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Dragon Ball Z Speed Downgrades

The real cal howard said:
That doesn't sound like Damage.
Click to expand...
True, but he hasn't said that the "MFTL" via multipliers isn't happening. Though to be fair he did say he's skeptical about them, obviously.

So far though he's arguing scaling, so the stat they're scaling to are obviously accepted.
 
I really don't want to derail the thread with Bleach, but a lot of them don't have consistent multipliers other than Ichigo and Kenpachi. Plus, the FTL calc I recall having a lot of problems that the feat often got re-skinned until it was later approved.

But anyway, Ultra Super Saiyan was only a specific case that was never used again; SSJ2 on the other hand is both a lot stronger and faster than SSJ1. And there was only proof if him being slower than SSJ1, not base forms. Vegeta even had a similar form but didn't lose his speed due to not going to far with the muscle amps. And Cell could have also transformed like that, but chose not too due to focusing on speed.
 
Not going to get into the middle of that crossfire, but were the multipliers ever given any staff approval? That would help differentiate Bleach's case from other verses given the issues Multipliers cause here as a whole.
 
Super Saiyan God Julian said:
I do think that Massively FTL+ might be a stretch via multipliers, but Massively FTL is at least plausible if we take KK into consideration. Then a higher with the rest of the transformations.
Click to expand...
Using up to KKX20 multipler, indeed we get MFTL, around 900c actually

But as I said, 2x is already enough to put Cell Saga Top Tiers and Boo Saga Top Tiers at MFTL
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Not going to get into the middle of that crossfire, but were the multipliers ever given any staff approval? That would help differentiate Bleach's case from other verses given the issues Multipliers cause here as a whole.
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They're accepted for Vs threads but not for the profiles, which is strange XD. SSJ1 is accepted as at least 40x, most likely 50x. SSJ2 is accepted as 2x. SSJ3 isn't accepted at anything, but usually lowballed to 2x.
 
Only reason the FTL Bleach got accepted in the first place is because I got drunk off my ass and said yes to it so I could make friends.
 
@DDM

Gonna correct you right here.

FTL calc isn't some reskinned calc made half a dozen times. One of the attacks was accepted at light speed.

Also the multipliers are consistent or we wouldn't be on part 3. Only very few characters get a form of stat amp, and some have multiple.
 
Super saiyan 1 is 50x base form according to various guidebooks and toriyama stated this himself at one point.

unsure about the other super saiyan transformations though know 1 though 3 have confirmed multipliers unsure if this matters any but ozzaru is a 10x boost.


having multipliers seems fine but you have to take into account what form that feat was taken in and that whole ordeal seems to be more trouble than it's worth especially considering most forms in dragon don't even have multipliers
 
@Kukui, they weren't ever applied, but a few calc group members accepted a certain Speed of Light attack. Though, that same attack has had numerous discussions regarding whether it was or wasn't considered light. I definitely recall an argument between Matt and LordGinSama back in 2018, and there was a Calc group discussion thread. In which TataHakai and Soldier Blue both agreed that it wasn't light speed. The FTL calc was accepted now by the looks of it from a mathematical stand point at least, but TataHakai did say logic was important. But there was a thread on it that I didn't want to get involved.

Anyway, SSJ2 wasn't accepted as 2x. And in fact, during the first instance, it was actually more than 100x multiplier AP wise, not quite for speed. But they are inconsistent, where as Kaioken are both extremely specific and all over the place. And often used to turn a stomp around based on numbers. Goku Vs Frieza was the only time it didn't quite turn a stomp around in Z, but that's because Frieza was toying with Goku the whole time till he used Kaioken x20. And it was agreed not to use the guidebooks do to how inconsistent and nonlinear the numbers are.
 
Well, we never see him use Kaioken again between Frieza Saga and Universe 6 saga, but comparing the SSJ transformations to Kaioken x20 might make sense, key word being might. But that's also been discussed to death and I'd rather save other staff members some headaches.
 
DarkDragonMedeus

The exact multiplier for the super saiyan forms are rather clear what are you getting at exactly here and how can kaioken be all over the place goku directly states how much power he's using while in that form nearly everytime btw kaioken did not cause a stomp everytime did you watch the vegeta vs goku fight or the pikkon vs goku fight because in both of those fights he loses while in that form.
 
Kaioken multipliers are accepted because it's explicitly stated in the main canon to multiplier strength, power, speed, and endurance by the explicit number. Super Saiyan transformations on the other hand are not, and have countless inconsistencies through the franchise. Most notably is being able to go from 3-A to Low 2-C just from going from Base form to SSJ in Broly's case or from SSJ1 to SSJ2 in Kefla's case.
 
