Marvel Negative Zone

[Vasco]

Reed states the Crossroads of Infinity are the Distortion Area,

First scan ain't clear.

Under the analogy that the comics use, the Crossroads of Infinity would be the junction point in the middle of an intersection (It's called the "junction to everywhere, so, yeah): It's one single realm, not a part of any space, specifically, but one that nevertheless links to all of them.

Agreed.

This is to say: The Crossroads of Infinity connect to all realms, but they're also one single, specific place that forms the barrier between all the universes, so "limitless dimensions" being used as a descriptor of a property of this single realm already suggests it is being used in a spatial context (Especially since, as said, Subspace isn't really synonymous with the realms it leads to), and the fact that Reed makes this statement right after stating out loud that he's entered a 4-dimensional realm further strengthens it, as does him using the exact same verbiage ("Juncture of many dimensions") in the context of spatial dimensions in the FF Unlimited scans.

I agree with somethings you said but you also said New info overrides old and the new info doesn't make it seems like it connects infinite spatial dimensions.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

First scan ain't clear.

I hate Imgur.

Anyway: Here is a clearer picture

I agree with somethings you said but you also said New info overrides old and the new info doesn't make it seems like it connects infinite spatial dimensions

What new information is this, exactly? I find this line of thought to be a bit odd because the Crossroads of Infinity being infinite-dimensional and the Crossroads of Infinity connecting alternate realities together isn't really mutually exclusive; both can be true at once. Unless the original statement from Fantastic Four #51 is reframed in a later comic, the above arguments still hold.

 

[LuciferX]

Not the same, also. Given the Crossroads of Infinity were explicitly created by the Sixth Cosmos, as seen here. I assume the second scan you've posted refers to the same Crossroads as the first, although even if it didn't I wouldn't say it matters too much. The Crossroads of Infinity can be both an infinite-dimensional realm and a link to infinite alternate dimensions, those things are obviously not mutually exclusive, especially given that the focus here is on the one specific scan from FF #51, which is from a different comic than this one.

But none of the scans beside FF scan mentioned about infinite higher dimensions (in the way you interprete it, wasn't even an explicit mention of higher dimensions either) rather stated as a junction to infinite alien dimensions in guidebooks, others recent comics and even in old comics which I posted above. (Incredible Hulk #302.)

Again, If reed actually said crossroads consists of infinite higher dimensions, why not upgrading him to High 1-B? You can't say there are "n" number of dimensions exist, if you can't preceive them.

Negative Zone is a parallel universe to main universe

Through this any number of external dimensions can be accessed safely. which mean they are alternate dimensions, nowhere in these two guidebooks mentioned about infinite higher dimensions, just alt dimensions.

Alien dimension composed of anti matter, another description about negative zone in a guidebook, furthermore, it says zone connects to another earth and it supports my interpretation what reed actually said was about alt dimensions in the context.

Sub space may change someone's spatial dimensionalitiy but it has nothing to do with negative zone, it's just the extra dimensional space reed used to access to the zone.

 

[Antvasima]

Ultima, I do not think that repeating all of my earlier listed arguments/points over and over again would be useful, but I would greatly appreciate if you and everybody else here seriously read through and consider all of them, because, yes, as far as I recall every single one of our tier 2 Marvel Comics characters either scale from universal feats or from each other, so we would jump directly from characters with tier 3-C to High 1-B, which is not remotely reasonable for those of us who have read thousands of these stories and want as consistent and reliable statistics as possible.

What is so bad with using the Occam's Razor explanation that most fits with the setting as a whole? Meaning that all of the nexus access points that allow transportation across the entire multiverse (and were rather recently featured in the Fantastic Four story, "Reckoning War"), including the Junction to Everywhere, the M'kraan Crystal, Captain Britain's old lighthouse, the Nexus of Realities, and the Crossroads Dimension, are just higher-dimensional nexuses that intersect with all of the lower universes that they allow transportation across? It seems far more coherent/consistent with the greater setting, and to not completely contradict a very large part of all established general character power levels.

 

[Vasco]

I find this line of thought to be a bit odd because the Crossroads of Infinity being infinite-dimensional and the Crossroads of Infinity connecting alternate realities together isn't really mutually exclusive; both can be true at once.

True, but I'm talking more about the Negative Zone since this thread is more about it.

I replied somethings about it above like the statement about controlling dimensionality and newer statements on Negative Zone and I refuse to accept it as High 1-B.

 

[LuciferX]

I think we can end this.

Fantastic Four #231

Reed says this. (after travelling through sub space)

 

[LuciferX]

Reagrding this scan,
"controlling zone mean controlling dimensionality" "annihiluis controls the zone" then why not upgrading annihilus to High 1B tier?

 

[Antvasima]

I think we can end this.

Fantastic Four #231

Reed says this. (after travelling through sub space)

Thank you. That was my own interpretation as well.

 

[Excellence616]

Reagrding this scan,
"controlling zone mean controlling dimensionality" "annihiluis controls the zone" then why not upgrading annihilus to High 1B tier?

