Maou Gakuin Source/ Root Type 1 Concept: Round 2

[Tatsumi504]

Introduction​

---

Really simple this time, just as the title says, the Source should be a Type 1 concept.

Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature

Source/Root​

The source is the fundamental concept of existence, and it defines all aspects of an individual.

The fundamental concept of existence that all living things hold within them. An excellent magician can be reincarnated with the memories of their life kept in their source, and even if the physical body perishes, as long as the source is intact, they can be revived.

-LN Volume 1 Keyword​

It exists beyond the body, soul and mind

To begin with, magic power is created from the magical source in our bodies. To put it simply, it's the soul, the psyche, but the source exists even deeper in the abyss, and it's what makes us who we are.

-LN Volume 1 Chapter 6​

And it exists across and governs the individuals past, present and future

Gavuel was a forbidden spell that forcefully released all the magic of
one’s source to spark an explosion of light magic. That is, it was a suicidal
source explosion that expended not only one’s life, but all their future lives
by releasing the magic that would have spanned those generations.

-LN Volume 3 Chapter 25​

“Now do you understand? Having your source wounded is an agony
worse than death. Condensing every imaginable pain in this world into one
would still be incomparable. After all, the deaths of your infinite number of
future incarnations are occurring all at once.”

-LN Volume 3 Chapter 27​

Reality​

---

As established in the introduction above, what the source governs is a person's existence across the past present and future. It exists deeper than the body, mind & soul and is independent of them.

Body​

Not much needs to be said here. By default anything done to the body is absolutely inconsequential and has no effect on the source. Even when a person is erased it does nothing to the source.

“I asked what you were trying to do.” I summoned Beno Ievun directly
inside Diego’s body.
“Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!”
Swallowed by the aurora of darkness, Diego vanished without a trace.
Then, cutting my finger with the nail of my thumb, I spilled one drop of
blood before me.
Ingall resurrected Diego’s body.

-LN Volume 3 Chapter 26.​

The source remembers the individual thus even if they're erased, it's possible to completely restore them.

Soul​

The soul plays no role whatsoever in the functionality or the existence of the source. By definition, the source exists separate and deeper than the soul which should be enough to prove this but here's more evidence;

Exhibit A: Sasha and Misha​

“Misha Necron doesn’t exist.”
Ah, I see. So that’s what it was. Now I could see the big picture.
“In other words, you were originally a part of Sasha,” I concluded.
Misha blinked twice in surprise. “How did you know?”
...
“I’m guessing it was a spell like Dielga. A separated source and body
eventually revert to their original state.”
...
"Not even you can help me, Anos. I never existed to begin with. I’m just
returning to my original state. I’m not going to die; I’m just going to disappear.
There’s no way of reviving me.”
Ingall resurrected the dead by restoring the soul—or, if one looked into the
abyss, the source at the root of one’s magic—that lingered after death. However,
Misha’s source had originally been Sasha’s. If I used Ingall after she
disappeared, the source used for her resurrection would no longer exist.
“A body and soul cannot remain split forever.”

-LN Volume 1 Chapter 22.​

“Inshort,I’mgoingtosendyoursourcesfifteenyearsintothepast,where
you’llfindyournewlysplitsource.Inboththepastandpresent,yoursourcewas
originallyone.MishaandSashaarethesameperson.Thepastandpresent
Mishaarealsothesameperson.Whenthetwosourcestrytobecomeone,the
pastMisha’ssourcecanbefusedwithhercurrentsource.Thesamegoesfor
Sasha.”

-LN Volume 1 Chapter 25.​

Sasha and Misha who were separated at birth were going to be returned to one. It's noted that what was split was their source yet, the result ended up dividing both their body and soul.
As noted, a separated body and soul eventually revert to their original state, they can't remain divided forever. They were sent back in time to fuse with their past selves and once again, all that was fused were their sources yet it also resulted in their body and soul becoming whole once again.

Exhibit B: Ennesuone​

"This child, Ennesuone, is the new order that Militia has entrusted to me. She must have wished to be born by the authority of Wenzel, the god of birth."
...
"I'm not certain if it has anything to do with it, but Ennesuone is only born incomplete. There is something she is missing. I am sure that Militia knew what it was. And perhaps--"

"Ennesuone herself must have known it?"

Wenzel nods.