So the key is considering SS1 at the very least equal to Kaioken

While I understand that Super Saiyan Transformations are inconsistent to an degree, lore wise they are superior to the Kaioken X20, well at least superior to Kaioken X2 right ? Because this level alone of the Kaioken is already enough to put them at MFTL. I understand that KKX20 might be the main focus, but for the upgrade in speed that I have in mind, X2 already works

That shows how keeping them locked at FTL+ kinda doesn't have that much sense
 
Yes, I know that. And neither is Kefla, and even Goku and Vegeta's SSB forms are also things that can't really have a strait multiplier. Was SSG to SSB used to still be 3-A either way along side base forms, but SSB is now Low 2-C and thus infinitely superior to SSG.
 
Super Saiyan God Julian said:
If we take everything that happened in the Frieza Saga at face value then SSJ >>> KKx20 because it was the only thing that could stand up to base Frieza.
But I believe that only using KK multipliers is the best answer for now.
Click to expand...
Agree
 
Super Saiyan God Julian said:
If we take everything that happened in the Frieza Saga at face value then SSJ >>> KKx20 because it was the only thing that could stand up to base Frieza.
But I believe that only using KK multipliers is the best answer for now.
Click to expand...
Seems like the best compromise. I agree.
 
DarkDragonMedeus

It's rather clear from both feats and scaling that super saiyan forms increase speed,strength and other such attributes because we can see goku failing to even pressure a suppressed freezer to pressuring and actually beating him plus the official multipliers are stated in the guidebooks multiple times so yes there is a explicit number.

Broly is noncanon to the manga and it's anime only so are you really shocked at the issues with scaling nonetheless in original manga and anime series the scaling for such forms were much more consistent.
 
Mr.Cinos15 said:
@The real cal howard

And to put the multiplier ice cream on the cake, https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Katekyo_Hitman_Reborn#Calculations

Katekyo Hitman Reborn is another series that abuses multipliers. The highest accepted calc is High 7-A, but via sheer multipliers, one of the characters was able to reach High 6-B. So I'm pretty sure that DB is actually not the worst offender when it comes to multipliers.
Click to expand...
...

Excuse me while I go downgrade the mafia.
 
@Missy, again. Stop getting canonicities mixed up; AKM Sama, me, and many other staff members have literally told you countless times. The Super Broly Movie is a canon sequal to Dragon Ball Super Anime which is a canon sequal to the Manga. And it doesn't matter how many times the guidebooks state them, the main work never says so otherwise, and has showings that are inconsistent.
 
Dante Demon Killah

any super saiyan form can be equal to kaioken depending how much ki goku puts into the kaioken move so if goku puts in 100x he's around a super saiyan 2 if he puts in 150x then he's around a super saiyan 3 nonetheless kaioken can be comparable to super saiyan forms but doing so would most likely kill the user nonetheless point being multipliers for the super saiyan forms exist using this whole scaling tree just seems pointlessly contrived
 
DarkDragonMedeus


I'm not getting canons mixed up and canaanites is not a word.

broly is canon to super which by extension ties into the dbz anime nonetheless canon as a topic is nether here nor there. the guidebooks are supplementary material their not meant to canon their just meant to inform the audience of certain details like multipliers in this case.


the main work is the manga anything other than that is ether non canon or supplementary material btw the main work showcases bardock standing off against freezer like in the special yet we take the movie's interpretation over the manga so lecturing one about the main source despite you using additional material sounds rather foolish.

fact of the matter is super saiyan forms have a explicit multiplier if you disagree with that number given go complain to toei/toriyama not me because that's what the facts if you choose to disregard those facts than that's your fault not anyone else's
 
So I am just gonna link manga scans that talk about Kaioken and Super Saiyan without guides and we can make a judgment from there. Obviously we know what the scaling looks like but what we need to see is if there is consistency and if there isn't what could be potentially the undelying factors.

Kaioke

Goku's speed multiplies

Goku explaining the Kaioke

Goku's power exponentially increasing against Ginyu

Goku used the Kaioken 20x however it still wasn't enough do in Freeza at 50%

overall:

Kaioken multipler can boost Goku's attack and speed up to 20x times

Super Saiyan

Goku's SSJ power exceeds Kaioken 20x

Goku as a SSJ exceeds Freeza's 50% by a great margin.

Goku as a SSJ was greater than Freeza's 70%

Goku's SSJ was too much for Freeza's 100%

Goku's SSJ > Freeza's 100% > Freeza's 70% > Freeza's 50% >= Kaioken 20x Goku

Based on a the Namek Arc Super Saiyan should be at least 50x, which makes the most sense since Goku held the advantage over Freeza's 100%, unless you want to argue Freeza's mentioning of Krillin brought more power out of Goku.

