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Downgrades for Re Zero Top tiers

We don't know how far away reinhard was, and i am not disputing that reinhard could reach Fleur quickly, reinhard however can't be in two places at once and he doesn't have senses that let him know what's happening everywhere in the country or something. Fleur being frozen quickly actually goes against what reinhard is capable of, if puck froze up to Fleur instantly, which is not even to the capital, and reinhard was already further away from the capital, he wouldn't know what happened, in fact no one would cause everyone up to there would be dead, it is only if someone was passing by and saw that, that could happen and then news gets spread around and reinhard shows up to deal with the problem, there needs to be time in between for news of puck's rampage gets to reinhard, after which of course reinhard could reach where puck is quickly.

So again the feat has issues, i think you are stuck on tappei saying puck froze the world and take it too seriously, authors can contradict themselves whether in story or by outside statements, what they say isn't absolute, puck's feat has clear contradictions with it.
 
Okay. I will tell you how how contradictions work. If Puck needed 1 day to reach Fleur (3 mph), then it means normal humans outrun Puck's heat by walking.

Yes indeed. You walking (not running) out of your house is faster than how fast Puck destroys the house you live in.

Just putting it into perspective. Ok. You have to take realistic factors into consideration. Town Puck doesn't mean he reaches Fleur at Day 20 or Day 30. He just never does.

Anyways, I'm done editing Re:Zero profiles. As I've said, I debate Re:Zero in case-by-case discussions rather than by using isolated stats. When I explained that Puck taking half a day or 1 day to reach Fleur causes the above problem and makes him a walking joke (literally) to combatants, they knew I am right. Problem is even more complicated because they know Reinhard has blessings that allows him to locate and track people hours of journey ahead of him (which, of course, is only seconds ~ minutes from his perspective. Just he was explaining to a normal human)). News reaching is really not that hard because it would only take one night even at human speed that people are able to move.

If you don't start looking into realistic factors of how silly something looks in an actual VS or in the setting, and just look at isolated stats, we have cases like Mach 90 Soldier 76 from "outrunning a grenade explosio", in which case he could have just picked up the grenade and toss it away before it even exploded, or just intercept the grenade thrower by speedblitzing before he even threw it, changing the entire narrative of the whole "Soldier saved child from a grenade by being Mach 90" cinematic (the grenade sequence never happens in the first place if he's Mach 90). And of course, Puck needs several minutes to reach 500 meters during a fight.
 
The feat taking place in an instance doesn't make sense either, when puck goes beast of the end mode it starts snowing and gradually it spreads and the snow gets heavier, this is pretty obvious when he was facing off against betelguese, he didn't just instantly freeze everything up to Fleur, also again obvious when subaru was walking back to the mansion with the dead rem, the closer he got to the mansion the more it snowed, it wasn't everywhere when he was walking to the mansion it's only when he reaches arlam village from what i remember that it starts snowing, the point is that everything didn't get frozen instantly.

Your also giving reinhard too much credit, he isn't all seeing sense or anything, evident in the dark lord if where he couldn't do anything to stop the country from being set on fire.

Puck taking that long though by as you said human walking speed doesn't really make much sense, but the feat in general doesn't make much sense, it's suppose to be a world ending feat yet puck is a joke, he didn't completly freeze everything due to what reinhard said about safeguarding against causalties, and reinhard in base causally walks up to him and slams in the ground. There are also 3 other guys who are base reinhard level, or you could say at the very least puck level, guys like cecilius who can take on base reinhard and force him to draw reid. Puck woud never be able to freeze the entire world anyway.

The feat has too many issues, maybe what we saw of puck isn't really his full power, which is understandable since that freezing is just a direct result of his existence as he needs mana to sustain himself, so he absorbs it from his surroundings causing it to freeze. So maybe when he actively tries, he can freeze up to Fleur? There is no confirmation though so we can't say, we need proof.
 
I didn't say it's instant. I said it would take several hours, and if we divided that into a few seconds, it would result in 6-C.

Fleur is also a lowballing because Fleur has no cityscapes.


We don't consider April Fool's chapters canon btw. Characters in April Fool's can do things they are completely incapable of in canon. And again, Lugnica is an entire country; the feat we are talking about have always been about a surface area less than 0.5% of that.
 
Again no proof it took several hours, we have no time frames at all, cityscapes was just from google translate, i would take the translations we got that says towns over that any day, but whether it meant city scrapes or towns is irrelevant since there is still no time frame for the feat.

