Sakura vs Sabrina

Sakura Sakurakouji

vs

Sabrina Spellma

Speed equalized

Let's go.

Distance is too large for life drain. (Which would not work anyway)

So Sabrina just turns her into a pineapple before nothingness ever becomes an issue.

Since Sabrina can straight up teleport herself to other galaxies and realms the nothingness also never becomes a relevant threat to her. She can easily dodge it.


Speed unequal she would also blitz hard with her optional equipment...

Why would turning her to a pineapple work?

And optional equipment is just movement speed not combat speed. It's like saying a dude blitzes if you give him a car. Or I have no idea what the vacuum cleaner is so tell me if I'm wrong xD

Because a pineapple is a dead mindless object and Sabrina is too powerful for Sakura's powernull to do anything against it.

Nope, it isn't movement speed. She did replace Santa Claus, which requires complicated flight paths and breaks at every house done in an extremly fast manner. So she does have the capability to maneuver at the vacuums flight speed.

Ok, Yukihina is also dead. And Sakurako's puppets are also dead mindless objects so i don't get your point. And "too powerful for Sakura's power null" where does that come from?

Ok but its still a form of veichle no? But i guess imma equalize speed then just in case.

From having 4-C magic? Sakura can't null 4-C stuff.

I don't get your point. As pineapple she is definitely incapacitated. She can't activate any technique anymore, due to having no mind that could do so. She can't move, she can't think, she can't really live, she can't do anything. What do you think Sakura is going to do as pineapple, except maybe being devoured by the nothingness?

AP is not exactly the point. When did we start giving hax AP limits. It's not hax then.

She won't be turned into a pineaple was my point.

Dude, power null has an AP limit. There were threads about that before. And Sabrina's transmutation has 4-C magic power behind it. You will need to negate power on this scale to prevent it from happening.

Power Null has limits, sure, but not AP ones. It has NLF ones. Example if the best mind hax you've ever negged is like 3 ppl, then you won't be walking around in Star Wars unaffected which has mind hax in the trillions. It was never about AP, and i hope it never becomes. Corrolating hax to AP and we will end up Dragon Ball logic with more muscles resisting time hax.

And even then, transmutation itself lacks AP, so it having 4-C magic doesn't mean it is 4-C in potency. It's like saying, if we have a 5-B fire going on burning a planet then a random ember coming out of it is 5-B as well.

You're wrong. See this and this thread for instance. Heck, you literally made a thread about this were you were clearly told that power null doesn't per default ignore AP.

The page even states "It is to be assumed that any negation power has its limitations based on the strongest thing it has nullified"


Of course that's only the default assumption. Ultimately things have to be evaluated by mechanism. The mechanism behind Sakura's power null is that she absorbs the power behind the power users attack. Hence she actually needs to produce a negation power higher than the power users output to nullify it. Too high of an output and she won't be able to do so anymore.

Thinking in terms of mana a transmutation spell can have different amounts in it.


In any case, Sabrina also has her automatic time stop. So I don't see Sakura having a win con anyway.

Power null does indeed have AP limits (Up to what it's been shown to null), unless there's a mechanic which lets it overcome AP.

Like powernull via death manipulation. (Killing abilities and attacks)

Yes, it is limited by potency because as i said "if you've only shown mind hax negation to 3 people, you don't nullify a trillion people mind hax level it would be NLF". Not "i throw a stick while having a 4-A energy pool so you cannot negate it". It was never about AP, it was about the potency of the hax itself. AP is not hax potency, its destructive capability, it doesn't transfer to hax which by definition ignore durability (stats in most cases). Though this is a case by case basis.

Same as above, it's about the potency of the hax and the mechanics. So that you don't negate conceptual manipulation and law manip when you've best shown to negate fire manip.


Sakura does it through absorbing life actually, but that is only for the absorption, remember there is the "Divine Shield" and "Death God", she is not killing people when they attack her, there is this.


Automatic time stop? Why will that work? Aoba has time hax, it didn't lead to her yeeting the rare kinds.

Also, bringing up my threads weren't really a good example.

Because my thread specifically refers to comparing different types of powernull with different mechanics. Not standard stuff.

And like 4-5 people agreed before you, Ricsi, and Ant shut it down.

Wish I had more help on that thread, because obviously there are people who agree with me, they just didn't show up.

YungManzi said:

Also, bringing up my threads weren't really a good example.

Click to expand...

Your thread????

The other ones he mentioned were both my threads.

