Genshin Impact GenRevs #02: Speed, Range and Other Stuff

[Solacis]

Here we go again.

1. SPEED

• All characters scale to Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1798) via dodging lightning.

2. RANGE

• All bow users should have a range of hundreds of meters as that is the normal range of bows and arrows.
• All characters that scale to Razor should have a magic range of several kilometres due to his storm-creation feat.

3. RESISTANCES

• All Vision-users resist Electricity Manipulation via resisting balethunder, which is capable of killing normal people within seconds.
• All Vision-users should resist their respective element, as Diluc is unaffected by his own passive heat aura that can instantly vaporize ice, both Eula and Chongyun are unaffected by the cold of Dragonspine, and Childe has elemental resistances to each of his elements represented in his boss fight.

 

[Confluctor]

both Eula and Chongyun are unaffected by the cold of Dragonspine

Was this in the gameplay or a cutscene?

 

[Ronin119]

Was this in the gameplay or a cutscene?

Iirc their profiles

 

[Jackpact]

Was this in the gameplay or a cutscene?

Their backstory, tho Chongyun case is more specific while Eula is just plain resistance via being a cryo allogenes.

Also agree to the rest but who would scale to Razor aside from Lisa?

Edit: also wouldn't pyro allogenes resist heat manip since the Diluc example is more heat based and not just radiate flame?

 

[Confluctor]

Their backstory, tho Chongyun case is more specific while Eula is just plain resistance via being a cryo allogenes.

I see.

Not sure about adding the last ability tho. It's a bit complicated I suppose.

 

[RatherClueless]

All bow users should have a range of hundreds of meters as that is the normal range of bows and arrows.

You can shoot an arrow over several in game killometers, so this might actually be quite the low ball.

All characters that scale to Razor should have a magic range of several kilometres due to his storm-creation feat.

Um, why? The entire feat has only one attack and it happens right above the character. There is no reason for anyone but Lisa (excluding characters like Archons) to scale.

All Vision-users resist Electricity Manipulation via resisting balethunder, which is capable of killing normal people within seconds.

This is fine. I'd actually go even further and say that they resist elemental energies to a certain degree as a whole.

both Eula and Chongyun are unaffected by the cold of Dragonspine

Chongyun caught a cold and his resistance/affinity to the cold comes from his positive energy, not his vision.

Now to the main point of this CRT.

First of all, the lightning doesn't spawn at the edge of the screen, but way higher up. It's actually pretty much impossible to see unless you get someone else into your world.

Next up lets talk about the distances taken in the clip. Why is the entirety of Jeans dodge being considered even though the vast majority of the distance she covers is after the lightning already struck the ground?

So I ended up taking a quick vid myself and counted the frames.

Frame #1: The first frame in which Ayaka reacted to the dash input and changed direction.

Frame #8: The first frame in which the lightning can be seen.

Frame #11: The first frame in which the lightning hits the ground.

Frame #20: The first frame in which Ayaka left the AoE

So the measurements taken don't make too much sense.

Next up is the issue of the speed of the lightning. It being electricity doesn't matter much when the Cicin mage has several electricity based moves that are way slower than lightning speed. Characters like Fischl, Beidou or the Traveler also have electricity based moves that are way slower than real lightning. What do I want to get at with that? Electro element based attacks greatly vary in speed, so unless there is evidence for this attack to be lightning speed, it shouldn't be assumed.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

You can shoot an arrow over several in game killometers, so this might actually be quite the low ball.

I'm not sure if this is supposed to reflect their actual range or if this is simply a game mechanic.

This is fine. I'd actually go even further and say that they resist elemental energies to a certain degree as a whole.

I can agree with this. Vision holders resisting elemental energies as a whole makes more sense to me than them suddenly resisting one specific element.

 

[Solacis]

So what's the consensus so far?

 

[RatherClueless]

So what's the consensus so far?

Don't think there are any as of now

 

[Jackpact]

Which attack of fischl, beidou and the traveler isn't lightning speed?