I know april fools is non canon but that wasn't the point, you were insinuating that reinhard somehow is aware of everything that happens in the country, or at the very least that he would somehow be aware of puck despite being far away, which is completely overestimating reinhard, at the end of the day he is still one person, he can't be in two places at once, if reinhard had such an ability, there wouldn't be a story as he would have dealt with the witch cult due to knowing where they are and what not.
 
I mean wow. I just pointed out Puck would need several minutes to reach 500 meters if Fleur took a single day. That is exactly how "contradictions" work.

Native language > fan translation. However, I'm also sure the fan translator is being innocent and he simply changed cities into towns, being commonly interchangeable, and I said Fleur is a lowball, not that it's unacceptable. It's only here that people believe Fleur contains a cityscape (which they can check by themselves because they are reading the native one).

I wasn't insinuating. I'm saying the April Fools doesn't contradict Reinhard being able to reach in less than a day, especially because normal people can do it. You insinuate it does contradict, I'm saying it doesn't.
 
Why would it make a difference if it puck would needed several minutes to reach 500 meters, or day, where are you getting these time frames from? I am not saying the feat took an hour or a day, i am saying we have no idea how long it took it could have been a hour, it could have been a day, but we have no proof of that.

Did you get cityscrapes from google? If it's a point of contention, you will have to show proof it meant cityscapes and not towns which is still irrelevant anyway due to the lack of a time frame for the feat.

I have been saying that i think reinhard could reach puck quickly i wasn't contending that, what i was contending was that reinhard would somehow be aware that puck was rampaging destroying towns despite being hundreds of kilometers away.
 
Sighs. It's a "town" populated with multi-story buildings, not the tiny bungalow-populated village like Fleur. Re:Zero Wiki is the one that says Fleur is a town, not the novel. Yes, the novel is describing a scenary of rows of large story buildings having crumbled. So Fleur is indeed a conservative low-end.

Look. I am not trying to stop you from changing Puck's profile. I'm just saying that when Puck changes and people in the extant community notice it while consulting wikis for Puck's information, I'll be able to prove to them that the VS wiki was wrong (I just used the Overwatch case as similar example where I can do it easily). It's clear to them the VS stats means he's affecting the area slower than a human walking does, this is very scientific that it will not be hard to understand.

Royal Guards carry metia for long-range fast communication in case of emergency. In later arcs you will see them using it between towns.

Metia


That's all mate. Just change the profile and be done with it.


Edit: And as I've said, you have the option of making it 'Likely" from "At Least". That's entirely up to you.
 
Also. This is where native language and fan translations differ. Ending List. Arc 4 Chapter 71. Reinhard did not say casualties of people. He said he'll prevent further damage to the world and then he proceeded to repair it. He quite very clearly did not refer to casualties.

ÒÇî……ÒüôÒéîõ╗Ñõ©èÒü«Þó½Õ«│Òü»Úÿ▓ÒüîÒüøÒüªÒüäÒüƒÒüáÒüìÒü¥ÒüÖÒÇéµü¿ÒéÇÒü¬ÒéëÒÇüÒüôÒü«ÕâòÒéÆÒÇì

The context of Reinhard's ending note changed significantly just because some fan translator decided to change damage to "casualties" on his own (I'm not saying it was bad, just that it was imprecise and not what was actually written by the author), rather than the damage to the world Puck is inflicting as it should have been properly translated. Take note that fan translations are just that; fan works. It can be altered from the actual source material. Reinhard was not talking about people. Ok.

So I'm gonna have to ask you to correct this statement in the original post:

clearly people were alive

That it was actually not 'clear' at all. It was your assumption. Based on a word that wasn't even used.

I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying you should change it.

Or actually, you don't need to. I'll just be able to inform debaters on my own that the change is based on the personal assumption that Reinhard said something "clearly people were alive", which he in fact didn't say and that's what he thinks contradicts Tappei's own statement. That's it.

I mean this isn't even "intrinsically false" because it's based on a wrong statement. Seriously.
 
We can get that translated to settle the issue, of whether he said further casualties or further damage, still though if he was trying to prevent further damage anyway it would still imply puck hadn't frozen everything as there was still something else to damage.

Regardless of that though, there is no way puck could have frozen the entire world, cause for one, once it reached where reinhard was he would immediately deal with puck, so it wouldn't leave lugnica, and as i already said there are 3 other guys who could deal with puck.

Fleur is a low end for the feat, but still the feat has no time frame, we don't know how long it took him, we can't just assume stuff.
 