"It was also Ennesuone who knew that you would eventually head for the Azure Sky of the Gods. That would be the word that Militia entrusted to her. If she could be born, even imperfectly, surely she would remember Militia's message perfectly."

-WN Chapter 402.​

"What other reason could there be for Ennesuone not to be born?"

"There is only one left. She was deprived of what she needed to be born."

Wenzel replies.

Hm. I've already heard that. A mindless puppet, a vessel without magic, a soul without a body."

-WN Chapter 403​

Ennesuone is a new Order which Militia created. Because of the nature of her Order was in conflict with all other Orders, she was born incomplete and among the things she was deprived of for her birth to be complete was a soul without a body. In other words her source could still exist without a soul.

Mind​

Not much to prove here. It's been handled in a past thread already that the source is independent of the Mind based on characters being able to think with only their source, cast magic as just a source, store memories within their source.

Counter Arguments​

---

1.) Normally when this is discussed, there's always those with the opinion

Type 1 require the concept to be independent from universal reality, not just independent from singular person or a group, it govern

to which I say, no this is false.
"Reality" simply refers to what the concept governs, it doesn't require it to be independent of and govern universal reality. It only requires it to be independent of and govern the reality it participates in even if it's a simple object as long as it governs all instances of the object which the source does as confirmed by staff and a knowledgeable member on CM

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2.) During the last attempt at this, the major argument against the upgrade as stated by knowledgeable member @imZer0Null was

When a person dies by almost any means, e.g. by being decapitated or by having their physical body destroyed, their source and consciousness will remain for a short while (presumably at least 3 sec, tho we've seen more powerful characters remain as only a source for a longer time), before "ascending to heaven and dying".
If they cannot resurrect or reincarnate themselves via magic, it is said to be equivalent to source destruction. This is because their source changes form, changes power, and loses memory, essentially becoming a different source, before it governs the person's existence when they are naturally reborn.
In short, the source is slightly independent from the object it governs, that being a person's existence, but when a person dies, the source changes form and governs the naturally reborn person's existence, meaning it basically changed which object it governs.
Therefore, it is not completely independent from the object it governs and does not qualify as a type 1 concept.

Firstly, don't get me wrong, what he stated is absolutely correct but something is missing from all this and that's the Order of Reincarnation.
As established from past CRT's Order are the Laws, Concepts, Fate that govern reality and all Orders are type 1 Concepts thus as indicated in our definition of type 1 Concepts

Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature.

Hence a concept being dependent on another type 1 concept doesn't disqualify it from being type 1 itself.

Even in worlds where there's no Order of Reincarnation, the Source simply returns to the worlds Fire Dew where it loses power, memory and is reborn as a new individual but still the same person

"If the fire dew is lost, life will be lost in the bubble world. Isn't it possible that the residents who were supposed to be reincarnated will be reborn in another world?"
...
"Why don't you bring back the fire dew? They have their lives too."

"What do you mean? Their life ends when they die. It's just a matter of starting a new life in a new world. It's just a different person with the same origin."
...
"Returning fire dew to the bubble world is a foolish act that erases life. Bubbles will eventually disappear. Throwing life into it is like returning a fish that has finally reached the sea to the land again. It may be different from your world's beliefs, but that's the principle of the Silver sea."

Instead of denying me, Ottorlou said gently.

"It's a very lucky thing for the life that fire dew crosses the world. It's a proof that they were blessed by this sea."

If the bubble world will surely perish, then there is certainly a point.

-WN Chapter 502.​

As seen from above, the source is also unaffected by the destruction of the reality where it's created/born. Even if the world were to be destroyed, the source will simply go back to being Fire Dew and be reincarnated in any of the deeper worlds.

Fire Dew
Something that flows through the Fundamental Laws Cyclic Garden, the domains of the Four Fundamental Laws Gods, equivalent to the term "Source" in the world of mortals. It is born, deepens, meets its demise, changes and cycles back to birth again, gradually decreasing its total amount in the process.

-LN Volume 10 Keyword
​

A visualization of the laws that affect the "Source" of the earth, which flows in the depths of the "Azure Sky of the Gods". It is the very power itself that the world contains, and the strength of the world's order is approximately equivalent to the total amount of fire dew that it contains.

-LN Volume 11 Keyword.​

Fire Dew is a force that exists across the entire Silver Sea and is equivalent to the "Order of Life-force", or the term "Source" in the world of mortals.

