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DOOM 1-C cosmology

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Hellscream

Hellscream

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I just read through the previous DOOM cosmology thread, and it was accepted to be 5-D due to Hell being an extension of Davoth.

Statements of hell being ulimited by the boundaries of space, time and dimension: https://gyazo.com/832c83e8021e2d1d9d5cf2a8b772c727


Davoth was the first Primordial being in the DOOM cosmology and created the verse from the void.
However, there are direct statements, that Urdak (a higher dimensional realm) that resides in the 6-th Dimension is inferior to Jekkad (Hell) which is the extension of Davoth.
This would make Hell atleast 6-D, and Davoth 7-D from it being an extension of him.

Davoth is the first primordial being, and the creator of the verse: https://gyazo.com/eb3c87514359933e8c59ce3647222eda
ref: Book of the seraphs Part I

Davoth, after being betrayed became enraged, and due to being enraged transformed Jekkad (the realm superior to Urdak) into Hell.
gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com gyazo.com

Urdak being described as a higher dimension: https://gyazo.com/156bf82d7f0a4176944e1c26ef5ca081

Urdak residing in the 6-th Dimension: https://gyazo.com/207f5e508f28204ea4c64133937a2ee8

Edited: Urdak is also described as being in a "higher reality" as opposed to the known universe, which is the very definition of qualitative superiority. Which yet again supports the argument even further that it is in a higher dimension, as opposed to "flowery language"
As seen in the DOOM codex here: https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Codex/Story_of_the_Maykrs#Urdak

the universe in which "earth" resides in is referred to as the "earthly realm" as opposed to the usage of "dimension" which was called "flowery language" before.
gyazo.com

Gyazo

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Edited: The creator of the verse, is described to as being an ageless and formeless entity, and is said to enfold the entire verse within it's arms, which supports qualitative superiority. And the fact that the creators literally confirmed on stream that Hell is but a mere extension of Davoth's being, that combined with the statements of it being a "higher reality as opposed to the known world" and of being in a "higher dimension" along with Hell being unbound by time, space and dimension.
gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com gyazo.com
gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com gyazo.com

So all in all, Urdak resides in the 6-th Dimension, a realm that is inferior to Jekkad (Hell) which is merely an extension of Davoth himself. This would make Davoth 7-D and 1-C.

All screenshots are from the DOOM codex, which is shown in the DOOM Eternal game.



Agree: @LephyrTheRevanchist @Vietthai96 Possibly
Neutral: @Da3ggman
Disagree: @Everything12 @Bobsican
 
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Disagree. No qualitive difference, nor reason to believe the 6th dimension is equated to 6D by our wiki standards.

The reason why Low 1-C was accepted does not support any of this evidence being acceptable for achieving a cosmology upgrade.
 
Everything12 said:
Disagree. No qualitive difference, nor reason to believe the 6th dimension is equated to 6D by our wiki standards.

The reason why Low 1-C was accepted does not support any of this evidence being acceptable for achieving a cosmology upgrade.
Click to expand...
No qualitive difference? except for that it's directly stated to be of a higher dimension, and being in a "higher reality" as opposed to the earthly realms, and a literal direct statement of it residing in the 6-th dimension.
 
Something being merely stated to be 6-D isn't sufficient for a qualitative difference, all of those axis have to be infinite, which isn't proven with the evidence in the OP.
 
Bobsican said:
Something being merely stated to be 6-D isn't sufficient for a qualitative difference, all of those axis have to be infinite, which isn't proven with the evidence in the OP.
Click to expand...
Except for that it's literally stated to be of a higher dimension... and is said to be in a "higher reality"..
 
That just supports it being stated to be 6-D, which I'm afraid isn't sufficient to qualify for what this site defines as 6-D.

Why do you think we don't just rate characters that are stated to be 5-D as tier 1, for example? Because there's more to being qualitatively superior in relation to a 4-D structure than a raw number of dimensions, but every axis also being infinite, which in this case is lacking for the "new" 6th one with the given proof.
 
Just because something is called a higher dimensions does not mean we treat it as such without evidence that fits the wiki's standards. Just because something is called the 6th dimensions does not mean we treat is as such without evidence that fits the wiki's standards.

If you don't have evidence of a qualitative difference then we don't treat such statements as valid for how the wiki treats those terms.
 
Except for that the actual creators of the game, stated that they were taking examples of Lovecraftian and Warhammer 40K lore.
And yk, it literally being stated to be of a higher reality.
 
Hellscream said:
Except for that the actual creators of the game, stated that they were taking examples of Lovecraftian and Warhammer 40K lore.
And yk, it literally being stated to be of a higher reality.
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Oh yes, time to upgrade any verse based in certain religions to tier 1, or to assume that all vampires in fiction have inherent powers.
Uh... no, the site doesn't work like that, we need the actual lore directly implemented, just taking concepts from other series (and not even going into detail on that, particularly on what'd matter here) isn't sufficient information to certainly know that's the nature of the cosmology canon-wise.
 