As far as i can tell, Fischl 1st or 2nd talent is basically just lightning falling down, her burst is just lightning falling on all of the nearby enemies. Beidou burst on hit effect is just lightning that can arch between multiple targets while the inital is lightning falling down. Traveler create construct made of electro energy to throw and create cloud that strike the enemy they hit with lightning instantly.

I don't see where the attack that isn't lightning speed come from.

 

[RatherClueless]

Which attack of fischl, beidou and the traveler isn't lightning speed?

As far as i can tell, Fischl 1st or 2nd talent is basically just lightning falling down, her burst is just lightning falling on all of the nearby enemies. Beidou burst on hit effect is just lightning that can arch between multiple targets while the inital is lightning falling down. Traveler create construct made of electro energy to throw and create cloud that strike the enemy they hit with lightning instantly.

I don't see where the attack that isn't lightning speed come from.

Oz's projectiles and movements. Beidous serpents and the travelers constructs. There are also the cicins and the cicin mages electro balls and razors burst. None of them act like electricity. Since there are several cases like these I ask the question, where is the proof that this is in fact lightning speed when there are several cases of the electro element not acting like you'd expect electricity to act.

There is also Childe moving "as lightning", which is treated as quite the speed feat. We actually have someone counting the seconds in the background, so we know for a fact this wasn't cinematic time. This was most certainly not lightning speed. There is also the traveler and Kazuha traveling as lightning to speed up. Although we can't say for sure whether this is cinematic time, there rly isnt any indication for it.

Also, saying they can all travel at lightning speed/dodge lightning kinda defeats the purpose of characters like Childe, the Traveler and Kazuha using the electro element to speed up. Why do that if you are basically that fast anyways?

If there are any severe grammar/spelling mistakes in here I apologize, but I have a pretty bad headache rn.

 

[Jackpact]

Oz projectiles is just electro enerrgy shot, it's not actual lightning, and ,same with cicin mage non-lightning attacks, Oz movement also is explained by the fact that he's just a raven and never turn into a lighting bolt, so him traveling slowly is normal.

Beidou serpent not moving at lightning speed is not an anti feat, the thing is created out of electro energy not lightning itself, so it not zooming around her is normal, same with traveler shuriken.

What does Razor burst have to do with this? Anyway, it's just a seemingly somewhat sentient summon made out of electro energy, it doesn't move at lightning speed as it isn't a lightning bolt, it's just a normal summon that hit people with it claw and hand.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Outside from the elemental resistances and speed that still being discussed, i agree with the rest

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

outside speed, i'd say I agree for most.

brings up keqing english dub about light speed

I'll keep watching how It goes with the speed talk but I'll go do my own checking while this goes on

 

[Vietthai96]

Just a passer-by, but those screenshots used for speed is taken straight out of gameplay

 

[Solacis]

Next up is the issue of the speed of the lightning. It being electricity doesn't matter much when the Cicin mage has several electricity based moves that are way slower than lightning speed. Characters like Fischl, Beidou or the Traveler also have electricity based moves that are way slower than real lightning. What do I want to get at with that? Electro element based attacks greatly vary in speed, so unless there is evidence for this attack to be lightning speed, it shouldn't be assumed.

I'm not going to argue on the topic of the values used for the calc, since that's beyond me and you're probably right about it anyway.

However, on the topic of attacks not moving at lightning speed in gameplay - that's straight up just game mechanics. There are some specific attacks that are deliberately made to look as though they travel significantly slower than normal lightning like Lisa's Tap-E, but for moves like Lisa's regular attacks and lightning that's for all intents and purposes made to look as if it come down from the sky like Fischl's Thundering Retribution, there's no reason to believe they're not intended to be viewed as moving as fast as actual lightning. The only reason they'd be moving slow enough for us to perceive, especially in the case of enemy attacks, is because it'd be ludicrous to expect players to react to accurately-depicted lightning speed. This is the case for the vast majority of lightning feats in games, especially ARPGs.

