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Downgrades for Re Zero Top tiers

Celestial_Pegasus

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
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So for a while now the feat which puts the top tiers of the verse at low 6-B has been kind of iffy to me, even though i was largely responsible for the ratings

So the feat in question is based on the this feat:

"A misty white chill—cold enough to almost freeze the very air—dominates the world. The frozen forest trees break apart with every gust of the wind, unable to maintain their existence in this mana-wrung environment as they return to dust. The trees, the towns, the creatures, the world, all turn to thousands of crystalline white particles in the gale, white demise slowly encroaching on the realm."

Reinhard later destroys and rebirths this "world" that was frozen:

""Hearing it through, Reinhardt swings up his sword, and with one flash of swordcery—following the edge of the glinting sword out bursts an incredible wave of energy. It cleaves through the sky, drills through the air, shatters the ground, roils the ambient mana, rending everything which was in the blade's path in two—the light settles, and the sight before Subaru's consciousness slips. Subaru: <—> That world, covered in its frigid chill—after the torrential sword-slash settles, it rebirths.

The slippage in the world is rectified, the once-roiled mana forms a ring as it recirculates through the world, the once-shattered earth blooms with flowers, the once-pierced air abounds with gaiety, and down from the once-cleaved sky there shines sunlight. Simultaneously bringing the end and rebirth of the world, the Sword Saint's strike. The colossal beast stricken with the attack remains as not even a trace, completely extinguished from the universe. Assuredly present until just a few seconds ago, the behemoth is gone, and no hint of the destruction it caused remains. Subaru: <—> Reinhardt sheaths his knightblade in its scabbard. Wind caressing his red hair as he squints up at the sunlight, Reinhardt slips a sigh so faint as to be inaudible. Reinhardt: "—Felt-sama will be surely be sad." He murmurs, eyes closed."

Ok so reinhard with one sword swing of reid killed puck and erased all the damage he did. Now the world in question being rebirthed here isn't the literal world, cause a little before reinhard said this:

Reinhardt: "...I will be safeguarding against any further casualties now. If you're to resent, resent me."

So puck didn't freeze the entire world cause clearly people were alive and reinhard wants to stop him from killing anymore people. Another thing is that puck's freezing isn't instant, as soon as he goes to his beast of the end form it starts to snow and gradually everything in the surrounding freezes and continues to spread, so even if he froze the world, we don't have a time frame.

The calc which puts puck at low 6-B assumes that he froze up to the capital of the country from roswaals mansion where he was initially due to it being stated puck froze towns. There is no statement he froze the capital, so we can't assume he did, and considering the capital is an important place if he did freeze it the author would probably say he did.

So i am proposing we downgrade puck, shaula, roswaal and sekhmet from low 6-B. Base reinhard should be 7-B due to being superior to regulus who has been stated to destroy cities in the past and was going destroy the city reinhard was in.While the rest should scale to minerva who can rapture mountains which makes her low 7-B.
 
It looks reasonable to downgrade given the points done and made and how it wasn't instant and all that.

Too bad we gotta take out that Reinhard vs Chris fight then...
 
We literally have zero to no feats of the top tiers going all out, it's a bummer.

Besides from this puck freezing feat all we have is a statement that roswaal vs puck resulted in the topography of the area they were in being changed and a new map of the area needing to be redrawn.

There is already material of reinhard going all out in base and even using reid but it isn't translated, instead we get a bunch of rem side stories, so stuck with the characters being downgraded for now.
 
@Celestial: Reid should be downgraded as well since his low 6-B comes from the fact he can behead Sehkmet and puck.
 
But anyways, does that mean only...Satella and everyone whose...idk, i guess scaled from her still be High 6-A then?
 
Reinhard will keep his High 6-A key just the Low 6-B Key will go down to 7-B

Reinhard\Reid\Satella and possibily shaula all keep the High 6-A keys
 
Wait, but shouldn't the low end still apply, since it was the distance from the mansion to the nearest town? Although it may not be a good feat for Puck anymore due to the timeframe, if Reinhard could undo it in a single slash wouldn't that put him at island level? And is there any indication to the timeframe at all? If it took something like an hour, then the energy Puck would have produced per second using the low end would be city level (rather than small city level).
 
