Bleach:Espada stats from CFYOW Novel

[Rebirth]

Cien thought that she can.The inferior part comes with different thing


yes.He could use 5 clones and she only 4.But that was in her base form


yes.I have all the Raw pages ,but i need some time to collect and present them with translation

sorry for getting off-topic but could you send me the raws for cien and kenny shaking the garganta?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

yes.I have all the Raw pages ,but i need some time to collect and present them with translation

I’ll wait for your translations, keep in mind simple online translators like google translate aren’t anywhere near accurate, try to get a reliable translation source

 

[zazabgfd]

try to get a reliable translation source

well that part is tricky.How we should define a reliable translation source?
i translate everything myself and in that case its good to have a third company to judge

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

well that part is tricky.How we should define a reliable translation source?
i translate everything myself and in that case its good to have a third company to judge

I can help verify, albeit I can’t promise I’ll be quick cuz I’m rather busy.

 

[Hasch]

This makes it clear FKT Barragan was stronger than Gimmjow in the novel

The Barragan that Ikomikidomoe knew was thousands of years younger. There’s nothing to say a young prime Barragan = Espada Barragan. So what you would deduce is that Prime Barragan > Espada Barragan. Which makes sense considering we know Barragan wasn’t actively training cuz he was so bored that he made his Hollow armies fight each other. Furthermore, we see with Yoruichi if you don’t train you get rusty. So, no Ikomikidomoe wasn’t referring to Espada Barragan here, that would create contradictory scaling chains as Grimmjow, Nel, and Halibel all hav e scaling to Quincy who scale above people like Espada Barragan.

What's the evidence for Hollows being unable to become rusty?

Age is irrelevant to Hollows and lack of training is as well, they simply become stronger trough eating more and they don't lose that strength.

On the other hand, becoming Arrancar makes them surpass their old powers and abilities.

Lemme outline clearly what I mean by your proposal creates contradictory scaling.

Espada Barragan < Res Yammy ~< AA Byakuya < LAA Byakuya ~ LAA Tsukishima =< CFYOW Tsukishima ~ CFYOW base Grimmjow

So if you think Iko somehow knows of Espada Barragan, you’d have circular scaling where Espada Barragan > Espada Barragan. You can see how that doesn’t work. However, Iko only knows about young prime Barragan, so the logical deduction is that prime Barragan is stronger than Espada Barragan. Which makes sense cuz prime Barragan used to fight with Yamamoto, and no one is going to contest that base Yamamoto folds Espada Barragan.

Why would you scale Yammy to Byakuya, that was a 2 vs 1 offpanel fight vs a character that can't efficiently use his powerlevel. Shunsui can hang with Yamamoto Shikai in a 2 vs1 and Starrk was stronger than him in stats.



The novel in turn scales post palace Byakuya to around Kyoraku level, who struggled a lot with Starrk.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This makes it clear FKT Barragan was stronger than Gimmjow in the novel

Not at all, that still can refer to a younger Barragan.

 

[speedster352]

Not at all, that still can refer to a younger Barragan.

So why not make a key for prime barragon?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So why not make a key for prime barragon?

Quite literally that’s what I’m proposing. I wanted to make a thread for it but Zaz beat me to the topic.

 

[Theendzero13]

So why not make a key for prime barragon?

lack of feats and on-screan appearences i guess

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

lack of feats and on-screan appearences i guess

Naw just haven’t gotten around to it yet.

 

[speedster352]

lack of feats and on-screan appearences i guess

Let’s wait until the anime adaptation releases eventually then you can make a key for him

 

[Reio35]

In spafwy cein did state kenpachi's power level was around nnoritora's during their first encounter. Which means kenpachi was not yammy level. Kenpachi just amps his ap beyond normal with his reiatsu. Same with Byakauya his bankai just amps his ap beyond normal which is why he could hurt yammy. Tbh if you can hurt nnoritora which any top tier espada can do you can harm yammy. As nnoritora has the highest durability.

Tokinada has the same reiatsu as shikai byakuya. But Byakauya can amp his ap with his bankai which makes his ap above tokinadas

 

[zazabgfd]

I’m going to ask you to start bringing translated scans as proof.

