Minor Whis speed fix.

[SSJRyu1]

@The_real_cal_howard

That's a false equivalency. Your referring to a feat where the travel is shown from beginning to end giving us an accurate timeframe if we accept the cinematic timing, like for the Piccolo moon beam which we see from start to finish.

Whis is never depicted to take 10 sec to arrive after he starts flying, we do not even see him start flying or his flight through space, we just see Beerus sniff the food, then 10 sec later Whis arrives. We have no idea when he left after the scene where Beerus sniffed the food. Could have been 1 sec after the scene, could have been 9.99999999999999999 sec after the scene, thus the 10 sec estimate is a completely assumed low ball, or in other words the absolute maximum timeframe, and not indicative of an actual confirmed timeframe or the many higher end ones that are just as plausible.

Using an assumed low ball timeframe that could be much different as a hard cap is simply wrong, so unless you can actually prove he took 10 sec or more, you shouldn't continue arguing Whis top speed has to be 500 quad c since it could reasonably be vastly higher in that feat.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Goku vs Frieza, round 1. While I remember Goku blitzing him in Super Saiyan, I don’t remember Frieza blitzing Goku. Just raw overpowering. Otherwise the Spirit Bomb would’ve never hit, distracted or no. Counter example with them. Golden Form is a boost to the millions. It allows base Frieza, who’s about base Goku’s level, to be on the level of Blue, if not beyond. And yet there’s quite a few fights in the ToP where someone challenges both forms, the big three of universe 11 being prime examples. The finale involves a tired Jiren, who’s still strong enough to knock Frieza out of Golden, being beaten by a tired Goku, 17, and Frieza. But a tired Jiren should be millions of times stronger if he could knock Golden out of Frieza. And then there’s just Broly...

Cell. No. Cell Didnt blitz anyone. Neither did Super Vegeta. It was all raw power there.

Goku literally used all his forms from base up to Blue Kaio-Ken. If multipliers were consistent then he would’ve gotten one-shot during that sequence when he challenged Jiren in base when the latter should’ve been literally millions of times stronger because of lolmultipliers.

Goku had to use kaioken x10 just to survive with Frieza, and he was getting outclassed when he used 50% the entire time, then he blitz him with SSJ.

Vegeta literally closes the distance and lands a punch before Cell can react, and proceeds to dismantle Cell dodging attacks and manhandling him, Vegeta is definably blitzing him.

Not to mention after When Vegeta fights Perfect Cell that transformation is enough to let Cell Blitz Vegeta, when we see Vegeta tells him to take it seriously and he then moves behind Vegeta faster than he can react and proceeds to knock him around.

My points on both UI sign and MUI still stand to, as well as your Hit example.

I'm not going to claim that the series is 100% consistent, by god it has its inconsistencies for power scaling, but it does also consistently portray transformations as huge power ups in speed. So saying there isn't good proof that transformations give significant multipliers for speed is false.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Dude, I have Necrozma’s feat of absorbing all the light of the universe happening in a day as a super lowball, and Underdog’s feat of crossing the galaxy in the same timeframe. Both feats you’d be insane to argue took more than an hour at most, but the that’s the way the site works. We take the most reasonable assumption. Smell goes up at t=0, Whis shows up at t=10. It’s basic Occam’s Razor.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@SSJRyu1 Also can I just say how much I missed debating with you, even though we’re never on the same side? It’s been years, dude. It almost reinvigorates my drive for the site...almost

 

[SSJRyu1]

As a low ball to find a minimum value that's fine to do, but its different if your trying to argue Whis feat could not have been any faster than 10 sec as a way to cap his max possible speed, since the 10 sec is not the max possible speed, which is what you are looking for to argue your speed cap, it is the minimum possible speed of the feat. The minimum possible speed is irrelevant when you are trying to argue for the maximum possible speed to prove Whis, and by extension the rest couldn't be any faster.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@SSJRyu1 Also can I just say how much I missed debating with you, even though we’re never on the same side? It’s been years, dude. It almost reinvigorates my drive for the site...almost

I do enjoy a good debate XD

Wish I had more time to do them.