Firephoenixearl said:

Yes, it is limited by potency because as i said "if you've only shown mind hax negation to 3 people, you don't nullify a trillion people mind hax level it would be NLF". Not "i throw a stick while having a 4-A energy pool so you cannot negate it". It was never about AP, it was about the potency of the hax itself. AP is not hax potency, its destructive capability, it doesn't transfer to hax which by definition ignore durability (stats in most cases). Though this is a case by case basis.
Same as above, it's about the potency of the hax and the mechanics. So that you don't negate conceptual manipulation and law manip when you've best shown to negate fire manip.

Click to expand...

There are multiple factors. For soul manipulation soul count is a factor, so is power. That's why a 8-C being won't be able to powernull a Tier 1 space cut, just because it negated space cuts before.

As said, mechanism matters, but the default assumptions isn't that you can powernull things above the power level you have shown, because power null can very much interact with the power behind it.

Requirement for anything to be independent of power is the there is a known mechanism based on which one can extrapolate it to be. In this case that doesn't exist.


Sakura does it through absorbing life actually, but that is only for the absorption, remember there is the "Divine Shield" and "Death God", she is not killing people when they attack her, there is this.

Life is the source of the special powers, so it is the same thing. The divine shield is based on the same fundamental principle.

The scan is a NLF and already contradicted by the manga itself, seeing as rare kinds can be burned by the demon flames and stuff.

Automatic time stop? Why will that work? Aoba has time hax, it didn't lead to her yeeting the rare kinds.

Time-change in Object is a different type of time manip and of way lesser potency than a, at least planet wide, time stop.

That's a false equivalency and you know it. There are no higher D beings here.

Fair on that. Mechanics matter.

Life is the source of the special powers, so it is the same thing. The divine shield is based on the same fundamental principle.

Yes, having a 4-A special power source doesn't mean you have 4-A life. Yo got it backwards.

And considering, she "again" does not kill people who attack her i'll say not. If anything the divine shield is based off of "nothingness", basically the combination of a rare kind and power user. So if special powers encounter a rare kind it is just turned to nothing. Seems much more sensible than life absorption which is stated to be different from the divine shield (this is literally the next page).

The scan is a NLF and already contradicted by the manga itself, seeing as rare kinds can be burned by the demon flames and stuff.

That really ain't the case. You're taking the most unique ability in the series which is specifically capable of affecting the rare kinds (The hellfire which as stated many times literally does not exist in the real world) and has stupid feats like literally burning the nothingness that rare kinds produce as a way to say that. If we go by that logic than anything that would lead more energy than an average flame at 1500 degrees would be completely outside of their ability to nullify things. Which means literally no power in the series would be affected by such things. Let alone stuff like Code:Seeker's space cutting or other stuff like that.

Time-change in Object is a different type of time manip and of way lesser potency than a, at least planet wide, time stop.

As we've discussed before both of these powers are 1 dimensional powers. Unless we're bringing erasure of time on a universal scale which is actual potency idk how you can compare time reversal to time stop. Besides, a thing to consider about Sakura's capabilities, she managed to seal time itself, the dimension, so her capabilities aren't weak (and btw that is not flowery language, it is actually shown later on that time was actually sealed).

Firephoenixearl said:

That's a false equivalency and you know it. There are no higher D beings here.

Click to expand...

Not really, as long as the reason is the same.

Yes, having a 4-A special power source doesn't mean you have 4-A life. Yo got it backwards.
And considering, she "again" does not kill people who attack her i'll say not. If anything the divine shield is based off of "nothingness", basically the combination of a rare kind and power user. So if special powers encounter a rare kind it is just turned to nothing. Seems much more sensible than life absorption which is stated to be different from the divine shield (this is literally the next page).

It's two different applications of the same thing. Remember what rare kind blood does all on its ow? It absorbs life energy and with that special powers. That's how the "divine shield" works. The rare kinds body are imbued with the life absorption power, which is lso the popwer absorption power, since that's what special powers are powered by. Life force = code breaker mana.

Also, if you want to start claiming that Sabrina's magic doesn't draw from what in Code:breaker is considered life power, then I guess you won't be able to equalize special powers and magic here. In which case literally none of Sakura's power null works to any degree. Of course Sabrina also has more life than any normal mortal to start with.

That really ain't the case. You're taking the most unique ability in the series which is specifically capable of affecting the rare kinds (The hellfire which as stated many times literally does not exist in the real world) and has stupid feats like literally burning the nothingness that rare kinds produce as a way to say that. If we go by that logic than anything that would lead more energy than an average flame at 1500 degrees would be completely outside of their ability to nullify things. Which means literally no power in the series would be affected by such things. Let alone stuff like Code:Seeker's space cutting or other stuff like that.
In any case "Can negate any powers without limit" is still a NLF, since nothing in Code Breaker even remotely approaches tier 4. And an exception existing still means that exceptions exist, even if it is an exception.

