2-C Dragon Ball Super upgrade

[FluffyCreatureZ]

New scaling
Half 2-C : God of destruction toppo "he was stated to be a god of destruction, has the mindset, abilities of one, threw away his morals to become one and he is ghe candidate for being the GoD of U11." Ssbe vegeta "since he defeated toppo duh" ssbkk20 goku since his performance against jiren was relatively the same as ssbe vegeta, indicating that they are at the same level of strength. UI sign 3 base gogeta, and possibly ikari broly.
2-C : "UI sign 3 possibly?" Full power jiren, and MUI goku. "Possibly base gogeta, ssj broly, ssj gogeta, lssj broly, ssb gogeta.

Ikari broly I don't agree he is equal to blue which is way weaker than ssbk20, supressed jiren clapped both ssbe and ssbk20 goku and vegeta so he gets 2-C along with ui sign 3 goku and full power jiren. The rest is good.

 

[Orange]

Ikari broly I don't agree he is equal to blue which is way weaker than ssbk20, supressed jiren clapped both ssbe and ssbk20 goku and vegeta so he gets 2-C along with ui sign 3 goku and full power jiren. The rest is good.

Ikari broly have only possibly but I agree with you nonetheless.
I'll edit the changes

 

[AKM sama]

What is the current argument and why is this thread still ongoing for nearly 800 comments?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

What is the current argument and why is this thread still ongoing for nearly 800 comments?

We have proof for toppo scaling to the other GoDs via vados' statement which impacts the scaling heavily like this.

New scaling
Half 2-C : God of destruction toppo "he was stated to be a god of destruction, has the mindset, abilities of one, threw away his morals to become one and he is ghe candidate for being the GoD of U11." Ssbe vegeta "since he defeated toppo duh" ssbkk20 goku since his performance against jiren was relatively the same as ssbe vegeta, indicating that they are at the same level of strength. UI sign 2&3, possibly base gogeta.
2-C : "UI sign 3 possibly?" suppressed jiren. Full power jiren, and MUI goku. "Possibly base gogeta, ssj broly, ssj gogeta, lssj broly, ssb gogeta.

And we also have proof that stomping in DB requires 2x your opponent which is in the original post.

 

[AKM sama]

We have proof for toppo scaling to the other GoDs via vados' statement which impacts the scaling heavily like this.

I don't know which statement you're talking about here, but none of Vados' statements have ever implied that. Toppo is much weaker than Beerus who is still considered a lot stronger than SSBE Vegeta.

And we also have proof that stomping in DB requires 2x your opponent which is in the original post.

I don't think such a proof exists. It's inconsistent. We've been over this.

 

[YukaSama4]

she just said 2 GoDs can destroy 2 universes and it didn't appear that they were serious or going all out, so I doon't see a problem with toppo scaling.

You can tell from the context and how their fight went that they were serious

We have proof for toppo scaling to the other GoDs via vados' statement which impacts the scaling heavily like this.

her statement doesnt prove that Toppo scales to the 12 GoDs...

And we also have proof that stomping in DB requires 2x your opponent which is in the original post.

this needs a separate thread ig

 

[Orange]

I don't know which statement you're talking about here, but none of Vados' statements have ever implied that. Toppo is much weaker than Beerus who is still considered a lot stronger than SSBE Vegeta.


I don't think such a proof exists. It's inconsistent. We've been over this.

For starter, too scales above That statement because he is a literal god or destruction, being the weakest one really doesn't matter since that statement refers to all of gods of destruction , which toppo is one.
Jiren would still scale since he manhandled two gods of destruction opponents, Ui sign 3 which is a above sssbe vegeta and post UI sign 2 ssbkk20 goku withbease, slapping them, dodging them and treating them like trash without using his full power and being supressed

 

[Orange]

You can tell from the context and how their fight went that they were serious

her statement doesnt prove that Toppo scales to the 12 GoDs...

this needs a separate thread ig

The fight was them fighting non seriously, the second one was a result of one of them insulting the other.
Clearly serious
Her statement proves that if two gods of destruction fought, two universe sized space times would get destroyed, since toppo is a God of destruction he would scale to half of that like every other god

 

[Teezar]

Well personally, warping up a dimension that's above 12/18 universes in size, giving trouble to ssbe vegeta and blue goku.
Actually toppo for blw showed the highest feats in ap in all of the God's baring champa and beerus.

Warping the world of void,how is it an AP feat?

And even if he was the weakest god of destruction, the statement scales nonetheless sooo

What statement?

