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I don't see how meat is all that different from fire (in terms of being the product of stuff, rather than a thing), but maybe that should be another thread.
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Elemental Manipulation Page Removal
- Thread starter Bobsican
- Start date
- Status
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,180
- 6,094
- Thread starter
- #123
There's still the matter of doing some things if the page is to remain, even if only out of no one wanting to actually fix the pages and it's deemed best to just stick to it in lack of other options:
1: Elemental Manipulation's usage for indexing being optional.
After all, by itself it covers nothing, and just listing directly each "subset" of it is about as effective.
2: The category "Element Users" being added to all characters that have at least two or more of its "subsets" regardless of if Elemental Manipulation is actually listed or not.
Now I'm mentioning the other alternative I said I was going to say before, if this page is to remain, all characters that have two or more powers that are considered "subsets" (As in, listed) within Elemental Manipulation get the Element Users category, this helps to remain consistent on regards of this "power" and eases finding pages that meet this criteria.
If the above is accepted, the Elemental Manipulation page should also be edited accordingly to keep the aspects above clear.
1: Elemental Manipulation's usage for indexing being optional.
After all, by itself it covers nothing, and just listing directly each "subset" of it is about as effective.
2: The category "Element Users" being added to all characters that have at least two or more of its "subsets" regardless of if Elemental Manipulation is actually listed or not.
Now I'm mentioning the other alternative I said I was going to say before, if this page is to remain, all characters that have two or more powers that are considered "subsets" (As in, listed) within Elemental Manipulation get the Element Users category, this helps to remain consistent on regards of this "power" and eases finding pages that meet this criteria.
If the above is accepted, the Elemental Manipulation page should also be edited accordingly to keep the aspects above clear.
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@The_King_of_Prudence meat has nothing to do with classic elemental in any way or form. At least light and darkness technically are elements, or at least many series do treat them like elements. They just aren’t true classical ones.
Meat is much more related to life manipulation and modern elements than it does stuff like fire and wind.
@Ant
I think we could possibly add a note to elemental manipulation either saying some profiles have unique elements or we should explain why darkness and light are on the page. I didn’t make the page, so I don’t know why they were included, but if I had to guess it’s because those two are heavily related and often mistaken as classical elements.
For this thread I would personally say it’s good to close and either today or later we can make a thread to list vague power descriptions. Not just elemental manipulation, just powers with little description in general so instead of making a ton of mini CRTs we can just have a big one to clean up to profiles.
When it comes to closing the thread that’s up to you and other staff.
@Bob
I would be perfectly fine with adding the categories to pages, since they do have those powers it is just listed in a different way.
Meat is much more related to life manipulation and modern elements than it does stuff like fire and wind.
@Ant
I think we could possibly add a note to elemental manipulation either saying some profiles have unique elements or we should explain why darkness and light are on the page. I didn’t make the page, so I don’t know why they were included, but if I had to guess it’s because those two are heavily related and often mistaken as classical elements.
For this thread I would personally say it’s good to close and either today or later we can make a thread to list vague power descriptions. Not just elemental manipulation, just powers with little description in general so instead of making a ton of mini CRTs we can just have a big one to clean up to profiles.
When it comes to closing the thread that’s up to you and other staff.
@Bob
I would be perfectly fine with adding the categories to pages, since they do have those powers it is just listed in a different way.
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Are there different mythologies/cultures that include different elements that include all of the ones listed in the page? If not, some of them should be removed, yes.
Also, to answer Bobsican, I am fine with us adding a note to the page regarding that it whould be specified within a parenthesis which elements that a character can manipulate, but am definitely not willing to start a project for searching through all the pages of the wiki to add Elemental Manipulation to all pages that contain any combination of elemental powers.
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Most cultures seems to just have it be earth, wind/electricity, fire, and water/ice. Darkness and Light should possibly be removed for elemental manipulation as a page, but I’m not sure if it would be worth the time. Some pages like OFF definitely need to be edited, it clearly didn’t understand what elemental manipulation is supposed to be.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,180
- 6,094
- Thread starter
- #128
Oh no, I didn't mean it like that, as by that point removing the power altogether would be an easier revision, but rather if doing so (Adding the category even if Elemental Manipulation itself isn't listed) is allowed in the first place or not.
Similarly, I also think the page should also clarify if the power is optional for the usage of indexing regarding its "subsets" (Example, Air Manipulation, Fire Manipulation), or not.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,180
- 6,094
- Thread starter
- #130
That still doesn't explicitly answers if the first and second points would be fine or not, although it does clarify that several should be listed to let it be allowed for use, these issues probably also affect similarly the Status Effect Inducement page.
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What points are you referring to?
Also, how would this affect the status effect inducement page?
In any case, I am extremely overworked, and we have several unfinished far more genuinely important wiki revision projects to deal with, so I cannot constantly accommodate your (and other members') stream of new comparatively minor obsessive-compulsive fixations. At least not until far more important issues have been properly dealt with. My apologies, but you need to try to get your perfectionistic compulsions somewhat under control... and yes, I am aware of that I have a similar problem, but I at least try to use prioritisation and common sense in this regard as well as I am able.