Secondly, he is also wrong in saying that the source governs a new individual's existence. The source doesn't change what object it governs, the reborn individual is still the exact same person fundamentally except that their memories, power, personality changed and even with all this, the core of the person remains the same

“Of course I am... I’m Diego Kanon Ijeiska, bearer of Hero Kanon’s
source...and I shall be the one to defeat you demons and save the world!”
“I don’t believe that. Reincarnation changes people. Memories are lost
along the way. But deep down, those people are still just the same. You are
nothing like Hero Kanon. Your very nature is ugly and distorted.”

LN Volume 3 Chapter 27.​

I'll digress here but in the first place when an individual is born they possess no memories or personality of note. Though genes may influence some traits, ultimately it's interaction with the society around us that determine what personality people will develop. But even with this, the very fundamental nature of a person remains the same thus it's wrong to equate a change in identity, personality, memory as a change in what the source governs.

There can only be one source for a person and no two individuals can possess the same identical source. There is also no amount of magic that can create an exact duplicate of a person.

“You’re not making any sense,” Sasha insisted. “Theoretically, that might
work if there were copies of both of us, but where would we find those? Are you
saying there’s a spell that can create an exact copy of someone?”
“Unfortunately, no amount of magic can duplicate a person,” I admitted.
“Our sources are unique to each of us; only one exists in this world.”

LN Volume 1 Chapter 25.
​

“So both Zeshia and Diego are clones born by duplicating sources with
magic.”
There was no mistake—the two of them definitely had their sources
destroyed yet had revived anyway, and it was all because the clones were so
identical, they were indistinguishable from one another. Theoretically
speaking, they couldn’t be completely identical, but any differences between
them were too subtle for my Eyes to pick up.

-LN Volume 3 Chapter 31.​

Conclusion​

---

The Source meets the requirements for a type 1 concept. It's separate from and is independent of the body, mind & soul, it governs an individuals existence across time.
Aside from being dependent on another type 1 concept, it is unaffected by the destruction of what it governs and even in the eventuality of the destruction of general reality, it simply returns to another concept where it can then be reborn in a separate reality.

New Arguments start here https://vsbattles.com/threads/maou-gakuin-source-root-type-1-concept-round-2.150801/post-5567836

Agree= 1:6
Neutral= 0:0
Disagree= 2:2

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Already discussed several times in MG thread & private So I agree with this thread.

 

[God900]

Finally, till you did it. I was planning to do this thread, but you Ninjae'd me lol.

I fully agree with this, it was time someone had to bring this up.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I was planning to do this thread, but you Ninjae'd me lol.

@Gasfo would still love you & @Tatsumi504 Equally so don't worry

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah none of this sounds like type 1 concept. it existing across the past present and future literally talks about the individual's incarnations, nothing about this makes it a concept that governs reality, let alone something that exists independantly of reality.

 

[Planck69]

The source is specifically stated to exist within individuals. It being deeper than the body, soul and mind is a given, seeing as its their conceptual existence but so far no actual statement of it being beyond or predating reality was made. And the past, present and future refers to their reincarnations, which would make sense even with regular souls.

Disagree for now.

 

[Tatsumi504]

nothing about this makes it a concept that governs reality, let alone something that exists independantly of reality.

"Reality" simply refers to what the concept governs, it doesn't require it to be independent of and govern universal reality. It only requires it to be independent of and govern the reality it participates in even if it's a simple object as long as it governs all instances of the object which the source does as confirmed by staff and a knowledgeable member on CM

Did you really choose to ignore everything in this portion?

but so far no actual statement of it being beyond or predating reality was made. And the past, present and future refers to their reincarnations, which would make sense even with regular souls.

Planck, I asked you about this last year December, literally only 3 months back and this was your answer

1. It generally depends on the cosmology in question but that's not that important as far as the types themselves go. The main point is that the concepts govern that described part of reality while being independent of it in the sense that affecting the reality directly doesn't affect the concept itself.

The size of the reality is mostly relevant for range and/or potency.

2. No. A concept can be of any type regardless of whether it governs all life or if its the Form of the Apple. Assuming I understood your question.

Predating reality isn't the only way for a concept to be type 1. Proving it to be independent of it qualifies as well.

Even if this is your argument, the source is equivalent to Fire Dew and upon an individuals death, if they fail to resurrect, it returns to Fire Dew.

