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Old one, since while that one makes sense we don't have a direct statement that Goku's 50% is twice that of Ultra Trunks.
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DBZ Speed CRT
- Thread starter Zamasu_Chan
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- dragon ball
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Gilad_Hyperstar
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That actually isn't the scaling. My scaling difference isn't with Grade 3 Trunks, but rather the fact that 100% Goku was still far below Perfect Cell, yet 50% SSJ2 Gohan was enough to kill Super Perfect Cell
Basically: SSJ2 Gohan = 2 * 50% SSJ2 Gohan > Super Perfect Cell >>> 100% SSJ Goku = 2 * 50% SSJ Goku > Super Vegeta
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But that scaling doesn't make sense with the numbers. Since it'd look like
The only way to get 50% Goku to 2,980c is to say he's twice the speed of Super Vegeta or Super Trunks, when there isn't a statement of that afaik
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
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Yeah. On a second look I made a mistake in the numbers for FPSSJ Goku
Anyways the updated scaling is:
SSJ Goku (1490) < Super Vegeta (1490) < 50% FPSSJ Goku (1490) < 100% FPSSJ Goku (2980) < Super Perfect Cell (2980) < SSJ2 Gohan (5960) < Fat Buu (11920) < Vegito (11920) < SSJ Vegito (596000)
Wait, this is actually identical to the previous scalings. Nevermind then
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
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I found this scan of Android 18 blocking an attack from SSJ Trunks who went all out with just one arm
This would mean she's twice as strong as SSJ Trunks, meaning she'll be 2980c, and the scaling continues from there
This would mean she's twice as strong as SSJ Trunks, meaning she'll be 2980c, and the scaling continues from there
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Dunno if that's 2x. In Dragon Ball incredibly minor strength increases seemingly result in massive gains compared to their opponent. Its why speed scaling is wonky, because there's not a definitive system or power chart anymore.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Gohan being forced to use just one of his arms got his ki halved, and he could only use half of his power with only one arm
Same principle here. Android 18 blocked a full power assault from SSJ Trunks with just one of her arms, effortlessly and super casually. Saying that she's twice as strong, especially considering the similar evidence we got for Gohan makes the conclusion of SSJ Trunks < 50% Android 18 pretty concievable
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Wouldn’t better evidence be like, Future 17/18 fighting SSJ Future Gohan at half power?
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There's a pretty hefty amount of biological differences though. Like 18 getting her power from an engine utterly irrelevant to her standard physicals
If you can prove the claim that Future Gohan is comparable to Namek Goku, yeah it would work as a scaling point.
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Would it be possible to scale Future Gohan to or above Future Trunks, and therefore above Freeza? Cause if not, then we’ll have to go with the scaling chain as is.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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She only gets her stamina from her engine. The rest is made from the augumentations Dr. Gero made in her body to make her this strong
Her engine just mean she can keep fighring forever, but if she's handicapped, she will suffer from not being able to use her full extent of her power just like anyone else, since again, the only difference between her and them is that she never tires
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
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Also, SSJ Trunks tells SSJ Goku that he won't hold back when attacking him
SSJ Goku however, effortlessly stops Trunks' slashes with just his finger
Again, this points out for at least a 2 times difference in strength. Trunks explicably said he won't hold back against Goku when he attacked him
SSJ Goku however, effortlessly stops Trunks' slashes with just his finger
Again, this points out for at least a 2 times difference in strength. Trunks explicably said he won't hold back against Goku when he attacked him
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You don’t get to randomly assume it’s a 2x difference without an explicit statement, that’s just not how it works.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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It's because he blocked an all out assault with just his finger, when Trunks needed both arms to do the same kind of attack.
One hand can only exert half the force of using both hands at once, and this is also true in DB (such as with SSJ2 Gohan VS Cell)
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With Gohan v. Cell, we have an explicit statement from Gohan that he’s at half power. If there isn’t a direct statement, you don’t get to assume multipliers.
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My dude this is the next page
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,822
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According to the Daizenshuu, a difference of 2x is required to no-sell an opponent's attacks.