 

[DivineAura44]

Dude, I have Necrozma’s feat of absorbing all the light of the universe happening in a day as a super lowball, and Underdog’s feat of crossing the galaxy in the same timeframe. Both feats you’d be insane to argue took more than an hour at most, but the that’s the way the site works. We take the most reasonable assumption. Smell goes up at t=0, Whis shows up at t=10. It’s basic Occam’s Razor.

Sounds like a whataboutism to me.

 

[DivineAura44]

Dude, I have Necrozma’s feat of absorbing all the light of the universe happening in a day as a super lowball, and Underdog’s feat of crossing the galaxy in the same timeframe. Both feats you’d be insane to argue took more than an hour at most, but the that’s the way the site works. We take the most reasonable assumption. Smell goes up at t=0, Whis shows up at t=10. It’s basic Occam’s Razor.

Our point is, if another feat disproves this, we shouldn't say that the feat which has merit to it is wrong, but instead go after the Occam's Razor feat cuz it's not able to co-exist with other feat. (Which is acceptable.)

 

[Chariot190]

Sounds like a whataboutism to me.

Why is this the new buzzword?
It's called not having double standards.

 

[DivineAura44]

Why is this the new buzzword?
It's called not having double standards.

I like it personally. It's flows.

 

[Chariot190]

I like it personally. It's flows.

I mean I get what you're saying, but Cal's argument is one of not having double standards. It's a matter of being conservative. I get the feat could be lower in theory, but there's a matter of being reasonable here and taking something like 1/1000000th of a second timeframe goes against the wiki's standards, which is why Cal is using examples of lowends for the sake of not getting huge numbers just for the sake of it.

 

[DivineAura44]

I mean I get what you're saying, but Cal's argument is one of not having double standards. It's a matter of being conservative. I get the feat could be lower in theory, but there's a matter of being reasonable here and taking something like 1/1000000th of a second timeframe goes against the wiki's standards, which is why Cal is using examples of lowends for the sake of not getting huge numbers just for the sake of it.

And the thing is it makes no sense for you to scale one character to Planet level for pulling a regular door off it's hinges but then try to scale another character to that. No the Planet level just needs a new thing/ Also it's different here but something is blatantly contradicting it.

 

[Chariot190]

I have no idea what you just said.

 

[KLOL506]

And the thing is it makes no sense for you to scale one character to Planet level for pulling a regular door off it's hinges but then try to scale another character to that. No the moon level just needs a new thing/ Also it's different here but something is blatantly contradicting it.

What even... is this...

 

[DivineAura44]

Basically the fact Cal is contradicting a speed with a unset speed is bs to me.

 

[DivineAura44]

What even... is this...

I was half asleep.

 

[Chariot190]

Basically the fact Cal is contradicting a speed with a unset speed is bs to me.

But is he actually? I mean, is it not more reasonable to assume Whis hauled ass right away given the context of the scene opposed to Whis taking off with a 500,000th of a second left? Like you could probably shave a few seconds off for the feat for beerus calling Whis over and saying they gotta to earth immediately but a few seconds isnt 9.999999 seconds.

 

[DivineAura44]

But is he actually? I mean, is it not more reasonable to assume Whis hauled ass right away given the context of the scene opposed to Whis taking off with a 500,000th of a second left? Like you could probably shave a few seconds off for the feat for beerus calling Whis over and saying they gotta to earth immediately but a few seconds isnt 9.999999 seconds.

The feat was as he stated an Occam's Razor. There have been many argument on what this could be, like for example the fact maybe Whis was using warp which would save effort in a trade for slower travel, an argument that's honestly not too bad.

 

[Chariot190]

Warp is a speed technique, it's not slower, it's faster. The only reason why Whis scales to it is because he has the reactions to control and maneuver it.

 

[Stefano4444]

I think the most correct action would be for the Beerus's nullify universe busting explosion to take priority over Whis's Warp.

As nothing that directly say that Whis was using his max speed, only that he never travel as fast as before.

And seeing how he was still pretty chill we can assume that this doesn't prove that Whis was using his full speed, even if it was his best showing.

Or we can just dismiss it as a low end feat, just like with Buu Saga Gotenks SSj travelling across Earth.

As even if Gotenks's best speed feat is only in the Sub-Relativistic range, we still put him far above Relativistic+ due of him via scaling above BoZ Piccolo.

