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This thread doesn't want to make Fun Values 2-B...
You know what, drop the CRT. You're basically derailing rn with literally repeating yourself.
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Undertale CRT: 2-C and FUN Values
- Thread starter Roachman40
- Start date
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- Tags
- undertale
- Status
You know what, drop the CRT. You're basically derailing rn with literally repeating yourself.
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I did not see his message, since I was replying to Strym.
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But it wants to make base tier 2-B, no? And base tier for everyone is being scaled to cosmology.
Ped2018
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Exactly, and from removing Fun Values as an argument, and making RESETs the only one, given that the Fun have 0 business in influencing the amount of timelines generated.
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Which characters will be effected by this thread?
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- Frisk (Durability only)
- Asriel Dreemurr in the Angel/God of Hyperdeath form
- Chara in their Demon/Absolute state
- The Player
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bump
The_Pink_God
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Looks fine by me
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Looks legit.
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Ok Dragon, this is like the 3rd CRT where you commented right after I did.
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Completely agree with everything said in the OP and by Strym
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I just got back from work, and checking through my 38+ notifications. I was also messaged to comment here by the OP.
Sans015
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I'll have to disagree with this one. I believe the reason why it's believed that each reset creates a new timeline is based off one line from Sans, which can be found here:
"Our reports showed a massive anomaly in the spacetime continuum. Timelines jumping left and right, starting and stopping."
Interpreting 'timelines starting and stopping' as resets creating new timelines is something I would consider valid, but it's not explicitly said in any way. This is why I think a solid rating is not warranted. I agree that the fun values are no limiters for timelines as well and shouldn't be the solid rating as well.
Interpreting a line is basically trying to convey what the writer, Toby Fox, intended to say with this line. As we know, Toby Fox made the Japanese version himself with the help of a Japanese Team, therefore the Japanese version is also valid. Doesn't take priority, sure, but it still valid because Toby Fox quite literally tried his best so both versions convey the exact same information, even the jokes. So if the Japanese line portrays other context, one cannot say their interpretation of the English line is correct.
Let's take a look:
"じくうに だいきぼな ゆがみが はっせい しているらしい"
This translates to "It seems that a large distortion is occurring in space." in English.
In this context, "space" refers to the physical space or the three-dimensional expanse in which all matter exists.
"じかんのながれが メチャクチャにとんで... とまって….. また うごいて..."
This translates to "The flow of time is jumping around, stopping, and moving again..." in English.
The phrase "The flow of time is jumping around, stopping, and moving again" suggests that something is disrupting the normal, continuous progression of time. It's a metaphorical expression for a situation in which events are happening in an unpredictable or chaotic manner, rather than in a linear, orderly sequence.
This is definitive proof that the intent of the English line was not to convey the information that resets fabricate new timelines, but rather was just stop the flow of the timeline, then making it move again. Again, this is not a contradiction to Sans line, it is a contradiction to your interpretation of what it means.
Therefore I disagree with the interpretation for 2-B.
"Our reports showed a massive anomaly in the spacetime continuum. Timelines jumping left and right, starting and stopping."
Interpreting 'timelines starting and stopping' as resets creating new timelines is something I would consider valid, but it's not explicitly said in any way. This is why I think a solid rating is not warranted. I agree that the fun values are no limiters for timelines as well and shouldn't be the solid rating as well.
Interpreting a line is basically trying to convey what the writer, Toby Fox, intended to say with this line. As we know, Toby Fox made the Japanese version himself with the help of a Japanese Team, therefore the Japanese version is also valid. Doesn't take priority, sure, but it still valid because Toby Fox quite literally tried his best so both versions convey the exact same information, even the jokes. So if the Japanese line portrays other context, one cannot say their interpretation of the English line is correct.
Let's take a look:
"じくうに だいきぼな ゆがみが はっせい しているらしい"
This translates to "It seems that a large distortion is occurring in space." in English.
In this context, "space" refers to the physical space or the three-dimensional expanse in which all matter exists.
"じかんのながれが メチャクチャにとんで... とまって….. また うごいて..."
This translates to "The flow of time is jumping around, stopping, and moving again..." in English.