1.だが、肝心の戦闘能力はどこまで再現できているのか。それが現在重要な点だ。 確実に、あの姿での戦闘らしい戦闘は初めての筈だ。
Translation:
But ,to what extend she could reproduce vital/crucial combat abilities?Thats what matters right now.This must be her first battle in that form.

Cien knowing her abilities isnt sure if she could reproduce the fullpower of dangerous abilities that could potentially made that fight difficult for him

Also the core of her character is 再現-reproduction.In novel there are 0 implications that she could make techniques stronger with her reproduction alone.

2.分身できるのは、4体までか。本来の技の持ち主ならば、5体まで分身できた筈だ。 「...... やはり、100パーセント再現できるわけじゃあないようだね」
Translation:
So she could create 4 doppelgangers?When original user of that skill perfomed it, he could create 5 doppelgangers.After all, she can not reproduced 100% of it.

In her resurrection she faild to reproduce this technique at its 100%.

3.相手の虚閃(セロ)を呑みこみ、自分の虚閃(セロ)を上乗せして打ち返すカウンター技だ。 本来ならネリエルしか使えない技だが、ロカは、糸で己自身の身体を操る事により、彼女の技を再現してみせたのである。 だが ── 自分のものでもない技で、王虚の閃光(グラン・レイ・セロ)を受け止めるのは無茶だったようだ。 ロカは勢いよく血を吐き出し、顔を蒼くしながら砂の上に跪く。
Translation:
This is a counter technique in which you absorbs the opponent's Cero, adding your own Cero to it, then strikes back.
It belongs to Nelliel, a technique unsuitable for others, but Roka has reproduced it by manipulating her own body with threads.
However... it seems to have been sheer recklessness to fend off Gran Rey Cero with a technique that was not her own.
Roka was coughing up blood profusely, kneeling on the sand, her face quite pale.

「危なかったよ。だが、君は今の王虚の閃光 に、自分の虚閃 を上乗せすらしなかったらしい」 「やはり、今の虚閃重奏も完全に防御の為だけに使ったようだね……」
Translation:
- It was quite dangerous ! But still, you didn't even add your own Cero to the current Gran Rey Cero.

- Still, it looks like the Cero Doble was only used for Absolute Defence, doesn't it ?

We dont know could she add her own Cero or not,Cien thought that this is possible.But the thing is that Narita again emphasizes that this isnt her technique.

 

[zazabgfd]

The novel in turn scales post palace Byakuya to around Kyoraku level, who struggled a lot with Starrk.

for me ,Narita tried to retroactively made 2-0 Espada more powerfull in both of his novels.

And as you said Shunsui was struggling against Starrk

 

[Kingcrim212]

Cringe thread. I can see why mods get tired of bleach threads.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Chill out crim

Zaz I’ll respond to your post when I translate it myself

 

[zazabgfd]

I can see why mods get tired of bleach threads.

well,thats part of their job...so))

Cringe thread.

embrace the Cringe,become the Cringe)

 

[zazabgfd]

Zaz I’ll respond to your post when I translate it myself

thank you ,i will wait.

 

[Baldurgate]

With a slight breathlessness, Cien speaks. "It was dangerous. If it had been doubled, maybe one of my arms had been torn off as well.

Roca copying stuff isn’t inherently equal to the original tmk.

- Still, it looks like the Cero Doble was only used for Absolute Defence, doesn't it ?

So...

3 GRC from Cien > Yammy's/Starrk's abilities.

Roca's GRC Double is strong enough to torn off Cien's arm. Nelliel's GRC Double will be even stronger.

High 6-A with GRC Double even for Arrancar arc? Even stronger for CFYOW? Huh, nice catch.

 

[Hasch]

Not at all, that still can refer to a younger Barragan.

No, that has to be FKT Espada Barragan, given the context of being refering to the Barragan that Grimmjaw and Harribel knew.



The idea of prime young Barragan is not imposible, but there's nothing to support that interpretation given all we know about Hollows and Arrancars implies he was stronger in the FKT battle.

for me ,Narita tried to retroactively made 2-0 Espada more powerfull in both of his novels.

And as you said Shunsui was struggling against Starrk

I think fans overrate the Sternritters.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

No, that has to be FKT Espada Barragan, given the context of being refering to the Barragan that Grimmjaw and Harribel knew.