Annihilius get High 1-B=Thor, Hulk, Ray Bill, Silver Surfer, etc High 1-B

 

[LuciferX]

Annihilius get High 1-B=Thor, Hulk, Ray Bill, Silver Surfer, etc High 1-B

Seems legit

 

[Deagonx]

Ok but this doesn't contradict Ultima's point. The Negative Zone has 3 spatial dimensions. It doesn't say it only has 3 spatial dimensions. Both statements can mutually exist and be true

In theory that's true, but I think this would be a very generous way of interpreting the information in front of us. The comic first establishes the concept of alternate universes by saying they all have 3 spatial dimensions and share the natural laws of science. Then the Negative Zone is introduced as a realm which has 3 spatial dimensions but different laws of science. Contextually this very strongly indicates 3 spatial dimensions total.

No Ant, the Negative Zone was stated to possibly have three spatial dimensions. See below.

That's not true, no. The word "may" here isn't being used as possibility, it's being used as concession. For instance: "He may be skilled but he's reckless."

In a sentence like that, may isn't expressing possibility, it's a predicate for the second part of the sentence. The fact of him being skilled is accepted as true, not possibly true.

In the full context these realms are being shown as a contrast to the main universes with uniform 3 spatial dimensions and laws of science. They may have 3 spatial dimensions, but their laws of science are different.

 

[LuciferX]

In a sentence like that, may isn't expressing possibility, it's a predicate for the second part of the sentence.

In the full context these realms are being shown as a contrast to the main universes with uniform 3 spatial dimensions and laws of science. They may have 3 spatial dimensions, but their laws of science are different.

strongly agreed.

 

[Deagonx]

Afterwards, the space around him shifts in some way as he tumbles into the edge of Subspace, and he then finds himself in the "world of limitless dimensions." Given that he makes the statement right after commenting out loud that he is in a 4-dimensional realm (They're continuous), I believe the assertion that it's referring to spatial dimensions does hold weight

Yeah, and that's more or less where our views diverge. I don't think this reasoning is bad, but given that it's called the "Crossroads to Infinity" and due to my skepticism towards a shift from four dimensions to infinite dimensions, I am leaning towards interpreting them as non spatial. Hopefully this can be a venue for a well-reasoned staff vote to settle the matter one way or the other.

 

[Vasco]

Reagrding this scan,
"controlling zone mean controlling dimensionality" "annihiluis controls the zone" then why not upgrading annihilus to High 1B tier?

This scan dosen't even prove anything High 1-B.

The context of this scan saying controlling dimensionality isn't talking about higher dimensions but normal positive universes, the scan didn't even mention anything about extra-dimensional space, Annihilus the supposed ruler of the Negative Zone doesn't even know it contains other universes(yet we are using this scan to push High 1-B in believing it contains infinite higher space-time) then Doctor Doom then said perhaps it doesn't contain them but interfacing all of creation, The Negative Zone would then be a Negative space between all positive matter across all positive realities , A bridge to everywhere.

This scan clearly shows the Negative Zone doesn't contain universes but a junction to all positive universes, Newer info from 2019 support this of Negative Zone not being an extra-dimensional space with a builder calling the Negative Zone a failed pocket universe resting inside an existing one.

Ultima said new information overrides old in the previous thread and in new info it's talking about junction to all positive matter universes not about infinite higher spatial dimensions.

Read this.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah, and that's more or less where our views diverge. I don't think this reasoning is bad, but given that it's called the "Crossroads to Infinity" and due to my skepticism towards a shift from four dimensions to infinite dimensions, I am leaning towards interpreting them as non spatial. Hopefully this can be a venue for a well-reasoned staff vote to settle the matter one way or the other.

Yes, the Marvel Comics nexuses are technically only proven to lead to all other universes across the multiverse if I remember correctly.

 

[LuciferX]

This scan dosen't even prove anything High 1-B.

Read this.

That's what I wanted to show. there are two possibilties.

1. Either Annihilus is High 1-B which is absurd.

2. Or it debunks negative zone being High 1-B.

 

[LuciferX]

Yeah, and that's more or less where our views diverge. I don't think this reasoning is bad, but given that it's called the "Crossroads to Infinity" and due to my skepticism towards a shift from four dimensions to infinite dimensions, I am leaning towards interpreting them as non spatial. Hopefully this can be a venue for a well-reasoned staff vote to settle the matter one way or the other.

What do you think about this scan? From the same run, same guy

 

[Deagonx]

What do you think about this scan? From the same run, same guy

I think it speaks further to the alternate universe interpretation. "It's my theory that sub space could be the gateway to an infinite number of space time continuums "

 

[LuciferX]

Also, I want to point out when reed said about dimensional shifting he said "a second from now it could be six" means it is merely an assumption. It was never happened. Thier spatial dimensionality only shifted downwards not upwards there.

 

[LuciferX]

I think it speaks further to the alternate universe interpretation. "It's my theory that sub space could be the gateway to an infinite number of space time continuums "

It's after he travelled to it btw. after he said a "world of limitless dimensions". It should disprove that vague scan.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

But none of the scans beside FF scan mentioned about infinite higher dimensions (in the way you interprete it, wasn't even an explicit mention of higher dimensions either) rather stated as a junction to infinite alien dimensions in guidebooks, others recent comics and even in old comics which I posted above. (Incredible Hulk #302.)

