, as some users stick to something until they get tired without taking anything into account.

couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

At the moment, there is nothing to indicate this and the only hint of a connection between the two was thanks to a portal created by Aiolos.

If Aiolios created the portal... The who created the portal for the protagonist sanctuary?

Edit: Rephrase. How did Shion learn the same skill?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

There was also a statement from Zeus where he basically says hes independent of universes.

As I said, I have my doubts about this, as the scene could mean something different. Although thinking about it, I remember that Saori in chapter 14 creates a way to travel to Olympus, and warns Shun that he could be trapped by the interval in space and time, and never return, and there is also the Dragon God's pearl, which brought back Shiryu from the world where he arrived by distortion in time and space, or Andromeda's chain that brought back Tenma from the place she arrived in because of the same distortion. So there are other examples of characters that move through space and time, and two of them are divine (Athena and Dragon God), the problem is whether we can generalize this ability or is it just a specific ability of certain characters, either way it doesn't seem that Athena can control the destiny of two people if they are trapped by the space time interval. So the question would also come, who can control the destiny or the place they reach (we know Athena doesn't, that's why she needs Chronos' help to go to a specific point in space and time).

Speaking of moving through space and time, the spoiler for the last chapter of ND looks like Asclepius is going to use a distortion to send Tenma to a faraway place, but Odysseus intervenes to send him to the town where Sasha is. Though it remains to be seen if Asclepius creates the distortion with his power or simply controls it.

Edit: Rephrase. How did Shion learn the same skill?

The answer is unknown, but not only Shion, at the end of the first part of Requiem we can see Dohko using the Crystal Vortex to ask for help from Saints from other dimensions.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

As I said, I have my doubts about this, as the scene could mean something different. Although thinking about it, I remember that Saori in chapter 14 creates a way to travel to Olympus, and warns Shun that he could be trapped by the interval in space and time, and never return, and there is also the Dragon God's pearl, which brought back Shiryu from the world where he arrived by distortion in time and space, or Andromeda's chain that brought back Tenma from the place she arrived in because of the same distortion. So there are other examples of characters that move through space and time, and two of them are divine (Athena and Dragon God), the problem is whether we can generalize this ability or is it just a specific ability of certain characters, either way it doesn't seem that Athena can control the destiny of two people if they are trapped by the space time interval. So the question would also come, who can control the destiny or the place they reach (we know Athena doesn't, that's why she needs Chronos' help to go to a specific point in space and time).

Perhaps the events in ND is causing a distortion between all universes thus causing issues with other timelines?

The answer is unknown, but not only Shion, at the end of the first part of Requiem we can see Dohko using the Crystal Vortex to ask for help from Saints from other dimensions.

Completely forgot that Dohko could do it.

Also Kiki can use it too

 

[Hasty12345]

The answer is unknown, but not only Shion, at the end of the first part of Requiem we can see Dohko using the Crystal Vortex to ask for help from Saints from other dimensions.

well, we technically see Dohko opening the crystal vortex, he thanks Shion for casting the technique.

But that's a side note.

 

[AlexZiggy]

This shows why it is impossible to debate calmly with some people, as some users stick to something until they get tired without taking anything into account.

At the moment, there is nothing to indicate this and the only hint of a connection between the two was thanks to a portal created by Aiolos.

My guy you are literally arguing with Aiolos

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

My guy you are literally arguing with Aiolos

That doesn't say anything, it literally just tells you that Aiolos acquired a power that rivals the gods and was able to connect the worlds, again this is a power that Aiolos obtained in some unknown way.

 

[AlexZiggy]

That doesn't say anything, it literally just tells you that Aiolos acquired a power that rivals the gods and was able to connect the worlds, again this is a power that Aiolos obtained in some unknown way.

Yes. The power of the gods. Gods. Pontos is a god. Like what else is there to argue

 

[Hasty12345]

That doesn't say anything, it literally just tells you that Aiolos acquired a power that rivals the gods and was able to connect the worlds, again this is a power that Aiolos obtained in some unknown way.

what do you mean "unknown"? it says "through relentless study of the phenomenon"

He's seen it happen, studied it, replicated it. This isn't conjecture it's verbatim what happened.

 

[AlexZiggy]

what do you mean "unknown"? it says "through relentless study of the phenomenon"

He's seen it happen, studied it, replicated it. This isn't conjecture it's verbatim what happened.