Fire Dew predates the world itself, is independent of the world. If the world is destroyed, it simply flows into the silver sea and the individuals are reincarnated in a completely different reality. It is literally unaffected by the destruction of it's reality. What more are you looking for?

 

[Planck69]

Did you really choose to ignore everything in this portion?

Planck, I asked you about this last year December, literally only 3 months back and this was your answer
Predating reality isn't the only for a concept to be type 1. Proving it to be independent of it qualifies as well.

Yes. And so far what's been proven is;

• Source is a fundamental part of existence.
• It doesn't care for mind, body and soul.
• It remains constant throught one's reincarnations.

All of which just proves it conceptual nature rather than any independence to reality.

Even if this is your argument, the source is equivalent to Fire Dew and upon an individuals death, if they fail to resurrect, it returns to Fire Dew.

Fire Dew predates the world itself, is independent of the world. If the world is destroyed, it simply flows into the silver sea and the individuals are reincarnated in a completely different reality. It is literally unaffected by the destruction of it's reality. What more are you looking for?

Fire Dew is likely a Type 1 concept but all the quotes so far show is that apparently, the Source returns to it after death(?) and a comparison for understanding's sake. Not much as actually said or shown the Source itself to truly be independent of reality.

This would be like me saying "Souls in God of War return to The Light of Alfheim, a higher dimensional force that predates reality. Therefore souls are Type 1 concepts".

 

[Arzzz]

this is interesting.. let me see what other opinions are.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This would be like me saying "Souls in God of War return to The Light of Alfheim, a higher dimensional force that predates reality. Therefore souls are Type 1 concepts".

Souls and concepts are way different. I really don't see any good comparison.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Fire Dew is likely a Type 1 concept but all the quotes so far show is that apparently, the Source returns to it after death

Fire Dew
Something that flows through the Fundamental Laws Cyclic Garden, the domains of the Four Fundamental Laws Gods, equivalent to the term "Source" in the world of mortals. It is born, deepens, meets its demise, changes and cycles back to birth again, gradually decreasing its total amount in the process.

The process of being born, deepening, meeting demise, change is literally Reincarnation.
The source is born, the process of deepening is what happens when inhabitants gain magic power by approaching source destruction, the source then meets it's demise where after it loses memory, power thus changing before being reborn (cycling back to birth).
Source= Fire Dew, everything you need to judge this is in the OP

 

[Planck69]

Souls and concepts are way different. I really don't see any good comparison.

Souls in GoW are made up of concept, luck and mind, should've specified. But the point itself gets across. Fire Dew having its properties as such doesn't equate to individual Sources being the same way.

 

[Dereck03]

Ayo the whatabouthism

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Snip.

I will leave this thread to Tatsumi

I was about to ask why you closed my thread because of dread & Kloi argument. I never asked anyone to close it. Beside there was a another staff who was evaluating and 2 other staff were ready to evaluate it. Can you reopen this.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/higher-dimensional-existence-upgrade-for-lod.150687/

 

[Dog3352]

Souls in GoW are made up of concept, luck and mind, should've specified.

Isn't the source itself a concept? And I don't think GoW is the best example, as as far as I've seen, fonts aren't as simple as "it's made of concepts".

In itself, everything (in relation to a person) depends on the source, without the source there are no memories, soul, body or mind, it exists deeper than that, the person remains the same after reincarnating, just changing the memories, but , with the people still being the same, the fonts even have a similar (basically the same) nature as fire dew.

I said too much, I agree with the CRT.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Tatsumi504 and did you choose to ignore what's said in the conceptual manipulation page? Nothing you've said about the source remotely mentions it governs all of reality, the source only governs the individual person. At best this is a type 3 concept, not a type 1.

 

[Dog3352]

@Tatsumi504 and did you choose to ignore what's said in the conceptual manipulation page? Nothing you've said about the source remotely mentions it governs all of reality, the source only governs the individual person. At best this is a type 3 concept, not a type 1.

As I recall, fonts are abstract concepts, and isn't this already type 2?
And I'm pretty sure this was covered in this very CRT.

 

[Tatsumi504]

@Tatsumi504 and did you choose to ignore what's said in the conceptual manipulation page? Nothing you've said about the source remotely mentions it governs all of reality, the source only governs the individual person. At best this is a type 3 concept, not a type 1.

Glass, you've just proved you didn't even read the part with the counter arguments that's in the OP. I literally addressed this there. A concept doesn't need to govern all of reality. Reality refers to what the concept governs or participates in which I received confirmation for from Planck himself just 3 months ago. The scans with the Convo is literally there.