Again, If reed actually said crossroads consists of infinite higher dimensions, why not upgrading him to High 1-B? You can't say there are "n" number of dimensions exist, if you can't preceive them.

What the guidebooks say doesn't affect my argument because, as I have already said, the focus here is on the statement in FF #51 specifically, and I've already outlined my arguments for why it referring to spatial dimensions isn't really far-fetched at all, and for why the Crossroads of Infinity being an infinite-dimensional realm isn't mutually exclusive with them being a nexus linking all realities. What you are doing, right now, is responding to me saying "Those two things aren't mutually exclusive" by posting evidence for a claim that I never disputed and already said is not mutually exclusive with the stance I'm taking.

Second paragraph is a non-sequitur. By that logic, Reed wouldn't even be able to ascertain that the initial space he found himself in was 4-dimensional at all, or even that he was indeed at a junction to infinite universes. What matters is that his statements are tantamount to narration (As old-timey comicbooks often do) and meant to be taken as factual.

Negative Zone is a parallel universe to main universe

Through this any number of external dimensions can be accessed safely. which mean they are alternate dimensions, nowhere in these two guidebooks mentioned about infinite higher dimensions, just alt dimensions.

Alien dimension composed of anti matter, another description about negative zone in a guidebook, furthermore, it says zone connects to another earth and it supports my interpretation what reed actually said was about alt dimensions in the context.

Sub space may change someone's spatial dimensionalitiy but it has nothing to do with negative zone, it's just the extra dimensional space reed used to access to the zone.

This is already addressed both by the above and by a tidbit from my previous comment (And I comment I've made in the previous thread as well), which you and Ant (Yeah, Ant, I am directly calling you out) seem to keep either missing or ignoring, so, to quote myself:

As for the 3-D Negative Zone stuff: I don't think it matters too much. The focus is on the Crossroads of Infinity, specifically, which we can perfectly treat as a separate realm from the Negative Zone itself. Using these statements to imply that the Crossroads are 3-D doesn't even make sense, anyway, since Reed first accesses them after reaching a 4-dimensional space, and in a later travel to it he comments that it contains 6-D spaces as well. Doesn't really compute.

Furthermore, this doesn't prove an issue if the Negative Zone is treated as separate from the nexus of realities that is accessible from its core, by extension meaning that Doctor Doom's statement in FF #14 was referring to the latter.

Either option you take, the statements regarding the Crossroads are left largely untouched. Even if I was to humor what you say, why wouldn't they? Reed reaches the place after he stumbles through a 4-dimensional realm and in a later venture to it mentions that it contains 6-D spaces, so implying it is 3-D is out of the question as is.

The context of this scan saying controlling dimensionality isn't talking about higher dimensions but normal positive universes

Quoting myself, from the first thread:

Not exactly. Some context from this comic and the one adjacent to it should help here: Basically, the scan above is Doom discussing the prospect of obtaining master control over all space and time, and, more specifically, the two main ingredients he needs to absorb into himself as to accomplish this: Control of the Negative Zone, and, as he mentions, Kang's mastery over time, so, "controlling dimensionality itself" in context is referring to full dominion over space (Obviously related to geometrical dimensions) that he'd obtain by controlling the Negative Zone. Here's an album of relevant scans that I compiled for clarity's sake.

This is, of course, not mutually exclusive with the mention of alternate universes. Dimensionality is a property of the universe, and that the Crossroads of Infinity are already demonstrated to have close ties to dimensionality (As shown by the Fantastic Four Unlimited scans) should seal the deal for that here.

So, "controlling dimensionality itself" in-context is Doom saying controlling the Negative Zone is having full control over space, which when added to control over time will give him full control over spacetime. Some of this falls under the "not mutually exclusive" I keep mentioning, but the quote above already says as much.

Reagrding this scan,
"controlling zone mean controlling dimensionality" "annihiluis controls the zone" then why not upgrading annihilus to High 1B tier?

The control over dimensionality, in this case, is talking about what he'd be able to do by harnessing power from the Cosmic Control Rod, Doom's use of which that storyline portrays as above anything Annihilus himself is able to do. For example, when he gets both the Control Rod and control over time, he obtains "omnipotent power" (Referring to how he now has full domain over all space and time, shown above) and overpowers the Watcher with an energy blast.

Yeah, and that's more or less where our views diverge. I don't think this reasoning is bad, but given that it's called the "Crossroads to Infinity" and due to my skepticism towards a shift from four dimensions to infinite dimensions, I am leaning towards interpreting them as non spatial. Hopefully this can be a venue for a well-reasoned staff vote to settle the matter one way or the other.

What is the reason behind this skepticism of yours, exactly? I don't think it's something that lacks precedent, given I've already shown you scans depicting shifts in dimensionality occuring when entering the Crossroads.
______________________________________________

That aside, something that may or may not be derailing, so, just putting it out here as pieces of information I found, for further notice: I read Ghost Rider 2099. The context of the scan mentioning infinite-dimensional space isn't much that couldn't already be gathered from the scan alone: There's these hyper-advanced magical AIs called the Ghostworks, and what they want is to basically postpone the collapse of human civilization and technology (Since they're dependent on it to exist) for as long as possible until they're able to transcend beyond their current state and reach their final iteration, which is what this statement refers to. From what I could gather, there really is nothing in the storyline itself that suggests their goals are impossible to accomplish, or anything that'd cast doubt into the statement they make.

