Prime Doppo?

[Amlad22]

@NotoriouSoda

Like I said, characters like Pickle and Musashi have feats of literally going toe to toe with Yujiro or with someone like Baki who has also faced Yujiro. The others like Filth, Amanai or Ali Jr don’t have this.

 

[Twellas]

Pickle, Baki and Prime Doppo have the feats of going toe to toe with Yujiro in some way. The others don’t. This is really basic stuff.

Yes they do, they would scale to Doppo who scales to Yujiro, because, as the OP shows, it's made aboundantly clear that nothing in the manga itself supports the idea of Doppo getting weaker after that fight. Yours is circular reasoning: Doppo got weaker because he gets hurt by people who are weaker than Yujiro because they don't scale to Yujiro despite fighting Doppo, who scales to Yujiro, because Doppo got weaker.

As far as I remember it’s in both.

Can't find it in the manga, send it here.

Doppo was “holding back” in the sense that he wasn’t using his massive speed advantage over Filth

Prove that Doppo has a massive speed advantage lol, that's never even implied during the fight. The truth of the matter is that, Filth hurts Doppo, Doppo stops "playing around" and procedes to literally no sell a punch from him and one tap him, period.

not because he magically became stronger than Filth.

no magic, just the fantastic concept of "suppression" that exists in fiction.

 

[rawXDglomp]

Saying Baki has the same level of scaling as doppo v yujiro is unfair when Yujiro is explcitly stared to get stronger every day, is shown to do so, and Baki actually lasted a while v demon back yujiro.
Doppo got no dif'd and murdered the instant yujiro actually tried at all.

 

[Twellas]

Doppo got no dif'd and murdered the instant yujiro actually tried at all.

tell me you haven't read the manga without telling me you haven't read the manga

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Saying Baki has the same level of scaling as doppo v yujiro is unfair when Yujiro is explcitly stared to get stronger every day, is shown to do so, and Baki actually lasted a while v demon back yujiro.
Doppo got no dif'd and murdered the instant yujiro actually tried at all.

Wait are you agreeing or disagreeing? Also no it wasn’t Doppo was doing well against Yujiro and Yujiro wasn’t casual at all in the fight. It’s once Yujiro used the DB you know the huge ass amp that’s when he no diff Doppo. Again look at the my fight breakdown

 

[Amlad22]

All I’m seeing here is a bad attempt to upgrade 99% of the verse to 7-C. Let’s try and make this clear, Prime Doppo scales to 7-C due to his fight with Yujiro. MT Doppo struggled with people who couldn’t even hurt Yujiro and got one shot by him casually. The gap is very clear.

If I have the time I’ll look for it. I don’t even remember the chapter number.

Please stop with this insanity. I hope you don’t believe Filth is actually equal to Doppo in terms of speed. His thing is being strong and durable, not fast. Doppo easily blitzes him multiple times during the fight. You’re taking things out of context again, seriously you need to stop this. Doppo won because he used techniques, not because he was stronger. That was the whole point of Doppo apologizing for using techniques, as he wanted to brawl with Filth but he was losing so his body instinctively used techniques. His punches staggered Filth where as Filth floored him and after the fight he could barley even stand.

 

[Armorchompy]

Folks, if enough characters that would be 7-C have anti-feats below that level, that means 7-C is an outlier, simple as that.

 

[Amlad22]

@Armorchompy

This is also a possibility.

I’d still say the correct way of looking at it is that the MT fighters (among many others) simply don’t scale to Yujiro in any way, shape or form. Baki and Jack were still getting one shot by Yujiro in the MT arc when he got serious and they’re literally number 1 and 2 out of the roster.

 

[Armorchompy]

If you want to argue Doppo scaling to Yujiro is an outlier, that's fine, I dunno the verse well enough to have an opinion on that. But from what I have seen, there is little evidence that shows the anime > early manga in canonicity, and I don't see much that shows Doppo having gotten weaker.

 

[Twellas]

You're all focusing on "this will upgrade all of the verse to 7-C" and not "it's objective that Doppo never got weaker after that fight", that sounds like a you problem, it doesn't matter that "if we do it like this then the earthquake feat will have to be an outlier", go ahead, the point is that Prime Doppo simply does not exist, nothing supports its existence and if anything it's heavily contraddicted.