Also I wish to point out that Sabrina has powernull resistance. Spells aren't easily nullified even by other tier 4 witches.

As we've discussed before both of these powers are 1 dimensional powers. Unless we're bringing erasure of time on a universal scale which is actual potency idk how you can compare time reversal to time stop. Besides, a thing to consider about Sakura's capabilities, she managed to seal time itself, the dimension, so her capabilities aren't weak (and btw that is not flowery language, it is actually shown later on that time was actually sealed).

If you can't compare time reversal and time stop, then Sakura has literally no feat of resisting time stop. Doesn't exactly support your argument.

And the seal she did with Pandora's Box was a different power than her "divine shield". Not to mention that its was still on a smaller scale.


Since I want to finish this debate some time, I'm curious how exactly you think Sakura could actually win this. As I see it if worst case happens Sabrina teleports herself unto Mars and then from there hits Sakura with a lightning bolt above her negation tier.

It is not the same reasoning. We by default give higher D being resistance to everything lower D until feats of doing so are found. Its one of our rules. A thing that does not exist within the same dimension. Similar to how we can say a 8-C soul haxed a High 3-A, but not that it will soul hax a Low 1-C.

Yes, that is the blood of rare kinds. Basically their blood absorbs stuff, but it is completely inconsistent with the feats of affecting such beings. No one ever gets the same effects from being around Rare Kinds, if it were that they by nature absorb all life then just being around Sakura would be 1 heck of an absorption power. The divine shield is stated to just was away powers, not absorb them, like the Death God state does, and as i said, that is proven by the fact that rare kinds can exist around power users and not passively kill them (which would have been the case).

As for that, well, you see, Sakura was capable of drawing life from Zed who is one of the immortals along with Heike and the rest of the people who didn't get warped by Pandora's box. As for the Life = Mana and all that stuff. That's kinda contradicted by the fact that Yukihina, who literally lacks "life", and can basically life infinitely for as long as it isn't returned, still has limits to his mana as he can become "lost". So i'll say she absorbs both.

In any case "Can negate any powers without limit" is still a NLF, since nothing in Code Breaker even remotely approaches tier 4.

The moment you quantify stuff like time, space, void, EE, illusions etc as "below tier 4" like it makes any sense to give them tiers, makes me want to quesiton the validity of the argument.

Also I wish to point out that Sabrina has powernull resistance. Spells aren't easily nullified even by other tier 4 witches.

A tier 4 dude doesn't have tier 4 power manip. And again, transmutation does not have potency. If you have a gun with infinite bullets doesn't mean you can send infinite at a time, nor does it mean you can say "it's NLF for X dude to EE the bullets when the magazine is infinite", the magazine is infinite, not the ability.

If you can't compare time reversal and time stop, then Sakura has literally no feat of resisting time stop. Doesn't exactly support your argument.

She has feats of nullifying time abilities, it's more on your side to prove why time stop is so much different or why it wouldn't be nulled no?

And the seal she did with Pandora's Box was a different power than her "divine shield". Not to mention that its was still on a smaller scale.

Sure, just stating the scale we're dealing with. Also "on a smaller scale"? Sealing the dimension of time is on a...smaller scale...than 4-A. I gotta question what system we're working on right now cus it sure doesn't really seem like we're comparing stuff the right way. If you mean smaller scale than time stop, then no. Pretty sure it is not on a smaller scale, considering one is just stoping time, wheras one is a seal that trapped 3D objects on top of time within it (4D). As for the different ability, considering she's still doing that via being a rare kind. I gotta question, why is "absorption" and "can't be affected" the same power whereas this is different? Seems like we're just trying to apply arbitrary borders on powers or removing them to benefit the fight at this point.

Life Absorption

Existence Erasure

Sealing

Possibly Reality Warping eventually

Yes, that is the blood of rare kinds. Basically their blood absorbs stuff, but it is completely inconsistent with the feats of affecting such beings. No one ever gets the same effects from being around Rare Kinds, if it were that they by nature absorb all life then just being around Sakura would be 1 heck of an absorption power. The divine shield is stated to just was away powers, not absorb them, like the Death God state does, and as i said, that is proven by the fact that rare kinds can exist around power users and not passively kill them (which would have been the case).
Except the power is in the blood. The school, after the affect was upgraded, has more AoE than normal but that is all. Rare kind blood does exactly the same on contact as proven by the rare-kind serum.

So no, the mechanism is still absorption. Honestly, it isn't even better for you to deny that. Otherwise the mechanism is "unknown" which would give you the least favorable assumptions regarding everything.