Even on the CM page, the example for type 1 uses the concept of circles. Obviously the concept of circles doesn't govern reality, just circles. For the concept of circles to be type 1, changing the nature of all circles should have absolutely no effect on the concept and affecting the concept itself should affect all circular objects.

What the source governs is an individual's existence. It isn't affected by any change to that existence and affecting the source affects that existence.
The source is also unaffected by the destruction of the universal reality it participates in and just ends up being reborn in a separate one.

The source itself is Fire Dew which determines the existence of other laws, type 1 concepts and fate which govern universal reality. If Fire Dew in a world is exhausted, that worlds reality collapses and becomes destroyed

It doesn't get any simpler than this.

 

[Dog3352]

Anyway, recap.

Sources are the fundamental concept of existence:

Spoiler

Source
The fundamental concept of existence that all living things hold within them. An excellent magician can be reincarnated with the memories of their life kept in their source, and even if the physical body perishes, as long as the source is intact, they can be revived.

There is only one source for each person:

Spoiler

Spoiler

"Unfortunately, no type of magic can create the same exact person. There is only one source for all of us in this world."

Even when a source is split/split into two, they will come back to being one eventually:

Spoiler

"Two separate souls, in other words, one separated source, is always fated to return to one. Then, don't you think it would be better if there was another source?"

Sources are independent concepts, affecting one source does not affect the other source, as all sources are unique, they are the fundamental concept of existence, and there is only one for each person, even when you separate one source into two, they eventually go back to being a font.

In addition to the fonts having a similar nature to fire dew, and even being "compared" to each other.

As far as I've seen, fonts follow the nature of a type 1 concept.

Besides, according to the page itself, it seems not exactly necessary to "govern a reality".

1. Conceitos Universais Independentes: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature.

 

[Planck69]

Ayo the whatabouthism

I am literally just articulating a point with an example. That being the properties of Fire Dew that possibly make it a Type 1 concept aren't mirrored by Sources in the quotes provided at all.

So far, other than that comparison, the rest is standard conceptual properties (fundamentality, unbound by body, mind and soul). Nothing about being independent of reality or the object governed has been brought up (if anything the property of it being able to pass on is a mark against that).

So for now, I still disagree.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I am literally just articulating a point with an example. That being the properties of Fire Dew that possibly make it a Type 1 concept aren't mirrored by Sources in the quotes provided at all.

So far, other than that comparison, the rest is standard conceptual properties (fundamentality, unbound by body, mind and soul). Nothing about being independent of reality or the object governed has been brought up (if anything the property of it being able to pass on is a mark against that).

So for now, I still disagree.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/maou-gakuin-source-root-type-1-concept-round-2.150801/post-5562797

Ayo now I'm sure y'all are ignoring me.

It's not the properties of Fire Dew, it's the equivalent of Fire Dew

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dog3352 Everything you just quoted just talks about the source being a type 3 concept. The fact the source only focuses on an individual person and not all of reality, let alone existing outside of reality.

@Tatsumi504 You're right that a concept doesn't need to govern all of reality, the problem is for type 1 concept you explicitly need that to be the case.

Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

Ok, Planck answered some questions for you, that doesn't mean he agrees with you with the concept stuff as clearly shown in this thread.

Wow, a concept not affected by a person being altered because it's deeper than the soul, it's like that's how concepts generally work for an individual.

So all you've proven is the fire dew is a type 2 to potential type 1 concept. That still doesn't means the source is a type 1 concept when it only governs the individual, not all of reality like it's stated on the page.

 

[Dog3352]

Everything you just quoted just talks about the source being a type 3 concept. The fact the source only focuses on an individual person and not all of reality, let alone existing outside of reality.

So all you've proven is the fire dew is a type 2 to potential type 1 concept.

Is this some kind of unfunny joke?

The sources have already been accepted as a type 2 concept because they are the concept of existence, being something abstract and fundamental, this is an attempt to make it type 1.

Fire Dew has been accepted as a Type 1 concept for months now.

Knowledge 0 about what happens in MGK's CRTS.

