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Dragon Ball Z Speed Downgrades

Lightning_XXI

Lightning_XXI

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Ha, got you XD...Or I didn't ?

This isn't a CRT or a Downgrade, the title is full clickbait for 1st April, but this isn't Fun and Games, I have a questio, let's say, about Base Goku's speed, now, this might have being discussed many times over and over, I'm sorry, while I love Dragon Ball I don't follow their discussions here, so pardon me XD

So, what i want to ask:

As far as I can see, current DBZ profiles are 4-B at best and FTL+, going by DarkDragonMedeus's Blog about their stats, however, there is something that kinda bugs me

I see that we are using Kaioken's Multiplier, it helps a lot during the beggining since it takes Relativistic feats to FTL, then, Goku's base form reaches the level of him with Kaioken from earlier sagas, and the multiplers are again applied, reaching FTL+, currently at 45.952c, and only a higher with SS Forms

Now, why ? I see that Base Goku on Boo Saga is FTL+ in base (I believe he scales to 45c ?), a simple 3x Kaioken would put him at Massively FTL, and I believe we all know that Super Saiyan Forms are capable of boosting his speed higher than 3x. My bet is that we just don't want to abuse on multiplers, but being honest, I guess Dragon Ball doesn't quite cares for that, either we use the multiplers or we don't, I simply don't see a reason to use there just to get FTL and then not use here, not only it goes against our currently use of the Kaioken on the series scalling, but also puts Base Boo Saga Goku on the same speed level as, let's say, Super Boohan and Super Vegito, when we all know how massively faster they are when compared to Base Goku, the use of already accepted and well, already used multiplers only help us here
 
The excuse I've heard is "we don't want to bloat and inflate the stats" , but that makes no sense because we already use Kaioken and the SSJ multipliers ARE accepted. And don't get me started on all the verses that use multipliers to reach FTL+ and MFTL via multipliers even though they don't have feats on that level. Bleach, Slime, and of course Rakudai are great examples.
 
That argument kinda doesn't work because if they don't want to "inflate the results", then it's already too late, because a Relativistic calc ended up being FTL+, since I don't remember FTL feats or calcs on canon DBZ
 
Dante Demon Killah said:
That argument kinda doesn't work because if they don't want to "inflate the results", then it's already too late, because a Relativistic calc ended up being FTL+, since I don't remember FTL feats or calcs on canon DBZ
Click to expand...
True.

But iirc Freeza's Death Beam is considered Light Speed, which is why Post Zenkai Goku is FTL.
 
So I asked about something like this before with DDM himself in regards to AP

We don't really use official multipliers for SSJ forms; there have been time periods where transformations make sense, but that's pretty much inconsistent after that. Especially the 2nd, and 3rd ones but the 2nd one does have some details for first timers.

I mean, we do consider the first SSJ transformation instance to be an at least 40x multiplier both in power and speed given that Kaioken x20 was equal to 50% Frieza and SSJ Goku was both stronger and faster than 100% Frieza. But as I said, there's inconsistencies after that.

SSJ2 actually does appear to be more than 100x times stronger at least during Cell saga. As going from High 4-C to over 1 Kilofoe would be a jump like that. But we only considered it a multiplier for AP and not so much speed.

SSJ3 literally has no confirmed or shown multiplier other than a simple, "Stronger than SSJ2". And in Buu Saga in beyond, we kind of just don't really assume any multipliers for any Saiyan transformations as the actually AP multitudes tend to be random from time to time.
 
What inconsistencies? The Androids were way stronger than SSJ level characters and they had to get stronger to fight them. MSSJ lvl characters are already High 4-C+ so going from that to 4-B isn't all that crazy imo.
 
Hmm

I mean, we do consider the first SSJ transformation instance to be an at least 40x multiplier both in power and speed given that Kaioken x20 was equal to 50% Frieza and SSJ Goku was both stronger and faster than 100% Frieza. But as I said, there's inconsistencies after that.

