SHINZA ONE LAST TIME

[azontr]

I think the main problem is the difficulty of achieving those improvements, not the time spent to achieve them, as revisions have been stalled for quite long times before. Masada's writing style just isn't very easy to read, even for Japanese people, and I think the main point is that it may take years for any reliable translations to be finished, along with the already slow speed of ongoing CRTs.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted. But the best solution is still to improve the pages as best we are able at the moment, and then improve them more later, when we get further information.

 

[azontr]

Yeah, I understand what you mean. It just seems some people either don't want to put in that level of effort, or feasibly can't, as things stand.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, they will have to put in the effort eventually, and having the pages around and revising them certainly beats starting entirely from scratch.

 

[azontr]

Obviously, one has to put in effort for any verse or profile, Ant. The point here is that with the current lack of resources and the time it'd take to get the necessary resources, the effort is unreasonable.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, then we have to make the pages as good as possible with what we currently have available, which doesn't seem nearly limited enough to delete the pages entirely.

 

[Livinmeme]

The fact that Ruby compossited now solos Masada verse, demobane,marvel and when they cry is very funny NGL

 

[azontr]

You are somewhat correct on that front, Ant. Dies Irae is the only real translated work, and that doesn't seem to be nearly enough to support any profiles well... Outside of the Dies Irae profiles. The verse has a lot more characters than those in Dies Irae, after all.

 

[Livinmeme]

At the end dies irae is trully dead

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well, then we have to make the pages as good as possible with what we currently have available, which doesn't seem nearly limited enough to delete the pages entirely.

Well I will like to propose people not making vs threads with Shinza characters till it’s fixed in some months I guess

 

[Paul_Frank]

Well, they will have to put in the effort eventually, and having the pages around and revising them certainly beats starting entirely from scratch.

Like I said above though, there is no one willing to, and there's no guarantee anyone ever will be, at least not anytime soon.

So as of now we have pages that the knowledgeable members admit have inaccuracies and missing things, etc, but refuse to work on, to the extent that almost all of them agree to deleting the verse because they've given up on it.

Additionally, the verse is so outsider unfriendly that it's basically impossible for non knowledgeable people to revise it, the few scans we have aren't enough to really add or help change stuff because all it would allow is for people to argue around the same few points constantly and never make progress revising it, because that's all the information a casual wiki page viewer would have on the franchise.

If the knowledgeable members are both saying the verse needs fixing, but also for the most part they're either gone or agreeing to delete it because they won't fix it, and the verse has a majority of it untranslated and that untranslated stuff is necessary to help revise the verse, due to not having sufficient scans to add on or change much reasonably otherwise, keeping the verse at that point feels more like being obstinate because it's been around for a while, rather than trying to have accurately indexed series.

If you think that working from scratch is less advised than having the profiles around it can easily be better sometimes, then that's why some people were talking about saving the code of the current profiles before deleting it, in case knowledgeable members returned or came in later on and decided to fix everything

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I said earlier, the problem is that the profile pages are still of comparatively good quality, and as such, deleting them would set a very bad precedent.

Also, it is ultimately the responsibility of the supporters to improve on the verse, if they want things to change, rather than just give up on it.

If there are current important ongoing revisions for it, you can summon me, the staff members who are listed in the verse and knowledgeable members list pages, and a few of our active administrators to try to help you out.

I suppose that we could make a rule about the characters not participating in versus threads for the time being though.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well, as I said earlier, the problem is that the profile pages are still of comparatively good quality, and as such, deleting them would set a very bad precedent.

Also, it is ultimately the responsibility of the supporters to improve on the verse, if they want things to change, rather than just give up on it.

The current supporters are not enough to pass a CRT as Yuri is the only staff and he is he only one always replying to the said CRT

If there are current important ongoing revisions for it, you can summon me, the staff members who are listed in the verse and knowledgeable members list pages, and a few of our active administrators to try to help you out.

Well other staff members I guess

I suppose that we could make a rule about the characters not participating in versus threads for the time being though.

This is fine

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask QuasiYuri to summon some administrators to the Shinza threads via automatised notifications, and then together try to explain your case.

