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Nicol Bolas Vs Madoka Kaname

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Imo Bolas seems to have a bit more raw power, but Madoka is quite difficult to put down without Conceptual Manipulation due to her type 8 and type 9 immortality, which are both conceptual in nature.

That, and I think that conceptual erasure takes care of mid-godly regen, so i'm voting for Madokami here.

Also you should equalize speed
 
Kaltias said:
That, and I think that conceptual erasure takes care of mid-godly regen, so i'm voting for Madokami here.
Click to expand...
Why? Conceptual erasure signifies erasing your opponent on a conceptual level. Destroying the idea/notion of that individual. But the sole purpose of mid-godly regen is to regenerate from absolutely nothing.

An abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances.
~ Concept's definition on Merriam Webster​
On-Topic: Possibly inconclusive because neither are capable of permanently destroying the oppression.

Madoka can't defeat Nicol due to his godhood immortality and mid-godly Regenerationn. While Nicol can't kill Madoka because of her abstract existence.
 
Conceptual erasure is an extremely potent form of erasue. Even if someone has regenerated from having their body and soul destroyed, that isn't a garantee they can regen from conceptual erasure. What is Bolas's regen feeat?

Also, Madoka could also destroy the concept of "Nicol Bolas's Regenerationn"

Combined with her conceptual abstract existence, I doubt he can do anything to put her down.

I'm voting Madoka
 
I'd rather you didn't patronise me. I'm quite aware what mid-godly regen is, and what the definition of nothing is, funnily enough.

There is a difference between someone regenerating from having their body and soul destroyed and having their concept destroyed

Concept destruction is stronger and more potent than mere body and soul destruction. If you want to say someone can regen from having their very concept destroyed, you are going to need an actual feat of that happening.
 
I don't recall Madoka (or anyone else in the series) just straight up Yawgmoth-ing a being of comparable status and power. The closest I can recall would be Homura tearing away part of Madoka in Rebellion.
 
Yawgmoth was an early M:tG villain, notable for being obscenely powerful compared to other 2-A beings in the setting. As in, "a tiny part of my essence touches you and completely erases you from existence" powerful.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
There is a difference between someone regenerating from having their body and soul destroyed and having their concept destroyed

Concept destruction is stronger and more potent than mere body and soul destruction. If you want to say someone can regen from having their very concept destroyed, you are going to need an actual feat of that happening.
Click to expand...
Nothing regarding mid-godly regen mentions mind, body and soul destruction. It explicitly states that characters are able to regenerate from nothing.
 
I'd say there are degrees of erasure and nothing, but I'm sure that would go over your head.

Regenerating from destruction of body and soul is Mid-Godly

Regenerating from destruction of your very concept and therefore everything else about you is also mid-Godly

But regenerating from one does not mean you can regenerate from the other.
 
You didn't...

Anyways, why concept manipulation is such a pretentious ability is what's actually over my head. Conceptual erasure doesn't bypass mid-godly Regenerationn. Erasing the concept of someone doesn't transcend nothingness.
 
Because nothingness is a vague term that can mean multiple things in fiction. It could mean they were sent to the void, had their "existing/nonexisting" information switched, had their body and soul destroyed, had their concept erased, etc.

Mid-Godly regen is a power like any other, and there are degrees, variations and specifications of it. Just because I can manipulate probability doesn't mean I can make it a 100% chance the world being rewritten as I want it. Just because I can manipulate someone's memories doesn't mean I can control their minds. Just because I can create fire doesn't mean I can create a sun.

Look. Just tell me what Bolas's mid-godly regen feat is, and I'll tell you whether or not it is something that can recover from conceptual erasure.
 
@Monarch

IIRC Bolas' Mid-Godly is just restoring himself after the destruction of his body and soul.
 
@The Everlasting, thanks.

@Conflicting Messiah, that is not a mid-godly regen capable of regening from conceptual erasure.
 
The Everlasting said:
If you get destroyed in body and soul, your concept still exists.
Click to expand...
Doesn't deteriorate my argument in any way. And Madoka can't erase things on a conceptual level. But as I stated above, it wouldn't be a factor regardless.
 
It kinda does deteriorate your argument. For one thing it means that what Bolas regened from was only a form of body and soul destruction, while conceptual erasure is a higher and more complete form of erasure.
 