That alone makes Boo Saga Goku with SSJ transformations (And those who scale) already Massively FTL+ actually, considering that this Base Goku scales to 45c, or I am missing something
 
It was mostly things Dark649 laid out for the base forms, and my blog was mostly focused on the linearity of the know A > B > C. And it doesn't quite explain characters who would be rougly in between such as Buu saga Piccolo. And Buu saga top tiers are overwhelmingly stronger than Super Perfect Cell, but to an unknown extent.

As for their base forms, they're pretty hard to judge pre Dragon Ball Super. I know the Anime versions have evidence of Buu Saga Goku having him grow to the point where even his base form is above the combined might of Frieza and Cell. But the Mange gives us very little details on how stronger their base forms are with only one example.

The only example I find was Base Gohan training with the Z sword. The Z Sword is a heavy sword that not even Shin considered himself capable of lifting it. Base Gohan has likely gotten amped due to a beating from Majin Buu and Zenkai via healing from Kibito. But he also continued to grow to the point where even his base form is above Shin. He also accidentally stuck Base Goku when he teleported to the Planet of the Kais, which Goku didn't even have any problems. So even with Z sword training, base Goku should be no weaker than Base Gohan. So by Buu saga, their base forms should be far above Frieza.

As for Saiyan transformations, there's too much unknown about them. Sometimes there only treated as slight boosts while they're treated as skyrockets in other scenarios. Logically, it does make no sense for kaioken to be inferior to Super Saiyan as a multiplier, though the latter also uses less energy. Comparing base forms to Super Saiyan transformations is a little like just comparing Goku to Vegeta. One day, it's just the SSJ that gets multitudes stronger while the base form hasn't changed much, and there are other days where base forms nearly catch up to SSJ forms in growth.

But, it was decided that "At least FTL+ wasn't too much of a reach, but Prom and Matt are extremely reluctant to get them boosted to anything higher than that. I do recall Dark649 had plans in the future to get them upgraded, but he's been inactive.
 
Even if the usage of the Super Saiyan multipliers is considered inaccurate, due to the inconsistency, I do firmly believe that the Kaioken multiplier can be used to upgrade thier statistics, as the boost is 100% canonical and consistent (Due to the whole KKx20 Goku vs Frieza compared to SSJ Goku vs 100% Frieza).

And yes, KKx20 Goku is equal or at least close to 50% Frieza. The one that was getting trashed by Frieza was KKx10.

Obviously whenever or not they get MFTL depends on how far they are on FTL+
 
Post Frieza saga, Super Saiyan transformations don't have a definitive multiplier and are just based on scaling at certain scenarios. But it is arbitrary for just the SSJ transformation to ever have a period of being below Kaioken x20 let alone x2.
 
"The only example I find was Base Gohan training with the Z sword. The Z Sword is a heavy sword that not even Shin considered himself capable of lifting it. Base Gohan has likely gotten amped due to a beating from Majin Buu and Zenkai via healing from Kibito. But he also continued to grow to the point where even his base form is above Shin. He also accidentally stuck Base Goku when he teleported to the Planet of the Kais, which Goku didn't even have any problems. So even with Z sword training, base Goku should be no weaker than Base Gohan. So by Buu saga, their base forms should be far above Frieza."

This explains why Base Saga Goku is FTL+ and 4-C, and well, personally, I think when you accept a multiplier, it needs some requirements to do so, like not generating inconsistent results, and using them for Dragon Ball actually ties everything up to Cell's 4-B feat, it fits in both AP and Speed for what the series consistently show us (with some inconsistences, but that's already excepcted). However said consistence stops at Top Tiers from Cell and Boo Saga, as all that progressive scalling stops at FTL+, kinda doesn't make any sense at all. MFTL to MFTL+ (depending on the multipler) Cell and Boo Saga Top Tiers fits with everything, as they are already stated and shown to be vastly more powerful than beings that are already pushing on the FTL+ tier, and we have multiple showings of blitzes, like when Ultimate Gohan said to Super Boo that he was "slow". Even assuming a 2X times gap between First Form Cell and SSJ Vegito in speed would already put this Vegito at Massively FTL

"As for Saiyan transformations, there's too much unknown about them. Sometimes there only treated as slight boosts while they're treated as skyrockets in other scenarios. Logically, it does make no sense for kaioken to be inferior to Super Saiyan as a multiplier, though the latter also uses less energy. Comparing base forms to Super Saiyan transformations is a little like just comparing Goku to Vegeta. One day, it's just the SSJ that gets multitudes stronger while the base form hasn't changed much, and there are other days where base forms nearly catch up to SSJ forms in growth."