The whole world end thing with puck is mere joke and exaggeration from author just for the sake of it, no way in hell he even made it close to outside lugnica and if Reinnhard didn't deal with him there many characters out there would did it heck if roswaal wasn't injured at the time he won't even make it past sanctuary

This been going on and one about the same thing, we're going no where with this assumption, no time frame = shaky feat and a lot of assumptions, we can't just keep assuming things

Best thing to do is scale puck to minerva and add "likely higher" because of the world freezing claim
 
Ok. I made 2-page replies, twice, because the first one was gone when I first made it and the Reply button went wrong (it went white and the whole post was gone, puff). I remade it entirely from scratch one more time, then Reply decided to go wrong again. At this point I am about to start writing expletives. So I'll just close it.

CP. You are not going to agree on simply Likely or Possibly instead of At least, right? That's my last concern, because debaters are going to use it anyways. My main task is that they are properly informed that the only contradictions are a botched translation, the accusation to Tappei that he was lying through his teeth and he's a joke, and this site's exclusive calc stacking policy put in effect in blanket applications. Otherwise it's fine, I'll just have to remember to explain it.

I was just hoping I could still convince them to use VS wiki as a source and encyclopedia because they told me not to, which I tried a lot to change for the past year, and they prefer to directly use the source material. That's how Puck's always been a continent level. A good analogy is this another world-ending character that I helped make profile last year, whose feat is weaker than Puck's (but received better ratings due to better calculations and moderation oversight of a weaker feat). https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Trundle

Welp that's it. You can still find me there. And you have to fix this posting issue sometime, which is making Replies completely gone when people click it. I know it's not the site's fault but it's still making me feel angry. You know the feeling when your homeworks gone because of brown outs. I think I can symphatize.
 
@Heinkel

The wikia posts time out after 20 minutes, and sometimes disappear anyway, so if you write long texts, always save them in a word processing program before submitting them. I have informed the official Fandom staff about it in the past, and also find it very frustrating.
 
@Heinkel I already agreed with zero above about adding likely higher, puck and everyone who scales to him, would be at least small city level, likely higher.
 
I am proposing making it Likely Tier 6 rather than just Likely Higher which honestly won't make people use a 7-A version of Puck at all. I'm saying if people agree Puck could do it in a few hours on a case-by-case basis, to make fights against Tier 6 fairer, we can use that.

I am just saying Tier 6 should at least be mentioned for visibility because there's likelihood that he can do so. Otherwise people won't even be aware that they can attempt to debate a Tier 6 Puck. I am requesting that they be at least given the chance to debate.

@Zero

The only people who can legitly stop Puck among 1) Reinhard 2) Ram (horned adult) 3. Regulus 4. Sekhmet 5. True Form Puck, are the alive ones, Reinhard and Regulus only. Sekhmet is dead, Roswaal is indisposed, Ram doesn't have her horn, Regulus dies if his wives of normal human durability die (which Tappei did agree Puck can win if the distance between Regulus and his wives is short), and Regulus doesn't have the travel speed, clairvoyance, and metia communication to reach Puck fast before his wives die. I am not asking you to agree with me. I'm only pointing out that I already have this counter-argument available why there are only 2 who could stop Puck and only 1 can do so reliably. That is Reinhard.
 
Hmm, i think we could go with a possibly rating and mention the feat, as i do think it warrants that due to what we have seen before just being a result of puck existing and not actually attacking, if he actually attacked he could possibly destroy up to Fleur, possibly, but the issue is again the unknown time frame.

Guess we could say he at least destroyed up to Fleur however the time frame is unknown, and would depend on how long it would take for reinhard to get news of puck's rampage.
 
Well Pegasus. I'd still appreciate it if I can salvage my blog. So, instead of Possibly High 6-C, that I have to perform another calc for and make the rest useless anyway, can we just use Likely 6-C using the Sanctuary which isn't very far and the only village away from Roswaal Mansion? (the Arlam village is just practically right next to the Mansion, the Sanctuary is the next closest one) We won't need to mention that the distance increased by 33% either from the WN to the LN, which is less significant for Sanctuary than it is for Fleur and more justifiable.

I want to propose as such so that I won't have to make another calc + the existing one is still relevant and we can salvage the time and effort we spent on it.

In addition, Emilia also has similar feats of freezing several elven towns in a short time frame during the Emilia & Fortuna vs Pandora fight, so this will not necessarily be a stretch that Puck who is stronger can likely do the same. Not a guarantee, but it's still a likelihood as he's stronger.

Especially because Arc 3 translations are not available, which the one that contains the chapter that says Fleur is 12 hours away from Roswaal Mansion at 15 kph (16 hours if LN).

Honestly, I was also hoping we can scale Puck to Suicide Emilia (rather than Minerva) for his At Least rating because Puck would be fine approaching her. I'll be able to support Large City 7-A by comparing the size of real-life cities to the sections of Elior Forest Emilia froze.
 