As far as the game is concerned. If from the perspective of the player, lightning comes from the sky and the source is not explicitly shown, then the developers intended for it to be seen as cloud-to-ground. Otherwise, the devs would've made it clear that the lightning was not, and show the source of said lightning in-view of the player perspective. This is in the exact same vein as Zhongli's Planet Befall: where from the player's perspective it is clearly shown to be a meteor falling through the clouds, but from another player's POV it just looks like a meteor appeared out of cloudy-looking wormhole. Only the player-user's POV should be taken as the intended perspective.

 

[Jackpact]

Zhongli's Planet Befall: where from the player's perspective it is clearly shown to be a meteor falling through the clouds, but from another player's POV it just looks like a meteor appeared out of cloudy-looking wormhole.

Kinda funny how from our point of view it look like it's falling down through the cloud normally but from another player perspective, the meteor literally bent it trajectory at the half way point making it look jank as **** from other players perspective.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Kinda funny how from our point of view it look like it's falling down through the cloud normally but from another player perspective, the meteor literally bent it trajectory at the half way point making it look jank as **** from other players perspective.

Gameplay mechanics restrictions for portrayal

 

[RatherClueless]

like Lisa's Tap-E

Got any evidence on that?

but for moves like Lisa's regular attacks and lightning that's for all intents and purposes made to look as if it come down from the sky like Fischl's Thundering Retribution

I am not arguing Lisa's/Razor's hold E. Just anything that isn't clearly lightning for as long as it has nothing else to back it up.

The only reason they'd be moving slow enough for us to perceive, especially in the case of enemy attacks, is because it'd be ludicrous to expect players to react to accurately-depicted lightning speed.

I mean, the Cicin mage has several moves with varying speeds, including one that is literally undodgable.

but from another player's POV it just looks like a meteor appeared out of cloudy-looking wormhole.

Kinda off topic, but that's literally what it looks like from either perspective tho. Heck, it doesn't even look like a real meteor.

Anyways. That still leaves the issue of literal on screen showings and contradictions [1],[2],[3],[4]. There is nothing in here that implies cinematic timing (especially in the case of Childe, as we have someone counting down the seconds in the background), but that's not even the biggest issue here. The biggest issue is that none of these make sense if characters without electro visions can move even close to as fast as this. Why use it to speed up if you don't need it?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

Also unrelated to the revision, but i didn't know Raiden profile was published, yet we still not have the others profiles for the rest of chars that listed in the verse page, which kinda unfair lel

 

[RatherClueless]

Bump

 

[Nehz_XZX]

There is also Childe moving "as lightning", which is treated as quite the speed feat. We actually have someone counting the seconds in the background, so we know for a fact this wasn't cinematic time. This was most certainly not lightning speed.

There is nothing in here that implies cinematic timing (especially in the case of Childe, as we have someone counting down the seconds in the background), but that's not even the biggest issue here.

I think we already discussed Childe's feat on Discord. Wasn't there the issue of a lot of Childe's movements being before the counting of the seconds even started and how most of what he does isn't directly shown on the screen? Unless you have a method to ascertain his speed from that it's pretty hard to conclusively say that he is faster or slower than something else based on that particular feat.

 

[MidnightDawn1]

Agreed

 

[RatherClueless]

Alright, about the Childe feat. So one thing out of the way right away, I missed one point when they actually display cinematic time and it's pretty obvious at that. It is right after Childe zooms past the ruin guards before launching them into the air. However, before that we see the visual of the ruinguards slowly trundeling towards Childe while Teucer is talking to him. There are no signs of anything speeding up or slowing down up untill that point, so it should be assumed that that's normal speed.

I also realized that this is happening in realtime (it's raining in the background). Since stronger regular humans (adventurers and military) would kinda backscale to the lightning feats, they should be able to block or dodge Kazuha's dash attack or whatever that is. This isn't even talking about the regular swings he made before that. This is also the best feat from any character in this entire fight and isn't even close to lightning speeds. It's closer to peak human, really.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

How about regular lightning from natural weather that happens from time to time especially in the islands of Inazuma before you cleared the shrine quest to calm their weather, there is also that case where I'm pretty sure it was stated and implied that Shogun regulates the weather surrounding Inazuma which of course tries to spam you with lightning if you try to trespass, though it scales later in the story that still scales for Traveler for going against Shogun herself.