I understand, but what are the biggest inconsistences ? Are they that bad that we can just throw away the already accepted and used multipliers for the lower tiers ? A feel examples would be pretty good. And as I said above, even without multipliers, keeping the absolute God Tiers at FTL+ seems downplay when beings massively, massively slower are already at that level, and we even have accepted and used multiplers for them that are just being ignored at this point of the tiers without a reason besides "let's not use them too much"

If that's the true problem, it's kinda already too late when it comes to Dragon Ball

"I do recall Dark649 had plans in the future to get them upgraded, but he's been inactive."

I really miss him, I wonder what happened
 
Omegas03 said:
Imagine having Super Vegito and Saiyan Arc Goku at the same speed rating
Click to expand...
And before the infinite speed showings showed up, Arceus was the same speed tier as Deoxys. The universal deity Majora is in the same speed tier as a 10 year old Link. Yusuke at EoS, an upper S class is only like, 4x his speed when he was B class. Even joking with strikethrough, don't make this seem like it's DB exclusive.
 
@Cal, the difference is that Dragon Ball is a lot more linear than both of those verses where higher Power level = being superior in every way power and speed. Not every High 6-A boss is more agile than various High 7-A bosses in Zelda. And even some Final Evolution Pokemon are less agile than various baby Pokemon. But never heard of a 4-B Dragon Ball character who's canonically less agile than a 5-B fodder.
 
Also Third Stage Trunks was only slower than High 4-C Perfect Cell, so it's not like he was slower than a fodder character.
 
You're ignoring my point. You're acting like DB having to have feats instead of hilarious upscaling is a travesty that makes us biased against the series. When everything else has to do it too, even for a paltry 3x.
 
Super Saiyan God Julian said:
Also Third Stage Trunks was only slower than High 4-C Perfect Cell, so it's not like he was slower than a fodder character.
Click to expand...
Aight, here's an example involving fodder then with another verse. Every non final boss in Kirby is in the same speed tier as a Waddle Dee. The Kirby equivalent to a Goomba.
 
The real cal howard said:
You're ignoring my point. You're acting like DB having to have feats instead of hilarious upscaling is a travesty that makes us biased against the series. When everything else has to do it too, even for a paltry 3x.
Click to expand...
Because applying multipliers and scaling isn't that weird of a concept. Bleach, Rakudai, and many others are doing it right now and no one has an issue with it.
 
No, everyone has an issue with Rakudai multipliers. Look at every Rakudai thread where someone other than Earl or Ion responds (no offense, you two). Hell, I made a downgrade for that long before I ever responded to this. And Bleach's speed multiplier gets them to what, Rel+ to FTL? Not even 2x. Not to mention I'm unaware of it.
 
If the new Bleach revision goes through, it will upgrade the god tiers to Massively FTL (close to Massively FTL+) from a near baseline FTL feat via multipliers.
 
Yeah imma go to that real quick then. I'm super not okay with that. I'm many things but a hypocrite isn't one.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Because applying multipliers and scaling isn't that weird of a concept. Bleach, Rakudai, and many others are doing it right now and no one has an issue with it.
Click to expand...
>Bleach and Rakudai

>No issues

You clearly missed the 2 very big Bleach revision threads where Damage, Matt and a few others had humongous issues with that. And Rakudai was thrown around for a bit there too when mixed in.
 
I do think that Massively FTL+ might be a stretch via multipliers, but Massively FTL is at least plausible if we take KK into consideration. Then a higher with the rest of the transformations.
 
>Bleach and Rakudai

>No issues

You clearly missed the 2 very big Bleach revision threads where Damage, Matt and a few others had humongous issues with that. And Rakudai was thrown around for a bit there too when mixed in.

As far as I can see on the current Bleach revision thread, Damage has issues with some characters scaling to the feats and multipliers, but not with the values themselves.
 
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