• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Dragon Ball Z Speed Downgrades

AwkguyDB


Why are guides not allowed to used if there's nothing wrong in including them btw they accepted super and much more contradictive things into canon so really there should no issue in adding the guides plus it's meant to be used as a supplementary source regardless of they think


since the wiki decided to nonsensically ban the guidebooks i see no reason why super saiyan multipliers should be allowed because with the standard had there is no way verify the amount of power that the forms give nonetheless the only thing that would be affected by said revision is kaioken because that's the only one allowed to have stats on here apparently.


I'm guessing they allowed guidebooks for the toeiverse because nobody cares for that verse and it's just a fusion of everything that's not deemed canon by the wiki so since guidebooks aren't relevant it's probably included in the reject db verse page.

Code:
 
Missy0124 said:
AwkguyDB
Why are guides not allowed to used if there's nothing wrong in including them btw they accepted super and much more contradictive things into canon so really there should no issue in adding the guides plus it's meant to be used as a supplementary source regardless of they think


since the wiki decided to nonsensically ban the guidebooks i see no reason why super saiyan multipliers should be allowed because with the standard had there is no way verify the amount of power that the forms give nonetheless the only thing that would be affected by said revision is kaioken because that's the only one allowed to have stats on here apparently.


I'm guessing they allowed guidebooks for the toeiverse because nobody cares for that verse and it's just a fusion of everything that's not deemed canon by the wiki so since guidebooks aren't relevant it's probably included in the reject db verse page.

Code:
Click to expand...
I don't make the rules, wish I did but I don't. If we can further prove or support our cases via what is given via the Manga, then we don't necessarily need the guides. Like I said I don't think the guides are bad or wrong, 90% of the guide info presented can still fit into canon I believe, but my word means jack. But the manga is irrefutable evidence.
 
SSJ being 50x Base is supported by the Manga and even by Toriyama himself.
NWQYORi
So honestly people can try to lowball to 40x all they want but on top the scaling logic theres WoG to support it.
 
Didn't he said that...50x and an exaggeration and it was more like 10X ?

Regardless, this thread isn't to decide if SSJ forms are 10, 20, 50 or 6119193729 times stronger than base, the objective here is to show that Low Balling at max, it still boosts them to MFTL, I ask to keep the focus on this

And well, apparently our staff here seems to agree with this
 
Toriyama isn't the most credible person to ask even if he's the main creator. Because he often forgets things and admits that he himself is not Word of God.
 
Dante Demon Killah said:
Didn't he said that...50x and an exaggeration and it was more like 10X ?
Regardless, this thread isn't to decide if SSJ forms are 10, 20, 50 or 6119193729 times stronger than base, the objective here is to show that Low Balling at max, it still boosts them to MFTL, I ask to keep the focus on this

And well, apparently our staff here seems to agree with this
Click to expand...
Thats fine. I was just showing that a SSJ multiplier being 50x is really not contradicting. But we can't just treat Transformations or training as if they were static.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Toriyama isn't the most credible person to ask even if he's the main creator. Because he often forgets things and admits that he himself is not Word of God.
Click to expand...
So him discrediting the 50x multiplier is worthless right uWu?
 
You can't discredit the 50x DDM because Toriyama is accepting it to be 50x, while originally drawing it he thought it was 10x up. The 50x makes sense. Goku was much stronger than 100% Frieza who inturn was greater than or equal to Kaiokenx20 Goku at 50% of his power.
 
DarkDragonMedeus

you will take super as canon because of some vague notes but you won't accept a 50x multiplier when toriyama himself states that as true btw word of god makes your arguments irrelevant unless you think your word has more value than the creators.


this is why nobody takes vsbw seriously btw because of the pick and choose nonsense coupled with it's nonsensical scaling.


again the facts state it's a 50 percent increase so your wrong end of story
 
AwkguyDB


As you said our opinions mean jack btw if the mods think it's wrong then this revision thread is just wasting my time because the executives already made their choice on this matter you can stay and waste your time debating but it will happen the same way it did with your kai thread because executive choice decided that this revision is wrong.

he's arguing against WoG but his desired outcome will still come true because we're members and he's a staff member which is unfair but it's not my wiki now is it

mind if i ask for help on some profiles later on.
 