Also, how would this affect the status effect inducement page?
In any case, I am extremely overworked, and we have several unfinished far more genuinely important wiki revision projects to deal with, so I cannot constantly accommodate your (and other members') stream of new comparatively minor obsessive-compulsive fixations. At least not until far more important issues have been properly dealt with. My apologies, but you need to try to get your perfectionistic compulsions somewhat under control... and yes, I am aware of that I have a similar problem, but I at least try to use prioritisation and common sense in this regard as well as I am able.
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I'd much prefer the pages to say "Fire Manipulation, Water Manipulation, yada yada yada" than "Elemental Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Water Manipulation, yada yada yada", in which I think the ability is redundant. Just mention what element is manipulated separately. So I don't have a problem with its removal tbh.
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Once again that’s not how we write elemental manipulation though. Everyone keeps strawmaning it by thinking we add the subset powers to the profile after adding elemental manipulation. We don’t, because we already have elemental manipulation on the profile.
We have a description, a description the individual elements should already have.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,180
- 6,094
- Thread starter
- #135
I already highlighted the issues several times, and how it's better if we didn't have this redundant page that promoted inconsistent formatting and having to follow double links to reach certain pages, let alone it messing the act of finding pages based on what's linked and how categories are easier to miss out of such powers not being linked directly. I still really think it would be better to remove the power than to keep it, it's more counterproductive than not.
As for this, I suppose I'll go into more detail this time, if this page is to stay out of removing it not being worth the effort for you or similar:
- The act of adding the "Element Users" category to character pages that have two or more of its "subsets" listed, even if Elemental Manipulation itself isn't listed (For example, a page that just says "Fire Manipulation, Water Manipulation"), namely if doing this is fine or not, as doing some site-wide revision to ensure this being the case would be harder than just removing Elemental Manipulation and all.
- Clarifying if using Elemental Manipulation is obligatory for indexing or not in the page, as in, whether if a page that does the above has to be edited to list it by using such power or not, although it likely isn't the case, as similarly it's too much to ask for and it would be easier to remove that one page, but confirmation is still pending, at least in here for posterity.
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Double linking isn’t a issue in this case at all. Liter Every human being should know what elements do by default for reasons completely unrelated to this site. Everyone knows the elements and everyone knows what they do, practically nobody ever is going to click on a elements page to read its description. And even if they do need to click one other link, it is such a minor inconvenience that even being it up is more trouble then it’s worth.
For site navigation just add the categories when you can, simple. Removing elemental manipulation would need us to do this very fast so pages don’t link to a power that is nuked, adding categories can be done at anytime.
For consistency: multiple profiles look vastly different from each other already from how people make profiles in general. Also some people do prefer saying elemental manipulation then listing a description over listing every individual sub power. Consistence is entirely a subjective matter.
For site navigation just add the categories when you can, simple. Removing elemental manipulation would need us to do this very fast so pages don’t link to a power that is nuked, adding categories can be done at anytime.
For consistency: multiple profiles look vastly different from each other already from how people make profiles in general. Also some people do prefer saying elemental manipulation then listing a description over listing every individual sub power. Consistence is entirely a subjective matter.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,180
- 6,094
- Thread starter
- #137
By that logic we wouldn't have pages for this kind of powers just because "it's obvious", wikies just don't work like that.
Except that if the page is removed there's nothing to worry about this long-term.
The consistency matters far more regarding the above issue.
Except that if the page is removed there's nothing to worry about this long-term.
The consistency matters far more regarding the above issue.
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Just because there could be other issues, issues I disagree with, doesn’t mean the consistency is a issue. I’ve never seen consistency be a problem on this site. It’s a non issue you are bring up to make this power seem worse. Inconsistencies come up far more from how people make profiles vs anything actually on them. Should I remind you the difference between profiles that have tabbers vs the ones that don’t.
if the page is removed, that is a long term issue. Since it would take a crap ton of time and work to remove it. The small improvements it needs can be done whenever people want to do them. If the power is removed the work has to start immediately
if the page is removed, that is a long term issue. Since it would take a crap ton of time and work to remove it. The small improvements it needs can be done whenever people want to do them. If the power is removed the work has to start immediately
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Just a note that we would need to remove the ability from almost 1,500 pages, and recurrently likely have to replace it with the component abilities as well.
vsbattles.fandom.com
Pages that link to "Elemental Manipulation" | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom
vsbattles.fandom.com
azontr
He/Him- 39,447
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The bad far outweighs the good for this. You'd have to remove the ability from literally every page that has it, and then make separate pages for each ability that has anything to do with manipulating elements. That is so counter-intuitive it quite literally doesn't make sense.
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And that series treats meat as an element. It's probably a joke about how weird classical elements are from a modern standpoint.
Fire is a chemical reaction, while the others are all mixtures of known smaller things.
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Not for people reading it.
azontr
He/Him- 39,447
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Yeah but it's such a minor change across so many pages that it quite literally doesn't matter, your putting in more work for making something that is already easy enough to read even easier for no reason. EM is fine as is.
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Agreed. We have considerably more important revisions projects to focus on.