The phrase "The flow of time is jumping around, stopping, and moving again" suggests that something is disrupting the normal, continuous progression of time. It's a metaphorical expression for a situation in which events are happening in an unpredictable or chaotic manner, rather than in a linear, orderly sequence.
This is definitive proof that the intent of the English line was not to convey the information that resets fabricate new timelines, but rather was just stop the flow of the timeline, then making it move again. Again, this is not a contradiction to Sans line, it is a contradiction to your interpretation of what it means.
Therefore I disagree with the interpretation for 2-B.
Sans015
They/Them- 148
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In the phrase "stopping, and moving again", the words "stopping" and "moving" refer to the interruption and resumption of the flow of time, respectively. The use of the words "again" and "jumping around" suggest that this process of interruption and resumption is not a one-time event, but is happening repeatedly and in an unpredictable manner.
In Japanese, the phrase "とまって" (tomatte) is used to describe the act of "stopping" or "coming to a stop". The word "また" (mata) is used to indicate "again" or "once more". The phrase "うごいて" (ugoite) is used to describe "moving" or "starting to move".
Together, the phrase "とまって… また うごいて..." (tomatte... mata ugoite) conveys the sense of time being interrupted, coming to a stop, and then starting to move again, possibly in a repeated and unpredictable cycle.
I actually think he is not even talking about resets here.
Sans015
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Please have a look at my reasoning for disagreeing. I think they are convincing.
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After looking at that twitter link it kinda says they had to change some things for the japanese version due to certain english phrases not working well with the language. Toby and Co had to change that 'get dunked on' to something else for the japanese version, so it doesn't seem the versions convey the exact same information.
Otherwise, I do feel what the Japanese text is saying here is rather different to what the english text is saying, 'the flow of time' jumping around, stopping, and moving is alot different from 'timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting', I feel this is just certain japanese text not translating well into english, so to speak.
also, is this an official translation of the japanese line? where did you get this translation/translate this
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Sans015
They/Them- 148
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That is because of localized jokes! This does not apply to the line Sans says about timeline, as it has no term, sentence structure or cultural divide stopping the translation from happening naturally!
It is not, the flow of time can be referred to multiple timelines, there is not a way to refer to plural without using the formal version of the word "many" or "多数の" (tasuu no)/"多くの" (ooku no), which is not present in the original line. In this case, the English plural takes priority, but both lines are canon, and the Japanese version gives us a clearer context!
"多くのじかんのながれが" would mean "Many flows of time" or "many timelines", would be what we'd be looking for here!
I speak Japanese fluently!also, is this an official translation of the line? where did you get this translation/translate this
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Ped2018
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Congrats, you just became this wiki's official translator, you're not allowed to refuse it.
Sans015
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I am inclined to believe there are other native Japanese speakers here who could do a far better job than I could! I am not as skilled as a native speaker who lives in Japan as I am not in touch with Japan's culture as much, I will help whenever possible but I do not recommend making me your first option!
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Yeah the Japanese version just, doesn't really say the same thing as the original English.
"Jumping left and right" as a descriptor makes no sense if simply talking about resetting a single timeline. It would simply be the flow of time going back on itself and resuming. I feel that this line inherently implies that timelines are left behind by the time reset.
Even if Toby did work on the translation, I really don't think looking at the Japanese wording to debunk the original text is a good idea. Especially since the wording of Sans' original English statement... doesn't really make sense when interpreted in any other way. Like, people do often say this statement isn't explicit, but I don't think any other interpretation for it makes anywhere near more sense as simply "time resets create a timeline."
"Jumping left and right" as a descriptor makes no sense if simply talking about resetting a single timeline. It would simply be the flow of time going back on itself and resuming. I feel that this line inherently implies that timelines are left behind by the time reset.
Even if Toby did work on the translation, I really don't think looking at the Japanese wording to debunk the original text is a good idea. Especially since the wording of Sans' original English statement... doesn't really make sense when interpreted in any other way. Like, people do often say this statement isn't explicit, but I don't think any other interpretation for it makes anywhere near more sense as simply "time resets create a timeline."
Sans015
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It does!
"timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting".