By the way, I'd also like to ask what our treatment of the Marvel UK print is, cosmology-wise, since one comic, Children of the Voyager (1993, so, from around the time Tom DeFalco was Marvel's Editor-in-Chief), specifically, has some descriptions that are of interest to the topic here (Infinite-dimensional Marvel, that is)

So, basically, in Issue #3, we have a mention of a thing called "the Cascade," where "infinite dimensions converge." Seems to be referring to parallel realms without more context, but in Issue #4, the "Voyager" mentioned in the title of the comic shows up, and he wants the main character's soul, which he says is because it will serve as fuel for his ascent into "the Cascade of dimensions above." When the protagonist asks what he means by that, another character explains that he's talking about is "The... next plane up, Heaven. Whatever you want to call it."

Then at the end of it story, he finally gives his soul to the Voyager, and we get a description of the latter's ascension into the aforementioned Cascade:

"...It passes Celestial Pagodas whose balconies and hanging gardens drip sumptuous fruit earthward... It passes ever-increasing spheres and sedimentary layers of heavens that encrust the tiny shell of this universe... It passes oceans of higher dimensions until, as my split second ability to comprehend what I am seeing contracts... The Voyager bursts, scattering a chorus of voices."

So, it seems the infinite dimensions that the "Cascade" here comprehends are indeed higher dimensions. They're even described as "layers of heavens that encrust the tiny shell of this universe," and their amount is described as "ever-increasing," which supports the first scan saying that the Cascade is where infinite dimensions converge, and shows (Alongside it being described as "the Cascade of dimensions") that said dimensions are indeed the layers that the Voyager pierces through on his way to it.

For reference's sake I'd also like to point out that this story has been referenced relatively recently, in the 2008 Marvel Handbook

 

[Deagonx]

What is the reason behind this skepticism of yours, exactly? I don't think it's something that lacks precedent, given I've already shown you scans depicting shifts in dimensionality occuring when entering the Crossroads.

It's not the shift in dimensionality that I regard with skepticism, rather, it's the shift in the peak. In the scans where they shift dimensionality, he notes that they might even end up six-dimensional. Six to infinity is a big gap. Is it possible? Yes, I don't deny the possibility of it, but I regard it with skepticism.

Second, the visual artwork does not emphasize this the way they did earlier when the FF is shifting dimensionality. The art of the actual location is abstract, yes, but in the scans where they actually shift dimensionality the art style visuals of the characters themselves change drastically. See here. When Reed arrives at the Crossroads, the realm itself is quite abstract, but he looks quite normal.

Third, I can't help but feel that the alternative option (that the limitless dimensions are universes) is a very convenient fit with the title and function of this area. It is called a "crossroads to infinity", a "junction to everywhere" both of which address it's nature as an access point to other worlds. The first phrase "a world of limitless dimensions" can fit very easily into this convention, so I am strongly leaning towards interpreting this set of descriptions as all referring to the same characteristic, rather than two of them referring to it as an access point and one of them bringing up infinite dimensionality.

 

[Comicgyal]

Ultima makes sense as usual.

 

[Vasco]

So, "controlling dimensionality itself" in-context is Doom saying controlling the Negative Zone is having full control over space, which when added to control over time will give him full control over spacetime. Some of this falls under the "not mutually exclusive" I keep mentioning, but the quote above already says as much.

The context of this scan saying controlling dimensionality isn't talking about higher dimensions but normal positive universes, the scan didn't even mention anything about extra-dimensional space, Annihilus the supposed ruler of the Negative Zone doesn't even know it contains other universes(yet we are using this scan to push High 1-B in believing it contains infinite higher space-time) then Doctor Doom then said perhaps it doesn't contain them but interfacing all of creation, The Negative Zone would then be a Negative space between all positive matter across all positive realities , A bridge to everywhere.

This scan clearly shows the Negative Zone doesn't contain universes but a junction to all positive universes, Newer info from 2019 support this of Negative Zone not being an extra-dimensional space with a builder calling the Negative Zone a failed pocket universe resting inside an existing one.

Ultima said new information overrides old in the previous thread and in new info it's talking about junction to all positive matter universes not about infinite higher spatial dimensions.

I already had a reply to it, and you aren't interpreting it according to the scan, the dimensions in that scan aren't even talking of infinite higher spatial dimensions.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, given that you are calling me out, as I have tried to explain earlier, I do not mind if any of the multiversal transportation nexuses are finally decided to be either 6-dimensional or infinite-dimensional, and scale to the Marvel multiverse as a whole, as that seems to make sufficiently coherent sense with the greater context of Marvel Comics stories in general.

What I mind is the interpretation that the multiversal transportation nexuses are completely contained and confined within single universes, whether these are more regular types of universes or ones with slightly diverging laws of physics, such as the Negative Zone, both because it doesn't make any internal logical sense that something that reaches across the Marvel multiverse is also confined within comparatively tiny parts of it, and mathematics also allow higher-dimensional and lower-dimensional space to intersect as far as I recall from my old studies; as well as the very extreme automatically resulting widespread statistics upgrades for characters that have no basis being placed on that level. As much as I love She-Hulk, making her and all other comparable characters High 1-B doesn't make any sense.