 

[YukaSama4]

For starter, too scales above That statement because he is a literal god or destruction, being the weakest one really doesn't matter since that statement refers to all of gods of destruction , which toppo is one

We know that Toppo isnt on their level, it was stated that Jiren is the mortal whom cant be defeated by a GoD, Toppo never had such a thing, thus he is weaker than a real GoD.

The fight was them fighting non seriously, the second one was a result of one of them insulting the other.
Clearly serious

They were serious in 2 situations.

Her statement proves that if two gods of destruction fought, two universe sized space times would get destroyed, since toppo is a God of destruction he would scale to half of that like every other god

and then u need to prove that Toppo scales to a real GoD which u cant, Jiren was considered impressive throughout all the arc because he is the only mortal who reached the level of a true GoD, possibly higher, even Toei stated that Jiren’s full power is said to be at the level of GoD, and yet Toppo said to Goku that if u are equal to me you have no chance of winning against Jiren

 

[YukaSama4]

unless there is a proof that Toppo is on the level of 12 GoDs, this should not be taken, a statement that Toppo has become a GoD doesnt prove anything, Merus is an angel and he is still not on the level of any of the 12 angels, that small GoD said that Goku and Toppo are already on their level, but then Beerus one shotted Vegeta who is far stronger than Toppo and Goku.
As I said reached the level of GoD should not be taken literally unless we have a supportive evidence or explanation that implies that he is on the level of the 12 GoDs, thats my opinion on this matter honestly

 

[Orange]

Warping the world of void,how is it an AP feat?

What statement?

The statement that if two gods of destruction it would mean the end of two universe

 

[RisingIons]

Toppo with a heavily restricted hakai (because he can't kill) warped the infinite world of void and seriously damaged Frieza while knocking him out of his gold form. SSJ Broly beat Golden Frieza for over an hour and he didn't revert, and mostly dominated the fight against SSJ Gogeta. Vegeta needed a power amp on top of SSBE to overcome hakai.

Sidra made Frieza sweat with a fraction of his power and his own Supreme Kai stated Frieza would be too much for them. He's powerful by association, not by feats, and non-god characters have done better with far less.

 

[Orange]

We know that Toppo isnt on their level, it was stated that Jiren is the mortal whom cant be defeated by a GoD, Toppo never had such a thing, thus he is weaker than a real GoD.

They were serious in 2 situations.

and then u need to prove that Toppo scales to a real GoD which u cant, Jiren was considered impressive throughout all the arc because he is the only mortal who reached the level of a true GoD, possibly higher, even Toei stated that Jiren’s full power is said to be at the level of GoD, and yet Toppo said to Goku that if u are equal to me you have no chance of winning against Jiren

Ah yes, because toppo was directly stated to be the weakest god, and was stated that he is at the lower pole .
And even if he is the wekaest god, the statement still applies to him so I don't know what are you trying to achieve

 

[Orange]

unless there is a proof that Toppo is on the level of 12 GoDs, this should not be taken, a statement that Toppo has become a GoD doesnt prove anything, Merus is an angel and he is still not on the level of any of the 12 angels, that small GoD said that Goku and Toppo are already on their level, but then Beerus one shotted Vegeta who is far stronger than Toppo and Goku.
As I said reached the level of GoD should not be taken literally unless we have a supportive evidence or explanation that implies that he is on the level of the 12 GoDs, thats my opinion on this matter honestly

What does meerus has to do with anything?
Just because He is the next candidate for being a god, he su stated to be no different from a God, has the same abilities and mindset of a God, his is a god, stated to be a god.
Yet he doesn't scale to a rule all of gods of destruction scales to? Even tho he is a god of destruction himself

 

[sanicspood]

this ***** still going

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I don't know which statement you're talking about here, but none of Vados' statements have ever implied that. Toppo is much weaker than Beerus who is still considered a lot stronger than SSBE Vegeta.

Vados statement 2:03. I wanna see why Toppo is weaker than beerus and why beerus is a lot stronger than vegeta even though this wasn't shown. Toppo scaling to the GoDs makes sense since even featless GoDs scale to this statement.

I don't think such a proof exists. It's inconsistent. We've been over this.

It's on the daizenshuu 7 which is approved by toriyama, it's on DB wiki, it's consistent in the show like half power gohan losing to cell but full power oblitering or how vegeta vs goku doesn't contradict this because less than 2x multipliers don't completely stomp the other and there are other examples as well that require even more than 2x to overpower like kaioken goku vs hit and more examples.

her statement doesnt prove that Toppo scales to the 12 GoDs...

why not? He's a GoD, and featless GoDs scale to this statement so he scales too.

 

[Teezar]

The statement that if two gods of destruction it would mean the end of two universe

Yh,beerus and champa and toppo ain't in beerus league.