"The flow of time is jumping around, stopping and moving."
They convey the same information when interpreted the same way! The only difference arrives when a particular interpretation of one of the versions comes to light, which is why we should discard it!
Again, plural is not something that can be conveyed on the same word in Japanese like it is in English, it is not possible to simply add a "s" to the end! "The Flow of Time" can refer to the entire Multiversal structure!
Even so, the original line may be interpreted as "leaving timelines behind", however, it does not say that, it is an interpretation, and thus should not be decisive.
"Jumping left and right" is an expression for "jumping around in disorder", "going haywire", or "going awry". The Japanese line says the exact same thing.
This is not the intent here! I am not trying to debunk the original line, but rather have evidence that the intentions behind it were not to subtly reveal how timelines are fabricated!
I am sorry, but I also disagree with your statement. Sans is trying to tell Frisk that Space Time is being distorted and the flow of time is going crazy by jumping around, which refers to SAVE and LOAD making the protagonist jump around in time, and "stopping and moving", which may refer to either the Resets, or when the player closes the game, which would cause the same effect. Games stops when you close it, game starts when you open it! Remember that the game closing is canon, and characters can trigger and acknowledge that!
There is no interpretation more valid than the other in my opinion! We need to consider both lines when interpreting what Sans is trying to say, both are trying to inform the same thing, otherwise Toby Fox would not have written it like that, essentially making two different canons for his game for no reason, which is not what he intended to do with this adaptation at all!
Please consider!
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I'm going to go with the clear original text that Toby Fox wrote on his own rather then the Translation to Japanese.
I don't care if Toby helped with the Japanese translation, at the end of the day the original text goes above literally everything else, unless said text is too vague(Like with Super Paper Mario stuff), and in this case, yeah, it ain't too vague.
I agree with this thread.
I don't care if Toby helped with the Japanese translation, at the end of the day the original text goes above literally everything else, unless said text is too vague(Like with Super Paper Mario stuff), and in this case, yeah, it ain't too vague.
I agree with this thread.
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I disagree.
I feel you cant really get the idea of a multiversal structure from "The flow of time is jumping around, stopping and moving." quote alone, even if you cant really put an 's' at the end of words in japanese they still could've said "Many flows of time" (which you yourself said was fine, it seems) to convey the same message the original quote had in that there is more the one timeline.
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I agree with this
Sans015
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Both lines were written by Toby Fox, a fluent japanese speaker. Both are canon and both convey the same information. You are also strawmanning my point! I am not saying the Japanese version should take over. The English version never proved the point in the first place, it's a personal interpretation that the Japanese version helps to debunk, both lines can co-exist. Neither line contradicts the other in any way.
By stating you do not care about what Toby was trying to say with this line, which is a factor when adapting, you are stating you don't care if you portray inaccurate information and inaccurate interpretation on your site by ignoring irrefutable evidence that proves Toby Fox intent.
The word "starting" is being interpreted as "new timeline", that is not true. The Japanese version still has to convey the same information regarding lore.
There is not a single factor, a single support, or even remotely a single indication that the line 'timelines jumping, stopping and starting' means that a new timeline is forming. This is an interpretation. Not a canonical fact, and holds no weigh on the topic.
The Japanese line debunks the interpretation, it's consistent with the English version, has Toby's direct support and carries his intent as much if not more than the English version (As I provided evidence that Toby made effort so both versions can be experienced the same way by it's respective players).
You may ignore evidence. That is just bias on your end. Yes the English version should be above the Japanese one, but no the English Version doesn't disagree with the Japanese version. Both are canon and should fall under the same interpretation.
"ga" is not singular! Plural and Singular are not even a thing in phonetic/phrase structures in Japanese. You cannot disagree, you are not knowledgeable on the language. The japanese "じかんのながれが" (jikan no nagare ga) can be both singular and plural, it depends on the context, and Undertale has plenty of other evidence to support that the line means plural here, there is no need to literally alter the original text in the translation to convey this. Yes, the phrase "じかんのながれが" (jikan no nagare ga) can be plural, depending on the context in which it is used. The word "ながれ" (nagare) can be translated as "flow" or "stream" in English, and it can refer to multiple flows or streams of time. The use of the word "また" (mata), meaning "again", suggests that this process is happening repeatedly, indicating that there are multiple instances of this disruption
You cannot just disregard Toby Fox's intent because of lack of plurals caused by how the language works. Just because the plural was not added, that doesn't make the intent of using "starting" as "moving" instead of "starting a brand new timeline through resets", something that was never said or implied, just interpreted, less valid.