I hope you don’t believe Filth is actually equal to Doppo in terms of speed. His thing is being strong and durable, not fast. Doppo easily blitzes him multiple times during the fight

W H E N ?! My man, you must have read (hope you read the actual manga...) a completely different manga from what I did, in the manga I read, there's not a SINGLE instance of Doppo blitzing Filth, not ONE

That was the whole point of Doppo apologizing for using techniques

HE NEVER DOES IN THE MANGA, man, you are 100% going off of the anime, none of what you're saying is in the actual manga and I'm going to assume that Filth breaking his hand on Yujiro also isn't

 

[NotoriouSoda]

My goal of this thread was to put into the question of Prime Doppo. The other stuff was saved for another thread that in making

 

[Antvasima]

Folks, if enough characters that would be 7-C have anti-feats below that level, that means 7-C is an outlier, simple as that.

I agree with this.

Anyway, what are the conclusions here so far regarding what can be applied?

 

[Amlad22]

@NotoriouSoda

Fair. But there’s no reason to go any further than this. Most people can see that characters like Filth or Amanai are in no way comparable to Yujiro and should never scale to him.

I mean just think, Filth couldn’t even scratch Yujiro with a punch yet he floored Doppo with the same strike. In comparison, Prime Doppo could actually hurt Yujiro with his punches and stayed conscious after taking multiple attacks, yet people are somehow trying to say Doppo didn’t get weaker. It just doesn’t make sense.

 

[Amlad22]

@Antvasima

Aside from accepting the manga (aside from the blatant outliers and POS moments) nothing is really being changed yet.

 

[Amlad22]

For anyone doubting my claims of the Doppo and Filth fight. You can read yourself here: https://********.org/chapter/8f4eb54c-2b2d-419f-85db-0fda3e470a37/1

Doppo is very clearly physically inferior to Filth, something shown in the first two pages alone. Page 4 makes it clear that Doppo could have easily avoided or countered the strike but didn’t, implying he had a speed advantage. The following sequence shows that Doppo’s kicks and elbow strikes do less damage to Filth than Filth’s regular old punches do in return. Page 10 even has Doppo’s eyes momentarily roll into the back of his head implying a near knockout. After all that, Doppo uses sanchin at the end of the fight to endure Filth’s punch, a technique explicitly stated to increase both stability and endurance. Lastly on page 16, Doppo admits Filth was too strong for him and even apologizes for using a technique since he was hoping to beat Filth in a brawl. After this be blitzes Filth with a nukite and wins with an attack to a vital spot.

To sum it up, Doppo is very clearly shown to be weaker than Filth. This is impossible if Doppo didn’t actually get weaker after his fight with Yujiro.

Edit: Manga Dex link won’t work but it’s chapter 218 of Grappler Baki

 

[Twellas]

I mean just think, Filth couldn’t even scratch Yujiro with a punch

Since you just won't show the actual scans, I'm just gonna say this is false, it's not in the manga, so your entire argument has no basis to begin with, and you do know that Yujiro got stronger in between his fight with Doppo and the MT, right? He's stated to grow stronger and more skilled by the second

Doppo admits Filth was too strong for him

bro, either I'm getting blind or you're lying, I don't find this ANYWHERE, not that it matters, since Filth never actually broke his hand on Yujiro, but still...

Page 4 makes it clear that Doppo could have easily avoided or countered the strike but didn’t

you do know this does nothing but strengthen my argument about Doppo being suppressed, right?

 

[Amlad22]

@Twellas

chapter 274, page 3. Filth shatters his hand trying to punch Yujiro. It took me 5 minutes to find it.

chapter 218, page 16. Doppo says Filth was too strong and his body instinctively used a technique

It does not. It confirmed what I said that Doppo won against Filth due to his speed and techniques rather than power or durability.

Just stop with this nonsense. You’re making yourself look bad at this point when every single thing you say is objectively incorrect.

 

[Twellas]

chapter 274, page 3. Filth shatters his hand trying to punch Yujiro

absolutely and utterly inconsequencial to the argument at hand for 2 reasons:
1) Yujiro gets hit in the Frontal Bone area (slightly to the side, but still frontal bone), which is stated in-universe to be the hardest part of the human body and to shatter metacarpal bones of even comparable fighters just by virtue of its higher toughness
2) The Yujiro who broke Filth's fist is much stronger than the one Doppo fought, Yujiro is stated to grow stronger at an insane rate, in the time it takes Strydum and Baki to exchange a few words, he's already grown stronger, which means that he would have grown stronger in the time between his fight with Doppo and his appearance during the MT. This isn't even out of the blue, 'member when Motobe tagged and was generally heavily implied to be equal to base yujiro? Bember when Motobe's whole body was overpowered by the Yokozuna's pinky finger? Yujiro just pops up and essentially snaps the Yokozuna's spine, that ought to give you an idea of how much stronger he got, or did Motobe also get weaker?

chapter 218, page 16. Doppo says Filth was too strong and his body instinctively used a technique

I'm not kidding, this is what page 16 looks like on Mangasee, unless you mean page 15? Where Doppo says "I took so many punches that my body instinctively used the Sanchin technique", which is nowhere near an apology nor him saying that Filth is too strong.