The idea of prime young Barragan is not imposible, but there's nothing to support that interpretation given all we know about Hollows and Arrancars implies he was stronger in the FKT battle.

No because Iko only knows about young Barragan. So his statement can only refer to young Barragan.

Yes but they’re contextualizing Iko’s statement, so again it’d only refer to a prime Barragan.

Lemme outline clearly what I mean by your proposal creates contradictory scaling.

Espada Barragan < Res Yammy ~< AA Byakuya < LAA Byakuya ~ LAA Tsukishima =< CFYOW Tsukishima ~ CFYOW base Grimmjow

So if you think Iko somehow knows of Espada Barragan, you’d have circular scaling where Espada Barragan > Espada Barragan. You can see how that doesn’t work. However, Iko only knows about young prime Barragan, so the logical deduction is that prime Barragan is stronger than Espada Barragan. Which makes sense cuz prime Barragan used to fight with Yamamoto, and no one is going to contest that base Yamamoto folds Espada Barragan.

 

[Hasch]

None of those post adress the narrator statement about how current Grimmjow would have fought the Barragan in their time as Espada despite still being weaker, nor is there any base for a Hollow being stronger just because he is younger.


And Byakuya doesn't scale to Yammy so there's no circular scaling.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

None of those post adress the narrator statement about how current Grimmjow would have fought the Barragan in their time as Espada despite still being weaker

The crazy part is, the narrator never says this.

And Byakuya doesn't scale to Yammy so there's no circular scaling.

That's your headcanon. Rather I prefer the manga which shows Byakuya cut Yammy's nose, and the databooks which confirm Byakuya and Kenpachi beat Yammy. So yes, he does scale.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-possible-upgrade-for-barragan-starrk-and-ulquiorra.125309/

Previously there was a upgrade thread where almost all points are made. Pretty much no one had any better counter argument for Shadow monarch guy.

I doubt Barragan, Stark getting any upgrade knowing a lot of people hate back scaling.

Anyway I agree with the thread.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

for me ,Narita tried to retroactively made 2-0 Espada more powerfull in both of his novels.

And as you said Shunsui was struggling against Starrk

Pretty much as Narita literally brought reiatsu difference between Grimmjow and Barragan it pretty much sums it up. People just don't wanna accept Barragan and Stark being Stronger than few characters.

 

[Hasch]

The crazy part is, the narrator never says this.

It does, is right there in the scan clear as day

Grimmjow now would fight Barragan or Aizen even knowing he would lose.

That's your headcanon. Rather I prefer the manga which shows Byakuya cut Yammy's nose, and the databooks which confirm Byakuya and Kenpachi beat Yammy. So yes, he does scale.

He barely scratched Yammy which is hardly grounds to scale, since giant Hollows have lower reiatsu density than human sized Vasto Lorde. On the other hand Zaraki was the main damage dealer as far as we saw.


A much better scalling line is Shunsui hanging with Yamamoto and being close to post palace Byakuya while also struggling with Starrk, since senior captains don't get much stronger between arcs that shows top Espada where always strong.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-possible-upgrade-for-barragan-starrk-and-ulquiorra.125309/

Previously there was a upgrade thread where almost all points are made. Pretty much no one had any better counter argument for Shadow monarch guy.

I doubt Barragan, Stark getting any upgrade knowing a lot of people hate back scaling.

Anyway I agree with the thread.

You mean another thread in which no one but the OP disagreed with it. Backscaling Espada arc characters from CFYOW creates too many contradictory scaling chains. Especially when the context of which Barragan Iko would be referring to literally cannot be Espada Barragan. Nothing proves those statements refer to Espada Barragan.

It does, is right there in the scan clear as day

Grimmjow now would fight Barragan or Aizen even knowing he would lose.

No because Iko only knows about young Barragan. So his statement can only refer to young Barragan.

He barely scratched Yammy which is hardly grounds to scale, since giant Hollows have lower reiatsu density than human sized Vasto Lorde.


A much better scalling line is Shunsui hanging with Yamamoto and being close to post palace Byakuya while also struggling with Starrk, since senior captains don't get much stronger between arcs that shows top Espada where always strong.

Actually it is extreme grounds to scale, Yammy has the second hardest hierro according to the databooks, piercing his hierro is a great feat.