Also, given the sheer extreme upgrades that this revision would result in for so many characters, and that our rules demand a high degree of logical consistency for such changes for Marvel Comics, given that it may be the most inconsistent major popular fictional setting ever in this regard, or at least the one I am aware of, and extraordinary claims require more extraordinary/explicit and self-evident evidence, according to our more general revision conventions, both of these issues need to be taken into account here. Meaning a very high degree of long-lasting consistency and consequence analysis needs to be applied before we upgrade She-Hulk and all comparable characters to High 1-B.

As for Marvel UK, it ceased publishing during the early 1990s as far as I recall, which is the era of Tom DeFalco's incarnation of Marvel Comics and Doctor Strange #21 that we mentioned above, long before the heavy changes in characterisation, thematics and cosmology that happened during Joe Quesada's era.

I will also assemble quotes from additional points that I have made in other posts below. I would greatly appreciate if you seriously consider all of them.

 

[Vasco]

, basically, in Issue #3, we have a mention of a thing called "the Cascade," where "infinite dimensions converge." Seems to be referring to parallel realms without more context, but in Issue #4, the "Voyager" mentioned in the title of the comic shows up, and he wants the main character's soul, which he says is because it will serve as fuel for his ascent into "the Cascade of dimensions above." When the protagonist asks what he means by that, another character explains that he's talking about is "The... next plane up, Heaven. Whatever you want to call it."

Then at the end of it story, he finally gives his soul to the Voyager, and we get a description of the latter's ascension into the aforementioned Cascade:

"...It passes Celestial Pagodas whose balconies and hanging gardens drip sumptuous fruit earthward... It passes ever-increasing spheres and sedimentary layers of heavens that encrust the tiny shell of this universe... It passes oceans of higher dimensions until, as my split second ability to comprehend what I am seeing contracts... The Voyager bursts, scattering a chorus of voices."

So, it seems the infinite dimensions that the "Cascade" here comprehends are indeed higher dimensions. They're even described as "layers of heavens that encrust the tiny shell of this universe," and their amount is described as "ever-increasing," which supports the first scan saying that the Cascade is where infinite dimensions converge, and shows (Alongside it being described as "the Cascade of dimensions") that said dimensions are indeed the layers that the Voyager pierces through on his way to it.

For reference's sake I'd also like to point out that this story has been referenced relatively recently, in the 2008 Marvel Handbook

Do these scans have anything to do with Negative Zone?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, given that the Negative Zone has prominently been established as being a regular-sized universe within Marvel Comics, as you can all, for example, see within the following comic books from the extremely prominent original "Annihilation" event:

read comic online.li/Comic/Thanos/Issue-7?id=55153

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation/Issue-1?id=39409

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation-Prologue/Full?id=75093

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation-Heralds-Of-Galactus/Issue-2?id=78094

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation-The-Nova-Corps-Files/Full?id=83445

Also, the scans that are the main foundation for our current Marvel Comics cosmology scaling explicitly state that it is a 3-dimensional universe, so if anybody wants to throw away this evidence, they have to throw away the best evidence for an infinite-dimensional Marvel multiverse as well.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence2.jpg

In addition, movement within the Negative Zone, along with all of its inhabitants, has also been consistently portrayed as 3-dimensional since the 1960s.

As far as I am aware, mathematics allow higher-dimensional structures, such as nexuses, to intersect with lower-dimensional ones, and this fits with that these nexuses all allow transportation across the entire multiverse, rather than being confined to a single universe.

And given that the Negative Zone and all other regular Marvel universes have been established to be of comparative size, and all of our tier 2 Marvel Comics characters (including many regular superheroes and supervillains) are scaled from universe-destroying or creating-feats, all such tier 2 characters would have to be upgraded to tier High 1-B as a consequence, which would not be remotely reliable to say the least.

Also, such an enormously extreme change in Marvel Comics' cosmology must be extremely consistently adapted and officially endorsed by Marvel's editorial department, given how completely incoherent the setting as a whole is due to its around 84 years of history, several hundred independent writers, and around 100,000 comic book stories.

As I have mentioned repeatedly previously, including in our official rules for Marvel and DC Comics, we need a high degree of consistency for scaling these characters and settings, given how insanely inconsistent they inherently are, Marvel Comics in particular.

As such, I think that we should simply use Occam's razor, and consider the nexuses to simply intersect with lower 4-dimensional universes such as the Negative Zone; and definitely not that we should irresponsibly hand out enormous and massively destructive all-encompassing High 1-B upgrades to a large part of our featured Marvel Comics characters without taking into account that this verse is not remotely as consistent as ones penned by a single author across a single ongoing storyline.

I really hope that I can rely on our staff to try to be responsible in this regard.

Thank you, but I am not suggesting a downgrade. I am fine with scaling an infinite-dimensional nexus to the Marvel multiverse, if it is deemed reliable, just not to every single currently Low 2-C universe.