 

[KLOL506]

As even if Gotenks's best speed feat is only in the Sub-Relativistic range, we still put him far above Relativistic+ due of him via scaling above BoZ Piccolo.

Uh... no, Gotenks is straight up FTL+.

 

[Stefano4444]

Uh... no, Gotenks is straight up FTL+.

Are you referring to scaling or via Gotenks's circles Earth? I know he is FTL+ via scaling, but that isn't the main topic of my post.

I was comparing Gotenk SSj's feat of circles Earth with BoZ Piccolo's feat of blasting the Moon.

To show how a far slower character can have better feats than a faster character, and yet we haven't dismiss the former as an outlier.

 

[KLOL506]

Are you referring to scaling or via Gotenks's circles Earth? I know he is FTL+ via scaling, but that isn't the main topic of my post.

I was comparing Gotenk SSj's feat of circles Earth with BoZ Piccolo's feat of blasting the Moon, showing how a far slower character can have better feats than a faster character, and yet we haven't dismiss the former as an outlier.

Was referring to scaling, yeah.

 

[Chariot190]

Are you referring to scaling or via Gotenks's circles Earth? I know he is FTL+ via scaling, but that isn't the main topic of my post.

I was comparing Gotenk SSj's feat of circles Earth with BoZ Piccolo's feat of blasting the Moon.

To show how a far slower character can have better feats than a faster character, and yet we haven't dismiss the former as an outlier.

Gotenks doesnt go on record and say it's the fastest he's ever gone while being who knows how old and having been shown to casually blitz multiple characters on screen before (Meaning he was going faster then the times he blitzed).
Gotenks has the excuse of it being ultra casual (plus not having an actual timeframe due to it being a manga).
Whis' feat has an actual timeframe (it can vary a bit but not to the extent that's being implied) and Whis explicitly noting this is faster then anything he's ever done, aka faster then all those times he's shown to be >>>>>. everyone else while casual.

Gotenks' feat is a false equivalence to this one.

 

[Stefano4444]

Gotenks doesnt go on record and say it's the fastest he's ever gone while being who knows how old and having been shown to casually blitz multiple characters on screen before (Meaning he was going faster then the times he blitzed).

Yet that was still his best showing in both DBZ and DBS (casual or not), Gotenks has no other feats that could make him faster.

But we know that he is far faster than characters like BoZ Piccolo who had display better, due of this is why he put him above even his own best speed feats.

The same should be applied to Whis, as he also show to be able to casually keep up with characters far faster than BoG SSjG Goku.

If not then what other options do you suggest?

1) Do we assume Beerus was at his max power when he react and nullified the universal busting explosion?
But that is proven false by Whis's statement about Beerus holding back for the entire fight (unless Whis was lying too without any reason), or do you want me to believe that he only go out in that specific moment, only for then return casual before Whis or Goku could notice anything?

2) Do we dismiss all accepted multipliers from the series?
Aside that it would be absurd to assume that Kaioken's multiplier is suddenly no longer viable in DBS, but even without that there is no way that the difference between BoG SSjG Goku and Whis is only about 2.54081633 times, we know that the gap is far higher than that.

3) Do we turn it intro an outlier?
But that would means that we will have to assume that Whis and the other angels are the only characters in the in the quadrillions FTL while everyone would be at most in the dozens of thousands FTL to hundreds of thousand FTL, that gap of speed is so massive that it may put into question the validity of Whis's feats as well.

 

[Antvasima]

To satisfy everybody involved in this argument, couldn't we just make sure that any characters swifter than Beerus' reaction feat have their profile pages mention that they should be far swifter than the calculated result, without any specific multipliers involved? Cal does have a good point in that we should not make exceptions in our standard procedures for specific fictions after all.

 

[Stefano4444]

To satisfy everybody involved in this argument, couldn't we just make sure that any characters swifter than Beerus' reaction feat have their profile pages mention that they should be far swifter than the calculated result, without any specific multipliers involved?

I guess it could work as a compromise, although this don't give any satisfactory conclusion of the discussion.

Even without Kaioken, Goku only need to get 2.54 times faster to surpass Whis's "supposed" max speed, he would have already surpass that gap in Resurrection 'F'.

And it would be dumb so assume that DBS Goku increase of speed was less that 2.54 times, it just too absurd to accept.