 

[RatherClueless]

How about regular lightning from natural weather that happens from time to time

What about it? Last I checked there is no statement or even implication that you ever dodged any real lightning. There is an achievement for getting hit by it tho. I should probably also mention that natural lightning in game is literally undodgeable as it only takes 1 frame to hit. Only way to "dodge" it is to dodge the frame before it strikes and use your invincibility frames to avoid it, but that hardly counts.

there is also that case where I'm pretty sure it was stated and implied that Shogun regulates the weather surrounding Inazuma which of course tries to spam you with lightning if you try to trespass

She isnt actively trying to hit anyone. Even if, that'd be a feat for the Alcor, not the traveler.

still scales for Traveler for going against Shogun herself.

The traveler never fought the Shogun though? They fought Ei and got the sht beaten out of them. It took 100 visions and some severe deus ex machina Teppei nonsense to barely beat her . . . and that's her without a Gnosis may I add.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

The traveler never fought the Shogun though? They fought Ei and got the sht beaten out of them. It took 100 visions and some severe deus ex machina Teppei nonsense to barely beat her . . . and that's her without a Gnosis may I add.

also the traveler fought Ei the first time and escaped but they still dueled although Traveler was getting beaten badly he was still holding of his own.

holding off his own and being able to react to her attacks counts as speed or reaction speed at the very least.

She isnt actively trying to hit anyone. Even if, that'd be a feat for the Alcor, not the traveler.

As shogun oversees everything in inazuma often sometimes derived as "Omnipresence" I doubt its not actively hitting when you literally got targetted when you try to ice bridge towards it or tresspass the territory

also Kazuha escaped the same storm with a boat and was found by Alcor

simply put I don't see a reason why you won't scale shogun to Ei and Ei speed to traveler for holding himself off before getting beaten badly in the first encounter

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

On another note the lightning in seirei island specifically targets you when you didn't purify it. that alone is enough reason for cloud to ground lightning

at best one should do a recalc (although I believe it will be a downscale from original calc) with seirei island since at least there is a visible cloud and the lightning are often shown coming out from it if you really wanna contest the validity of real lighting on the original calc

besides the electro or lightning and electricity attacks in genshin meets the requirement to be considered as real lightning or electricity at least from the comment and I can validate that because yeah getting electro charged makes your body contract stopping your movement, it flows in superconductivity with cryo and is even one of the special electro resonance

 

[RatherClueless]

On another note the lightning in seirei island specifically targets you when you didn't purify it. that alone is enough reason for cloud to ground lightning

at best one should do a recalc (although I believe it will be a downscale from original calc) with seirei island since at least there is a visible cloud and the lightning are often shown coming out from it if you really wanna contest the validity of real lighting on the original calc

besides the electro or lightning and electricity attacks in genshin meets the requirement to be considered as real lightning or electricity at least from the comment and I can validate that because yeah getting electro charged makes your body contract stopping your movement, it flows in superconductivity with cryo and is even one of the special electro resonance

You literally can't dodge it tho. All you can do is get out of the way before it even strikes and that simply doesn't qualify as dodging.

It meeting the requirements doesn't mean a thing if there are several things going directly against it always being as fast as lightning. It simply causes tons of contradictions and goes against actual cutscenes which should be treated >>> in game attacks locked behind AR which can be completely avoided. You can literally play this entire game without ever even seeing that attack. Also, the way superconduction works in Genshin is way different than irl . . .

also the traveler fought Ei the first time and escaped but they still dueled although Traveler was getting beaten badly he was still holding of his own.

holding off his own and being able to react to her attacks counts as speed or reaction speed at the very least.