 

[Hasch]

No because Iko only knows about young Barragan. So his statement can only refer to young Barragan.

The text I quoted is from the narrator, and there's no way for the Barragan that Ikomikidomoe talks about to be stronger since it had consumed less Hollows and was not an Arrancar yet.

Actually it is extreme grounds to scale, Yammy has the second hardest hierro according to the databooks, piercing his hierro is a great feat.

The novel explains giant Hollows have less reiatsu density than human sized Vasto Lorde.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The text I quoted is from the narrator,

No because Iko only knows about young Barragan. So his statement can only refer to young Barragan.

Yes but they’re contextualizing Iko’s statement, so again it’d only refer to a prime Barragan.

Narrator repeating what Iko says doesn't make it Espada Barragan. In fact the narrator doesn't specify which Barragan, the only instance of clarification is through Iko.

The novel explains giant Hollows have less reiatsu density than human sized Vasto Lorde.

Irrelevant, databooks state Yammy has the second hardest hierro, he has the second highest durability among the Espada.

 

[zazabgfd]

3 GRC from Cien > Yammy's/Starrk's abilities.

「君が準備している攻撃は、今の 『王虚の閃光』よりも上という事か……」焦燥に満ちた表情で、ロカを強く睨みつける。「一体何をその 『糸』で再現するつもりだ……！スタークの群狼か？バラガンの呪いか？それとも、最大解放状態のヤミーの巨体でもその 『糸』で再現するつもりか？」。「それを超える力など、この虚圏に存在したとすれば藍染様か今の僕だけだ！

Is the attack you are preparing now is even more powerful than the last Gran Rey Ceros.With a frustrated expression, Cien glares at Roca. "What on earth are you going to reproduce with your ability ! Stark's Wolfs? Is it the curse of Barragan? Or you going to reproduce the maximal released Yammy giant ?". "If there was any power beyond that in Hueco Mundo, it would be Aizen-sama or my current power!

Yammy's/Starrk's abilities>3 GRC from Cien.

I think fans overrate the Sternritters.

Kubo made everything for that.Mask fight completely break my head.But then in Cfyow we learned that RG Byakuya only on Shusnui level in Reiatsu

The idea of prime young Barragan is not imposible, but there's nothing to support that interpretation given all we know about Hollows and Arrancars implies he was stronger in the FKT battle.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-possible-upgrade-for-barragan-starrk-and-ulquiorra.125309/
Previously there was a upgrade thread where almost all points are made. Pretty much no one had any better counter argument for Shadow monarch guy.

I doubt Barragan, Stark getting any upgrade knowing a lot of people hate back scaling.

ooo,i see.Thank you for the Link

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You mean another thread in which no one but the OP disagreed with it. Backscaling Espada arc characters from CFYOW creates too many contradictory scaling chains. Especially when the context of which Barragan Iko would be referring to literally cannot be Espada Barragan. Nothing proves those statements refer to Espada Barragan.

I don't think scaling 2 espadas who doesn't have any anti feats makes any contradiction. Also Barragan upgrade won't affect anyone as Hachi used Barragans own power against Barragan. As for Stark he got back stabbed before Shunsui slammed him and he was emotionally affected by Barragan death. Well all I have to say is Stark and Barragan upgrade won't affect any other characters.
If we added Ulquiora then that's a different thing but only top 2 espdas who doesn't have anti feats should be upgraded.

Also Shunsui in war Arc with one eye kept up with Lille where it was harder for him to keep up stark with two eyes.

 

[zazabgfd]

and he was emotionally affected by Barragan death.

Not only that ,there are Databook statment that Shunsuis "strength" drag Starrk emotionally even closer to depression

しかし、始解した京楽の幾つもの技と“強さ”の前にスタークは沈んでいく。

Translation:

However, Starкk sinks*1 in front of the many techniques and "strength" of Kyoraku.

1.沈んで -to sink/to feel depressed

 

[Kingcrim212]

I don't think scaling 2 espadas who doesn't have any anti feats makes any contradiction. Also Barragan upgrade won't affect anyone as Hachi used Barragans own power against Barragan. As for Stark he got back stabbed before Shunsui slammed him and he was emotionally affected by Barragan death. Well all I have to say is Stark and Barragan upgrade won't affect any other characters.
If we added Ulquiora then that's a different thing but only top 2 espdas who doesn't have anti feats should be upgraded.