We don't know the distance to the nearest town, and it's irrelevant as a feat for reinhard with reid since he is already High 6-A.

And there is no timeframe for the feat, basically through something called a trial in arc 4 subaru was able to see what happens after he dies, and reinhard vs puck is one, it's what happened after he died against puck in ep 15 of the anime.

He is immediately shown "the world" frozen and reinhard pops up to stop puck, nothing stated about a time frame.
 
I see, I misread and didn't realize he was doing that with Reid. Oh well.

It won't change anything, but wasn't the point of the low end to try to calculate the distance to the nearest town and use that to find the AP?
 
We don't know the nearest town, well we do, but i can't remember the name off the top of my head, it's where subaru stop with rem in ep 14, but we don't know how far that is from the mansion.
 
Eh, I think you forgot that our radius was 600 km, before Puck could reach the capital; that radius' calculated surface area is 0.2503% of the surface area of the Re:Zero world. This assumes that Puck could not even destroy the capital neighboring the Roswaal Mansion.

Check the calc again, and again what Lina calculated.


Blahblah9755's observation is correct. Puck's feat wasn't eve 0.25% of the world (to clarify that I am not making a mistake, this is 1/4 of 1 percent of Re:Zero). That's why he's only small country level.

It takes 6 hours for Reinhard to find Puck if he's riding a ground dragon. (Mach 0.08)

The Japanese novel said Puck destroyed Cities. Plural.


Edit: surface area
 
We also have this, by the way.


Mansion - Sanctuary distance: 7-8 hours (use 7 hours)

Human walking speed: 5 km/hr

Carriage walking speed: 15 km/hr


7 hours * 15 km/hr = 105 km radius


AoE Surface Area: 34,636.06 km2

3.4629265 x 10^14 kg * 1,158 J/kg C * 288 C = 1.1548998e+20 joules = 27.698611377 Gigatons or Island level


Which is 0.0172% of the world.


So destroying the Sanctuary only is already Island level (6-C), which is 105 km radius (this can easily be changed to 120 km by adopting 7~8 hours calc. Or by logical assumption that a dragon carriage can't be half as slow as a normal human). But this is also a low end because Sanctuary is a single village and not even a town (English) or cities (Japanese original).

It takes Roswaal 2 minutes to reach Sanctuary from his Mansion at his Mach 2 flightspeed. I do not know if Reinhard is slower.

Ros-1499224487
Ros-1499224487
 
Reading the cal it says "this calculation makes use of the distance between Roswaal Mansion and the nearest full-sized city, the Lugnican capital, for determining the AoE but leave the city unaffected."

I have an issue with the distance being from the mansion to the capital, there is no proof it reached that far. All puck forze was:

"A misty white chill—cold enough to almost freeze the very air—dominates the world. The frozen forest trees break apart with every gust of the wind, unable to maintain their existence in this mana-wrung environment as they return to dust. The trees, the towns, the creatures, the world, all turn to thousands of crystalline white particles in the gale, white demise slowly encroaching on the realm."

Towns doesn't mean the capital, the capital is a city, however there is a town between the mansion and the capital it's Fleur, if you find the distance the mansion and that i would have no issues there i guess, probably can if you look back at ep 14.

The Japanese could mean towns or city scrapes from what i remember google gave me, also remember it gave me a translation that the creatures of the world were frozen or something.

Don't think we should take the distance to the sanctuary cause it's pretty far away and even on the way to the sanctuary there are other forests, forests doesn't necessarily mean sanctuary, the world in general from what we have or at least from the roswaal part is pretty forested.
 
Fleur takes half a day on dragon carriage. That's much farther than Sanctuary and will result in High 6-C. It would take Roswaal/Puck 4 minutes to reach it.

