DBZ Speed CRT

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Trunks was holding back at Yaradrat, though he does imply Goku is stronger.

Goku waz still stronger than Trunks even though he was holding back. Goku also held back since he knew Trunks is a good guy

He also states that Goku's strength is amazing and that he's even stronger than he thought. And everyone in the future said Goku is stronger than Trunks even in his departure to the past

 

[ByAsura]

I did mention this. I even gave a scan of Kami saying it. But I doubt the gap is massive from what evidence we do have.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I did mention this. I even gave a scan of Kami saying it. But I doubt the gap is massive.

Sure, but it's still something

 

[AKM sama]

Yes, let's make a verse hundreds of thousands of times FTL from a single relativistic feat just with headcanon multipliers when there is not a single feat later in the series that supports such a high level of speed. If we are doing this, then I am just gonna change my views to not using multipliers at all because the way they are being used it literally the definition of wanked stats by multipliers.

 

[ByAsura]

Once again, I have to agree.

Relativistic is extremely consistent with feats from Roshi and Frieza. We also have pre-DBZ Goku blitzing lightning timers, Piccolo's other beam, etc.

 

[Stefano4444]

Yes, let's make a verse hundreds of thousands of times FTL from a single relativistic feat just with headcanon multipliers when there is not a single feat to support it.

The verse already reached the thousands of times FTL in the Namek Saga with 100% Frieza and SSJ1 Goku with conservative numbers and accepted multipliers.

Seeing how much stronger the characters get, it isn't unreasonable to assume that they could have reach dozens of thousands of times FTL.

Also is not like people are adding a 2 times multipliers for each gap, only when there are statements about a character be faster than previous characters with half its power (SSj1 4th Grade Goku, SSj2 Gohan or Majin Buu).

And the only one who get in hundreds of thousands of times FTL its Buu Saga SSj1 Vegito, the strongest characters from the OG Series before GT or Super.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Welp, already the signs are beginning to turn to dragon ball causing yet another sitewide revision of how stats are calculated. Nice.

That being said, ignoring this for a moment, context to the history of trunks is making me think that SSJ Trunks is vaguely around SSJ Gohan, what with Bulma mentioning that Trunks isn't fully superior to Gohan, and both of them are weaker than Yardrat SSJ Goku by a bit. Goku still probably trained before he died, so just thinking Gohan is weaker than Namek Goku is a bit off to me. I'd probably go with weaker than Yardrat Goku simply due to the fact that there's no reason that any of the time travelers would have messed with that sort of power growth, rather than weaker than Namek Goku. Cause even there, there's a pretty big difference.

 

[Stefano4444]

100% Frieza =At least 1,192c
SSJ Goku =At least 1,490c
SS1 Grade 2 Vegeta = At least 1,490c
FPSS1 Goku = At least 2,980c
Perfect Cell/Dabura = At least 2,980c
SS2 Teen Gohan = At least 5,960c
Fat Buu = At least 11,920c
SS1 Gotenks/SS3 Goku = At least 11,920c
Vegetto = At least 11,920c
SS1 Vegetto = At least 596,000c

Was ever be stated in the manga that Base Vegito > Fat Buu?

Aside for the Anime (the OG at least, not sure about Kai), i don't remember anything about Base Vegito be stronger than Fat Buu.

 

[LordTracer]

Was ever be stated in the manga that Base Vegito > Fat Buu?

Aside for the Anime (the OG at least, not sure about Kai), i don't remember anything about Base Vegito be stronger than Fat Buu.

Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku.

 

[Stefano4444]

Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku.

In the Manga Vegito go right to SSj1 to fight Buuhan, there is no indication of how exactly powerful is Base Vegito.

The Anime does show him overpower Buuhan even without SSJ1, but that isn't canon.

 

[LordTracer]

In the Manga Vegito go right to SSj1 to fight Buuhan, there is no indication of how exactly powerful is Base Vegito.

The Anime does show him overpower Buuhan even without SSJ1, but that isn't canon.

The Daizenshuu states that Vegetto’s power surpasses a Super Saiyan 3, and base fusions are always stronger than the fusees.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Yeah, was Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku said in the daizenshuu? I legitimately forget, but it would more than likely be the case if anything would have ever confirmed it.

And SSJ3 Goku is fodder to Buuhan, so him transforming into SSJ to fight isn't exactly a surprise.

Edit: The answer sniped me. Nice.