As for that, well, you see, Sakura was capable of drawing life from Zed who is one of the immortals along with Heike and the rest of the people who didn't get warped by Pandora's box. As for the Life = Mana and all that stuff. That's kinda contradicted by the fact that Yukihina, who literally lacks "life", and can basically life infinitely for as long as it isn't returned, still has limits to his mana as he can become "lost". So i'll say she absorbs both.

The immortals are immortals either by being undead or by controlling their limited life force well.

Sabrina has way more to start with, so any drain will take time.

Yukihina's life is separated from him, but it still exists. Since the official and often repeated fact is life force converts into special powers, I'm going to say he still somehow is able to draw on his life force from a distance. Or it's a plot hole.

The moment you quantify stuff like time, space, void, EE, illusions etc as "below tier 4" like it makes any sense to give them tiers, makes me want to quesiton the validity of the argument.

We give tiers to things like reality warping. You can be "5-B via reality warping a planet into existence". So yeah, we do give them tiers in terms of the amount of power that they have behind them.

Think of it as magic and anti-magic. One power cancels out the other and you need an equal amount of one to cancel the other completely. Unless there is a mechanism that safely allows to extrapolate to anything else these kinds of relations are assumed to exist.

A tier 4 dude doesn't have tier 4 power manip. And again, transmutation does not have potency. If you have a gun with infinite bullets doesn't mean you can send infinite at a time, nor does it mean you can say "it's NLF for X dude to EE the bullets when the magazine is infinite", the magazine is infinite, not the ability.

Your gun example doesn't relate to the situation, since Sabrina has demonstrated putting this level on energy into single spells.

And yeah, a tier 4 dude doesn't have power manip by default, but witches have demonstrated to negate the spells of witches, which are tier 4. So witches with tier 4 power null could still not do it, so why should Sakura be able to.

She has feats of nullifying time abilities, it's more on your side to prove why time stop is so much different or why it wouldn't be nulled no?

Nope, burden of proof is on you, since you claim she negates a power she never demonstrated to negate on a scale she never demonstrated.

Resisting things like time acceleration & deacceleration powers isn't assumed to be enough to move in time stop, so why should resisting time reversal, which is even harder to compare?

Sure, just stating the scale we're dealing with. Also "on a smaller scale"? Sealing the dimension of time is on a...smaller scale...than 4-A.

Sakura didn't seal an entire timeline or anything like that. She sealed a phenomenon of country wide, possibly planet wide, scale. (Though country is stated more often IIRC)

So she sealed a small amount of time. Way smaller than the scale of Sabrina's time stop.

wheras one is a seal that trapped 3D objects on top of time within it (4D)
Since the tiering revision we consider low scale 4D as no indication of power.

I gotta question, why is "absorption" and "can't be affected" the same power whereas this is different?

Because you can negate powers by absorbing the energy behind them, but you can't seal something using absorption or power null.

So they have to be different powers.

Life Absorption, Existence Erasure, Sealing, Possibly Reality Warping eventually

All of these being powers she rarely to never uses, especially against other people.

Not that any of that would work, since their range is too low to hit Sabrina when she simply teleports away from them. Sabrina can outrange Sakura indefinitely.

Fair enough on the AoE but not NEARLY fair enough on the effect. If a small layer of rare kind blood can cause that effect, how does having a dozen liters of the same blood hugging you not produce even a remotely similar effect?

Not really. The mechanics is more plainly nullification. Again, the death god and divine shield were treated seperately, and they do have feats of working far differently. And as stated again by Masaomi "the offensive and defensive are different" (He says they have the defensive nullification and the offensive absorption). As for the mechanics seems to be hinted quite a lot that it's "nullification" basically if it encounters a rare kind any special power is turned into "nullfication" so it is turned to nothingness. It is just the fact that rare kinds are polar oposites to "special powers" so they just nullify each other when they come in contact.

The immortals are immortals either by being undead or by controlling their limited life force well. Sabrina has way more to start with, so any drain will take time.

How does this make it any better than them? Besides she absorbed life from Zed who is actually dead. So moot point either way.

Yukihina's life is separated from him, but it still exists. Since the official and often repeated fact is life force converts into special powers, I'm going to say he still somehow is able to draw on his life force from a distance.

If he could draw life force from a distance then there would literally be no point to taking it away from him. He would still be mortal because he would be able to draw from it at a distance. As for a plot hole, i'll say no, it's just that they absorb both. Kind of like if im allowed to use other verse examples here, Rakudai where it states that "magic is literally the size of your fate", but you can drain or nullify magic without "draining fate". So just because 2 are equalized doesn't necessarily mean 1 cannot coexist with the other otherwise as i said, Zed would be just dead (as he has no life force due to being dead), Yukihina would not be able to use magic, not get lost etc.