Something too vague that wouldn't sufficiently support 6-D.

While that'd imply it's outside/beyond the 5-D structure, how exactly it actually is that way isn't explained for our purposes sufficiently for the way the site deems a qualitatively superior 6-D structure.
 
Da3ggman said:
What other 6th dimension could they be referring to? It sure as hell isn't them using dimension and universe interchangeably.
Click to expand...
The 6th Dimension in the context was referring to the 6th region of the Holt.

@Hellscream; Dimensions need qualitative superiorities to count for Tier 1. This means a higher dimension should be "more real" than the lower dimension, should view the lower dimension as fiction, view the lower dimension as an infinitesimal structure, etc. Mere mentions of dimensions are not enough.
 
Transcending said:
The 6th Dimension in the context was referring to the 6th region of the Holt.

@Hellscream; Dimensions need qualitative superiorities to count for Tier 1. This means a higher dimension should be "more real" than the lower dimension, should view the lower dimension as fiction, view the lower dimension as an infinitesimal structure, etc. Mere mentions of dimensions are not enough.
Click to expand...
The qualitative superiority is it being stated to be in a higher reality, as opposed to the earthly realm. this literally supports what you said.
 
Transcending said:
The 6th Dimension in the context was referring to the 6th region of the Holt.

@Hellscream; Dimensions need qualitative superiorities to count for Tier 1. This means a higher dimension should be "more real" than the lower dimension, should view the lower dimension as fiction, view the lower dimension as an infinitesimal structure, etc. Mere mentions of dimensions are not enough.
Click to expand...
I played through the game multiple times, never was there any mention of it referring to the 6th region of the Holt.

The holt is simply a location within Urdak, and as the screenshot says, Urdak itself is located in the 6th dimension.
 
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Hellscream said:
I played through the game multiple times, never was there any mention of it referring to the 6th region of the Holt.
Click to expand...
Hellscream said:
The qualitative superiority is it being stated to be in a higher reality, as opposed to the earthly realm. this literally supports what you said.
Click to expand...
A higher reality just means it exists above the normal reality, not that it is qualitatively superior. Hell was stated to be a lower reality, and we know it is not qualitatively inferior to the main reality.

In fact, I would argue Hell is qualitatively above the main reality though the wiki doesn't accept that.
 
What does that screenshot have to do with Urdak being located in the 6th dimension?
It doesn't disprove anything, it says the coordinates of the portal are set to the 6th region of the Equestrian holt, which is simply a location within Urdak.
Region =/= dimension.

Being of a higher reality is the very definition of being qualitatively superior.
Where is it stated that hell is of a lower reality btw?

The beings in Urdak, and the other realities didn't even know of the existence of hell, so how exactly would it be of a "lower reality"?
 
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And how is a mod saying that it isn't a valid argument either way?
Is a mod all knowing perhaps? Or is this mod knowledgeable about DOOM in particular?

In the context of which it's shown, they're literally stated to be of a higher reality, as opposed to the "known universe"

We also have the statement of The Father holding the said DOOM cosmology within his arms, which obviously supports the existence of higher dimensional entities, thus supporting my argument even further.
 
Personally i do find some legit ground for a Possibly 6D rating, however i'm gonna hard disagree with 7D Davoth, since that Hell being extension of him is a metaphor about it being created by his power rather than extension as in Hell being a mere small part of his being, hell the guy didn't even have Large Size and he is pretty much human size character
 
Hellscream said:
And how is a mod saying that it isn't a valid argument either way?
Is a mod all knowing perhaps? Or is this mod knowledgeable about DOOM in particular?

In the context of which it's shown, they're literally stated to be of a higher reality, as opposed to the "known universe"

We also have the statement of The Father holding the said DOOM cosmology within his arms, which obviously supports the existence of higher dimensional entities, thus supporting my argument even further.
Click to expand...
@Everything12 is an high-ranking staff member that has displayed solid knowledge on matters regarding tier 1, and is even listed in the Knowledgeable Members List of that topic, which has higher standards than merely having the will to be listed like the other one, you'd also need staff approval to be able to apply this CRT at all for starters, especially as tier 1 as a whole has high standards as implied in the Editing Rules.

Knowledge about DOOM is not that relevant here, you're the one with the burden of proof to prove a qualitatively superior 6-D to begin with, and we've already gone on such "higher reality" statement not being remotely usable to claim a qualitative superiority.

That's just scaling to the cosmology, which doesn't matter here as the discussion is going for the cosmology's size, not who scales to it.
 
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No, the burden of proof is on you to prove the meaning of a being of a "higher reality" as opposed to the known universe. It literally fits the criteria.
That combined with the statement of it being effectively in a higher dimension. and literally being said to be in the 6th dimension..