And the only portal we've seen him with had the Black Sea spill through. He also says that this is the power of the gods. Like this is so basic

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

We do not know how he did it, other than to study this phenomenon, we do not know how he created the technique or how he acquired that knowledge, seriously stop being stubborn.

Yes. The power of the gods. Gods. Pontos is a god. Like what else is there to argue

Yes, but even among the gods there are unique powers, that is why they are gods of an element or idea, each god can have a different power, even though they are all gods and all have divine powers (so the power to move through space and time is described as a power related to Chronos and we can even see that Athena needs to borrow Chronos' power to do this). Once again we are generalizing, just because all characters control the same energy does not mean they have the same abilities.

 

[Hasty12345]

We do not know how he did it, other than to study this phenomenon, we do not know how he created the technique or how he acquired that knowledge, seriously stop being stubborn.

this literally cannot be more simple, you're the one being stubborn.
You are inventing holes in the plot that aren't there.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

No, I am simply explaining things as they are and what appears in history, that you keep insisting on something that does not appear that way is already different. You simply keep on fooling with something to the point of exhaustion, as I said it is impossible to debate with you.

 

[Hasty12345]

No, I am simply explaining things as they are and what appears in history, that you keep insisting on something that does not appear that way is already different. You simply keep on fooling with something to the point of exhaustion, as I said it is impossible to debate with you.

you're sitting there trying to say "we don't know we don't know" yet here we have Aiolos TELLING US how he did it.

no amount of skepticism will disprove what Aiolos himself does, tells us and performs.

You're the one who's arguing with me to the point of exhaustion, and you have a history of doing so, I literally stopped interacting with this verse for months due to your insufferable debate style and rat tactics.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

As I have already pointed out, much of this is unknown, so don't act as if it is fully explained in the story.

I can debate with any user, even if I do not agree with everything they propose and I can even help them with some example, but you are the only one with whom it is impossible to debate, you will simply remain stubborn to the end, you will never accept anything and will continue to insist with the same thing, so I say again it is impossible to debate with you.

 

[Hasty12345]

As I have already pointed out, much of this is unknown, so don't act as if it is fully explained in the story.

I can debate with any user, even if I do not agree with everything they propose and I can even help them with some example, but you are the only one with whom it is impossible to debate, you will simply remain stubborn to the end, you will never accept anything and will continue to insist with the same thing, so I say again it is impossible to debate with you.

It is well enough explained to make basic logical deductions, not even logical deductions it's literally a verbatim statement, and the whole chapter goes into plenty of depth on how this mechanic works. You're reading every 4th page and acting like you've read the manga.

And maybe I'm stubborn because you're ignorant. You cannot come across more arrogant in this post. You are not the authority on Saint Seiya, you are not always correct and you've rarely constructively aided with any proposal.

What's even more ironic is that I'm not even the one you've argued with the most on this site and more often than not I don't even agree with half the CRTs that have been proposed forget those that have passed, we actually agree on more than you think.

Our biggest contention is usually why things are wrong, not the fact the things are wrong... Mr "Okada didn't draw infinite fists so it's not infinite" like half the time I question as to if you read your own comments and reasoning sometimes.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Perhaps the events in ND is causing a distortion between all universes thus causing issues with other timelines?

It will be interesting to see if the mangakas make any reference to this event after the end of Next Dimension, since Okada, Saito and Ueda, Kuori, Tsuda, Alquie and Dollen will continue their works after this one. Maybe we will even see the Saintias' point of view in Saintia Sho or Time Odyssey is supposed to continue after Hades and, most likely, Next Dimension.

It would also be interesting to see a crossover of all the series of this franchise, it is quite rare, that all the series touch the theme of the multiverse, but we have never had a crossover with all the characters, even Okada with all the references to the multiverse, has never introduced any character from The Lost Canvas, it would have been epic that in Assassin we see Manigoldo or even Regulus.

It's funny how even in the videogames (the few I know of) for mobile that are famous for this, there is no story focused on a major crossover of the entire franchise. Even the closest we have to a crossover or a reference between the different works, is Dark Wing with the inclusion of Charlotte as the Necromancer Specter.

By the way, abilities that Shiori even considers them as part of her story, since she made an image with Byaku using the same abilities as Charlotte in Dark Wing.

Spoiler

So it would be interesting to see a little more interaction and references between all the works in the franchise.