 

[DivineAura44]

this ***** still going

This is so funny because it's probably gonna amount to nothing or result in a downgrade.

 

[Orange]

Yh,beerus and champa and toppo ain't in beerus league.

Yes, they're all at the level of gods.
Who's stronger than who literally doesn't even matter since toppo scales of that statement

 

[Teezar]

Yes, they're all at the level of gods.
Who's stronger than who literally doesn't even matter since toppo scales of that statement

Send scans of the statement.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Vados statement 2:03. I wanna see why Toppo is weaker than beerus and why beerus is a lot stronger than vegeta even though this wasn't shown. Toppo scaling to the GoDs makes sense since even featless GoDs scale to this statement.

Send scans of the statement.

 

[RisingIons]

Toppo with a heavily restricted hakai (because he can't kill) warped the infinite world of void and seriously damaged Frieza while knocking him out of his gold form. SSJ Broly beat Golden Frieza for over an hour and he didn't revert, and mostly dominated the fight against SSJ Gogeta. Vegeta needed a power amp on top of SSBE to overcome hakai.

Sidra made Frieza sweat with a fraction of his power and his own Supreme Kai stated Frieza would be too much for them. He's powerful by association, not by feats, and non-god characters have done better with far less.

cough

 

[Orange]

If gods of destruction fought with ea h other, it would result the destruction of both universes.
And guess what? Toppo is a god of destruction.Guess what? He was stated as such by the narrator, the title of the episode, belmod and his kai.
His name is also literally "the god of destruction Toppo".
He has the same ki, same mindset, same abilities, stated to be no different from a god, he is the candidate for being a god, stated he is a god, and his transformation is literally is "God of destruction toppo ".

 

[Orange]

On a quick note, goku transforming into a super saiyan blue was stated to rival the gods. So take it as you will

 

[YukaSama4]

because toppo was directly stated to be the weakest god, and was stated that he is at the lower pole .
And even if he is the wekaest god, the statement still applies to him so I don't know what are you trying to achieve

What?
for the Merus part it was an example to prove my point but it seems u didnt get it

 

[Orange]

What?
for the Merus part it was an example to prove my point but it seems u didnt get it

Meerus isn't even the anime.
Thus your example is flawed, but even if we go by that.
Toppo still scales to that stat because he is an actual god of destruction, thus he is half 2-C

 

[Rez]

Can't we just scale everyone to suppressed Jiren who has these statements

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I'm surprised no one closed this thread. But we already went over the Low 2-C to 2-C borders and explained why the Angels are above the combined might of two GoD while we don't really have the same proof for anyone else. Then there's like other loopholes that popped up.

 

[Orange]

Ssbe and ssbkk20 react the level of gods, ui sign 3 and suppressed at the level of gods.
Mui and full power would be possibly 2-c
Base gogeta scales a above ssbe and ssbkk20, and we know that you only nerd to be 2x stronger than a god to have 2-C.
So literally ssj gogeta, ask broly are 2-C for scaling massively above god toppo, save and ssbkk20. Ssj is accepted as a 50x multiplier this making him and anyone who scales above gogeta 2-C.
It's that simple

 

[AKM sama]

Who's stronger than who literally doesn't even matter since toppo scales of that statement

Just a note that the statement was made when neither Whis nor Vados were aware of Toppo's power. So normally, they would not be taking Toppo under consideration.

There's also a thing that Whis only said that two destroyers must not engage in combat, which could be because combat between destroyers would certainly cause large scale destruction. Vados' statement about destruction of both universes was only in reference to Beerus and Champa specifically: "the two of you must know your combat would inevitably lead to the rather inconvenient annihilation of both the Sixth and Seventh universes"

The statement does not mean that two universes will be destroyed if any two GoDs fight regardless of how strong they are.

 

[Orange]

Just a note that the statement was made when neither Whis nor Vados were aware of Toppo's power. So normally, they would not be taking Toppo under consideration.

There's also a thing that Whis only said that two destroyers must not engage in combat, which could be because combat between destroyers would certainly cause large scale destruction. Vados' statement about destruction of both universes was only in reference to Beerus and Champa specifically: "the two of you must know your combat would inevitably lead to the rather inconvenient annihilation of both the Sixth and Seventh universes"

The statement does not mean that two universes will be destroyed if any two GoDs fight regardless of how strong they are.

They said if two gods of destruction, didn't really specify which one.
And right now every god scales from that statement.
Them being aware or not really doesn't matter that much since that statement scales to all gods of destruction. Toppo has even more feat than most gods, has statement that says he is like the gods, even the narrator outright states that he is a good.
I have the statement so of you want them, here.