We give tiers to things like reality warping. You can be "5-B via reality warping a planet into existence". So yeah, we do give them tiers in terms of the amount of power that they have behind them.

Can i ask you why you did this? Reality Warping is specifically a way to gain a tier in our system. Whereas none of the cases i mentioned are things that can get tier nor be quantified in tiers by our system. So you literally slapped them of as "reality warping", just to make it look like they can gain a tier. That's literally changing the topic, it was never about reality warping.

Think of it as magic and anti-magic. One power cancels out the other and you need an equal amount of one to cancel the other completely. Unless there is a mechanism that safely allows to extrapolate to anything else these kinds of relations are assumed to exist.

For the mechanics i discussed it above, but how do you quantify magic and anti magic if your feats are like "blew up a star". Where as mine are creates eternal illusions, erases nothingness, cuts space etc. This is my point, you're trying to compare incomparable things. They by nature do not exist in the same system as AP which is why we call them hax.

Your gun example doesn't relate to the situation, since Sabrina has demonstrated putting this level on energy into single spells.

Precisely, in "a single spell" not "in any single spell". Unless you have some kind of amazing way ot give 4-A to transmutating humans.

And yeah, a tier 4 dude doesn't have power manip by default, but witches have demonstrated to negate the spells of witches, which are tier 4. So witches with tier 4 power null could still not do it, so why should Sakura be able to.

Depends on in verse and power null mechanics. Not all in verse stuff applies outside of the verse like how we don't say Jiren resists anything that's from a physically weaker dude.

Nope, burden of proof is on you, since you claim she negates a power she never demonstrated to negate on a scale she never demonstrated. Resisting things like time acceleration & deacceleration powers isn't assumed to be enough to move in time stop, so why should resisting time reversal, which is even harder to compare?

Not really, we are never that strict on power nullification applications. As it stops being "we are unsure" and it becomes more like "bias towards power null". It's like saying "she nulled fire, but can she nullify a spear made out of fire, cus she hasn't shown that". It's the same media, different applications. Secondly, "resisting" and "nullifying" are terribly different in application, let's not use resisting rules for it. Thirdly we do not do that for acceleration and slow down but we do the reverse, because slowing down time is quite literally a weaker version of stopping it.

Sakura didn't seal an entire timeline or anything like that. She sealed a phenomenon of country wide, possibly planet wide, scale. (Though country is stated more often IIRC). So she sealed a small amount of time. Way smaller than the scale of Sabrina's time stop.

She did not seal an entire timeline she sealed part of it. And you don't seal time in a "country wide scale". Otherwise everything would get messed up, everyone would get warped within the country, the would not have time, but the rest would. Besides, we do not default to certain sizes when it comes to "the dimension of time", that thread was made some time ago, about time stop. Unless specifically shown on a certain scale, it should be assumed to be universal. The country/planet is the amount of destruction the nothingness would cause, but the country itself didn't get sealed. (About country vs Planet, it's actually stated about the same amount, but planet is more believable tbh due to the fact that that was the entire plan of the prime minister, to "pain the whole world a different colour").

Since the tiering revision we consider low scale 4D as no indication of power.

Hmm, iirc even a high scale 4D is not an indication of power, due to the fact that we only go by "timelines or not". So unless its low 2-C it is not an indication of power. May be wrong on that though, correct me if i am.

But despite this, a low scale 4D, isn't infinitely above 3D, sure, but doesn't mean the 1D time stop is more impressive.

Because you can negate powers by absorbing the energy behind them, but you can't seal something using absorption or power null.

So they have to be different powers.

Hmm you kinda can, cus you're still absorbing things inside of pandora's box, but i believe it was stated that inside of Pandora's existence comes from the same "trait/ability" whatever i should call it as Sakura rewriting all the damage done by the nothingness and bringing back all the people that were killed by it. Also pandora itself will absorb powers, (the EE works on powers too and we know that pandora can seal abilities too).

All of these being powers she rarely to never uses, especially against other people.

Not that any of that would work, since their range is too low to hit Sabrina when she simply teleports away from them. Sabrina can outrange Sakura indefinitely.

True form Sakura doe, she does use all of them and very in character at that. As for outranging.

1. Can she move to different planets?

2. Has she ever done that? Outranging people indefinitely?

3. If push comes to shove, Sakura would just eventually wish something in order to deal with her, like she did with nothingness and pandora.