 

[DivineAura44]

Warp is a speed technique, it's not slower, it's faster. The only reason why Whis scales to it is because he has the reactions to control and maneuver it.

Since when was it a speed technique? I'm pretty sure it's actually a combat technique.

 

[Chariot190]

Since when was it a speed technique? I'm pretty sure it's actually a combat technique.

Since its inception?
There's a reason why Whis uses that move for going long distances exclusively, it's because it's the fastest way he could possibly get there.
And Whis never uses it in a fight in canon, because it's not exactly something that's easy to do and barely scales to his actual stats (because it's his fastest technique, if it wasnt for him being able to make turns and move while piloting it, it wouldnt even scale to his reactions), even in Heroes and the like, where it is used in fights, it's used exclusively to dodge other character's attacks, because again, it's meant to be an exceptionally fast technique and is >>>>>> everything bar Instant Transmission, which is instant, hence why Whis and others use it basically to run circles around an opponent's attack, because Warp >>>>> the speed of anything that can be thrown at them.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Warp is a speed technique that he can use for combat i’m pretty sure.

 

[DivineAura44]

Since its inception?
There's a reason why Whis uses that move for going long distances exclusively, it's because it's the fastest way he could possibly get there.
And Whis never uses it in a fight in canon, because it's not exactly something that's easy to do and barely scales to his actual stats (because it's his fastest technique), even in Heroes and the like, where it is used in fights, it's used exclusively to dodge other character's attacks, because again, it's meant to be an exceptionally fast technique and is >>>>>> everything bar Instant Transmission, which is instant, hence why Whis and others use it basically to run circles around an opponent's attack, because Warp >>>>> the speed of anything that can be thrown at them.

First, never throw Heroes at me for a canon argument. Second, or he could be using it for long distance for convenience.

 

[Chariot190]

First, never throw Heroes at me for a canon argument.

I'm not, I'm telling you straight up the only time it's ever used in a fight or combat is in Heroes, Xenoverse and the like, where even there it's speed based. If you exclude those then it's literally never used in a fight ever and thus your idea of it being a combat technique is demonstrably false and thus your argument doesn't even have a basis.

Second, or he could be using it for long distance for convenience.

Well, he's not, he uses it because it's fast and gets him places fast, it's not a matter of convenience, it's a matter of it not taking forever to go somewhere. He uses it in even life or death situations or absolutely crucial moments where speed is the most important factor. And this aint even the case for Whis, but all the angels.

The only convenience the technique has is that it's fast.

 

[Antvasima]

To satisfy everybody involved in this argument, couldn't we just make sure that any characters swifter than Beerus' reaction feat have their profile pages mention that they should be far swifter than the calculated result, without any specific multipliers involved? Cal does have a good point in that we should not make exceptions in our standard procedures for specific fictions after all.

@The_real_cal_howard @KLOL506 @DarkDragonMedeus @AKM sama

 

[DivineAura44]

Before I say anything else. Do we have a confirmed size for the DB Universe?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think so, no.

 

[DivineAura44]

So our proof going against the confirmed feat is from a feat which is based off of a DB Universe which doesn't have a confirmed size? I just wanna get that straight first.

 

[Axxtentacle]

What exactly is the opposition to nuking Whis’ current calc?

The accepted multipliers being used conservatively get a much higher value than the calc. That should be all we need to say that the calc isn’t correct, no? Our timeframe is guessed because it’s a “I don’t think it would be faster than this” for a lowball.

We’re not even using all multipliers. This is literally 2 multipliers being applied where they should be because it only makes sense for them.

 

[DivineAura44]

I'm not going to say that this is wrong as it is basically impossible for this feat.

 

[DivineAura44]

I say we hold off of the Goku Quadrillions feat until we get a greater perspective on the DB Universe. I think it's best we hold off of this convo for now.

 

[Chariot190]

So our proof going against the confirmed feat is from a feat which is based off of a DB Universe which doesn't have a confirmed size? I just wanna get that straight first.

You realize that both feats rely on the current DBZ universe size? You do know if you want to pull the " we dont know big the universe is" card to try and handwave Whis' feat, it'd also handwave Beerus' feat as well given both feats literally involve crossing the universe.

Either way we actually do have a universe size for dbz that is used in both calcs, just check the blogs.