The immutable fact is that Toby Fox intended to say the timelines are "coming to a stop, then starting to move again", that can be seen in both versions and the Japanese one is definitive as well!
It is sad that the idea of a particular interpretation is being pushed by bias and an agenda rather than neutral consideration of the evidence at hand. "Let's ignore the Japanese version which is just as canon because it refutes our interpretation of the English line"
The worst part is how everyone is lying about what I'm trying to do, claiming that "no, you're trying to say the English version is wrong", which is not at all what I'm trying to say.
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Sans015
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This is the second time I appeal for Staff to look at the debunk...
This is unfair to the opposing side, after Staff gives their input, they never reconsider if they're not interested on the topic. I'd hate to make a new thread for it.
Ped2018
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This thread has to be open for at least 48 hours, there's plenty of time
Sans015
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If staff does not want to consider the opposite side by not giving a second input until time is up, their agreement will make the thread go through regardless of my points.
People are lying about my intentions, refusing to actually consider what I have to say, and even lying about the English line being "clearly what we interpreted it as" just to push it through. This is discouraging.
Sans015
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I am sorry, if you guys want to discard the Japanese version as non-canon, there is nothing I can do but disagree quietly. Do whatever you want, I will not be responding nor making threads to make any changes for this decision, at the end, it's your interpretation of the story, and I shouldn't force you to change your minds.
I will just vote to disagree, and move on. I am unfollowing.
I will just vote to disagree, and move on. I am unfollowing.
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Aye, that was sorta my point? at least from what im understanding here, the japanese quote needing context to even justify if its talking about more than one timeline in the first place shows that its kinda different, the original quote doesn't need context to justify if its talking about multiple timelines due to it straight up saying 'timelines are jumping left and right', of which you cant really get from the japanese quote alone due to their being no way to signify if sans is speaking in a singular or plural manner by saying 'the flow of time'.
(...I was in the middle of expanding my response more but I suppose the situation worked out itself? hm)
Ped2018
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Man just gave up
Sans015
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Roachman40, the line is still plural in the Japanese version, we do have the context of the story when we get to this point of the battle. The line is identical. And even so, this tiny difference (a literal letter if it was in English) due to language barrier would not justify discarding the entire line. This strictness only exists for Undertale, not in any other verse.
Again, the only thing I can see here is that you guys don't consider the Japanese version canon, and I am okay with that. Just wanted to clear things up about the line. I am leaving now though.
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Ah yes, becuase translations from English to Japanese of all languages is just the holy Bible, let's talk about other translations from fluent Japanese Speakers shall we? Fate/Grand Order, third Psuedo Singularity, infamously mistranslated. A material book for Fate/Extra, Infamously translated- you get the point. Mistranslations happen.
"By ignoring my precious evidence that cannot be wrong despite damn near everything coming from Japanese to English being fucky in some way, you must be inaccurate!" Is all I'm hearing.
Saying a translation must convey the original lore is laughable, even Dragon Ball has had issues with translations changing the lore, why wouldn't Undertale?
Then tell us what the correct interpretation is? A translation that can have like 5 different incomparable versions? Heh.
See above.
Ah yes, Bias for a verse I genuinely couldn't give two ***** about in a vs debating sense. Sure, I like undertale, but the verse has a god-awful reputation for a reason. You can count the non-sans matches of recent I've gotten involved in on one hand, and that's usually because Sans has the most misinformation(Or wrong shit) thrown i so I have to lurk in order to make sure that doesn't happen.
Also, quit throwing around the "Nobody is listening to my debunks" thing, someone can disagree with you without quoting your essays you know,
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well, considering it seems the opposition of this thread doesn't seem interested in discussing anymore and the amount of staff agrees, I suppose this thread can be closed? will start adding this if so.
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