 

[AKM sama]

The verse already reached the thousands of times FTL in the Namek Saga

And yet there is not a single feat beyond relativistic. When the multipliers bump something from relativistic to such a higher level of MFTL+ and the verse has nothing to show for it, using them is wrong. Stacking multipliers to such a ridiculous degree without any supporting evidence is a huge no-no. It's the same problem as huge multipliers that are not supported with proper evidence. Once again, these are extraordinary stats that require extraordinary evidence.

Also is not like people are adding a 2 times multipliers for each gap, only when there are statements about a character be faster than previous characters with half its power

Power and speed do not have 1 to 1 correlation. Somebody can be twice as strong, yet not necessarily twice as fast, simply faster.

 

[Damage3245]

And yet there is not a single feat beyond relativistic. When the multipliers bump something from relativistic to such a higher level of MFTL+ and the verse has nothing to show for it, using them is wrong.

I have to agree with AKM here.

Multipliers are great and all, but they should ideally be sustained with other kinds of supporting feats. Especially when the multipliers result in a jump from Relativistic to something like MFTL+....

 

[Veryfunnydidlaugh]

And yet there is not a single feat beyond relativistic. When the multipliers bump something from relativistic to such a higher level of MFTL+ and the verse has nothing to show for it, using them is wrong.

Power and speed do not have 1 to 1 correlation. Somebody can be twice as strong, yet not necessarily twice as fast, simply faster.

I think I have to agree with you here. The sheer amount of multipliers used to bump up these characters' speed by thousands of times with no feats isn't that different from just multiplying their speed by thousands of times with no feats.

 

[DivineAura44]

And yet there is not a single feat beyond relativistic. When the multipliers bump something from relativistic to such a higher level of MFTL+ and the verse has nothing to show for it, using them is wrong. Stacking multipliers to such a ridiculous degree without any supporting evidence is a huge no-no. It's the same problem as huge multipliers that are not supported with proper evidence. Once again, these are extraordinary stats that require extraordinary evidence.

Goku catching up to Frieza before Frieza hit Vegeta is a feat. And to the person who said it was immeasurable calc stacking I wanna remind you that one was casual 50% and one was serious 50%.

 

[DivineAura44]

Of course I don't know if I agree with it but denying speed simply because you don't like the amount of multiplier is BS.

 

[AKM sama]

Goku catching up to Frieza before Frieza hit Vegeta is a feat.

This is incorrect. It's called scaling, not feat. You are making a comparison between 2 characters, not pointing out something quantifiable done by a character on its own that can be calculated in isolation.

 

[DivineAura44]

The feat would be someone running half of a planet before a relativistic object can hit an person meters away. I'm not scaling Goku to anybody/thing with this feat.

 

[SSJRyu1]

So, @AKM sama @Damage3245

1. Do you feel that we should stick with up to the accepted Frieza saga multipliers only, as they are very explicit and backed with Kaioken multipliers as well, and just leave the rest as faster mftl+ to an undetermined degree.

2. Scrap multipliers site wide, do a massive revision of the site, and put all DBZ as "at least relativistic+".

3. Accept the logical multipliers presented (some have good merit like base Vegito > Namek SSJ Goku therefore SSJ Vegito is logically 50x faster) for the rest of DB and tack them on to the already agreed upon scale. To be fair you could argue that simply using half your power, or being twice as strong does not inherently mean you are moving at half speed, thus the speed boost of some proposed additions is unquantifiable if we are being very strict about the use of multipliers.

I would recommend option 1 or 3, since pretending multipliers don't exist at all is disingenuous and factually false, and goes against the whole point of DB, which is increasing your power and speed to surpass your limits.

 

[LightReinh12345]

Agree with Ryu Logically even third Option is conservative let alone the first but I am fine with the first Option too

 

[AKM sama]

Honestly, I think even MFTL+ is stretching it when the best feat in the verse is below the speed of light.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still think that applying my updated blog and exclusively using the multipliers I used; the Kaioken 2x to 4x in Saiyan saga, the 2x against Ginyu, and the up to 20x against Frieza + 40-50x in Super Saiyan are the only okay multipliers. I have to agree with AKM and Damage's premise that abusing multipliers is super taboo for nearly any other verse. It will still be an upgrade, but only to Massively FTL, not Massively FTL+.

But I think it's best to call more staff.

 

[DivineAura44]

Denying a series' main way of getting feats is also bad too, no?