Also Shunsui in war Arc with one eye kept up with Lille where it was harder for him to keep up stark with two eyes.

U do know thats a stronger shunsui right? Its explained all the way back in the earliest chapters of bleach when you under go a life or death experience in bleach your spiritual pressure rapidly grows. I dont think i need to explain shunsui not getting a a zenkai boost from getting his eye blown out. So you can't backscale. Also lille doesnt even scale to anyone significant so im confused why you even brought him up.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

… how are people trying to argue that any changes to Starrk and Barragan’s AP doesn’t affect anything? Basically the whole cast > Yammy > those two. You can’t scale 1 and 2 to anything that scales above Yammy or else the scaling breaks down.

 

[Kingcrim212]

… how are people trying to argue that any changes to Starrk and Barragan’s AP doesn’t affect anything? Basically the whole cast > Yammy > those two. You can’t scale 1 and 2 to anything that scales above Yammy or else the scaling breaks down.

At this point we are just arguing in circles with people who bring up OP's point. They keep bringing up the same arguments that have already been debunked. I think at this point we can just wait for staff opinion on this thread. Nothing new has been brought up to help OP's argument.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

U do know thats a stronger shunsui right? Its explained all the way back in the earliest chapters of bleach when you under go a life or death experience in bleach your spiritual pressure rapidly grows. I dont think i need to explain shunsui not getting a a zenkai boost from getting his eye blown out. So you can't backscale. Also lille doesnt even scale to anyone significant so im confused why you even brought him up.

When did I said SHUNSUI having zenaki boost. I was referring Shunsui had only one eye in war Arc and kept up with Lille where he couldn't keep up with two eyes against Stark. Also yammy speed is worst among espdas him being stronger doesn't mean a thing.

 

[Kingcrim212]

When did I said SHUNSUI having zenaki boost. I was referring Shunsui had only one eye in war Arc and kept up with Lille where he couldn't keep up with two eyes against Stark. Also yammy speed is worst among espdas him being stronger doesn't mean a thing.

When u grow in spiritual pressure you also grow in speed as well. Shunsui from tybw is faster than the shunsui from fkt so i have no idea why youre backscaling

 

[zazabgfd]

U do know thats a stronger shunsui right?

Kubo himself stated in interview that Captains like Yama and Shunsui cant change much .Konpaku has their limits in Bleach,so you can not Zenkai above certain level

Bleach:repeat and reboot:

Q: What about Genryuusai’s left arm?

Kubo: He only has his right arm now.

Q: Is that all that’s changed?

Kubo: I think Genryuusai wouldn’t change much from his current state if he trained. Wouldn’t it be strange for someone who’s lived for over two thousand years to change over a period of 17 months? However, he does have unseen, inner changes.

Tite Interview:
Q: The senior captains doesn't change much in their apperance , so Kyouraku did not change either?
kubo: yes. Captains who holds the position for a very long period will not change a lot. Thats because they've undergo numerous pitched battles in the past. However, will witnesses the difference and new sides in the future battles. I guess Shunsui will go bankai. Also the haori that he wore contains some "history/background"

 

[Kingcrim212]

Kubo himself stated in interview that Captains like Yama and Shunsui cant change much .

Bleach:repeat and reboot:

Q: What about Genryuusai’s left arm?

Kubo: He only has his right arm now.

Q: Is that all that’s changed?

Kubo: I think Genryuusai wouldn’t change much from his current state if he trained. Wouldn’t it be strange for someone who’s lived for over two thousand years to change over a period of 17 months? However, he does have unseen, inner changes.

Tite Interview:
Q: The senior captains doesn't change much in their apperance , so Kyouraku did not change either?
kubo: yes. Captains who holds the position for a very long period will not change a lot. Thats because they've undergo numerous pitched battles in the past. However, will witnesses the difference and new sides in the future battles. I guess Shunsui will go bankai. Also the haori that he wore contains some "history/background"

Ill respond to this later. Im in class

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

When u grow in spiritual pressure you also grow in speed as well. Shunsui from tybw is faster than the shunsui from fkt so i have no idea why youre backscaling

I believe about OP adress about this.

Anyway can I know which character do you think will affect if Stark and Barragan upscales.