Toriyama has also in other interviews said SSJ was only 10x, and not every single use of the SSJ transformation is consistent. This has been discussed countless times using the same reasons and methods.

@Missy1024 that is completely false. They're not based on "Vague notes" Super is canon because Toriyama officially approves it as canon. This is a simple detail, if he says something is primary canon, then it's primary canon. Guidebooks are only secondary canon at best, where as Manga and Super are both primary canon.

And the reason is because Toriyama and many authors in general are not very good at math and/or aren't scientists like we are. Also, you have been warned countless times about constantly spreading negativity and spamming nonsensical stuff.

@Awkward, I know the 50x multiplier was fine during the initial boost as we know it's more than 40x making the 50x uncontroversial. It's just after that, SSJ transformations become super inconsistent which Antvasima, Kavpeny, Azathoth, and many others have often said that cannot be stressed enough in the past.
 
Yeah honestly I thought the problem with multipliers was that Gohan being able to stomp Cell shouldn't be "just" a 2x multiplier, as in 2x is too small of an AP gap to stomp.
 
Another thing is that there's plenty of debates that 50x is often referring to a character's, PL number, which is extremely nonlinear as opposed to each and every attack simple having 50x more energy. Kaioken explicitly states it's a multiplier for both speed and power linearly, but SSJ transformations tend to be more refering to PLs.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Another thing is that there's plenty of debates that 50x is often referring to a character's, PL number, which is extremely nonlinear as opposed to each and every attack simple having 50x more energy. Kaioken explicitly states it's a multiplier for both speed and power linearly, but SSJ transformations tend to be more refering to PLs.
Click to expand...
Kaioken multipliers linearly applied to PL as well.

Besides the 50x can easily be derived from scaling above KKx20, so the Guides are just support imo.
 
I know, but that's still just a visual thing. And we didn't accept them because of PL ratings, we accepted them based on statements explicitly stated in the canon manga.
 
DarkDragonMedeus


I've debated canon and won every time so let's not act like we've never had this debate before btw the best evidence i've seen for super being canon is the tokyo treehouse interview which really only states super as a sequel to dbz.

the anime and manga are based off notes given by toriyama so how they not based off vague notes and toriyama never mentioned super as canon best i've seen was the tokyo treehouse interview which no way states super as canon.

guidebooks are made with the intent of explaining certain details within the dragon ball story so it's a secondary material even in the context of dbz btw never suggested that the guidebooks becomes a primary canon so don't put words in my mouth.

toriyama also stated in other interviews that SSJ1 was a 10x boost so where's your source,link or proof of him saying such a thing.

again if you want to think super is canon go ahead just don't act your personal stance somehow equates to being factually correct because it's blatantly not.

I'm spamming how exactly i've made two comments responding to you and awkward so it's more or less that i'm bantering with two people. if i really wanted to spam something i would just continuously post all the anime only characters in super just to prove a point but since i'm above doing something that childish i would bother with such a endeavor
 
You do know that animated characters migrating into the source material doesn't make a series canon, right? Otherwise, Batman the animated series is canon to...****, how many DC properties due to Harley Quinn?
 
DDM its not that hard

KK is not a form but a Stat Amp that boost the Base stats by 20xs

SSJ is a transformation that boost the stats by 50xs and essentially becomes the new base for the time being.

Goku can either hold back his SSJ powers to a fraction or boost it up to his max 50xs, Goku has never shown to go beyond SSJ in SSJ unless reactive power came to play or Goku ascended into another form.
 
Ursa and Non first appeared in Superman II the movie, but they became canon DC characters in 2007, that doesn't make that 2007 comic book non-canon nor does it make the movie canon. Also, Missy has constancy made more than 30 threads trying to beg us to say "Dragon Ball Super is non-canon because Gregory appears."
 
...why would Goku hold back to a fraction in Super Saiyan when he can just use his base form instead?
 