@Cross no.

@Heinkel Is sanctuary farther away than Fleur? If so yea we can use it, and i only agree with possibly here, not likely.

And emilia only froze elior forest which is of unknown size, so that can't justify puck's feat, there are no other feats on what we currently list puck as, i mean from the top tiers, mostly due to the fact we have no translations for their fights.
 
Sanctuary is much nearer than Fleur, it's still inside the Roswaal Forest. I was proposing Likely because it is far more likely than the possibility of Puck doing so to Fleur which is much farther away.

Otherwise, eh, we'll stick with Possibly High 6-C using Fleur then.

For At Least, I mean Emilia froze several towns at the same time. This is Multi-Town level at least, in surface area.
 
Since sanctuary is nearer than we can use the calc, and give a possibly rating for freezing up to fleur which is further than sanctuary, in an unknown time frame which depends on how long it took news to reach reinhard, who subsequently showed up to stop puck from causing anymore damage.

What feat are you referring to with emilia? Emilia has never frozen any towns, only thing on such a scale she has frozen is elior forest.
 
Roswaal: "I don't know how much you know, buuuuut it's fine to generally go off that impression. The elves constructed towns, and quiiiiiietly went to live deep in the forests. —Elior Forest, used to be one of those elf territories."

Roswaal's tone changes. Subaru's shoulders shake. It feels as though the room's temperature is dropping, as if Roswaal's words hold some indescribable power. Subaru remembers hearing the name of this forest before.


—Elior Forest was a name that had come up several times while negotiating in Crusch's mansion. It was a location rich with magic ores, in a territory under Roswaal's management. And,


Subaru: "It's frozen solid, and nobody can get near it..."


Roswaal: "The first freezing of Elior Forest, and its subsequent spreading is now recorded as an event from over 90 years ago. It is a world of absolute zero which freezes all, which freezes every living creature. —She lived in that world, all by herself."

Alright. So At Least [Emilia feat], Likely 6-C, Possibly higher (could freeze up to Fleur before Reinhard could reach) right? I know it's higher, just that it can save me some time asking Zero to ask someone to ask for Arc 3 translation of the Fleur passage and then recalculate again.
 
We can also use this for forest size. It's from the University of Connecticut, College of Agriculture and Natural Resources, Center for Land Use Education and Research. http://clear.uconn.edu/projects/landscape/forestfrag/measuring/core_explained.htm

The literature suggests that total forest cover within a landscape has a greater role in maintaining biodiversity than forest patch size (Lee et al. 2002). However, the importance of forest patch size is still clearly significant for certain species (Lee et al. 2002; Mortberg, 2001; Villard et al. 1999; Andren 1996). The Environment Canada report (2004) suggests that 250 acres should be considered the absolute minimum forest patch size needed to support area-sensitive edge-intolerant species. The recommended minimum forest patch size is 500 acres, as this is likely to provide enough suitable habitat to support more diversity of interior forest species. These two guidelines are reflected in the medium and large core categories in this study. The smallest core size in this study is smaller than these habitat-based guidelines, based on the fact that these smaller areas are still valuable from forestry and other perspectives.

Forests small than that will die off and unable to sustain a self-sustaining ecosystem.
 
Emilia has nothing to do with this, it's a feat she perform while enrage and overcasting her magic, and emilia in that state may have been said to be stronger than puck or had more mana or something i don't exactly remember so don't quote me on that.

She still only froze towns inside a forest of unknown size, for all we know those towns are just as big as arlam village which is also inside a forest.

Plus those towns were again within the same forest, towns with hudreds of km between them(puck)> towns inside a single forest (emilia), big difference.
 
Isn't Puck the same person who broke Emilia out of her overcasted magic? And remember when it was I who pointed that out the first time, you were the one who said Suicide Emilia still can't be comparable to Puck. (when Pandora said "a being matching your power comes (at the exact moment when Emilia was in her suicidal state; she was comparing Puck to her suicidal state rather than normal state)", and when I reasoned out that this means Suicide Emilia = Puck, you said no, because Suicide Emilia doesn't even belong in the Top 5)

Let's disregard the town thing for now. The thing is Emilia froze 250 acres of forest near-instantly during her fight with Pandora. This is not unknown, this is the absolute minimum size that a forest can exist in nature without the population dying off. Recommended minimum size is 500 acres. I don't know if it's enough to sustain a village/town of elves though.

If Emilia can freeze a 250/500-acre forest near instantly, then Puck can do so near instantly (in his case not being suicidal) and this would be his At least rating. This is the smallest thing we know he can do.
 
