Soul/mind/madness/ pretty much any hax that targets the personal aspects of the body and the logistics of how resistance for those said abilities work

[DTG499]

So the potency of said attacks are measured by the amount of people you are able to affect right? So with that in mind the resistance should scale the same way. If character A can soul manip 1000 people and among those 1000 people one of them is not affect that one person should have soul manip resist equal to character A's soul manip potency, right? Or am I dead wrong?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that the entirety of a power has to be resisted for that, not a spread out version.

 

[DTG499]

How do we decide if spreading out that type of hax weakens it? When the story doesn't tell nor imply how that power system works?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know, but focusing one's power on a single target usually makes it more powerful.

 

[DTG499]

It just seems odd to me. So we measure by the amount of people affected in the feat if someone among the affect people within the same feat isn't affected by it that person just has baseline resistance. That doesn't seem right to me. How can we say focusing down an arbitrary power system makes it more powerful? When was there a case that a distinction like that was made? Like a quote from a verse like this one "spread out on multiple targets makes it weaker but focused on one target makes it stronger". I'm just curious about the foundation for the reasoning.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I should note, mostly for Ant's sake, that the purpose of this thread is to either:

A) Upgrade Doomguy's soul manipulation resistance to a ridiculous amount, which was rejected

B) Downgrade Bleach's soul manipulation resistance while making a false equivalence between the two.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4271614#210

 

[Antvasima]

@Zephyrus

Okay. If this has been rejected before, I obviously don't want to mess things up.

 

[DTG499]

I'm not even on that stuff anymore. I'm just questioning this measuring system for soul/mind hax which as I see it. Is both flawed and self contradicting, bleach is just an example of the contradiction. As of now this is how I understand it, there needs to be two separate feats in order to warrant a higher level of resistance. The first feat on which the user of said hax is able to affect a number of people. Then the second feat in which a character is able to resist the full force of hax user's attack, then once those happen the character gets that level of resistance. My question is this, how can we say with certainty that spreading out an attack that works on an arbitrary made up power system? On top of the fact that has no verse on this wiki has ever brought forth a definable measuring system that has anything including the idea of "spread out equals weak" "focused equals strong"

 

[DTG499]

Bump

 

[First_Witch]

Star Wars measures its Mind Hax by the amount of people, or so i heard.

There is a certain logic to that system: Poison in its deadlyness is measured by how many people a mililiter can kill. Assuming a poison potency of 10 humans per mililiter (A tenth of a mililiter kills a human), you woudn't grant a human surviving just a tenth of a mililiter the full resistance to that poison would you?

Now you can nitpick about mechanics, nature and esothoric that might invalid such a comparason, but that would be arguing for arguing's sake. If its something that targets something, then it can be described in such a system, physically measureable or not.

 

[DTG499]

That is the thing though, soul manip is not measurable in the same sense as mass or real world energy. How can you say they work the same? It also doesn't answer the majority of the questions I asked.

 

[DarkGrath]

I've always felt this system of "numbers = potency" has felt extremely arbitrary and hasn't really had enough basis when it comes to things like soul/mind hax.

Admittedly though, since we're dealing with 100% fictional powers with no consistent function in fiction, just about any basis we use for determining potency would be arbitrary. I feel like it's worth discussing in the future, especially in regards to how fiction actually treats these feats, but obviously not right now. The forum move would make further discussion pretty unnecessary.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I've always felt this system of "numbers = potency" has felt extremely arbitrary and hasn't really had enough basis when it comes to things like soul/mind hax.
Admittedly though, since we're dealing with 100% fictional powers with no consistent function in fiction, just about any basis we use for determining potency would be arbitrary. I feel like it's worth discussing in the future, especially in regards to how fiction actually treats these feats, but obviously not right now. The forum move would make further discussion pretty unnecessary.

There literally was a big thread about this just recently https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4129046

 

[First_Witch]

Its a standard that was decided on because it has a working logic on and could be applied on to most verses. And it is better than the alternative, which is having no standards at all.