So do you have a suggested new rules text in mind for the Shinza verse page?

 

[PrinceofPein]

So do you have a suggested new rules text in mind for the Shinza verse page?

This verse will be subject to revision in the near future. Until the revision is completed, it is not advised that users create VS threads featuring the characters from this series.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine to add to the Shinza verse page. You should link here in the little editing summary box.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will do that when I am on pc if no one beats me to it

 

[QuasiYuri]

I'm sorry but I kinda made it clear I don't really want to involve myself in Shinza stuff that much (although I still do when I'm bored).
I think it wouldn't be too far from the truth to say I may be the only active staff with knowledge on Shinza beyond Dies Irae.

Anyway, I'm still strongly for having it deleted than badly indexed.

As you said for that one russian verse, anything beyond Dies Irae also has the problem of language barrier.
Besides that, while it is famous in powerscaling communities, it carry a lot of toxicity alongside. That's part of why Qliphoth Bacikal left the wiki and also was shown quite clearly when I was harassed because of the downgrade to 1-B.

Keeping it when nobody actually doing stuff on the verse want to doesn't make much sense to begin with.

(And if Shinza pages truly are above average, then we have ridiculously low standards for what's "average", which isn't really a good thing. Dies Irae profiles may mostly be so, but the rest is way more debattable).

 

[Antvasima]

I'm sorry but I kinda made it clear I don't really want to involve myself in Shinza stuff that much (although I still do when I'm bored).
I think it wouldn't be too far from the truth to say I may be the only active staff with knowledge on Shinza beyond Dies Irae.

Anyway, I'm still strongly for having it deleted than badly indexed.

As you said for that one russian verse, anything beyond Dies Irae also has the problem of language barrier.
Besides that, while it is famous in powerscaling communities, it carry a lot of toxicity alongside. That's part of why Qliphoth Bacikal left the wiki and also was shown quite clearly when I was harassed because of the downgrade to 1-B.

Keeping it when nobody actually doing stuff on the verse want to doesn't make much sense to begin with.

(And if Shinza pages truly are above average, then we have ridiculously low standards for what's "average", which isn't really a good thing. Dies Irae profiles may mostly be so, but the rest is way more debattable).

Okay. Noted.

@Promestein @AKM sama

What do you think?

 

[Antvasima]

I'm sorry but I kinda made it clear I don't really want to involve myself in Shinza stuff that much (although I still do when I'm bored).
I think it wouldn't be too far from the truth to say I may be the only active staff with knowledge on Shinza beyond Dies Irae.

Anyway, I'm still strongly for having it deleted than badly indexed.

As you said for that one russian verse, anything beyond Dies Irae also has the problem of language barrier.
Besides that, while it is famous in powerscaling communities, it carry a lot of toxicity alongside. That's part of why Qliphoth Bacikal left the wiki and also was shown quite clearly when I was harassed because of the downgrade to 1-B.

Keeping it when nobody actually doing stuff on the verse want to doesn't make much sense to begin with.

(And if Shinza pages truly are above average, then we have ridiculously low standards for what's "average", which isn't really a good thing. Dies Irae profiles may mostly be so, but the rest is way more debattable).

@Mr._Bambu @Damage3245 @DarkDragonMedeus

Your input would also be appreciated regarding this.

 

[Damage3245]

The OP makes some good points for why the verse should be deleted.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the reply.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, same with Damage here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It is best to wait a while for more staff input here, but it seems like we are leaning towards deleting the verse then.

I am not fond of the story, given the combination of nihilistic cosmic horror, how it seems to demonise all major religious viewpoints except for Shintoism, and that it twisted autism itself into an embodiment of evil, but the concept is still imaginative, and it is a major verse for the powerscaling community, so losing it is unfortunate.

 

[PrinceofPein]

While your definition of the verse is well a bit untrue but I can see why you will think that most people seem to think that before reading the verse

Anyway we need to back up the entire pages if we are deleting it

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Feel free to do so.