The traveler didn't escape. Ei let them out after knocking them out. Also, are you implying that the traveler with 100 visions is comparable to base traveler!? Wouldn't the far simpler assumption be that Ei wasn't taking them serious at all? She literally used her naginata to defeat the traveler in the first encounter, not her tachi. After defeating Signora the Shogun also makes it pretty clear that the only reason why she isn't dusting them like she just did Signora is because they won the duel. Before the traveler got the deus ex Teppei it was never a real fight.

As shogun oversees everything in inazuma often sometimes derived as "Omnipresence" I doubt its not actively hitting when you literally got targetted when you try to ice bridge towards it or tresspass the territory

May I ask if you played her story quest? She literally didn't know about the condition of the storm or even what happens inside of Inazuma. Not being able to bridge to Inazuma is game mechanics stopping you from doing something you arent supposed to do. This kinds stuff exists in tons of games.

also Kazuha escaped the same storm with a boat and was found by Alcor

That's an antifeat for you tho? I mean, we even have regular people fleeing by using a basic raft.

simply put I don't see a reason why you won't scale shogun to Ei and Ei speed to traveler for holding himself off before getting beaten badly in the first encounter

Becuase the gap in power between them was made very apparent. The amount of times it's been stated and shown and the amount of plot nonsense they had to come up with for the traveler to barely defeat her speaks volumes for their absurd difference in power.

That aside, why would the Shogun or Ei scale to the speed of lightning from a storm they created?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

You literally can't dodge it tho. All you can do is get out of the way before it even strikes and that simply doesn't qualify as dodging.

the only reason you can get out of the way is that the game gives you an indicator of it hitting which is game mechanics limitation
Zelda games have always had a game mechanic that literally makes beam that is considered light speed in lore react and move as if they are not but is still accepted as such in calculations

It meeting the requirements doesn't mean a thing if there are several things going directly against it always being as fast as lightning. It simply causes tons of contradictions and goes against actual cutscenes which should be treated >>> in game attacks locked behind AR which can be completely avoided. You can literally play this entire game without ever even seeing that attack. Also, the way superconduction works in Genshin is way different than irl . . .

And you can also play this game meeting those attacks because just because you can do it normally around doesn't mean it is not possible that it has been tried the otherway around.

explain to me then what happens when lightning or electricity hits ice

The traveler didn't escape. Ei let them out after knocking them out. Also, are you implying that the traveler with 100 visions is comparable to base traveler!? Wouldn't the far simpler assumption be that Ei wasn't taking them serious at all? She literally used her naginata to defeat the traveler in the first encounter, not her tachi. After defeating Signora the Shogun also makes it pretty clear that the only reason why she isn't dusting them like she just did Signora is because they won the duel. Before the traveler got the deus ex Teppei it was never a real fight.

never said anything like that. you're being pedantic with the word escape when I meant it in a way that traveler managed to get away since she was let go but that's beside the point because the point is that he still fought Ei and Ei was testing him, in addition to that traveler is holding himself on the 2nd encounter before getting buffed to the extreme. and if you missed it as well Ei was using her lightning and electro attacks during the first fight while testing you and also during the 2nd encounter when your goal is to survive until you get buffed. again never did I say we are using buffed traveler and you can see how I'm point specifically before that happened.

May I ask if you played her story quest? She literally didn't know about the condition of the storm or even what happens inside of Inazuma. Not being able to bridge to Inazuma is game mechanics stopping you from doing something you arent supposed to do. This kinds stuff exists in tons of games.

mistake on my point. but this is just one there are multitudes of other reasons to qualify the speed calc

That's an antifeat for you tho? I mean, we even have regular people fleeing by using a basic raft.

that is more of a feat for Kazuha specially how he is an anemo and could potentially use his vision to navigate his raft using his winds. unless you want to say natural lightning in genshin is not natural lightning and kazuha is just peak human for achieving that

Becuase the gap in power between them was made very apparent. The amount of times it's been stated and shown and the amount of plot nonsense they had to come up with for the traveler to barely defeat her speaks volumes for their absurd difference in power.

but the fight still happened and she is still attacked by her electro attacks not just naginata waving.

That aside, why would the Shogun or Ei scale to the speed of lightning from a storm they created?