 

[Tarang123]

Currently disagree due to Plank's and glassman's reasons above

 

[deonment]

I do just agree with this as the source is something conceptual, defines the individual it governs and exists independently of them, and I will just say this now, the mention of reality on the concept manip page is only referring to what the concept in question governs, the concept of fire could be limited to the planet earth alone and if it was unaffected by the state of fire on earth it would qualify for type 1 concept manip

 

[Dog3352]

I do just agree with this as the source is something conceptual, defines the individual it governs and exists independently of them, and I will just say this now, the mention of reality on the concept manip page is only referring to what the concept in question governs, the concept of fire could be limited to the planet earth alone and if it was unaffected by the state of fire on earth it would qualify for type 1 concept manip

Only this refutes all the arguments that went against

 

[Dereck03]

What a bad attempt to downgrade source to type 3... It is noted that they have read the definition of type 2 concept by which the source was accepted as such.

2. Dependent Concepts:

Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence.

Both 1 and 2 are based on the reality of the area they govern, be it a person, a planet, a galaxy, a universe, whatever.

These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

Here we have all the defect, the concept is not bound directly to what it governs, what I mean is that the body, the mind, the spirit, the soul are bound to the source, but the source can be independent of them, so it would not be a concept dependent on what governs but independent, as such, destroying everything that governs the concept would not affect the concept as such, while destroying the concept, would directly destroy everything that governs.

1. Independent Universal Concepts:

Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

As I said, the source governs the concept of existence of each person across the whole space-time, past, present and future, it is completely independent of its governing reality, which is the body, mind, soul, spirit y el abyss. Destroying everything previous does not affect the source, while destroying it would destroy everything that governs, the source is even compared to already pre-existing concepts previously classified as type 1, already with all this is enough to qualify as type 1.


SO PUT ME ON AGREE.

 

[Dereck03]

not all of reality like it's stated on the page.

Read again.

all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates"

The reality that the concept governs, the area of influence of the concept, the level of the area that governs the concept and all that participates in it. Clearly the page is all against you as it refers to the reality of what the concept governs.

Both 1 and 2 are based on the reality of the area they govern, be it a person, a planet, a galaxy, a universe, whatever.

 

[Dog3352]

Everything @deonment and @Dereck09 says is right, there's no reason to be against CRT.

Source: Concept (and the fundamental concept of existence), fundamental (and the fundamental concept of existence), abstract (and the concept of existence), individual (there is one for each being), independent of what they govern (independent of body, mind, soul).

Type 1 Concepts: Concepts Independent of what they govern (does not necessarily have to be reality)

Probably the reason for the disagreement is that when altering a source, you don't change all the sources, although this "should" happen according to the explanation of the type 1 concept, but, you have to remember that the source is one concept unique and individual, there is a source for each one, altering or destroying a source does not affect the other for this reason, they are like 'concept type 1 of realities (or whatever they govern) different'.

Best example: The body, mind and soul are the "reality" of the concept (what governs), while the source and the fundamental concept ("type 1 concept"), sources are individual and unique, there is a source for each person , and there is a body, mind and soul for each of these sources, which means that each of these "type 1 concepts" (source) are separate concepts from each other that govern different "realities" (body, mind and soul).

I think this explanation is good? Although I don't know if this can be accepted as a type 1 concept.

 

[Dog3352]

@Dereck09

One question, does the source govern the concept of existence or is the source the concept of existence?

 

[Dereck03]

@Dereck09

One question, does the source govern the concept of existence or is the source the concept of existence?

Is the fundamental concept of existence.

 

[YoPercy]

Agree with the CRT. I am damn well curious how planck and glassman gonna try and refute this.

 

[Dog3352]

Yeah none of this sounds like type 1 concept. it existing across the past present and future literally talks about the individual's incarnations, nothing about this makes it a concept that governs reality, let alone something that exists independantly of reality.

I'm curious why you think that's what you meant.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Actually I disagree with this, this would be a type 3 concept.
If source were to be type 1, all humans or everyone with a source would be under the influence of a single one. i.e. there will be a single source that is governing all other source or humans in the verse, not like one source for each person as those are specific concepts, which will be CM type 3.
This is literally the textbook definition of type 3

such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question

Yes sources govern just that singular object (person) continously and they are literally "personal concepts"

merely on a more specific scale

And yes the scale is very specific, that one person


And for the love of God - body, mind and souls are not realities. I do not even want to unwrap that, I will just say, realities refer to space or a place in which there are objects or things or laws participating in the said concepts, in the context of CM 1 and 2. For concepts that govern a specific object and nothing else, that is type3.
And here source governs a specific person, that is type 3.