 

[Overlord775]

I am not fond of the story, given the combination of nihilistic cosmic horror, how it seems to demonise all major religious viewpoints except for Shintoism, and that it twisted autism itself into an embodiment of evil, but the concept is still imaginative

not to offend you or anything ant, but if you genuinely think that then it shows you lack even a decent understanding of the series

 

[Tarang123]

I am not fond of the story, given the combination of nihilistic cosmic horror, how it seems to demonise all major religious viewpoints except for Shintoism, and that it twisted autism itself into an embodiment of evil, but the concept is still imaginative, and it is a major verse for the powerscaling community, so losing it is unfortunate.

They didn’t make anyone the embodiment of evil. They just made hajun narcissistic af.

Other thing is that it doesn’t seem to demonize religions, just that it’s putting them in a new light. Similar to stuff that DC has been doing for decades.

 

[Tarang123]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I continue to have the same impression regarding the series' extremely hostile and possibly outright bigoted views regarding non-Japanese religions and autistic people/mindsets, and was not fond of the "Nazis are cool" angle either, but I have obviously only digested summaries of it, so I may be mistaken.

Regardless, we need some more staff input here.

@AKM sama @Promestein @Mr._Bambu @ByAsura @Qawsedf234

Do you think that it is fine if we delete this verse, or would it set a bad precedent?

 

[ByAsura]

I’m not sure about deleting it right now, but I think the OP has a good point.

You pick apart the individual points by comparing them to other verses, but it’s the combination of factors.

For example, Star Trek CRTs die off quickly (like within a month) and there’s little interest in fixing it due to the lack of supporters, but it very much has the potential to ben fixed because all the canonical content is easily available and in English.

As another, Gunbuster is almost entirely untranslated and has a lot of lost media, but a few people (including myself) are actually fixing up the verse progressively. Ditto for Gundam, which even has a massive fan base outside the wiki that collect and translate even the most obscure media in the franchise.

I think we deleted another high quality verse after all the characters were reduced to Human level.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

Also, my apologies if I caused offence above. My doctor has reduced my medication, so I am a bit less emotionally dulled down than previously, and as such more prone to not filtering my thoughts properly. I will try to get it under control.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Personally, I don't want it to be deleted because it would be a bad example for other verses, 90% of which are not full as well.

 

[Antvasima]

That is a good point, yes.

 

[Promestein]

I don't really think it is. If an untranslated verse is missing a lot of content and can't be readily read and accessed by people in order to correct this, that's a big issue and the pages probably can't remain as they are - but if no one is willing to fix them, there's nothing me or you can do about it besides put the pages out of their misery.

 

[ByAsura]

I still don’t really see the bad precedent argument.

This happens once in a blue moon, but the wiki’s been here for a long time. Verse-wide deletions like this, no matter the quality, have happened plenty of times. It’s just that they’re rare.

Just a few months ago, I axed the entire Lexx verse for pretty similar reasons. Those pages were probably lower quality, but they were also infinitely more accessible than I’m led to believe this verse is.

If you’re interested, archive the verse and create a conversation with other members to maybe bring the verse back in a more respectable form.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I’m all for deleting as long as we are backing it up somewhere like I said in the OP as we are still working on it but since it’s only 3 of us and such a large verse of untranslated media that will require us to translate even though we only speak basic Japanese and still learning. So yes it should be deleted till we are done in some months or a year
Or alternatively if people don’t want to delete it at the very least this would be placed on the verse page

This verse will be subject to revision in the near future. Until the revision is completed, it is not advised that users create VS threads featuring the characters from this series.

But I will soon counting the votes I guess I want the thread to be open for at least a week before I start

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is somebody willing to copy all of the relevant page contents to a blog post please? (Preferably do not include the categories, as it messes up our wiki organisation.)

After that, one of our staff members can delete all of the Shinza pages and remove all of the links to them from other wiki pages.

 

[Promestein]

I’m all for deleting as long as we are backing it up somewhere like I said in the OP as we are still working on it but since it’s only 3 of us and such a large verse of untranslated media that will require us to translate even though we only speak basic Japanese and still learning. So yes it should be deleted till we are done in some months or a year

I, uh, hope you have some more experienced Japanese speakers and translators to help you with that, otherwise who even knows if the translation would be good or accurate enough...

 

[GiornoGiovannaF]

cant you just delete k3 and pantheon but leave dies ?