Clear skies can do nothing to hide the brilliance of lightning. Divine bolts can strike even in the absence of rain. Do you see that tree? Wait...you understand? So... demonstration is not required? Good. - Raiden Dialogue.
Raiden commands lightning bolts and always does use them in her attacks during the fight, to use it against someone and have someone avoid or react to it would make them scale to that speed and so does the one whom the attacked fought.

 

[RatherClueless]

the only reason you can get out of the way is that the game gives you an indicator of it hitting which is game mechanics limitation

Huh? That isn't game mechanics tho, but a stylistic choice. The lightning itself is still undodgeable, with or without it, which is a conscious decision they made, considering that they have several "lightning" attacks that aren't instant.

Zelda games have always had a game mechanic that literally makes beam that is considered light speed in lore react and move as if they are not but is still accepted as such in calculations

That's a Zelda issue. Also, you should probably read up on what game mechanics are. Not everything that isn't 100% like it'd be irl is automatically "game mechanics".
A laser being shown to be slower than their irl counterpart is simply a bad portrail of a laser, not game mechanics. Sadly even though the page straight up says "It is also important to remember the fundamental meaning of the term, and not arbitrarily use it when it is inappropriate." people do it anyways.

And you can also play this game meeting those attacks because just because you can do it normally around doesn't mean it is not possible that it has been tried the otherway around.

I am not saying they are invalid or can't be used. I am saying they aren't as good as other showings. If those showings are contradictory, the ones with "more validity" should be considered first.

explain to me then what happens when lightning or electricity hits ice

Superconduction is when you cool something down to allow electricity to pass through it at greater rates. Or in other words, superconduction should increase electro damage, not physical.

again never did I say we are using buffed traveler and you can see how I'm point specifically before that happened.

That's the logical conclusion. If the traveler is relative to Ei and Ei is relative to 100 vision traveler, then 100 vision traveler is (at least somewhat) relative to base traveler. They simply aren't comparable. There really isn't a debate to be had here at all.

that is more of a feat for Kazuha specially how he is an anemo and could potentially use his vision to navigate his raft using his winds. unless you want to say natural lightning in genshin is not natural lightning and kazuha is just peak human for achieving that

I am saying that getting out of Inazuma is possible for anyone with enough luck. We don't even know whether Kazuha used his vision. He might have. He might not. We dont know.

but the fight still happened and she is still attacked by her electro attacks not just naginata waving.

Raiden commands lightning bolts and always does use them in her attacks during the fight, to use it against someone and have someone avoid or react to it would make them scale to that speed and so does the one whom the attacked fought.

She literally just waves her Naginata tho. After that the traveler gets hit by a bunch of lightning strikes (all 1 frame). Also, I wanted to know why the Shogun or Ei physically scale to that. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Huh? That isn't game mechanics tho, but a stylistic choice. The lightning itself is still undodgeable, with or without it, which is a conscious decision they made, considering that they have several "lightning" attacks that aren't instant.

it is dodgeable but more of dodging before it strikes or dodging with iframes which is debatable as game mechanics or not (or just plain acrobatics) but fine. I'll stay neutral regarding natural lightning interaction with game.

That's a Zelda issue. Also, you should probably read up on what game mechanics are. Not everything that isn't 100% like it'd be irl is automatically "game mechanics".
A laser being shown to be slower than their irl counterpart is simply a bad portrail of a laser, not game mechanics. Sadly even though the page straight up says "It is also important to remember the fundamental meaning of the term, and not arbitrarily use it when it is inappropriate." people do it anyways.

I guess is more leniency within the forum, nevertheless, the lightning attacks should still scale with Archons especially those who fought in Khaneriah or at their peak just not to the rest of the cast

I am not saying they are invalid or can't be used. I am saying they aren't as good as other showings. If those showings are contradictory, the ones with "more validity" should be considered first.

That's the issue with it but I guess I would have to agree that it has to go with something more backing even though it would be likely for traveler to experience it firsthand.