See here:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Doctor_Strange,_Sorcerer_Supreme_Vol_1_21

https://imgur.io/gallery/cdaVekB

Well, if he wants to override the main and most explicit foundation for our current scaling, by turning Doctor Strange #21 from 1990 invalid, that will also cause High 1-B or higher Marvel Comics to have a far less stable ground to stand on.

The main points are that it has consistently only been shown to work in terms of regular 3-dimensional movement physics for 99.99% of its entire history, that the scans that are the main foundation for our Marvel Comics scaling explicitly state that it is 3-dimensional, that it was firmly established as being a regular-sized universe during the very prominent Annihilation event, that it makes much better sense that a nexus for multiversal transportation is not truly contained within it, just accessible from it, and that any changes to its scaling would automatically translate to insanely inflated and unreliable statistics for ALL higher-tiered regular superheroes and supervillains.

Yes, but they were talking about the multiverse in that context, not individual universes such as the Negative Zone. They were stated to be 3-dimensional.

My intended point was that Marvel Comics is insanely inconsistent to an as far as I am aware unmatched degree in prominent fictional settings, and as such even our rules state that we need to strive for a high degree of rational consistency when evaluating any scaling for it.

I think that you should agree that upgrading a large part of our featured regular superheroes and supervillains from tier Low 2-C or 2-C to infinite degrees of infinity (High 1-B) seems extremely exaggerated, no?

Here are some examples:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Antvasima/DPL#Marvel_Tier_2

The Negative Zone was explicitly stated outright to be 3-dimensional in that set of scans, whereas the entirety of the Marvel multiverse was stated to be infinite-dimensional in contrast, and unlike what the alternative interpretation hinges on, this was very straightforward and not dependent on speculation or interpretation.

To a degree, but the main changes were that Jonathan Hickman retconned the entire multiverse into just being a finite set of alternate 4-dimensional universes, as it was possible to destroy completely by colliding them into each other, and that Al Ewing introduced a few new higher realms qualitatively beyond that scale afterwards, so the retconned Marvel multiverse does not seem to exceed tier High 1-C as far as I am aware, whereas the old structure from before when Joe Quesada took charge of Marvel Comics' editorial department legitimately was infinite-dimensional, although I do not know for certain to which degree.

Ultima, I do not think that repeating all of my earlier listed arguments/points over and over again would be useful, but I would greatly appreciate if you and everybody else here seriously read through and consider all of them, because, yes, as far as I recall every single one of our tier 2 Marvel Comics characters either scale from universal feats or from each other, so we would jump directly from characters with tier 3-C to High 1-B, which is not remotely reasonable for those of us who have read thousands of these stories and want as consistent and reliable statistics as possible.

What is so bad with using the Occam's Razor explanation that most fits with the setting as a whole? Meaning that all of the nexus access points that allow transportation across the entire multiverse (and were rather recently featured in the Fantastic Four story, "Reckoning War"), including the Junction to Everywhere, the M'kraan Crystal, Captain Britain's old lighthouse, the Nexus of Realities, and the Crossroads Dimension, are just higher-dimensional nexuses that intersect with all of the lower universes that they allow transportation across? It seems far more coherent/consistent with the greater setting, and to not completely contradict a very large part of all established general character power levels.

I stated that Marvel Comics is arguably the most insanely inconsistent major fictional setting in existence, or at least the one that I am aware of, and as such our rules for it even clarify that we need a lot of consistency for revising it, and our general wiki standards are that extraordinary claims (which include very extreme upgrades) also require extraordinary (very explicit and self-evident) evidence.

As such, you need to take both of those issues into account for reliable Marvel Comics scaling, not rely on one or a few diffuse statements that require personal speculation and interpretation.

Well, I much prefer as much consistency as possible, but given that you are the ones who are trying to argue for an absolutely enormous and wantonly destructive upgrade, you are also the ones who have to prove an ongoing consistency as a basis for it, whereas the opposition, who only want to use the by far more plausible currently used interpretation, only have to poke holes in your theories.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am inclined to agree more with Deagonx and Antvasima; if Negative Zone is High 1-B it's going to get real messy with the scaling.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the support. I greatly appreciate it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It's not the shift in dimensionality that I regard with skepticism, rather, it's the shift in the peak. In the scans where they shift dimensionality, he notes that they might even end up six-dimensional. Six to infinity is a big gap. Is it possible? Yes, I don't deny the possibility of it, but I regard it with skepticism.

I wouldn't say Fantastic Four Unlimited necessarily presents 6-dimensional space as the peak of the space, given the scans just present Reed remarking that it is one of the possible states they could morph into while staying in there. By contrast, Fantastic Four #51 depicts him falling towards the very edge of Subspace, seeing the Crossroads in their entirety rather than just specific dimensional levels in which it can be experienced (One such level being the 4-D realm he passes through on the way there), evidenced by how he only names the place for what it is once he reaches that point.

Second, the visual artwork does not emphasize this the way they did earlier when the FF is shifting dimensionality. The art of the actual location is abstract, yes, but in the scans where they actually shift dimensionality the art style visuals of the characters themselves change drastically. See here. When Reed arrives at the Crossroads, the realm itself is quite abstract, but he looks quite normal.

I don't think of that as particularly relevant, given FF #51 does explicitly say Reed is stepping on higher-dimensional ground from the start anyway (4-dimensional ground, initially), and he looks normal even as that happens. My wager is that different authors were just chosing to emphasize the effects of the Crossroads differently.

