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Regarding Flashes durability

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Da_Lunge_Fish said:
And I'm not talking about feats, I'm talking about how he is treated in-story - a clear cosmic threat. And in the context of Bart Allen, he's absorbing, you know, an extra dimensional universe into himself just to fight the guy. Pretty sure he's treated as very impressive here.
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Cosmic threat means literally anything, doesn't excuse that his tier 4 feats outweigh his tier 2 feats by like 95% at least. You don't see an issue with that? Really? And I wouldn't call most of his feats impressive. Reality punch? Sure. Fighting two supes? Also, sure. Every other feat? Nah. My man was getting embarrassed


I will read the sourced comic tomorrow or in the weekend.
 
Thank you for helping out, Confluctor.
 
Confluctor said:
Cosmic threat means literally anything, doesn't excuse that his tier 4 feats outweigh his tier 2 feats by like 95% at least. You don't see an issue with that? Really? And I wouldn't call most of his feats impressive. Reality punch? Sure. Fighting two supes? Also, sure. Every other feat? Nah. My man was getting embarrassed


I will read the sourced comic tomorrow or in the weekend.
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I know he is pretty inconsistent, but in the instance where the flashes formulate a plan to stop him, he is treated as something far beyond some fodder herald villain. I feel like they treated him as a tier 2 threat, considering Flashes can generally equally fight and even defeat normal heralds (Wonder Woman, GLs, etc), while for Prime, they needed to absorb the entire Speed Force
P.S. Wanna apologize if I acted rude before in the thread
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
he is treated as something far beyond some fodder herald villain
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Mate, fricking black Adam is considered above herald levels sometimes. That doesn't make him tier 2. There are layers into 4B. For the record, DC heralds scale to like 1 kilofoe and the difference between the next tier is like a few billion times at least.


Da_Lunge_Fish said:
feel like they treated him as a tier 2
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Did they really? Aside from reality punch and fighting og supes, SBP didn't get another tier 2 feats until he first met Monarch.


Da_Lunge_Fish said:
they needed to absorb the entire Speed Force
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I will reread the flash issue later, busy with work, but again, even if this absorbing speed force is a supposed to be ap upgrade, nothing here implies tier 2 physical amp tho. Because with the scans I sent, SBP was almost equal to some really really low end 4Bs of DC.

And as mentioned earlier, the gap between 4B and 4A is massive, billions of times, let alone 4B and 2C (at least a hundred universes).



Da_Lunge_Fish said:
Wanna apologize if I acted rude before in the thread
Click to expand...
Same.
 
Confluctor said:
Mate, fricking black Adam is considered above herald levels sometimes. That doesn't make him tier 2. There are layers into 4B. For the record, DC heralds scale to like 1 kilofoe and the difference between the next tier is like a few billion times at least.



Did they really? Aside from reality punch and fighting og supes, SBP didn't get another tier 2 feats until he first met Monarch.



I will reread the flash issue later, busy with work, but again, even if this absorbing speed force is a supposed to be ap upgrade, nothing here implies tier 2 physical amp tho. Because with the scans I sent, SBP was almost equal to some really really low end 4Bs of DC.

And as mentioned earlier, the gap between 4B and 4A is massive, billions of times, let alone 4B and 2C (at least a hundred universes).




Same.
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Well, to be entirely honest, Speed Force is a 2-A structure by itself. If you absorb it and it gives you a clear physical amp, why would it be anything other than 2-A. Also, just a note, if we decide to remove this, we won't just be removing 2-A durability, but the 2-A rating by itself
 
First of all, speed force being a 2A structure is... Well, pretty wrong. Its much higher than that. But that's another topic entirely, so I will leave that for another time.

Secondly, as I said earlier, there is no indication that the absorption they talked about was anything physical. And ofc, even if it was, this is about their durability, which they have 0 feats of. We can't use Bart and SPB, as I mentioned a few times before, is inconsistent and Bart's case is different - which still doesn't involve physical amp like their profiles suggests right now. The issue is, we are assuming their ED is comparable to their physicals and, as such, also comparable to their durability.

Regarding absorption of their entire thing being 2A, you know, it sounds good on paper, but it doesn't have the feats to back it up. We are currently going based on one assumption, when other assumptions can also be made.


I don't have much time to read the Bart comic rn, busy with work, so will get to that as soon as possible.
 
Confluctor said:
First of all, speed force being a 2A structure is... Well, pretty wrong. Its much higher than that. But that's another topic entirely, so I will leave that for another time.

Secondly, as I said earlier, there is no indication that the absorption they talked about was anything physical. And ofc, even if it was, this is about their durability, which they have 0 feats of. We can't use Bart and SPB, as I mentioned a few times before, is inconsistent and Bart's case is different - which still doesn't involve physical amp like their profiles suggests right now. The issue is, we are assuming their ED is comparable to their physicals and, as such, also comparable to their durability.

Regarding absorption of their entire thing being 2A, you know, it sounds good on paper, but it doesn't have the feats to back it up. We are currently going based on one assumption, when other assumptions can also be made.


I don't have much time to read the Bart comic rn, busy with work, so will get to that as soon as possible.
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Are you implying it wasn't a physical amp at all, or that we don't know how much he was amped?
And just a note, we already ARE using SBP for Bart. So you gotta create another CRT to remove that
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
Are you implying it wasn't a physical amp at all, or that we don't know how much he was amped?
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Both, essentially. For Barry, we, 1, don't know if it was a physical amp - which there is nothing that implies it, and 2, even if it was, we don't know just how big of an amp was it.
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
And just a note, we already ARE using SBP for Bart. So you gotta create another CRT to remove that
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Bart doesn't have a file on the wiki tho?