Superconduction is when you cool something down to allow electricity to pass through it at greater rates. Or in other words, superconduction should increase electro damage, not physical.

sorry I wasn't clear on this question. I'm aware superconduct doesn't make sense especially how it should only work on metals well realistically, but either way, my question is specifically about frozen entities. because the goal right now at least is to prove electro functions like real lightning/electricity. which is the question of whether or not dodging that Electro Cicin mage lightning is valid as a reaction speed or becoming massively hypersonic.
for once the whole Massively hypersonic rating comes from razor and Lisa for being able to do lightning from a storm. Lisa Violet Arc by description allows her to call lightning from the cloud and her doing so while holding her skill generates storm clouds, this is also consistent with Razor, its really simple as that they create thunderclouds with their electro vision. that is one proof
Mutant electro slime being purely made by coalescing of electro also his this description
Electro samachurl also has the ability to call thunder
there is also abyss lector. though some other electro-type enemies often just infused their attacks with electro, it is clear that a lot of people who directly manipulate electro also manipulate lightning or call upon lightning. that alone should be sufficient for Lisa's E and Razor E being able to create storm clouds by summoning lightning with their attacks as proof that Electro is indeed a valid way to generate lightning and electricity.

I am saying that getting out of Inazuma is possible for anyone with enough luck. We don't even know whether Kazuha used his vision. He might have. He might not. We dont know.

there isn't really much to talk about here since it all happened behind curtains, but it still stands that its a feat, whether that is luck or not or skill, doesn't matter

She literally just waves her Naginata tho. After that the traveler gets hit by a bunch of lightning strikes (all 1 frame). Also, I wanted to know why the Shogun or Ei physically scale to that. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Naginata waving that also summons lightning or electro-infused attacks.

So far there is a lot more on the description that supports Electro allowing you to manipulate lightning and electricity and feats performed by Lisa and Razor are testament to that in-game at the very least if not the other entities who have description to command lightning and Raiden dialogue of being able to call lightning even without thundercloud also gives it special properties that allow them to create lightning without the need of thunderclouds. while the others would appear more like a bad portrayal, but even so Traveler still fought against enemies that summon lightning, just because some don't appear to move as fast as electricity or lightning doesn't mean everything else doesn't. at the very least it is a probable limitation because you don't want your players to perceive electro attacks as real lightning and become completely unpercievable.

 

[Vietthai96]

feat must come from cutscene, not gameplay

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

never is that stated and it's more of a case-by-case basis, if we rely solely on cutscene we will be limited by options. but that doesn't mean we should over-rely on gameplay mechanics as well.

A lot of games have their powers only available in gameplay although for the most case they are limited or simplified such us some explosion that should destroy a wall won't destroy it and such

also, it is not uncommon for characters on a open world to be able to affect their environment and being qualified for such

that is also the reason why we have Game Mechanics page to avoid over-relying on game mechanics to put limitations on characters or to rate a character higher than they are.

gameplay can be as valid as cutscene depending on context
and for the one I shared the fight started with traveler and Ei with only talking distance between them but the cutscene started him far away from her before finally being buffed to an extreme
that alone is more than enough reason that a battle has happened even before the 2nd cutscene

 

[Vietthai96]

again giving some abilities via gameplay is fine case by case, but we don't go around giving speed, ap, durability feat via gameplay. Cutscene is is a must in this case, interacting with environment is just a part of game mechanic and feature allow for more immersion feeling when play, we don't give rating like that solely based on gameplay

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

that is to be agreed upon by the decision of majority and staff, which IIRC there hasn't been a single staff approval. but my decision stands and I won't press anyone to decide like me and go with what majority wants to consider or decide upon

 

[RatherClueless]

for once the whole Massively hypersonic rating comes from razor and Lisa for being able to do lightning from a storm. Lisa Violet Arc by description allows her to call lightning from the cloud and her doing so while holding her skill generates storm clouds, this is also consistent with Razor, its really simple as that they create thunderclouds with their electro vision. that is one proof

I fail to see how exactly that qualifies as a speed feat.

that alone should be sufficient for Lisa's E and Razor E being able to create storm clouds by summoning lightning with their attacks as proof that Electro is indeed a valid way to generate lightning and electricity.

