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Shin Megami Tensei Discussion Thread II

Matthew_Schroeder

Matthew_Schroeder

VS Battles
Retired
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So, since the old thread is pretty much abandoned at this point, I have decided to create a new one.

In here shall all the general discussions about SMT IV: Apocalypse and Persona 5 go.
 
Good work. I do have a question about Demi-Fiend, though. I don't remember him having reality warping, time manipulation or spatial manipulation. Where do those come from?
 
Reality Warping is just a standard thing for a demon of his caliber, specially one who became the right hand man of Lucifer. He's showed some degree of time manipulation when he destroyed the concept of time. Spatial's the only one I kinda threw there, but I figure it goes hand in hand with the Reality Warping.
 
Oh, I see. I think I might buy Nocturne off of PSN soon. It's been years since I've played it. Do you plan on making a profile for Black Frost or Persona 5 characters soon?
 
Repeating my comment from the previous thread...

I've just seen things through to the end myself in SMT IV Final (Peace/Bonds Route).

Would YHVH get summoning abilities? He did summon like armies of other tier 2 beings like it wasn't even that big of a deal (Metatron horde, holy crap). Metatron even says he can summon as many of him as he finds necessary.
 
Well, yeah. The angels and demons are extensions of his Will and basically nothing but his puppets / pawns.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
How powerful would you people say Alice is?
Click to expand...
Main continuity Alice should be at least stronger than the likes of Belial and Nebiros, as she's usually portrayed as not only their boss but also harder to beat. I don't know where that would put her in the main storyline, but in the DS2 continuity she is the Superboss, so that's a thing to consider.
 
... She is the ultimate boss in Devil Survivor 2. Okay, that version of her is probably At least 2-A.

But what about regular Allie.
 
Aside from being stronger than Belial and Nebiros, the only thing I can remember from Alice in the Main Continuity is having the single most powerful insta kill spell in the series and usually being portrayed as being higher in position than your average demon.

If you discard that scalling...

She also fought the SMT:Strange Journey Party fairly deep in the game and while I don't see her being compared to endgame bosses such as Mastema and Demiurge, she should be at least higher than Yggdrasil and comparable to beings such as Aniel and the Four Riders.
 
On a separate note, it's kind of funny to see how salty OBD is about the new game because it devalues Hitoshura and Aleph on the ranking list.
 
Also, I'd like to point out that Alice's scalling of being the boss of Belial has been very consistent in SMT so far. She also fought Raidou Kuzunoha by herself (not counting the many fodders she summoned). Even here Nebiros and Belial come to her aid once she is beaten.

And pretty much all of the games so far where both of them appear in the story have some allusion to this where Belial follows her like a loyal servant. This goes way back, since the very first SMT game .
 
Nice work with the profile of Demi-fiend, Matt. But i alway though that his destroying the concept of time should be listed as conceptual manipulation (or conceptual destruction ? ). It's really okay to write it as "Time manipulation" ?

How powerful would you people say Alice is?

She doesnt has many feat other than being with her uncles. But if the player can fight her equally after fighting Nebiros and Belial, i think we can scail her to them.

Also, being the Ultimate Boss doesnt mean anything, really. If we're using that logic then we would have to rate Alice higher than Beelzebub (Beel level is 91 and Alice level is 99) , which doesnt sound right at all. Hence, the reason why i dont use the level system as the source for rating SMT characters

Would YHVH get summoning abilities? He did summon like armies of other tier 2 beings like it wasn't even that big of a deal (Metatron horde, holy crap). Metatron even says he can summon as many of him as he finds necessary.

Isnt the summoning ability was already a general ability for the demons ? a ton of demon in Devil Survivor can summon entire gang to fight the protagonist

Main continuity Alice should be at least stronger than the likes of Belial and Nebiros, as she's usually portrayed as not only their boss but also harder to beat

Nah, Alice isnt their boss. She is just a sweet child of Nebiros and Belial and they kinda spoiled her too much so she's just acting a little bossy. But she should be around Belial level for fighting the protagonists as the same time they fight Belial. So yeah, it's possible to have Alice at 2-B

On a separate note, it's kind of funny to see how salty OBD is about the new game because it devalues Hitoshura and Aleph on the ranking list.