We then have literal proof of the creator of the said verse, being a higher dimensional entity that encompasses all the dimensions of that said verse within it's arms. which yet again supports my argument of it being a "higher reality" being valid even further.

Statements of Hell, being unbound by space, time and dimension.

And i literally saw Everything12 say that he's not very knowledgeable about tier 1 stuff in other threads, but then again that's not an argument either way, nor does it debunk any of the claims i made.
 
All in all the only argument is "it's not of a higher reality, the statement isn't true, and it being stated of being in a higher dimension isn't true either, it being in the 6th dimension, yeah that's also not true" i have yet to see one valid argument that debunks anything i've previously said.

This isn't just about one statement, of it being in the 6th dimension, it's also directly stated to be of a higher reality as opposed to the known universe and is stated to be of a higher dimension. I literally don't see what there is to argue about.

hell being ulimited by the boundaries of space, time and dimension
 
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Again, being 6-D isn't sufficient proof to qualify for being qualitatively superior to a 5-D structure that's actually proven to be qualitatively 5-D.

Why do you think we don't grant tier 1 to a character by merely being stated to be 5-D or above? Because every dimensional axis (like width, height and depth for 3D structures) has to be infinite, which can be proven by either such structures having implications in that direction AND being confirmed to be infinite, or the "higher structure" perceiving the lower ones as significantly irrelevant, most commonly fiction.

And the proof given doesn't meet any valid criteria to be qualitatively superior to a structure that's qualitatively 5-D for our purposes (aka, tier 1), and I've already gone on the "higher reality" statement being useless, a structure can be outside a infinite 5-D structure yet not be 6-D itself, which is why we don't make any character that can travel across universes tier 2 or above, for instance.

Also...

Statements of Hell, being unbound by space, time and dimension.
Click to expand...

It seems this is already being used for the 5-D structure, you'd need some statement like that regarding specifically the so-called 6-D structure (and then in relation to the 5-D one) in question to even have an argument, as otherwise we don't even have a proper reason to consider it's qualitatively superior in the same manner to it without making drastic assumptions.
 
Man, stop using the argument of "we don't grant tier 1 to a character that's stated to be 5-d or above" when it just being stated to be in the 6th dimension isn't the argument. we have multiple statements that literally prove that it's of a higher dimension. This literally isn't any proof, nor does it debunk anything i said, only the 6-D statement isn't enough, i agree with that which is where the other 3 examples come in, to prove that higher dimensionality is indeed a thing.

All of this combined with the fact that the creator encompasses the said cosmology > being of a higher dimension therefore supports my claim.
All in all, your arguments are just saying "no" for the sake of saying no.
 
An unused line of dialogue says that the universe of planet Earth resides on the 7th dimension:
Khan Maykr:
"Stop your foolish war now, and I will give you what you desire. I will send you back to you home, the earth world, in the seventh dimension, before the time of the demons. You may live there again as before, no memory of all the suffering you have been through. All your loved ones will be there, waiting to embrace you again, as if you had never left."

So the writers aren't necessarily referring to superiority by the numbering since Urdak exists in a higher dimension.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
An unused line of dialogue says that the universe of planet Earth resides on the 7th dimension:
Khan Maykr:
"Stop your foolish war now, and I will give you what you desire. I will send you back to you home, the earth world, in the seventh dimension, before the time of the demons. You may live there again as before, no memory of all the suffering you have been through. All your loved ones will be there, waiting to embrace you again, as if you had never left."

So the writers aren't necessarily referring to superiority by the numbering since Urdak exists in a higher dimension.
Click to expand...
Broski, this is not a thing, and isn't even in the game i have no clue where you're getting this from.
 
In the game files.


The point isn't about whether it is canon. It serves as an example that something can be called 6th dimension without qualifying for the terminology as meant in the Wiki's tiering system.
 
So let me get this straight, you're using something that isn't even canon, and isn't even in the game as an argument, as opposed to the canon lore that i posted and actual quotes and posts from the codex that are in the game?

And im sorry, but im not gonna take a random youtube video as proof either, when it's not in the game.
 
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Sure, I can bring something completely unrelated to Doom as an illustration, and my point would still be valid; it was already explained to you without an example. What you provided is simply deficient for an upgrade, as they don't explain what 6th dimension mean, or confirm the fulfillment of the requirements of the tiering system.
 
But, can you post me the screenshot of the Khan Maykr saying that quote in the game please?
It not being in the game = it not being canon, therefore not usable as a source of information as opposed to actual quotes and statements that are actually in the game.
 
Stop pulling a strawman, the counterpoint isn't reliant on that being canon or not to begin with, but rather illustrates how your premise is poor.
 
Except for that my premise is based on the actual lore and statements that are in the game, and the only "opposing" argument is something that isn't canon and isn't even in the game.

and yes, the counterpoint is reliant on it as there has been no debunk whatsoever that disproves any of the claims that i made.

So who's pulling the strawman?
 
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