Here is you can see.
They stated that he thinks, acts and has the same mindset as one.
Has the same energy which is exclusive to gods.
States that he is the candidate for being the god of destruction of U11.
He was stated by the narrator himself to be a god of destruction.
So if all gods scale to that statement, why toppo can't? He has more statement than even gods themselves

 

[AKM sama]

They said if two gods of destruction, didn't really specify which one.

Not true.



Clearly specified "the two of you must know your combat", talking to both Beerus and Champa, and specifying exactly which universes the two of them would end up destroying, i.e. Universes 6 and 7.

So the statement is made only in reference to Beerus and Champa. Not all GoDs.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

So the statement is made only in reference to Beerus and Champa. Not all GoDs.

Well anyway- there gose a 3rd of the thread- I was fairly sure it applied to all of them for some reason? Didn't it at some point? Maybe my memory is just bad it's been a while

 

[Orange]

Not true.



Clearly specified "the two of you must know your combat", talking to both Beerus and Champa, and specifying exactly which universes the two of them would end up destroying, i.e. Universes 6 and 7.

So the statement is made only in reference to Beerus and Champa. Not all GoDs.

And if that's true, which likely it is.
All the gods lose their ratings. Buuuuut, goku when he transformed into ssb infront of the gods, the sub states "that his power rivals the gods". It could mean that he rivals the kaioshen, but they already been surpassed.
You could say that they stated to mean that he has the energy of the gods, but he already has god ki in his base so....which leaves us that goku in ssb rivals the gods so take it as you will.
Toppo is the candidate for being the god of destruction for U11, they wouldn't choose him if he wasn't at the very least comparable to belmod, and it would actually be very consistent with jiren stated to be above the gods and above his own god of destruction.
We know that belmod is stronger than beerus, but beerus states he only lost in arm wrestling, making belmod at the very least comparable to beerus.
Toppo would still scale to Half 2-C , reasons: he would keep his old rating with " possibly half 2-C for being the candidate to U11, which has a GoD physically superior to Beerus."
Belmod wouldn't choose toppo as a candidate if he wasn't capable, and skillfull or has enough requirements to trust toppo and pass him the mantle of being a God of Destruction

 

[Vietthai96]

And if that's true, which likely it is.
All the gods lose their ratings. Buuuuut, goku when he transformed into ssb infront of the gods, the sub states "that his power rivals the gods". It could mean that he rivals the kaioshen, but they already been surpassed.
You could say that they stated to mean that he has the energy of the gods, but he already has god ki in his base so....which leaves us that goku in ssb rivals the gods so take it as you will.
Toppo is the candidate for being the god of destruction for U11, they wouldn't choose him if he wasn't at the very least comparable to belmod, and it would actually be very consistent with jiren stated to be above the gods and above his own god of destruction.
We know that belmod is stronger than beerus, but beerus states he only lost in arm wrestling, making belmod at the very least comparable to beerus.
Toppo would still scale to Half 2-C , reasons: he would keep his old rating with " possibly half 2-C for being the candidate to U11, which has a GoD physically superior to Beerus."
Belmod wouldn't choose toppo as a candidate if he wasn't capable, and skillfull or has enough requirements to trust toppo and pass him the mantle of being a God of Destruction

Again Association Fallacy, Toppo became GoDs doesn't mean he should be = 12 official GoDs in power, using your logic then SSG Goku should be = GoDs as he also have power of God, all of your point is just your personal interpretation of context and wording

 

[YukaSama4]

Kaioshen are not trusted imo, especially that dumb dude from uni.9

 

[AKM sama]

Buuuuut, goku when he transformed into ssb infront of the gods, the sub states "that his power rivals the gods".

Well, because the GoD level isn't a fixed power level. Even in the manga, Vegeta was weaker than Beerus, but was said to be a possible candidate of GoD in another universe. Same with Toppo, he isn't that strong in his base form, but is strong enough to be considered a candidate who later gained the GoD transformation.
That statement just means Goku is strong enough to be considered a candidate for the position. Them "rivalling" the GoDs has been teased so many times, during SSG, and when Goku went SSB KKx10, etc.

Toppo being a candidate to be GoD doesn't necessarily mean he is as strong as Belmod.

 

[Greenshifter]

Is Champa one of the weakest GoDs or do we not know?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

So the statement is made only in reference to Beerus and Champa. Not all GoDs.

Looking at the other GoD pages, they seem to have this in then

"A fight between two Gods of Destruction can result in the destruction of two universes."
As there low 2-C justification, I pulled this from here https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mule