Fine, let's steelman your argument and say that yes, you've proven that Doppo during the MT was weaker than pre-MT, what about NGB? Where he's implied by Katsumi to be stronger than he's ever seen? Where he's stated to have embarked in a special training journey and to have gone to "seek greater strength"?

There's way too much proof supporting Doppo not getting weaker and any proof of him doing so can easily be explained away

 

[rawXDglomp]

Wait are you agreeing or disagreeing? Also no it wasn’t Doppo was doing well against Yujiro and Yujiro wasn’t casual at all in the fight. It’s once Yujiro used the DB you know the huge ass amp that’s when he no diff Doppo. Again look at the my fight breakdown

Agreeing that the 'prime doppo' statement is irrelevant because even the narrator said 'may be', did not say 'explicitly this is his last year at his prime'.
Agreeing with other guy that doppo scales to the yujiro who supposedly stopped an earthquake with a punch (I seem to remember this was considered coincidence at one point)
Disagreeing with other guy then listing everyone yujiro didn't 1 shot regardless of how far in story it was and if he used back or not.
And yujiro not using demon back is him holding back. A fairly casual thing to do. He got kind of pissy when he got hit with a few attacks that all magically healed within a single panel of them happening but the very instant he actually used demon back (not holding back) he very casually murdered doppo. Its not at all comparable to characters who fought him with demon back and stood a chance.

As for the 'everyone is 7c because doppo cut that yujiro twice in his fight' thing, eh, that's hard to really get a concrete answer on. I don't believe in outliters in verses with literally 1 author; if yujiro did stop that earthquake, and doppo made him bleed, those are things that objectively happened, the author objectively wrote that scenario and made it canon. But it does create issues later when yujiro is explicitly stated to be stronger than the yujiro who did this and therefore the doppo who forced him to use demon back. It really doesn't seem that out there though.
Speaking of that calc, the earthquake one, its iffy to begin with. Almost every post on it says its not really useable and the calc itself says 'its not calcable, I'll just say he scales to earthquake strength for stopping it because ???'. You don't stop an earthquake by applying pressure in a very small spot directly above it. And if you did, it wouldn't be the same strength used as the earthquake.

Yujiro himself having the scaling he has feels incredibly arbitary.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

you know I could give less of a **** about the earthquake because Yujiro is going to be city level in the new few crts. In fact I hate that y’all are Focusing on it when I literally told you that’s not the point of the thread. There’s a bunch of feats in Baki ranging from city block to small town level. But for some reason everyone being 7-C is crazy so it should be an outlier? New flash then, if y’all don’t disprove Prime Doppo then and I’m going to make this clear “That should scale” is literally going to be the next tier.

 

[Shmooply]

why are we discussing the earthquake feat when he did this before he became even more busted

 

[NotoriouSoda]

why are we discussing the earthquake feat when he did this before he became even more busted

Because muh scaling. Which I want to address in the next CRT. On god this was just to get question prime Doppo but like my usual Baki crt they go off topic

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Like I don’t want to spoil the next crt y’all but AP and shit is for another thread. There so much wrong with the profiles and I legitimately thought this would be the easiest to get out of the way.

 

[Amlad22]

@NotoriouSoda

I mean I think this should be easy too I just disagree for all the reasons I’ve listed. I don’t believe Prime Doppo should be discarded. There’s an argument to be made for Dou Doppo scaling to his younger self but even then I think there’s more anti feats for that. I agree though that AP should be discussed in a different thread.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

The arguments presented against this thread are lacking: we have no evidence that doppo got weaker, in fact right after he dies he goes on to slam a guy (Dorian) who slammed a guy that he says, multiple times, is stronger than him before he died. If characters are shown scaling to GB Doppo then they scale to Doppo, that's all there is to it. The point is "prime" Doppo doesn't exist, it's not a thing acknowledged in universe or in any baki related material.