Third, I can't help but feel that the alternative option (that the limitless dimensions are universes) is a very convenient fit with the title and function of this area. It is called a "crossroads to infinity", a "junction to everywhere" both of which address it's nature as an access point to other worlds. The first phrase "a world of limitless dimensions" can fit very easily into this convention, so I am strongly leaning towards interpreting this set of descriptions as all referring to the same characteristic, rather than two of them referring to it as an access point and one of them bringing up infinite dimensionality.

That falls under the point I've made above, namely that the Crossroads of Infinity are a singular location, akin to the junction point of an intersection: It's not any of the roads around it, in particular, but from it you are able to step into any of them, which is explicitly confirmed in the scan from Fantastic Four #231, where Reed says Subspace "is and isn't" part of the realms that it touches. It is, in the sense it leads to them, and it isn't, in the sense that it is also its own separate location. The space between universes, specifically.

I already had a reply to it, and you aren't interpreting it according to the scan, the dimensions in that scan aren't even talking of infinite higher spatial dimensions.

You didn't reply to it, no, you replied to the paragraphs in the OP, and everything I said above answers what you've just quoted. Moreover I never said the statement was proof of infinite spatial dimensions: I used the scan as demonstration that spatial dimensions are a pertinent theme with regards to the Crossroads of Infinity, as support for the other scans I've shown, not the main meat of the point. Lastly, refer to the above: I keep saying those things aren't really mutually exclusive but nobody seems to listen.

What I mind is the interpretation that the multiversal transportation nexuses are completely contained and confined within single universes, whether these are more regular types of universes or ones with slightly diverging laws of physics, such as the Negative Zone, both because it doesn't make any internal logical sense that something that reaches across the Marvel multiverse is also confined within comparatively tiny parts of it, and mathematics also allow higher-dimensional and lower-dimensional space to intersect as far as I recall from my old studies; as well as the very extreme widespread statistics upgrades for characters that have no basis being placed on that level. As much as I love She-Hulk, making her and all other comparable characters High 1-B doesn't make any sense.

Right, so, to repeat myself one last time: I am not pushing for a High 1-B Negative Zone, but for the Crossroads of Infinity being High 1-B. The fact I keep having to reiterate myself tells me that you seem to be just speedreading the thread in a panic while not even bothering to consider what the opposition has to say (Note here that Alonik also expressed he doesn't mind attributing High 1-B entirely to the Crossroads in the previous thread), and quite frankly that gets cumbersome. I suggest you drop that from here and onwards.

Do these scans have anything to do with Negative Zone?

No, but they do tie into the larger topic of a High 1-B tiering for Marvel, which this thread is ultimately meant to be a sub-discussion of. Hence why I said they are there "for further notice." Just bookmarking relevant scans for the sake of potential new developments later on.

...And for the matter I forgot to link the scans mentioning the infinitely ascending dimensions from Children of the Voyager, up there, sorry. Here it is.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I am inclined to agree more with Deagonx and Antvasima; if Negative Zone is High 1-B it's going to get real messy with the scaling.

Right, so, to repeat myself one last time: I am not pushing for a High 1-B Negative Zone, but for the Crossroads of Infinity being High 1-B

 

[Antvasima]

Right, so, to repeat myself one last time: I am not pushing for a High 1-B Negative Zone, but for the Crossroads of Infinity being High 1-B. The fact I keep having to reiterate myself tells me that you seem to be just speedreading the thread in a panic while not even bothering to consider what the opposition has to say (Note here that Alonik also expressed he doesn't mind attributing High 1-B entirely to the Crossroads in the previous thread), and quite frankly that gets cumbersome. I suggest you drop that from here and onwards.

Well, the discussion in our previous thread regarding this seemed to be heavily focused on this issue, so I thought that the same issue was supported here. I just don't want High 1-B regular universes (including the Negative Zone), that is all. The resulting complete nonsense-scaling would have completely destroyed the reliability of our Marvel Comics pages and made our entire wiki far more of a laughingstock than it is currently.

I do not particularly mind a High 1-B Marvel multiverse, although it doesn't particularly seem to fit well with the most recent Jonathan Hickman/Al Ewing version of its cosmology.

I greatly apologise for the misunderstanding then.

 

[Antvasima]

However, just to make certain, you do agree with me regarding that the Crossroads of Infinity only scale to the Marvel multiverse and not to the Negative Zone then?

 

[Deagonx]

I wouldn't say Fantastic Four Unlimited necessarily presents 6-dimensional space as the peak of the space

I agree, I just meant in the sense that that was the highest dimensionality that prefaced this alleged shift to infinite dimensionality.

I don't think of that as particularly relevant

I agree it's lower on the bar of why I am leaning against it, but felt it was worth noting.

That falls under the point I've made above, namely that the Crossroads of Infinity are a singular location, akin to the junction point of an intersection: It's not any of the roads around it, in particular, but from it you are able to step into any of them, which is explicitly confirmed in the scan from Fantastic Four #231, where Reed says Subspace "is and isn't" part of the realms that it touches. It is, in the sense it leads to them, and it isn't, in the sense that it is also its own separate location. The space between universes, specifically.