The fact that Razor and Lisa scale above all of these mobs and need to summon storm clouds over an extended period of time to call upon a far smaller lightning bolt kind of puts the validity of these feats into question. Especially since Ei kinda makes a pretty big deal out of not needing clouds to summon lightning. A samachurl being able to do the same would be quite weird. Not to mention that mobs can't actually dodge Lisa's or Razor's lightning.

Naginata waving that also summons lightning or electro-infused attacks.

You literally can't dodge those either. Also, being electro infused really doesn't mean anything in terms of speed.

So far there is a lot more on the description that supports Electro allowing you to manipulate lightning and electricity and feats performed by Lisa and Razor are testament to that in-game at the very least if not the other entities who have description to command lightning and Raiden dialogue of being able to call lightning even without thundercloud also gives it special properties that allow them to create lightning without the need of thunderclouds

My issue isn't the manipulation of electricity but that the speed greatly fluctuates. There certainly are some lightning bolts that move at the speed of lightning, as they are, well, real lightning, while also being depicted to move this fast (only taking one frame), but all of them are literally undodgable.

while the others would appear more like a bad portrayal, but even so Traveler still fought against enemies that summon lightning

That doesn't really mean anything when in all cinematics where there is (real) lightning aimed at the traveler they get hit and all in game attacks where there is (real) lightning are undodgeable.

just because some don't appear to move as fast as electricity or lightning doesn't mean everything else doesn't. at the very least it is a probable limitation because you don't want your players to perceive electro attacks as real lightning and become completely unpercievable.

Um, there are several cases of lightning being literally undodgeable and only taking one frame, which is as fast as it possibly can be (literally instantanious). Both in game and in cinematics.

it is dodgeable but more of dodging before it strikes or dodging with iframes which is debatable as game mechanics or not (or just plain acrobatics) but fine. I'll stay neutral regarding natural lightning interaction with game.

Iframes sure as heck isn't dodging, as that would mean using a burst is dodging. Moving before the lightning strikes is aim dodging.

I guess is more leniency within the forum, nevertheless, the lightning attacks should still scale with Archons especially those who fought in Khaneriah or at their peak just not to the rest of the cast

Why? Honestly, I am not too big of an opponent of Archons being that fast, but I'd still need a valid feat of that.

but either way, my question is specifically about frozen entities.

Not sure what you mean.

Mutant electro slime being purely made by coalescing of electro also his this description
Electro samachurl also has the ability to call thunder
there is also abyss lector.

Let's do these one by one.
Slime: Not dodgeable. Also, for a being made of electricity it's quite slow. "It's for the sake of allowing the player to react" won't hold here at all, considering it simply is one of the slowest mobs in the game.
Electro Samachurl: Thunder isn't lightning. It's simply the sound and it's pretty clear that's what is meant here as it continues with "you may as well use the crackling sound to compose an elegy". Also, like I said earlier, Lisa and Razor needing a storm to summon lightning and the Shogun making a point out of not needing clouds goes against the samachurls attacks being actual lightning.
Abyss Lector: Has several moves depicted as vastly slower than lightning that suck out your energy. One attack has a huge indicator on the ground and is instantanious. The other one takes 2 frames but doesn't even really aim for you.

Also, aim dodging and understanding an opponents patterns are a canonical thing as that's literally what the anti Raiden Shogun training was about.

but it still stands that its a feat, whether that is luck or not or skill, doesn't matter

A feat of what exactly? Luck? I really can't see how this is anything, really.


Anyways, about the "Cutscene vs Gameplay" argument. Unless the cutscene is really questionable and the gameplay very explicit, cutscene > gameplay. Feats from gameplay can still be used however. Well, for as long as they aren't either down right awful in their depiction or clearly fall under game mechanics.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

 

[RatherClueless]

When you think someone replied but it's just a bump. Rip.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

When you think someone replied but it's just a bump. Rip.

Well, recently many of Genshin supporters went "dormant", dunno why