 

[Twellas]

I mean I think this should be easy too I just disagree for all the reasons I’ve listed

which I debunked, btw

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Twellas, be a good boy

 

[rawXDglomp]

How is debating on a site about debating not 'being a good boy'?

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

yujiro r*pes mid diff

 

[Antvasima]

So can somebody write an easy to understand explanation regarding what currently needs to be evaluated here, and what, if any, conclusions that have been made so far?

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

So can somebody write an easy to understand explanation regarding what currently needs to be evaluated here, and what, if any, conclusions that have been made so far?

Essentially the wiki rates Doppo differently because Doppo is believed to have gotten weaker after his death but in reality this never happened and the feats Doppo performs later in the story directly conflict with this narrative as OP and Twellas stated. The reason Doppo goes from fighting on par with Yujiro to losing to people who are fodder to Yujiro in later arcs is due to Yujiro simply getting stronger which is stated in the series. Doppo never got weaker, he got stronger but he simply got power crept by other characters.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

The most blatant example is in the death row inmates arc in which Doppo easily defeats the convict Dorian who previously stomped Katsumi who was noted many times, by Doppo himself, to be stronger than he was in his "prime" version (before he died to Yujiro). Another one happens in Baki Dou II where Doppo no sells a cuckroach dash from the strongest version of Baki up to date and sends him flying with a strike, with no effort whatsoever and Baki with the same technique made a far stronger version of Yujiro, than the one Doppo lost to, bleed.

 

[Amlad22]

None of my points were actually debunked but whatever you say.

Doppo’s performances in the MT are proof enough that he got vastly weaker. Like I said, there’s an argument to be made with later series like Dou and Dou 2 but not during the MT or NGB.

@ItalianGuy1234

There’s one mistake with your point here. Number one, Doppo never said this when he was in his prime, he said it during the MT long after his fight with Yujiro. Doppo beating Dorian only proves that he got stronger after the MT, nothing more.

Also, not only was Baki far more serious against Yujiro compared to Doppo, but his cockroach dash was also far more effective against Doppo. You’re very badly misremembering the two scenes.

 

[Twellas]

None of my points were actually debunked but whatever you say.

I literally negated your whole point: Filth losing to Yujiro is completely irrelevant because the Yujiro Filth lost to is MASSIVELY stronger than the one Doppo fought, simple as that; without that, you have no argument whatsoever.

 

[Antvasima]

Essentially the wiki rates Doppo differently because Doppo is believed to have gotten weaker after his death but in reality this never happened and the feats Doppo performs later in the story directly conflict with this narrative as OP and Twellas stated. The reason Doppo goes from fighting on par with Yujiro to losing to people who are fodder to Yujiro in later arcs is due to Yujiro simply getting stronger which is stated in the series. Doppo never got weaker, he got stronger but he simply got power crept by other characters.

The most blatant example is in the death row inmates arc in which Doppo easily defeats the convict Dorian who previously stomped Katsumi who was noted many times, by Doppo himself, to be stronger than he was in his "prime" version (before he died to Yujiro). Another one happens in Baki Dou II where Doppo no sells a cuckroach dash from the strongest version of Baki up to date and sends him flying with a strike, with no effort whatsoever and Baki with the same technique made a far stronger version of Yujiro, than the one Doppo lost to, bleed.

What do the rest of the people here think about this? It seems to make sense to me, but I have no way to verify.

Perhaps the connected evidence/scans can be posted, after which I can ask other staff members?

 

[rawXDglomp]

I don't think Katsumi was ever shown to be stronger than 'prime' doppo, it always just seemed to be Doppo being overly proud of his son.

 

[Kerr5]

Like I don’t want to spoil the next crt y’all but AP and shit is for another thread. There so much wrong with the profiles and I legitimately thought this would be the easiest to get out of the way.

About that, how are you gonna scale Yuu Amanai?

I mean, he has a potential Baseline Building lvl Feat, so i think that if we scale him like we are actually doing most characters will be upgraded from 9-A to 8-C or 9-A+

 

[Kerr5]

Like I don’t want to spoil the next crt y’all but AP and shit is for another thread. There so much wrong with the profiles and I legitimately thought this would be the easiest to get out of the way.

I'm talking about this feat, which i already calculated personally but didn't upload, and the result was 0.254 tons

 

[Kerr5]

Anyways since i'm not even close to being an expert i will just left it there, if someone want to calc it.

 

[rawXDglomp]

You said you already calc'd it yea? Just get the maths team to confirm its right. No need for someone else to calc it if you literally already did it.