@DTG499

I answered one of your questions. Star Wars would be a verse that does that very distinction.

As for your question in the OP, yes you are dead wrong under the current system.

As for your last question, because its logical and adheres to a featbased system. Assuming that all of fiction adheres to the same logic is flawed, yes. But you could invalid tiering and endless other standards with that line of thought.

As to why it adheres to featbased logic, because the amount of haxxed targets is always a feat, regardless of a verse standard. Why should we assume that a soulhaxer who only haxxes one person at a time to have the same potency as someone who haxxes groups of people.

You say that we can't say with certainty that you can measure metaphysical ablities like physical force, but i say that the lack of known ways of measurement forces us to use a system that in itself is logical. The alternative to a force based system is speculation without any basis, as without a common system, you cant have a common comparason method.

 

[DTG499]

I do not like how often I have to repeat my questions in these threads and how my points keep getting misunderstood. I'll be on again tomorrow, probably.

 

[Antvasima]

DarkGrath is probably correct. This is a bad time, even though you can back up the discussion via the Wayback Machine Internet Archive.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

If your points are getting misunderstood, you're not laying them out in a clear enough manner. First Witch posted a very detailed, well-thought out answer to your questions that covers any possible point, IMO.

 

[Antvasima]

You can make thread backups via the "Save Page Now" function here:

https://archive.org/web/

 

[DTG499]

Yeah I agree lets do this later. I need to take a break from this wiki anyway.

 

[DTG499]

If your points are getting misunderstood, you're not laying them out in a clear enough manner. First Witch posted a very detailed, well-thought out answer to your questions that covers any possible point, IMO.

I'm not going to pretend my points and questions are delivered with inextricable clarity but I just don't want answers to questions I never even asked. I already know why we use numbers as the measurement for mind/soul manip levels. It's the only way we can compare other verses. But I get it there's probably something I did wrong but again for another time I need a break.

 

[Arkenis]

I don't think using how many people were effected by the hax is the only way or best way to do it. Take Itachi for a example, his tsukuyomi flushes in thousands of hours into your brain and can show you horrible events that can kill people or knock them out. That has nothing to do with the amount of people yet it is very much a potent mind hax. We also have Gojo who flushes your brain with endless information and therefore would be above itachi's mind hax going off how much information is poured into the victim.

Soul manipulation shouldn't just be measured by how many people it can affect since in certain situations the group of people can all have weak souls or varying lvls to their soul resistance. I don't have a concrete way to measure soul manipulation but I usually measure by how strong the soul is via statements or how many layers can he resist

 

[Antoniofer]

We can't measure the potency of something so unreal as soul or mind manipulation, not beyond of what the verse consider measurable. Although, affecting a bunch or individuals is just Power + AoE, in some instances like in ttrpg, were individuals may resist these stuff, that no one within the AoE resisted means the power is notable potent (at least beyond the resistance threshold of the affected).

 

[DTG499]

Ok say someone soul haxed 1000 people and one of them resisted the soul hax, that one person would have soul hax resistance on the 1000 person level right?

 

[Antoniofer]

It depends of the reason of why it resisted it, maybe the user has the amount of willpower to dismiss the effects, maybe the power has a limitation, or simply the target was lucky. But either, since mind haxing several people may just be mind hax + AoE, it may not be notable potency wise.

 

[Bobsican]

I guess this could downgrade verses whose mindhax is purely reliant on range, potency-wise.

 

[Antoniofer]

Don't think that is going to change most of user's point of view, they prefer "quantity over quality", and generally bring up the "it uses some kind of energy" to justify that principle.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, the same can be said for practically any power whatsoever.

I guess there's some alternatives:
1: Render all mindhax as just baseline regardless of the number, anything above baseline is just by either powerscaling, but mainly by bypassing resistances, when avaiable. Sort of like how powers such as Time Stop are measured potency-wise.

