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Fate Revision Thread

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Promestein

Promestein

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Just making this thread to better organize everything.

1. The continued Servant scaling revisions

Servant scalings are still being revised; there's a lot of Servant pages, so it'll certainly take quite a while, but it's still underway. I'm planning on tackling a bunch of the FGO pages later, though I'm currently focused on rewriting and revising the remaining profiles for Fate/stay night, Fate/Zero, and Fate/Hollow Ataraxia.

2. Me rewriting a bunch of Fate pages

I'm planning on rewriting major portions of a lot of Fate and Nasuverse pages to make everything consistent in terms of formatting, make sure all of the Servants have their universal abilities listed, and so on. This is by no means something I need to do, or something that I expect help with - hell, I'm so particular and picky that doing it alone doesn't sound all that bad to me despite the quantity of pages involved. I have extremely high standards. I'm more active around here when I have something to work on anyways, so I'm fine with this.

I just want to iron out every inconsistency to make all the Nasuverse pages as perfect as they can be. A big part of this is just that I am extremely obsessive-compulsive.

3. More Noble Phantasm and Servant scaling

C-rank Noble Phantasms are said to be comparable in strength to A-rank regular attacks. A-rank regular attacks are Mountain level, through scaling to people like UBW Saber, Proto Saber, and Heracles, and other people on their level, who fight with them.

I think the best scaling methods for damage-dealing Noble Phantasms would be:

  • C-rank: Mountain level (Baseline Mountain level, really).
  • B-rank: Mountain level (Higher-end Mountain level, but not to the point of being on a completely different level).
  • A-rank and up: At least Mountain level, unless there's better feats to scale to
Berserker's durability shouldn't be scaled up. God Hand is a weird conceptual defense that can't really be applied to non-Nasuverse things due to its mechanics, so we just have to put it as Mountain level (Seriously, it's the most bullshit thing for Nasuverse scaling). Most characters scaled to Berserker or another A-rank strengther should be just Mountain level unless their feats warrant an "At least" (Like Proto Saber taking down a Divine Beast Sphinx).

Unlimited Blade Works and Gate of Babylon should be changed to just "up to At least Mountain level", or something like that. A bunch of other Noble Phantasms would need to be changed as well; I'd be happy to tackle those over time in my rewrites, though I'm sure many would be addressed by other users on their own during the Servant scaling stuff.
 
It is an awful lot for one person, but I need a constant flow of steady work for as long as possible so I can feel productive and alive. I just really like working and revising these pages, though sometimes I'm lazy and procrastinate.

For help, well... the biggest help would just be trying to fix any vandalism on pages you find and cleaning them up a bit. Thank you.
 
@Prome Question, does this apply to Servant's whose NP rank is known, but was previously just ranked as being higher than their normal AP. i.e. Mordred's Clarent Blood Arthur and Siegfried's Balmung?

If so we can start putting in the appropriate AP values for those attacks as well.
 
They'd just be at least Mountain level, which is what they were before.
 
@Galaxian

That's if they don't have better feats to scale to. For instance, we scale Arjuna's Pashupata to Karna's Brahmastra Kundala due to their rivalry even though Pashupata is Anti-Unit (albeit one that's explained rather heavily and is somewhat hax).
 
Yes, with Shadow Giants.

I'm planning on getting to her page next. Presumably tomorrow. I have a lot on my plate today, more important personal things to deal with.
 
How will Noble Phantasms such as Eightfold Blessing of Amaterasu be treated? It's got a low rank, but is shown to block and be used effectively on opponents with higher defenses.

It's supposed true ranking is massively higher than Tamamo's base use of it as well.
 
7-A would probably be fine.
 
I found these two calcs that would upgrade Servant speeds if accurate.

This and this.

I can't recall if they were discussed. Forgive me if they were.
 
Personally, I also saw on another thread someone discussing about Fate/Prototype's MHS status and how that could scale to others. Don't know if that is a can of worms we want to open or not.
 
It's probably something we should talk about.
 
Yeah. Well, we'll need a calc team member to take a look at those calcs.
 
@Galaxian

I don't think we should cross-scale Prototype to Mainstream Servants.

NotEvenHuman's argument was the fact that several of the Fate/Prototype Servants, such as Arthur, Jekyll/Hyde, Brynhildr, Arash, Ozymandias, and Paracelsus make appearance in F/GO and are fought during the course of the story.

However, given the nature of crossover stories, even those written by Nasu, I'm not sure if we can take this sort of scaling at face value. Especially since Fate/Prototype is an entirely separate continuity with a different summoning system than Fate/Grand Order, Fate/Apocrypha, or mainstream Fate.

Also, the running up the building calc was brought up before, and I vaguely remember DontTalk saying no to it, but I can't remember why.
 
The main argument for scaling across the verses with the Fate/Prototype stats was having to deal with the Prototype Servants being involved in FGO events and there being no real speed gap like there is portrayed currently to a certain extent.

EDIT: Lmao, Repp got his in just before mine.
 
It's not a separate continuity if they remember everything that happened there, for ***** sake. Even if they didn't remember it, we already scale the Lion King to Arash and Ozzy's Prototype stats, so what's the problem?

Don't even start with the "different summoning system" bullshit. Grand Order also uses a different system from Apo and SN and we scale them regardless. We also scale Prisma Illya to the rest of them, despite it being the only Fate you can say is not canon and not be talking entirely out of your ass, and having a ridiculously different summoning system. You don't even get to summon a proper Servant on that crap.