And I told you that "unable to destroy the capital" was a mid-end that resulted in High 6-C. The mid-end just became Low 6-B because the LN version increased the distances significantly compared to the WN translation I was using. (likely for Fleur as well, which can bump it back up to Low 6-B too)
 
And we encounter a serious narrative problem when an event barely devastates 0.017~0.25% of the world, but the author says that the same event is destroying the realm and the world attempts to meet a merciful end. I know we don't take this literally to mean all of it, which we in fact had not done, but you know even 1% of it is OOM more destructive than the piss in the ocean that we just calculated.
 
Ok, now lets run back through why it would apply to puck again, so lets agree he froze everything up to Fleur, it wasn't an instantaneous feat, and we aren't quite sure how long it took him to do that, i remember you saying that just creating the storm that could do that has that much energy or something. Puck freezes everything just by existing in that form so would it be a natural feat for him or just environmental destruction is the question now i guess.
 
Roswaal's speed when traveling between cities is above Mach 2 already in anime. This puts a hard cap on how long it takes to find Puck. Mach speeds is between thousands of kilometers, not a hundred (traveling at 1 km per second).
 
Don't really think you can do that, might be calc stacking cause you are using the results from one calc which is obtaining roswaal's speed and then applying to puck to define how long it takes for him to freeze things.
 
I expected you to say that and I have to argue not in this case. The main reason is that Roswaal's speed is by direct observation. The second is that we only need to find a rough ballpark because of the scale of the event ("it does not make real-life sense to take hours to find Puck if he crosses the Mansion and Fleur in 200 seconds", so several minutes ~ several ten minutes in favor of several hours, especially given the daytime that I will describe below shortly). Hypersonic events require microseconds of precision, so calc stacking is indeed dangerous, but in our case, we are talking about geologic scale events thousands of times longer. Nuclear explosion calculators that we use for our TNT equivalents assume the destruction of cities at Mach 1 overpressure wavefront speed. (likewise, the Chicxulub meteor would have taken several ten minutes for the debris to reach the other end of the American continent to kill the dinosaurs there, but this did not affect its parameters (High 6-B or to destroy the American continent over several minutes ~ ten minutes, when its instant impact zone was only 90 km))

A hypersonic combatant who can destroy islands at his speed will destroy the whole planet in ten seconds ~ minutes because he has already Island-attacked millions of times. That doesn't mean he will ever be treated on a level with Vitiate (High 6-A) who wipes off planet Ziost's entire surface over several minutes. Well it's a rough comparison but, to put it into perspective.

In Reinhard's case, he has a compelling reason to find Puck as fast as he can as his main objective is preventing casualties the longer he takes. It was daytime with the sun high in the sky during the world restoration, roughly around the same time as when Subaru died. So we would only have to determine if it took on the same day or the next day.
 
So, if we use world-endng natural disasters as an example, where they get Small Continent (High 6-B) feats for being able to destroy an American continent over several minutes, when their 1-second impact destruction itself was only Mountain level, would you agree to cut Puck's feats by a few times?
 
It's still calc stacking, cause you're using an assumed speed from one character to justify how fast another character can do something, unless it's explictly stated that roswaal moves at mach 2 in the story then i don't think you can use roswaal to scale puck in this case.

In the other case again we have no timeframe for the feat, you are assuming one again we don't know if the feat happened within the same day or maybe a week, reinhard can reach puck relatively quick yes but for one we don't even know where reinhard was, we do actually he was at the astrea house with puck, but he wasn't in the capital, so it could have taken a while before he noticed puck was doing something. Puck could have been freezing stuff for a week before reinhard got news about puck.
 
My last proposal. Instead of At least Low 6-B, you can change it to Likely. If the mid-end feels too much you may choose one of the lower ends we calculated.


I dislike getting tied up for long or draining my energy debating weak verses that I am not attached with, so I'll keep it short. Either you will accept the suggestion or not.


At this point all the calcs I made with Lina Shields for Puck and 4~5 other characters scaling to him became fully invalid because we could just give him "7-B" to begin with (as in nothing in that blog + couple others is now salvagable in any form unless you accept my proposal), which I remember spending many weeks on, I'll just quit Re:Zero sometime. The amount of effort I put in is returning a lot of sunk cost. It's been a whole year since I've last made feats for Re:Zero anyways.