2: Keep the standard as just focusing on the sheer number by default.

3: Focus on the potency by more specific means on a case by case, this alternative would get messy as it would devolve back where we started on the issue, however.

 

[Antoniofer]

I personally would consider mind/soul haxing several targets to be "baseline" haxing (although there's no set baseline level tho) + AoE; if the user in some way can sacrifice AoE to win potency then it will simply be considered to be above "baseline" although by an unknown value.

 

[Bobsican]

I agree with the above, by the way, I'll complement and say that sacrificing AoE for potency has to be explicitly stated to apply on each case for an increased potency.

 

[DTG499]

Ok say someone soul haxed 1000 people and one of them resisted the soul hax, that one person would have soul hax resistance on the 1000 person level right?

This was actually my main question. And it spawned from a content revision thread about doom. So I’ll get more specific. Hell is able to passively absorb the souls of people from countless universes, however this process takes eons. Also however doomguy was there for eons, so my question would be would he scale to Hell’s soul manipulation?

 

[Antoniofer]

Naturally, what it matter is the confirmation of the character increasing its potency (sacrifing or not AoE), doesn't count if there's only one individual within the AoE or if the user can selectively choose who is affected and who is not.

 

[Antoniofer]

I do not known the mechanics behind that scenario, but how I've been saying, range is not related to potency, so absorbing souls from another plane is a non-factor, and do not need to be related to potency (but as I said, this is more of a proposal than actual rule).

 

[Thelastmlg]

If the character can sacrifice AOE to make it stronger and bypass resistances, it would be the same as the guy that mindhax those with resiatances, the former just needs to do a extra action.

So yeah, should be a case by case, the number of people sacrificied for the higher potency would also vary from verse to verse, just because one can bypass resistances by concentrating his hax on one person instead of 100, doesn't mean someone that does that to a 1000 is 10x stronger.

 

[DTG499]

I do not known the mechanics behind that scenario, but how I've been saying, range is not related to potency, so absorbing souls from another plane is a non-factor, and do not need to be related to potency (but as I said, this is more of a proposal than actual rule).

But since the website scales potency to number of people affected would that count based upon our current rules of soul manip measuring.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, the same can be said for practically any power whatsoever.

I guess there's some alternatives for the default way to measure mind manipulation potency:
1: Render all mindhax as just baseline regardless of the number, anything above baseline is just by either powerscaling, but mainly by bypassing resistances, when avaiable. Sort of like how powers such as Time Stop are measured potency-wise.

2: Keep the standard as just focusing on the sheer number by default.

3: Focus on the potency by more specific means on a case by case, this alternative would get messy as it would devolve back where we started on the issue, however.

Thoughts on this? Personally I like the most option 1 as it's the least messy one, although option 3 isn't that far behind if we can go somewhere from there.

But since the website scales potency to number of people affected would that count based upon our current rules of soul manip measuring.

And that's why they're being discussed right now to potentially change the default option.

 

[Arkenis]

Mind hax should be based on the affect it has on a victim, so like if the mind hax can just mess with your mind and make you see certain stuff its low tier, if it can control your mind its mid tier, if it can cause physical damage or kill you its high tier, if it can erase your mind its god tier. overpowering one's resistance can be used inverse but doing crossverse it can be different from verse to verse, one way of resistance can be based will, another can be based on overall power.

 

[Antoniofer]

You may call for staff members to comment here; personally I would go by "quality over quantity" and not relate potency to AoE.

 

[DTG499]

And that's why they're being discussed right now to potentially change the default option

I agree with changing it.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

You may call for staff members to comment here; personally I would go by "quality over quantity" and not relate potency to AoE.

The problem is. How do u determine quality?

 

[Antoniofer]

Beyond what the verse consider quality, we can't, supernatural mental effects aren't a thing in real life, so we do not have a reference. So they are "baseline" until verse equal take place.