Right, I agree. I'm saying that this quality could also be described as a "world of limitless dimensions" as well as a "junction to everywhere" and "crossroads to infinity" so in my view it's more intuitive to regard all three phrases, stated by the same character about the same place in the same scan, as referring to the same characteristic, rather than 1 of them referring to spatial dimensionality.

 

[Antvasima]

I sent Ultima an apology message in private earlier.

The preceding thread seemed to greatly emphasize that the Negative Zone should be tiered based on the scale of the nexus that is accessible from it, so I mistakenly thought that Ultima also supported this view.

 

[LuciferX]

@Ultima_Reality You dismissed this.

I think we can end this.

Fantastic Four #231

Reed says this. (after travelling through sub space)

 

[LuciferX]

So, "controlling dimensionality itself" in-context is Doom saying controlling the Negative Zone is having full control over space, which when added to control over time will give him full control over spacetime. Some of this falls under the "not mutually exclusive" I keep mentioning, but the quote above already says as much.

Then why not upgrading Annihilus to High 1-B? He can control the zone/dimensionality?

That aside, something that may or may not be derailing, so, just putting it out here as pieces of information I found, for further notice: I read Ghost Rider 2099. The context of the scan mentioning infinite-dimensional space isn't much that couldn't already be gathered from the scan alone: There's these hyper-advanced magical AIs called the Ghostworks, and what they want is to basically postpone the collapse of human civilization and technology (Since they're dependent on it to exist) for as long as possible until they're able to transcend beyond their current state and reach their final iteration, which is what this statement refers to. From what I could gather, there really is nothing in the storyline itself that suggests their goals are impossible to accomplish, or anything that'd cast doubt into the statement they make.

Yeah. It's a bit vague scan.

By the way, I'd also like to ask what our treatment of the Marvel UK print is, cosmology-wise, since one comic, Children of the Voyager (1993, so, from around the time Tom DeFalco was Marvel's Editor-in-Chief), specifically, has some descriptions that are of interest to the topic here (Infinite-dimensional Marvel, that is)

So, basically, in Issue #3, we have a mention of a thing called "the Cascade," where "infinite dimensions converge." Seems to be referring to parallel realms without more context, but in Issue #4, the "Voyager" mentioned in the title of the comic shows up, and he wants the main character's soul, which he says is because it will serve as fuel for his ascent into "the Cascade of dimensions above." When the protagonist asks what he means by that, another character explains that he's talking about is "The... next plane up, Heaven. Whatever you want to call it."

Then at the end of it story, he finally gives his soul to the Voyager, and we get a description of the latter's ascension into the aforementioned Cascade:

"...It passes Celestial Pagodas whose balconies and hanging gardens drip sumptuous fruit earthward... It passes ever-increasing spheres and sedimentary layers of heavens that encrust the tiny shell of this universe... It passes oceans of higher dimensions until, as my split second ability to comprehend what I am seeing contracts... The Voyager bursts, scattering a chorus of voices."

So, it seems the infinite dimensions that the "Cascade" here comprehends are indeed higher dimensions. They're even described as "layers of heavens that encrust the tiny shell of this universe," and their amount is described as "ever-increasing," which supports the first scan saying that the Cascade is where infinite dimensions converge, and shows (Alongside it being described as "the Cascade of dimensions") that said dimensions are indeed the layers that the Voyager pierces through on his way to it.

For reference's sake I'd also like to point out that this story has been referenced relatively recently, in the 2008 Marvel Handbook

"Infinite dimensions converge" mean meet at one place. so It's not about infinite higher dimensions in the first place. don't try to justify it with some random scans because it's talking about parallel dimensions in the first place.

 

[Alonik]

@Ultima_Reality You dismissed this.

Not sure where he dismessed this, since in the previous thread I had already given support about the space-time continuum that subspace connects are infinite higher dimensions. Quoting what I had argued before because this is a staff thread and should be voted:

• Quasar explaining that the difference between higher dimensions of the subspace (hyperspace) is the same as seeing the infinite of a lower dimension as 0. - Quasar Vol 1 #3 - November 01, 1989 (Mark Gruenwald)
• He later goes on to explain about the transfinite nature of the Multiverse, where the transfinite is greater than infinity. - Quasar Vol 1 #25 - August, 1991 (Mark Gruenwald)

And before anything else, yes subspace is just another name for hyperspace. You might have to read comics like Captain Marvel where they changed the name from subspace to hyperspace.

 

[LuciferX]

Not sure where he dismessed this, since in the previous thread I had already given support about the space-time continuum that subspace connects are infinite higher dimensions. Quoting what I had argued before because this is a staff thread and should be voted:

The way he said about it, implies there are alternative dimensions/space times. It's the same reed in same comic run. Nowhere he said about infinite higher dimensions again. I can backup my claim via several scans. but can you? (instead of cherry picking and wrong interpretations)

I only want an explicit mention of infinite higher dimensions, not some vague scan with flowery language.

 

[Excellence616]

Then why not upgrading Annihilus to High 1-B? He can control the zone/dimensionality..

Via scaling

Annihilius get High 1-B=Thor, Hulk, Ray Bill, Silver Surfer, etc High 1-B