Also, I need to revise SBP. His page is really bad. My man's page is dryer than a desert. And he is got low 1c-ish potential
 
Confluctor said:
Both, essentially. For Barry, we, 1, don't know if it was a physical amp - which there is nothing that implies it, and 2, even if it was, we don't know just how big of an amp was it.

Bart doesn't have a file on the wiki tho?


Also, I need to revise SBP. His page is really bad. My man's page is dryer than a desert. And he is got low 1c-ish potential
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It's on Wally's and Barry's pages
 
Ah. I see it now. That has issues. But definitely something that can be tackled here actually
 
I would need to find replacement scans and feats, and that might take a bit of time. I could look into it in the weekend if I have no work
 
Confluctor seems to make sense to me above. Thank you both for helping out.
 


It's a speed feat. They were stuck on a different earth and the only way to reach superboy was to absorb speed force into himself and then become fast enough to go to the main universe and reach superboy. This does seem like a nice speed upgrade for superbly prime tho ngl. I should tackle that in my profile overhaul of his
 
So what should we do here exactly?
 
Well, if anyone has any feats of their tier 2 and above durability, it should be brought forward. If not, then just remove it completely. There is no proof to say their ap and Dura is comparable.
 
Confluctor said:
Well, if anyone has any feats of their tier 2 and above durability, it should be brought forward. If not, then just remove it completely. There is no proof to say their ap and Dura is comparable.
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Well, it is said that absorbing it can kill Wally, which implies it puts a strain on their bodies
 
Nope. You can die to tier 10 attack aka poison or mind hax or biological manip. Etc etc

Plus strain simply can't be physically. What if it's more of a mental thing? Sorta like what happened to Bart in flashpoint and whatnot.
 
Confluctor said:
Nope. You can die to tier 10 attack aka poison or mind hax or biological manip. Etc etc

Plus strain simply can't be physically. What if it's more of a mental thing? Sorta like what happened to Bart in flashpoint and whatnot.
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Pretty sure for Barry anti life was also ******* him up
 
Confluctor said:
Well, if anyone has any feats of their tier 2 and above durability, it should be brought forward. If not, then just remove it completely. There is no proof to say their ap and Dura is comparable.
Click to expand...
Well, I suppose that your suggestion can probably be applied as long as you have sufficient staff support.
 
Since dura and SS stuff are pretty much agreed upon, let's talk about ap

Low Multiverse level at Emotional Peaks (In a rage, Wally defeated an injured alternate history version of the Anti-Monitor[16])
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Weakened AM

At least Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+ with the entire Speed Force (Should be comparable to Bart Allen who volunteered to absorb the entire Speed Force so that he would be fast enough to stop Superboy-Prime[17]
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4-B
and Barry Allen who assisted Pandora in merging the New Earth, Wildstorm, and Vertigo universes.[18]
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ED sort of thing. Well... maybe not ED, but definitely nothing related to physicals
The Speed force exists in every dimension, universe, and era.[19])
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Same as above
 
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How was the Anti-Monitor weakened at the time?
 
 
Okay. I suppose that makes sense then. However, the most powerful Pre-Crisis heroes were somewhere in tier 2 to start with, as far as I am aware. (Unlike what was shown here, Captain Marvel does not have heat vision though.)
 
Actually OG and Pre Cap Marvel both had energy emission via eyes. Just very rarely used it. But don't see it's relevance?

In any case, this is like the only one non 4-B feats of amped flash, but Anti montiro was pretty weakened, so take it as you will. And also feels like it's not straight up scalable
 
Okay. Maybe we should count it as an outlier then.
 
Okay. So what should we do here then?
 
Their AP become ED (or something close to it) and doesn't scale to them physically
 
Confluctor said:
Since dura and SS stuff are pretty much agreed upon, let's talk about ap


Weakened AM


4-B

ED sort of thing. Well... maybe not ED, but definitely nothing related to physicals

Same as above
Click to expand...
AM wasn’t weakened. The fight was in fact more in his favor due to Barry being absent in this timeline. Pre crisis heroes couldn’t do shit to him
 
Confluctor said:
Their AP become ED (or something close to it) and doesn't scale to them physically
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Okay, and which members agree with what here so far exactly? I have a hard time keeping proper track between all of the long-running discussions and all the important things I have to think about IRL right now, so a tally should probably help.
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
AM wasn’t weakened. The fight was in fact more in his favor due to Barry being absent in this timeline. Pre crisis heroes couldn’t do shit to him
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Literally read the first scan

Antvasima said:
Okay, and which members agree with what here so far exactly? I have a hard time keeping proper track between all of the long-running discussions and all the important things I have to think about IRL right now, so a tally should probably help.
Click to expand...
No clue. Only thing I know is that fish is the only one who wants to keep their Dura and ap.
 
even if he was weakened, he was still portrayed as vastly superior to pre crisis heroes here. And Wally did say that Barry's abscence doomed the multiverse
 
Here, AM very explicitly stated to be https://media.**********.net/attach...2022-07-06_10.33.10_.png?width=943&height=473 stronger than before
 
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