 

[SSJRyu1]

@AKM sama
It is true that MFTL+ is a big boost from Rel+ for sure, but up to the Freiza saga, the proposed multipliers at least are heavily backed up, and we have accepted multipliers in the past that are in excess of 250,000x like for Mori Jin, and in DB they do literally completely speed blitz each other many times over. So narratively speaking it can fit really.

If I were to make a suggestion I would say the scaling up to Frieza is good and concrete, and almost everybody who commented was happy with it, we say that they are faster to an unknown degree beyond that and leave it at that since specific increases in power don't always equate to equal multipliers of speed.

The one exception I think you could add, but don't need to if your uncomfortable with it, is Vegito explicitly uses the accepted SSJ multiplier, so you could argue he at least scales more than 50x Namek SSJ Goku, but even at that it would be less inflated result if we just say he is at least 50x SSJ Goku.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I still think that applying my updated blog and exclusively using the multipliers I used; the Kaioken 2x to 4x in Saiyan saga, the 2x against Ginyu, and the up to 20x against Frieza + 40-50x in Super Saiyan are the only okay multipliers. I have to agree with AKM and Damage's premise that abusing multipliers is super taboo for nearly any other verse. It will still be an upgrade, but only to Massively FTL, not Massively FTL+.

But I think it's best to call more staff.

Can you link your blog? I don't think I've seen it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The only one who massively increase from 1490c is SSJ Vegito.

Everyone else up to Buuhan only increase in speed by a total of EIGHT times (from 1490c to 11920), and SSJ Vegito is 11920 * 50 = 596000 as SSJ3 Goku scales to 11920c and Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku.

Even Buuhan's speed being just a total of EIGHT TIMES above Namek Saga SSJ Goku is a very, very big lowball, and all of these scans are linked in the manga and are supported by canon evidence from the manga

Also, ignoring multipliers just because "I don't like these numbers" is a really bad thing to do an doesn't add to accurcy at all. Unless you're actually saying that SSJ Vegito is as fast as SSJ Goku on Namek because "applying multipliers is wank". Or hell, make them all Reletivistic+ and say that FTL DB is wank as well.

 

[Stefano4444]

I'm all for the 3rd option, and if not then the 1st option should be more than acceptable at the very least.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Okay, then just scrap the SSJ Vegetto thing, make him the same tier of speed as SSJ3 Goku/SSJ1 Gotenks, and every other bump is just

"This guy is twice as strong as the previous guy who had the speed before" or "This guy is at least on par with another guy at half power". And we know power and speed is tied together in dragon ball unless otherwise stated (ie Trunks in Grade 3).

 

[DivineAura44]

Can you link your blog? I don't think I've seen it.

This might be it.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Here's my attempt at a very conservative Dragon Ball speed overview. It probably sucks, but oh well, might as well at least throw my thoughts out there, if people are worried about the one that was accepted by the thread.

 

[Stefano4444]

Here's my attempt at a very conservative Dragon Ball speed overview. It probably sucks, but oh well, might as well at least throw my thoughts out there, if people are worried about the one that was accepted by the thread.

The 10x times statement of Goku had enough backing to be considered accurate and everybody agreed that it should be used, i don't see reason to include other than for the sake of lowballing as much as possible.

Also, the 2 times increase for Fat Buu cannot be used, Buu Saga SSj2 Gohan was show/stated to be weaker than Cell Saga SSj2 Gohan due of his lack of training, he had difficulty in defeating Dabura who is stated by Goku to be on par with Perfect Cell.

 

[Stefano4444]

Adding the Post Frieza Saga characters in my original scaling and all the statements about the characters using half their power, the new scaling (if accepted) will look like this:

BoZ Piccolo, BoZ Goku, Raditz, Saibaman, Saiyan Saga Gohan, Saiyan Saga Krillin, Saiyan Saga Yamcha, Saiyan Saga Chiaotzu, Saiyan Saga Piccolo, Saiyan Saga Tien = Relativistic+/0.764c
- Via Piccolo Moon busting Ki Blast.

Nappa, Saiyan Saga Goku, Namek Saga Krillin, Namek Saga Gohan, Guldo = At least Relativistic+/0.764c
- Via chain scaling.

Saiyan Saga KK2 Goku, Saiyan Saga Vegeta, Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon, Monster Form Zarbon = FTL/1.528c
- Via scaling from Kaioken 2x.

Namek Saga Vegeta = FTL/2.292c
- Via scaling from Kaioken 3x.

Recoome, Burter, Jeice = At least FTL/3.056c
- Via scaling from Kaioken 4x.