My sole concern has been the return to the lack of visibility to people unfamilar with the verse that Puck can obliterate a land mass much bigger than Japan, but if you are committed to return characters to states that can barely threaten a city then there is not much more I can do.
 
I still don't think the current rating is correct, because we have no time frame, and will be making assumptions about how long the feat took when we have no proof, the feat is too vague.

For now we should downgrade the characters, and if in the future there is a feat on that level, we can just upgrade them again, a manga or anime would help a lot to see exactly the damage puck did, but that's of course far off from happening, plus there would still be an issue of the time frame, maybe tappei elaborated on the feat more clearly in the LN? We don't know cause the english translations aren't that far. For now in lack of adequate proof we have to downgrade them.
 
Just keep in mind that city freezers are intuitively unable to threaten even 0.5% of a world that was much smaller than Earth to begin with, which breaks the setting's narrative. Puck will literally need years to arrive at Tappei's described destruction at the current stat we are looking at. it's actually unlikely he can ever overcome a small fraction of the world's own heat environment. Megatons are inconsequential to heat exchange that casually shift around teratons in real life.

The stat goes against what happens in the story. That's it.

Likely or Possibly is another option but you will insist anyways.
 
Last calc. Piling up megatons for a couple of weeks doesn't mean Puck's cold will reach Fleur on Day 20. The heat will be naturally restored during daily cycles, so it will never leave a dozen kilometer boundary in the first place. That's the main flaw in freezing calcs because heat is an extremely fast process in-atmosphere. There is no tier 7 freezer who will ever reach Fleur in the time between Arc 4 and Arc 6.
 
It was still proven intrinsically false that puck did destroy the world, puck may have said he will destroy the world but ultimately the most he did was freeze some towns and forests over an unknown time frame, the feat is too vague, the only one who it would scale to is reinhard with reid and he already is rated higher.

I appreciate your efforts to improve the pages on this website by creating calculations, however if the calculations don't match up with what is presented on screen, which is that puck over a unknown period of time froze some towns, then we can't use it.
 
There is mathematically no freezing of Fleur village unless he does it in a very very short timeframe.

It's all or nothing. He either freezed in a short time frame or he never did. That's it.


And why yes. I never made Re:Zero vs in this site for a year now for similar reasons. I prefer to explain in a case by case basis why Puck is comparable to various combatants such as... Esdeath. I make personal arguments that Puck has destroyed several Cities before even Reinhard could find him, in the same discussion they insist that Reinhard only has Mach 10 reactions because they prefer to lowball Re:Zero characters. Even if Reinhard is riding only a dragon cart (yes cart), it's really hard for him not to reach Roswaal Forest in more than a few hours; it is incredibly hard to take more than a single night. This is very evident even by their standards.

A greater worry to them is that Reinhard's time increases Puck's radius to a level that is more consistent with Tappei's own narrative. Like, it becomes a tenth of Lugnica rather than 1 or 2 percent we were dealing with.

Keep in mind that fights are not isolated walking amalgamations of stats; we take logical real-life factors into consideration.

Anyways. I will not find further problems sharing data points with various conservative Re:Zero calculators (there is none of them here now, they are all gone) that town and world ender using a freezing mechanicism in a highly contested battlespace is evidently very self-contradictory. This discussion just helped me identify what those needed data points are.

If you keep believing that Reinhard was arriving at the source at half the human speed, I will just have to use the problems identified with it to inform the next calculator who will agree "well of course. That would not make real-life sense". Same people who struggle to agree Reinhard's reaction is above Mach 10 though.

(By the way. Puck would indeed be Island level even if Reinhard arrived at human speed and we divided the results from day -> seconds. And we are still only talking about like 0.1~0.2% of the Re:Zero world, even though Tappei's intent is far larger than that)


CP you should probably scrap some of the blogs now. A lot of them are just unusable (less importantly I don't want to be reminded how much I spent on them, it's just me).
 
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