I don't think Bolas can come back from full conceptual erasure. That's more of an Eldrazi thing.

That said, that doesn't really factor into this match, so I don't know why it's taking up so much of this thread.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
It kinda does deteriorate your argument. For one thing it means that what Bolas regened from was only a form of body and soul destruction, while conceptual erasure is a higher and more complete form of erasure.
Click to expand...
This is my original argument. I stated that conceptual erasure doesn't bypass mid-godly Regenerationn because they're capable of regenerating from nothing. Whether Nicol was capable or not didn't affect me. But I'll wait for someone with more M:TG knowledge to confirm if Nicol really has mid-godly Regenerationn. Because Everlasting clearly said "if I remember correctly".
 
You're taking the term "nothing" way too literally. It just means regenerating after the destruction of one's body and soul, which Nicol Bolas went through.
 
I'm taking the term "nothing" to literal because I'm going by it's definition? Fine, I'll stop. This argument is pointless anyways given Madoka can't erase things outside of witches.
 
He can't quite touch her due to her conceptual existance and her own conceptual manipulation being able to take him, so I go with Madoka.
 
SomebodyData said:
He can't quite touch her due to her conceptual existance and her own conceptual manipulation being able to take him, so I go with Madoka.
Click to expand...
Are you referring to the purely conceptual Madoka that exists outside the regular multiverse? Because she can't fight. Bolas can't permanently kill her, but she hasn't demonstrated conceptual manipulation anywhere near strong enough to put down Bolas.

Homura, maybe. Not Madoka.
 
You're right, hence the physical manifestations, which can be used to interact with the being?

Why Homura maybe, but not Madoka, considering Madoka's conceptual destruction feat, is severely superior to that of Homura's?
 
Because Homura actually demonstrated a feat of messing up another 2-A being on a conceptual level. Madoka has no such feat. Her feat is merely destroying a concept within the lower multiverse.
 
An infinite multiverse is 2-A, so why would she be unable to affect someone like Bolas? Plus concept manip is hax not AP
 
Ah, I see. I thought that manipulating a concept on a multiversal+ scale would be at least comparable though, to say that a being who hasn't shown resistance to 2-A conceptual hax would be too much for that conceptual hax seems off tho, am I missing something?
 
@Monarch

An infinite multiverse is not a 2-A character. That's not how that works. Getting rid of a concept from an endless number of 4-D universes =/= getting rid of the concept of a 2-A character.

Concept manipulation, like many other hax, has a heavily varying scale.

@SD

I would assume it would be enough to affect Bolas, but not enough to actually permanently destroy him. Considering he was suggested to survive if the things that powered him no longer existed, and that he would survive the multiverse being reduced to nothingness, even if Red, Black, and Blue Mana all stopped existing.
 
Hmm I see, then could she not simply try to incapitate Bolas, if she can't kill him?
 
@Azathoth, What I mean is that in order to be 2-A, you need to be able to create or destroy an infinite number of space-time continuum. Both Madoka and Bolas are capable of that, so they are on the same level, and if he doesn't have any resistance to concept manipulation, I don't see why she wouldn't be able to hax him to death with it.
 
@SD

She probably could, though I don't know for how long or how effective it would be.

@Monarch

Multiple discussions have been had about this. Having powers on a lower level of existence does not automatically mean they can be applied on the same scale to your higher level of existence.
 
Hmm I see then,in that case I'm still leaning on Madoka, but only with very high difficulty
 
@Azathoth, But she is not on a higher level of existence affecting a lower one. She is a 4-D concept able to affect the infinite space-times of the multiverse, same as Bolas is able to affect the infinite multiverse. They are on the same level in terms of both power and dimensions, but she has concept hax.
 
@Monarch

You misunderstand. Affecting a concept that exists in regular universes is easier than affecting the concept of an entity that exists beyond that. This is why Homura affecting Madoka is, for scaling purposes, more impressive than Madoka affecting the multiverse.
 
In that case leaning more towards inconclusive. I don't think that Madoka has ways to put him dowm for good, and Bolas is in the same situation.
 
Could Madoka try to mess with the mana to try a battle of attrition? Or Oldwalker Bolas has some tricks to prevent that?
 
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