@Cal, in Dragon Ball Super, Goku's got style. Being able to go SSB despite the power he actually uses being less than what his base form is. He's good at looking like he's going all out when he's actually holding back massively.
 
But Blue looks worse than base. He'd have more style beating in base where he looks tough as heck.
 
Says the person who tried to upgrade Kirby to Low 1-C via scaling from Master Hand who is that high via perceiving 2-B beings as toys.
 
SSJ forms like 2 and 3 should just be lowballed to 2x on top of each to keep it consistently stronger than the other form. On special cases (Vegeta w/ Enraged SSJ2, Chou Trunks w/ His SSJ2 in the Manga, Super Broly w/SSJ, Caulifa w/SSJ 1&2, Kale, Kefla w/SSJ 1&2, Black) have characters ascended to new levels while using the general SSJ forms. But Goku for the most part has remained the same with his forms outside of maybe MSSJ.
 
The real cal howard

The source material is the manga btw your acting like anime only characters is my only reasoning which it's not but you used a false equivalency because super added in non canon characters while dc adapted the character of harley to fit the source material which means they altered her to become part of canon same way they altered broly so he made more sense again super does not adapt characters in they literally just showcase ones from the anime with no changes whatsoever broly however is the exception but to be fair his character originated from the movies not the anime.

there's also the fact scenes and plotlines are made to matchup with the anime's events eg future trunks unlocking super saiyan via gohan's death instead of training like in the manga.

DarkDragonMedeus


I had sources in my threads so let's not act like i've just posted a opinion piece and saying gregory showed up is my only argument is just blatantly wrong because i've provided other reasoning like how it contradicts the manga as a example
 
I do agree with using Kaio-ken multipliers because they're stated multiple times in verse to work that way. I would still prefer using 40x for SSJ1 tho, but other than that, I'm perfectly fine with this.
 
SSJ2 multiplier is 2x at least because it's been agreed that 50% SSJ2 Gohan > MSSJ Gohan.
 
since were operating under wiki logic i'm for having kaioken multipliers because their official and against having super saiyan multipliers unless we use the official numbers which i'm doubting we will because the executives declared otherwise
 
Wait a minute, if on VSBW, most think SSJ is a 40-50x Multiplier and that SSJ2 is >/= Multiplier, so we don't we just use the official ones?
 
Ehnkr2beboh

Technically they don't count the guidebooks or WoG because the executives disagree with 50x multiplier then again policies here always are accepted or denied based off what the mods think regardless of validity or factual accuracy then again that's the exact reason why solar system broly exists
 
Missy0124 said:
Ehnkr2beboh
Technically they don't count the guidebooks or WoG because they disagree with 50x rating
Click to expand...
Wait what? The 50x is arguably the only one backed up by the series, where Goku > FF Frieza > 50% Frieza > KKx20.
 
Ehnkr2beboh said:
Wait a minute, if on VSBW, most think SSJ is a 40-50x Multiplier and that SSJ2 is >/= Multiplier, so we don't we just use the official ones?
Click to expand...
LOL

DarkDragonMedeus

SSJ2 Teen Gohan is more than 100x stronger than SSJ Teen Gohan.

Just Saiyan.

@DDM

This is why I am confused. If the multipliers should be higher than why not just use the confirmed ones that are extremely lower?
 
SSJ2 Gohan is an even match with Super Perfect Cell who is 1.053 Kilofoe, where as SSJ1 is simply High 4-C and thus not even 22.4 Foe. Oh wait, not more than 100, but somewhere between 50 and 100 times stronger.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

DBZ Speed update
Replies
6
Views
591
Ghostimuscrime
Ghostimuscrime
Mickey1940
DBS Speed questions
Replies
9
Views
1K
Omegabronic
Omegabronic
GarrixianXD
  • Locked
DBH Goku vs. Acheron
Replies
26
Views
3K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Tom4t0GG789
DRAGON BALL SPEED UPGRADE :O
2
Replies
66
Views
6K
Tom4t0GG789
Tom4t0GG789
Tom4t0GG789
THE LEGEND OF MANGA (DBZ)
Replies
2
Views
957
Nullflowerblush
Nullflowerblush
Back
Top