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Except whether elemental manipulation is good to read or not is entirely subjective. If you mean the half a second that could possibly be wasted by needed to go to the elemental page to go to the subset page, then that’s meaningless to bring up. Seriously who clicks on these pages more than once and why would we need to nuke a power and have a site wide revision over it. Think about what you are pushing for versus what is there. A shit ton of work for a personal pet peeve.
Unrelated but when it comes to OFF treating meat as an element that’s just OFF being moronic, it shouldn’t effect our site at all. Just list it as organic manipulation by itself, it’s not an element. Light and Darkness are barely acceptable and that’s because one: they are a common mistake so it happens often (I mentioned a character profile I’m making earlier, their game also thinks light and darkness are elements), second it is already on elemental manipulation’s page for a long time so fixing it would be difficult. However if people are willing to remove light and darkness then I’ll be on board with that due to it having an objective reason to be fixed. That could also be done over time since the whole power won’t be nuked, just a single thing would need to change on some profiles.
However I just don’t think anything other than adding categories and proper descriptions should come out of this. The other stuff is incredibly minor and the description part is something we should have been doing far more often. Like that should be it’s own thread to be a friendly reminder to everyone that descriptions are very important.
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Quirky, not moronic. I could easily say water being an element is just past people not knowing stuff, and shouldn't affect our site at all. Just list it as water manipulation by itself, it's not an element.
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It went pretty far with it, but I guess I am now derailing.
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I always find it weird when I’m the one asked what to do. I’m work in like 5 minutes so I’ll probably explain better later.
But a thread about adding descriptions to powers on profiles should be made. I can think of many profiles that have a ton of powers, with zero description, and because of that the profiles are poorly explained and don’t have justifications.
Whenever people notice a page with elemental manipulation and have free time they should or can add categories to the page of the sub powers.
Finally either another thread should be made so we can edit profiles with poor elemental manipulation descriptions, or that can be added to the other thread on descriptions so people can edit profiles without getting in trouble. Like a heads up that they are just cleaning up the profiles and adding much needed descriptions and justifications without needing to make a crap ton of mini CRTs.
Though once again I don’t like it when I’m solely asked because it makes it seem like their isn’t a side that disagrees with my opinion on elemental manipulation. Granted I highly doubt what they want can happen now, even if it going to happen, because this site has a lot of big changes happening right now.
But I think proper descriptions to powers is a big thing worthy of being worked on right now.
But a thread about adding descriptions to powers on profiles should be made. I can think of many profiles that have a ton of powers, with zero description, and because of that the profiles are poorly explained and don’t have justifications.
Whenever people notice a page with elemental manipulation and have free time they should or can add categories to the page of the sub powers.
Finally either another thread should be made so we can edit profiles with poor elemental manipulation descriptions, or that can be added to the other thread on descriptions so people can edit profiles without getting in trouble. Like a heads up that they are just cleaning up the profiles and adding much needed descriptions and justifications without needing to make a crap ton of mini CRTs.
Though once again I don’t like it when I’m solely asked because it makes it seem like their isn’t a side that disagrees with my opinion on elemental manipulation. Granted I highly doubt what they want can happen now, even if it going to happen, because this site has a lot of big changes happening right now.
But I think proper descriptions to powers is a big thing worthy of being worked on right now.
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I think that we have a general thread for adjusting powers and abilities pages already, but cannot seem to find it. Bobsican might be able to help you out in that regard.
I can probably add a "Elemental Manipulation Users" category to characters with this ability listed with an automated script with my Bot account.
I can probably add a "Elemental Manipulation Users" category to characters with this ability listed with an automated script with my Bot account.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,180
- 6,094
- Thread starter
- #154
Note that we currently focus far more on indexing the powers individually for a reason, are we going to start making more pages that list a bunch of powers like this as well? No, and that's because this issue isn't being taken as not really being one to begin with, but simply one that's "minor" enought to be ignored, at least for now.
Anyways, while we do have a thread for adjusting powers, more controversial takes like what happened in this thread can have their own CRT as needed, and the category over "Elemental Manipulation" is named "Element Users", not "Elemental Manipulation Users", unless you want to do a rename as well, Ant.
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Oh that thread isn’t what I meant. Unless it changes a bit later on. What I meant is that powers on profiles need to have better descriptions. Like don’t just put invisibility on a profile explain what they can turn invisible and how they can turn stuff invisible (if we know how). That thread seems to be over the powers themselves.
Also when talking about categories I was referring to what Bob said earlier. Adding the sub set power categories to the profiles, like fire and ice if the elemental user has them. I think the pages already have elemental user as a category.
Also when talking about categories I was referring to what Bob said earlier. Adding the sub set power categories to the profiles, like fire and ice if the elemental user has them. I think the pages already have elemental user as a category.
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Well, maybe we should slightly rename the title/redefine the purpose of the thread then, as Bobsican appeared to suggest above?
Okay. That seems too time-consuming though, especially as the characters with this ability listed are not consistently able to manipulate all of the elements.
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What are the current standards for someone have ''Elemental Manip'' in their profiles? They need to show all powers that are in that page?
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