Completely forgot that Dohko could do it.

Also Kiki can use it too

Well, Kiki needed a little help to activate it, although he could maintain the technique on his own for a few moments.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Guys cool it off we don't want trouble with the higher ups so let's cut it out with the accusations and insults.
I do still agree with Hasty though. Like if I say I walk into a house through the front door, you don't speculate if I entered through a window or something

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

It is well enough explained to make basic logical deductions, not even logical deductions it's literally a verbatim statement, and the whole chapter goes into plenty of depth on how this mechanic works. You're reading every 4th page and acting like you've read the manga.

And maybe I'm stubborn because you're ignorant. You cannot come across more arrogant in this post. You are not the authority on Saint Seiya, you are not always correct and you've rarely constructively aided with any proposal.

What's even more ironic is that I'm not even the one you've argued with the most on this site and more often than not I don't even agree with half the CRTs that have been proposed forget those that have passed, we actually agree on more than you think.

Our biggest contention is usually why things are wrong, not the fact the things are wrong... Mr "Okada didn't draw infinite fists so it's not infinite" like half the time I question as to if you read your own comments and reasoning sometimes.

No, I simply read all this story, because I really am a fan and I follow all the manga of this franchise (and I also check the Japanese material to see if there is no mistake in the translation), and that's why I question the context of some scenes, which is the purpose of these topics and I also question the fact of mixing different concepts, something that is no longer done nowadays and even this will be separated by universes, with the explanations that are repeated the same among all and some exclusive for certain stories.

When I have said that I am an authority on this, or something like that, I simply point out some problems about it and other times I bring a different explanation. There are even times when I am also surprised by the information that some users share, for example the complete raw of Taizen that they shared in this forum. However, lately we seem to be starting to agree more on some topics.

I am not even part of the administration of this page, so I only bring my point of view on the topic, and many times in fact I have agreed with what is proposed or most of this, after all it is a forum to discuss this and literally this happens with all series. What I said was correct, even several users pointed out the problem with that scene and interpreting it that way, that's why I indicated my problem with that. And in fact we even ended up accepting the idea of infinite speed with another explanation.

But as I said, you are the one with whom it is impossible to debate this, because you simply seek to always be right about everything without taking into account what is being debated and so you start attacking others who disagree with you.

 

[AlexZiggy]

I think you misunderstood his point.

 

[Hasty12345]

No, I simply read all this story, because I really am a fan and I follow all the manga of this franchise (and I also check the Japanese material to see if there is no mistake in the translation), and that's why I question the context of some scenes, which is the purpose of these topics and I also question the fact of mixing different concepts, something that is no longer done nowadays and even this will be separated by universes, with the explanations that are repeated the same among all and some exclusive for certain stories.

When I have said that I am an authority on this, or something like that, I simply point out some problems about it and other times I bring a different explanation. There are even times when I am also surprised by the information that some users share, for example the complete raw of Taizen that they shared in this forum. However, lately we seem to be starting to agree more on some topics.

I am not even part of the administration of this page, so I only bring my point of view on the topic, and many times in fact I have agreed with what is proposed or most of this, after all it is a forum to discuss this and literally this happens with all series. What I said was correct, even several users pointed out the problem with that scene and interpreting it that way, that's why I indicated my problem with that. And in fact we even ended up accepting the idea of infinite speed with another explanation.

But as I said, you are the one with whom it is impossible to debate this, because you simply seek to always be right about everything without taking into account what is being debated and so you start attacking others who disagree with you.

this is why debating with you is a pain, you literally don't seem to understand what I'm saying even in the slightest, and whilst I'm never one to assume others are at fault, no other user on the platform seems to have this problem like you do, so I have to think the disconnect is on your end.

It's not even worth responding to you here in-depth because you spent a whole paragraph trying to justify something that is at most a tangential side point to what I was saying. I know you never said you're an authority, I never said you said that like come on man.

You'll notice I never agreed to that infinite speed thread, my major point of contention was with you saying that because an artist didn't draw an infinite amount of something, it's not infinite. Which I still don't think you understand how stupid that reasoning actually is.

 

[Hasty12345]

I think you misunderstood his point.

story of my life with this guy.

 

[AlexZiggy]

story of my life with this guy.