Do i have to get you a ******* list of instances where the Prototype Servants visibly remember each other and, in Arthur's case, make direct references to it? Seriously?

Hell, even in Grand Order itself we could make a decent argument for MHS speed with the amount of people throwing lighting around. And since we're treating Prillya as canon, that means we should totally scale them to Beatrice, the girl using Thor's powers. ******* Thor. The god of lighting. Not to mention we have a calc for MHS Strange Fake too.

And if you want to go "Grand Order is just a crossover story, don't take it at face value", you can go right ahead and remove any and all GO feats and scaling from every profile that uses them. Hell, just delete the GO pages already.

I'm sorry for how rude i'm being in this post, but i am really tired of this shit.

Anyway, unless Reppuzan actually wants me to make a ******* list of Prototype references, i am 100% done with this subject. Actually, scracht that, if he wants a list he can go look for it himself. It's all available on the Grand Order subreddit and it's not hard to find. Regardless, i'm done. Don't expect me to contribute to this discussion.
 
Okay hey, chill out, I understand frustration but but this is excessive.
 
@NotEvenHuman

It was my opinion. You're free to debunk it, but your tone was unnecessary. There are a lot of things you know better than I do. I know I'm not an absolute authority, so there's no need to act as if I've presented myself as one.

I'm an irritating person, I know, but we need to keep this civil.

Regardless, there's still the issue of the gap between Mach 45 and Mach 200. Whether or not we do so is up to whether or not the calcs are acceptable. If they are, wonderful, we'll start.

That said, we'd have to do a lot of profile changes if this go through, and with school coming up for me I'll be of limited usefulness.
 
@Matt

Looking through the comments, Endless Mike seem to not like the first of those calcs, but otherwise fine.

I'd like to have KamiYasha's opinion if he's available though.
 
I'm not really against using the Prototype calcs. There's the question of it being an outlier, I suppose, but if the calcs I linked are legitimate, that'll help branch the gap.

Personally, I'd be happy to change the speed on pages as part of my revisions! I have a lot to work on.
 
About the calcs, the ones with higher values are the Strange Fake calc that Regis did and the ones from Prototype.

Not really sure if:

A) We should use the prototype feat and just sacle.

or B) Use the Strange fake and ignore the Prototype one.
 
The calc that I did for Gilgamesh's reactions.

We discussed the FSN Saber and Rider run up a building calc here: Fate/Stay Night Servants Speed Upgrade

It was rejected as DontTalk wasn't sure the timeframe was accurate as it involved FTE statements, which made it difficult as we didn't have a proper standard for determining timeframes from that, due to how the human eye process visual information and how that can affect the assumptions. A thread was made about that here.

Mordred's calc was discussed briefly here in the first few posts, and people weren't sure whether it was an application of KE rules that we use here or calc stacking.
 
Understood! Well, it was worth the shot and the Proto calcs should still be discussed.
 
My thoughts on the speed:

1. Few issues that were already brought up on the blog about Strange Fake speed calc. Gilgamesh materialized his armor and deflected the arrow after it passed his defensors. It moved faster than lightining and several lightning bolts couldn't catch it (Don't know if it matters for the calculation if there was one or more bolts.). Gilgamesh was in a position to move out with Tine, so I don't think he was crossing his arms at that point, therefore using "full arm" calc might be better. The whole feat is supposed to be really impressive, but the mid calc gives as a speed comparable to every other servant.

2. Prototype calcs. Saber can keep up with Gilgamesh and react to his projectiles. Is this refering to Mach 235 or Mach 940? Mach 235 matches the high end calc from Strange Fake and could potentially justify that speed. Are Prototype Servants different from Servants from other Fate works? Are they boosted somehow? If not, then scaling might be a viable option.

Can we use Iskandar's statement that Cu's spear is FTL? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) One day, I hope.

 
Again, I'm not against using the FSF and Proto calcs.

Anyways, something that I've been thinking about that is very much minor but; why are Noble Phantasms listed before skills? The usual order is Class Skills, Personal Skills, Noble Phantasm, and this bothers me more than it should.
 
@Prom

I mostly ordered them that way because I thought I'd get the single most important thing out of the way before adding explanations on skills.

In addition, prior to that formatting style, Noble Phantasms were usually listed first anyway if the other skills were listed at all.

It's more personal preference than anything.
 
Well someone can correct me on this if I'm wrong, but aren't all heroes summoned from the Throne of Heroes which exists outside of normal time and space?

The only thing that really limits a Servant's output when summoned is the prana supply coming from the Master. Hence why Karna is heavily nerfed in Extra with Jinako or Arturia with Shirou.

If there really isn't quality difference in the Master, shouldn't they generally be the same across all incarnations? Thus, the Strange Fake Gil shouldn't really differ so much from the Stay Night Gil and so on. The one with a huge difference is Extra, and we already account for that version's differences and power ups on his profile already.

In conclusion, if Strange Fake Gil was capable MHS speed, why wouldn't his Stay Night version be capable of the same if they are the same person?
 
ThisIsMySwagPack said:
Can we use Iskandar's statement that Cu's spear is FTL? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) One day, I hope.
Click to expand...
Well...we already have LS attack Archimedes, Immeasurable Dantes, etc

That's something...

Also i forgot about the calc based on the Enkidu's Np animation.
 
The FTL spear is probably the heartstabber since it's already there once it's cast.
 
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