Cant blame them though , everyone just loves Hitoshura (and i dont know why)


Well, that aside. I kinda excited for the new feat for Persona verse, since it's the most popular in SMT after all, did they get any new feat in Persona 5 ?
 
It does mean something being the Ultimate Boss. She fights the ENDGAME party of DESU 2 and yes, Alice in Desu 2 continuity is stronger than Beelzebub. They don't even let you fight her in your first playtrough and her die for me skill works almost like Freaking Voice of God, oneshotting anything unless it has resistance to Almighty attacks.

Right, they spoil her... And? That doesn't make her weaker than the both of them when she's always portrayed as stronger. Even in Raidou Kuzunoha they have to request Raidou to beat her because they couldn't get her back otherwise.

EDIT: And the summoning is a different thing when the character in question is not summoning fodder, but many of the highest tiers of the verse instead. LOL Makes sense though, since to YHVH, they should be fodder anyways.
 
Speaking of Mastema, Tons of Lucifer's demons get talked about, but where's the love for the angels? :) In IV Apocalypse he's level 93 and has the same Almighty affinity as Demiurge, +4. Given he was a key character in Strange Journey, he should at least be 2-A. I don't know where everybody else would say he is, but from what he's done so far, he's at least Metatron level.
 
That doesn't make her weaker than the both of them when they are always portrayed as stronger.

didnt say Alice was weaker, i'm just saying she would be "around" their level but she lack of feat to show that she's stronger than them. And i didnt got my hand on Raidou games yet so i dont know about it, but it's good enough to show that Alice is stronger than them :p

Speaking of Mastema, Tons of Lucifer's demons get talked about, but where's the love for the angels? :) In IV Apocalypse he's level 93 and has the same Almighty affinity as Demiurge, +4. Given he was a key character in Strange Journey, he should at least be 2-A. I don't know where everybody else would say he is, but from what he's done so far, he's at least Metatron level.

well, Mastema did said he's one of YHVH's highest herald in SMT 4, so why not ?
 
@MagiSinbad Ah, agreed on this one. Main Continuity Alice should be stronger than these two, but by no means strong enough to grant her a tier jump or anything.
 
I agree with MagiSinbad here. On the law side of things, Heralds are some of the strongest, only behind the direct avatars of YHVH(Demiurge, Ancient of Days), and the big two themselves. Aniel was able to fight against Flynn at the start of IV Apocalypse, and Mastema's way above him. While I think he's stronger, as a start, I agree with Tivanenk too in him being Michael level.
 
Zianmoon2 said:
Speaking of Mastema...Given he was a key character in Strange Journey, he should at least be 2-A. I don't know where everybody else would say he is, but from what he's done so far, he's at least Metatron level.
Click to expand...
Well, even in SJ, Mastema is really featless. He changed Zelenin into an angel and is only fought once in the Chaos Route. It is not long before fighting Mem Aleph so a possible 2-A.
 
Errr.... Matt...

(As the Ultimate Boss of Devil Survivor 2, she is likely comparable to Canopus)

I'm so NOT okay with this >__> not only it's inconsistent with scailing to stats, She's just the ultimate boss of Devil Survivor 2, Not Devil Survivor 2 Break Record (Devil Survivor 2 extended version,which include Break Record arc), and Alice was only the ultimate boss of first arc , and the fight with Canopus happened in the second arc.

So hell no, we cant scail to Canopus

EDIT : but in whole, the profile look very nice. Thank Matt
 
Okay. At least 2-A then?

Also, I just realized that the Apocalypse party is High 2-A. Walter + Jonathan = IV Satan, who is High 2-A
 
@MagiSinbad @Matt For her Ultimate Boss Key, at least 2-A sounds good. Much stronger than Polaris (who's at least 2-B), makes him look like a cakewalk and stronger than Beelzebub (At least 2-A) to boot, but still not as much of a threat to the party as the likes of Canopus.
 
Looks pretty good actually, practically nothing that I disagree with. Though High Tier is missing some characters like Baal and Belial, but it's a good start.
 
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