XD

 

[AlexZiggy]

In any case, Lancelot you do realize you can do downgrade CRTs if you disagree right. That is a thing you can do.
I've said it with the infinite speed upgrade, the canonicity debacle and the Cronus/Chronos merger. You can open CRTs of your own.

 

[Veronica]

No, I simply read all this story, because I really am a fan and I follow all the manga of this franchise (and I also check the Japanese material to see if there is no mistake in the translation), and that's why I question the context of some scenes, which is the purpose of these topics and I also question the fact of mixing different concepts, something that is no longer done nowadays and even this will be separated by universes, with the explanations that are repeated the same among all and some exclusive for certain stories.

When I have said that I am an authority on this, or something like that, I simply point out some problems about it and other times I bring a different explanation. There are even times when I am also surprised by the information that some users share, for example the complete raw of Taizen that they shared in this forum. However, lately we seem to be starting to agree more on some topics.

I am not even part of the administration of this page, so I only bring my point of view on the topic, and many times in fact I have agreed with what is proposed or most of this, after all it is a forum to discuss this and literally this happens with all series. What I said was correct, even several users pointed out the problem with that scene and interpreting it that way, that's why I indicated my problem with that. And in fact we even ended up accepting the idea of infinite speed with another explanation.

But as I said, you are the one with whom it is impossible to debate this, because you simply seek to always be right about everything without taking into account what is being debated and so you start attacking others who disagree with you.

Can Hades destroy the 3 dimensions that he created with a single punch?

 

[Hasty12345]

Can Hades destroy the 3 dimensions that he created with a single punch?

is his fist that big?

 

[Veronica]

is his fist that big?

I mean with the force of the punch. Like How Saitama and Garou destroyed stars with their punch.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Can Hades destroy the 3 dimensions that he created with a single punch?

He actively sustained them. That is enough for the tier afaik

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

In any case, Lancelot you do realize you can do downgrade CRTs if you disagree right. That is a thing you can do.
I've said it with the infinite speed upgrade, the canonicity debacle and the Cronus/Chronos merger. You can open CRTs of your own.

The problem is that many stories are still continuing, especially the Next Dimension, so the CRT on how the multiverse of this franchise will be structured will have to wait for the end of this story, although many of us already agree that it will probably be separated into universes (unless Kurumada shows something different at the end). Infinite speed was already accepted in a CRT (where it basically stayed because of the powerscaling of the series and the proportional increase of speed with the cosmos) and we even agreed on the characters that would get this speed.

 

[Hasty12345]

I mean with the force of the punch. Like How Saitama and Garou destroyed stars with their punch.

it is effortless for Hades to sustain his realms as far as his depiction goes in the manga.

idk if it scales to striking strength

 

[AlexZiggy]

The problem is that many stories are still continuing, especially the Next Dimension, so the CRT on how the multiverse of this franchise will be structured will have to wait for the end of this story, although many of us already agree that it will probably be separated into universes (unless Kurumada shows something different at the end). Infinite speed was already accepted in a CRT and we even agreed on the characters that would get this speed.

So why bring it up if you agreed?
Also while that's true, if you wait for every single spin off to end you will be waiting for a while

 

[Veronica]

"Hades did not create the Underworld instantly. Instead, he gradually expanded and shaped it over time, using his power to manipulate the souls of the dead and the negative emotions associated with death to create his domain."

Is this true?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

So why bring it up if you agreed?
Also while that's true, if you wait for every single spin off to end you will be waiting for a while

I only pointed out the problem with one of the feat that was described, not the other explanation, the topic had two explanations and one was dismissed because it was rather vague, the other sounded more coherent and so was accepted. Before any change, first we have to see how the multiverse of the franchise will end up structured and for that we will have to wait for the end of ND, if Kurumada adds something different about this.

 

[AlexZiggy]

"Hades did not create the Underworld instantly. Instead, he gradually expanded and shaped it over time, using his power to manipulate the souls of the dead and the negative emotions associated with death to create his domain."

Is this true?

Not clue where that comes from. Afaik it just says he created it and actively sustains all of it from the manga to the official website

 

[AlexZiggy]

I only pointed out the problem with one of the feat that was described, not the other explanation, the topic had two explanations and one was dismissed because it was rather vague, the other sounded more coherent and so was accepted.

Right, so what was the issue again? Hyperbole? Because you can't just state something is hyperbolic you have you have to explain why that would be the case, especially when two different characters both describe the attacks as infinite.