Namek Saga Goku, Captain Ginyu = At least FTL/7.64c
- Via Goku's power and speed increasing 10 times via gravity training.

Namek Saga KK4 Goku, Base Frieza, 2nd Form Frieza, Frieza Saga Piccolo, Frieza Saga Enraged Gohan, Frieza Saga Vegeta = FTL+/30.56c
- Via scaling from Kaioken 4x.

3rd Form Frieza, Frieza Saga Post-Zenkai Vegeta/Goku = At least FTL+/30.56c
- Via chain scaling.

Frieza Saga KK20 Goku, 4th Form 50% Frieza = Massively FTL/611.2c
- Via scaling to Kaioken 20x.

4th Form 100% Frieza = Massively FTL+/1222.4c
- Via Frieza be able to match KK20 Goku with only half of his full power.

Frieza Saga SSj1 Goku, SSj1 Future Gohan, Android Saga SSj1 Future Trunks, Android Saga SSj1 Vegeta = Massively FTL+/1528c
- Via scaling from SSj1 Form.

Android 18, Android 17, Android Saga Piccolo, Imperfect Cell, Android 16, Semi-Perfect Cell, Android Saga SSj1 2nd Grade Vegeta, Shin = Massively FTL+/3056c
- Via Future Android 17 using half of his power to overwhelm Future SSj1 Gohan, who was stated to be comparable to SSj1 Future Trunks.

Cell Saga SSj1 4th Grade Goku, Cell Saga SSj1 4th Grade Gohan, Perfect Cell, Dabura, Buu Saga SSj2 Gohan, Super Perfect Cell = Massively FTL+/6112c
- Via SSj1 4th Grade Goku surpassing even the likes of SSj1 2nd Grade Vegeta with half of his full power.

Cell Saga SSj2 Gohan, Buu Saga SSj2 Goku, Buu Saga SSj2 Vegeta, Fat Buu, Buu Saga SSj3 Goku, Kid Buu, Super Buu, Buu Saga SSj3 Gotenks, Buu Saga Mystic Gohan, Buutenks, Buuhan, Buu Saga Vegito = Massively FTL+/12224c
- Via SSj2 Gohan still be able to match and overpower Super Perfect Cell even with only half of his full power.

Vegito SSj1 = Massively FTL+/611200c
- Via scaling from SSj1 Form.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

The 10x times statement of Goku had enough backing to be considered accurate and everybody agreed that it should be used, i don't see reason to include other than for the sake of lowballing as much as possible.

Also, the 2 times increase for Fat Buu cannot be used, Buu Saga SSj2 Gohan was show/stated to be weaker than Cell Saga SSj2 Gohan due of his lack of training, he had difficulty in defeating Dabura who is stated by Goku to be on par with Perfect Cell.

I did say I was trying to lowball with it. If people want to cringe about how it gets bloated near the start and how it ends up expanding as much as it does, then I might as well do that.

Also, then the 11,000x FTL from that one list everyone likes can't be used either because it's effectively the same justification.

 

[Stefano4444]

Also, then the 11,000x FTL from that one list everyone likes can't be used either because it's effectively the same justification.

That is also true.

Although it is negated with Android 17 > Future SSj1 Gohan with half of his power.

 

[DivineAura44]

I love how Vegito is logically Goku + Vegeta x 60 but we are going too crazy with the multipliers.

 

[LightReinh12345]

Even if we ditch Super vegito & 50-100% stuffs , Frieza Saga was still reaching MFTL+ & that was kinds accepted last time I checked

 

[Damage3245]

Frieza Saga reaching MFTL+ with only a Relavistic feat at best does give me pause.

Stacking multipliers over scaling chains should requires as heavy a burden of proof as huge individual multipliers.

 

[DivineAura44]

I gave a non scaling/multiplier feat. There is nothing disproving it and it shouldn't be an outlier. It won't get used for obvious reason but I'm just saying if you are denying MFTL "doesn't feel right" there is always other feats.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Frieza Saga reaching MFTL+ with only a Relavistic feat at best does give me pause.

Stacking multipliers over scaling chains should requires as heavy a burden of proof as huge individual multipliers.

There are many scans posts here that are the reasons behind these ratings. There are a lot of evidences for the scalings and ratings, and just ignoring all of the statements, scans and feats by saying "It doesn't feel right" or "I don't like this numbers so I disagree" isn't enough to discredit the scalings

Doing so would be as inaccurate as making made up multipliers and going forward from there, especially with the big amount of scans we got for the entire scaling