Is it consistent?

According to Gohan, SSJ Trunks is just as strong as SSJ Goku was against Freeza

Trunks easily dismembered Mecha Freeza and Mecha Freeza is stronger than 100% Namek Freeza

Meaning Namek SSJ Goku = SSJ Trunks > Mecha Freeza >= 100% Namek Freeza > Namek 'Freeza's 70% > Namek Freeza's 50% >= Kaioken 20x Goku

So SSJ as a multiplier should be 50x over Base

Keep in mind thats both power and speed as speed is essential to tagging your opponent with all that raw power.
 
I'm gonna add to this an analysis on SSJ2 and 3 but we can all agree to forget the god forms and ultra instinct sign/mastered.
 
It's a spell check error glitch. It was supposed to say canonicities. And Canaanites would be people from Canaan actually but that's completely off topic.

Dragon Ball Super both Anime and Manga versions are sequals to the original Manga. AKM Sama told you multiple times about the Plot Outline, and you have been told countless times by multiple staff members to permanently drop the topic due to how constant in persistent you have been on trying to constantly spam them and your borderline refusal to listen to reason.
 
AwkguyDB

What's so bad about using guides in this case they line up with the context presented and their litterally made to be supplementary material btw there are some contradicting points like the tien being a alien but most of the information given is consistent with the source material
 
I think giving the current scalling and more...blalant scans of SSJ not only overpowering 100% Freeza but also being faster already give us evidence to use SSJ as at least equal to KKX20 for scalling and number purposes only, as Goku can perform better feats while using said SSJ form, I know lore wise SSJ should be much superior and stuff, but the focus here isn't actually taking the exact number for SSJ, only that even low balling at max, it still boosts them to MFTL

If Super Saiyan is two times stronger and faster than a simple Kaioken, it would already boost Goku to MFTL
 
I agree 100%, I always thought FTL+ seemed a bit low. Hell, we have Relativistic Raditz, we know for a fact Goku got 100 times stronger in the Namek Saga because he could fight like normal in 100x Gravity, and then add the Zenkais and training, it should 100% be MFTL.
 
Missy0124 said:
AwkguyDB
What's so bad about using guides in this case they line up with the context presented and their litterally made to be supplementary material btw there are some contradicting points like the tien being a alien but most of the information given is consistent with the source material
Click to expand...
Nothing but on a site where guides are pick and choose I am just going off of irrefutable source. Of course the guides would back me up here but if guides were accepted..well.....we wouldn't be talking about multipliers XD theres a guide for that, like 2 actually XD.
 
Btw, I don't necessarily mind MFTL end of Z. It's not completely unfeasible. What I do have a problem with is that if I allow this, you're gonna take this inch to make a mile and wind up getting billions of times FTL off of a relativistic feat due to multipliers and scaling.
 
The real cal howard said:
Btw, I don't necessarily mind MFTL end of Z. It's not completely unfeasible. What I do have a problem with is that if I allow this, you're gonna take this inch to make a mile and wind up getting billions of times FTL off of a relativistic feat due to multipliers and scaling.
Click to expand...
That's literally impossible lol when the multipliers are 400x AT MOST XD, and frankly that's not a good enough reason to reject completely reasonable arguments. If someone pushes it later, just reject the unreasonable shit and call it a day.
 
DarkDragonMedeus


I Know about the vague outlines in fact that was one of my arguments nonetheless fact of the matter is super features plot lines and elements that exclusively only were shown in the anime.

you can add anime only products to the canon material if you guys like afterall it's your wiki not mine and i've only brought up canon in relation to broly because it showcases why having anime only stuff creates issues with scaling nonetheless my take in regards to this matter is that the multipliers should be added saying as that's factual correct but the issues that entails in terms of scaling would be rather prevalent
 
Super Saiyan God Julian said:
I do think that Massively FTL+ might be a stretch via multipliers, but Massively FTL is at least plausible if we take KK into consideration. Then a higher with the rest of the transformations.
Click to expand...
I think a feasible solution could be "Massively FTL with kaioken and Super Saiyan Transformations"
 
So I guess Massively FTL does make sense after all

Btw, I don't necessarily mind MFTL end of Z. It's not completely unfeasible. What I do have a problem with is that if I allow this, you're gonna take this inch to make a mile and wind up getting billions of times FTL off of a relativistic feat due to multipliers and scaling.

I understand, but being honest, the fact that one acceptable, low balled stuff can be accepted for a more reliable rating should come first, of course there will be threads wanking DB into the high heavens, always existed, will always exist. If we avoid upgrades thinking on what people can do next, many verses on this wiki will stop I'm looking at you Devil May Cry
 
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