Puck wasn't able to unfreeze emilia, unfreezing the entire forest is outside his capabilities, that's why emilia needs dragon blood and not just let puck do it. Emilia's freezing is clearly special however.

Is 250 acres like the average size of a forest? If so then what would this translated to in terms of ap? Emilia's ice is special but in turns of ap she isn't puck level though, we could scale off her i guess. Now that i think about it i remember emilia saying she could freeze an entire forest if she had puck, so would be consistent.
 
Not average, absolute minimum. Below this you won't have small animals able to live long. Humans will just starve and die. Recommended minimum size for animals was 500 acres. We need a forest that a few hundred elves decided to make a living out of in exile. This is probably the best estimate we can make: https://www.smallfootprintfamily.com/how-much-land-is-needed-to-be-self-sufficient

However, now that I think of it, it's only a small bump while using minimum sizes (villages/towns of a few hundred elves subsisting together in an area the size of a city~large city) that I don't feel if it's worth making one for a small upgrade yet. I'll contact you if I ever do make it.

So we are still using the Likely 6-C, Possibly higher with the existing blog, right? Until I can make new calcs.
 
Where is likely 6-C from though? Freezing the forest? I thought freezing up to sanctuary was 6-C or high 6-C whichever it was, and that's only as a possibly rating, there is no likely.
 
Freezing up to sanctuary was 6-C which is about 1/3 the distance the Light Novel Fleur is at, and 7 times the minimum for Island level (6-C is only 1.6% the result of the Fleur calc if I make it). Sanctuary's well within the boundary of the same forest as Roswaal Mansion.

The Fleur calc will be about 70 times that figure when I make it.

My suggestion was Likely 6-C (Sanctuary) and Possibly higher (Fleur). I proposed this to make the old blog salvageable, and because the short distance makes it much more likely.

If you are going to use Possibly only then I'll have to scrap it and make a new calc for Fleur, obviously we can't have two Possiblies and confuse people
 
What we have now is At least Small City level (Superior to minerva), Possibly Island level (Froze towns, with the nearest town being Fleur which is farther than the sanctuary (here we would just insert calc for freezing sanctuary). It is however unknown how long it took for the feat to be completed, and is entirely dependent on how long it would take for reinhard to get news of puck's destruction and in turn respond).

We don't need any calc for Fleur.
 
Well I'm still going to make one. I ask you to add Possibly High 6-C/Low 6-B once I make the Fleur calc.

I can't accept using Sanctuary only when that's a single village, when the WN clearly said townS.

This is also literally next door. How would Puck destroy any town without even leaving the forest?

Look. The same translation that you stick to clearly says it's a village, not a town. They use totally different words, both in translations and native language. Use the same standard that it's not a town, and even if you handwaive that it is, it's only one.
 
I've edited the blog. It's High 6-C. I was still able to use Lina's calc.

When you translate the whole chapter that I linked, you'll notice that it refers to Fleur consistently as a village every time. They are using a different word for it than town every time. As an example, look at the last sentence of the chapter when he talks to Otto for the first time. Subaru says:

ÒÇîÒüôÒü«µØæÒü½ÒééÒÇüÞç¬ÕëìÒü«þ½£Þ╗èÒéƵîüÒüúÒüƒÕòåõ║║Òü¿ÒüïÒü»ÒüäÒéôÒüáÒéì´╝ƒ ÒüØÒüäÒüñÒéëÒü¿õ║ñµ©ëÒüîÒüùÒüƒÒüäÒÇéõ╗▓õ╗ïÒÇüÚá╝ÒéüÒéïÒüï´╝ƒ

Fleur is referred to as a village throughout the chapter and also in the few chapters before and after that, until the end of Arc 3. But I will respect your decision for now and use Fleur village as our frame of reference.

The reason why nobody knows that Fleur even exists or is just a tiny village is because no one bothered to translate Arc 3. Everyone is interested in post-Anime Arc 4~6 only. The Re:Zero wiki is the only one that has any mention of Fleur and also the only one that says it's a small stopover town. So keep that in mind in the future.


What is the possibility that we can use Lugnica capital again when someone translates Arc 4 Chapter 71 back to city/cityscapes? I am very sure by this point that it does not refer to Fleur, i'm just waiting for translation. We can then use Low 6-B again with the same condition attached.

I'll also be able to make a City level calc for Puck by wiping out Roswaal Mansion while he was rampaging in Arlam vililage instantly. I'll see what I can do.
 
That rating for tohru should be removed, in fact there was a thread for her downgrade i was in that thread, just that nobody gave it attention why she hasn' been downgraded yet.
 
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