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You got a scan?
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,822
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You betcha.
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From what I'm getting you need to apply 2x ki to nullify whatever is attacking you. Not that they have double the amount of ki as their opponent.
Nullflowerblush
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Unfortunately, Gohan seems to imply he hasn't even reached Namek Saga Goku's level yet.
Nullflowerblush
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"they must emit ki at least twice that of their opponent's"
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Yes, they must emit ki twice that of their opponent's attack
Its why the book points out why the move works so well for 17 and Cell, because they have infinite energy generators in them. Android 17 himself points this out to Piccolo when talking about how he can just outlast him in a fight despite being dead even with him power wise.
I don't think you can with either. Future Gohan was weaker than Namek Era Goku (since he never trained like in the main timeline) and Trunks seemingly isn't any stronger or weaker than Vegeta or a healthy Goku.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Ok, when Trunks returned to the past he was about as strong as SSJ Future Gohan when he died, making both him and Gohan superior to SSJ Goku on Namek as Trunks destroyed Frieza effortlessly while Goku struggled against him more
Future Android 17 stated than he didn't used even half his power when he killed SSJ Gohan
Future Android 17 stated than he didn't used even half his power when he killed SSJ Gohan
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What chapter is this from?
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Trunks the History, it's after Dragon Ball Chapter 396
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No, he stated that when he destroyed Gohan's arm he didn't use half of his power.
I'm not even sure she says that, because she doesn't even confirm he's that strong. Also you literally just posted a scan of Future Gohan stating he's weaker than Namek era Goku
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,822
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In the official translation, Bulma doubts that Trunks has reached Gohan's level of strength, which is accurate to Herms' translation.
Nullflowerblush
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The timeframe between Trunks' hospitalization and him leaving for the past is unknown and on top of his Zenkai, he could have trained within that span of time.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Can I ask which manga source you use for the statements? I don't seem to be able to find your versions
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So that can’t be used to say Future Gohan > Future Trunks > Mecha Freeza?
Then ig we’re going with the scale I have to SSJRyu.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Well, that's sad.
However, the Daizenshuu does say that you need to be twice as powerful as your enemy to no sell their attacks, which leads us back to Trunks VS Android 18
However, the Daizenshuu does say that you need to be twice as powerful as your enemy to no sell their attacks, which leads us back to Trunks VS Android 18
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More like, we can't prove that he's a hard number over Frieza. like 2x or 10x. Majin Buu is certainly far more than 2x Gohan, but its all we got to work with in terms of hard numbers.
The Viz translation
It says the barrier move needs twice as much ki and the attack to cancel it out. Its not a universal thing, its just for that move. Which is why it brings up stamina as a factor of why it works well with 17
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Oh, I was mainly asking cause then the statement of C-17 only using half power against Gohan would actually be usable if we said Gohan scales to Freeza.
If we were to use that, it would affect far more than just the Android Saga, and much more than just DBZ tbh.
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I wouldn't say so. 17 said that when he destroyed Gohan's arm a year ago he didn't use half his strength. Gohan never got to his father's strength level, so that just means Future Gohan < Namek SS1 Goku
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That’s fair, and Mecha Freeza was confident that he could take out Goku, so Gohan definitely shouldn’t scale in that case.
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Future Goku never died in the Namek Saga, he died after returning from Yaradrat and defeating Mecha Frieza. Gohan and everyone also very consistently states that if Goku was here, they would have defeated the Androids. It'd be weird if he was specifying the Namek/Frieza Saga, rather than the power to defeat the Androids.
It's worth noting that Bulma also says that Trunks wasn't far superior ("stronger" is apparently less accurate) to Gohan just before he left.
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Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
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Yes this is another thing. Future Goku also completes the training from Yardrat so both Goku-s are identical at least up until Goku returned frim Yardrat.
Post Yardrat Goku is far stronger than Future Trunks, who fodderized Mecha Frieza and King Cold
Post Yardrat Goku is far stronger than Future Trunks, who fodderized Mecha Frieza and King Cold
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