Count me as disagree with this.

 

[Dog3352]

If source were to be type 1, all humans or everyone with a source would be under the influence of a single one. i.e. there will be a single source that is governing all other source or humans in the verse

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept.

It is not necessary to have more than one object that 'participates' in this concept for it to be type 2, the sources are said to be a 'fundamental concept of existence', and see my explanation.

Probably the reason for the disagreement is that when alteration a source, you don't change all the sources, although this "should" happen according to the explanation of the type 1 concept, but, you have to remember that the source is one concept unique and individual, there is a source for each one, altering or destroying a source does not affect the other for this reason, they are like 'concept type 1 of realities (or whatever they govern) different'.

Best example: The body, mind and soul are the "reality" of the concept (what governs), while the source and the fundamental concept ("type 1 concept"), sources are individual and unique, there is a source for each person, and there is a body, mind and soul for each of these sources, which means that each of these "type 1 concepts" (source) are separate concepts from each other that govern different "realities" (body, mind and soul).

Also in the OP it was already shown that it was confirmed by CM experts on the wiki that a concept linked to an object itself.
in addition to also having Dereck's comment just above yours explaining this.

 

[deonment]

And for the love of God - body, mind and souls are not realities. I do not even want to unwrap that, I will just say, realities refer to space or a place in which there are objects or things or laws participating in the said concepts, in the context of CM 1 and 2. For concepts that govern a specific object and nothing else, that is type3.

No, it doesn't this is objectively false, the platonic archetype of a vase does not govern anything but a vase, it makes 0 sense for us to use the relationship between concept and reality rather than a concept and the thing it governs, as the latter implies the concept has any impact upon reality greater than just the existence of what the concept is the concept of.
Reality in this context objectively means the thing the concept is the concept of, cease and desist.

Yes sources govern just that singular object (person) continously and they are literally "personal concepts"

Personal concepts would only be type 3 if they did not meet the requirements of the other two types, which is just not the case here.

And yes the scale is very specific, that one person

Scale doesn't matter with concept types, this is cap. The only thing that determines their type is their relationship with what they are the concept of.

If source were to be type 1, all humans or everyone with a source would be under the influence of a single one. i.e. there will be a single source that is governing all other source or humans in the verse, not like one source for each person as those are specific concepts, which will be CM type 3.

That isn't how that would work, there can be a platonic form of [Insert person here], but that does not make that form not type 1, because it still has the properties that type 1 concept displays.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

I agree with OP

 

[Dereck03]

Personal concepts would only be type 3 if they did not meet the requirements of the other two types, which is just not the case here.

Exactly this. Nothing says that personal concepts cannot be type 1 or 2, in fact the simple descriptions provided imply that the source would not even qualify for type 3 or 2 because it is independent of what it governs and more statments already provided, furthermore the page refers to what the concept itself governs, it never limits it, so the argument against it is completely incorrect, if you feel bad just change the standards to limit personal concepts or expand the range of influence of the concepts for qualification cos the very definition of type 2 and 1 is against all of the refutals..

 

[deonment]

Exactly this. Nothing says that personal concepts cannot be type 1 or 2, in fact the simple descriptions provided imply that it would not even qualify for type 3 or 2 because it is independent of what it governs, furthermore the page refers to what the concept itself governs, it never limits it, so the argument against it is completely incorrect, if you feel bad just change the standards to limit personal concepts or expand the range of influence of the concepts for qualification cos the very definition of type 2 and 1 is against all of the refutals..

To add onto this, when mental concepts were still an entirely separate type, there were verses that had mental concepts that were type 1, eg persona, where mental concepts were type 1 in addition to the previously mentioned type 4, or concepts that behaved like basically all types, eg nasuverse, where the concepts literally behaved like every single concept type on wiki.
Just because something is a nonstandard type of concept (type 3 or the now merged with type 3 type 4) doesn't mean it can't be a standard type of concept (types 1 and 2), at worst they simply just are both type 3 and either type 2 or 1.

 

[Fixxed]

Yeah agree with this

Btw as long as i understand CM 3 is concept that not govern all of the reality (object) and/or concept that not being explain further. So CM 3 is govern thing but just in very specific scale of that thing and/or concept that just mention concept without further explanation

In this, root already govern all of reality or all of the person, it is not in specific scale but in universal scale or all of that person even the past present and future of that person. And of course being independent from the reality