Tsuna vs Ise

Tsunayoshi Sawada (Post Future Arc) vs. Issei Hyoudou

• Speed is equalized
• Inheritance Ceremony Arc Oath Flame Tsuna and Pseudo-DxD Issei will be used
• All other Standard Battle Assumptions

Who wins and why?

Can Issei just like... Plop down Ddraig?

What do you mean?

I think he mean he can summon Ddraig.

Tsuna scales above Daemon Spades(2.39 teratons) by defeating him casually. While Issei is 3 Teratons and can summon Ddraig who is comparable to himself, They can Halve Tsuna power and take it and also bust up(both of them can) and Tsuna power Null is negged by Ddraig limited Durability negation (Can bypass any object or defensive ability that impedes his attacks from directly hitting his targets, allowing him to directly damage the core of their bodies) Either that or Tsuna seals GG at the start, but I see them taking it most than not. My vote is on Issei.

(This is from looking on Issei profile so I could be wrong)

Ok, 1 vote for Ise.

Bump

Bump

ise FRA

That's 2 for Ise.

Bump

First of all

"Can bypass any object or defensive ability that impedes his attacks from directly hitting his targets, allowing him to directly damage the core of their bodies"

^This is not breaking through Mantello Di Primo or tanking any sky flame power null without further context.

Tsuna could absorb any ranged attack issei or Draig launch at him; and if they get in close, they get sealed.

YungManzi said:

First of all
"Can bypass any object or defensive ability that impedes his attacks from directly hitting his targets, allowing him to directly damage the core of their bodies"

^This is not breaking through Mantello Di Primo or tanking any sky flame power null without further context.

Click to expand...

By this wiki: (Issei)Penetrate: One of Ddraig's original abilities which were locked away in the depths of the Boosted Gear. It allows Issei to bypass objects that prevent him from hitting his opponents directly and any form of defense, whether physical or supernatural - including those that nullify powers on contact, allowing him to directly strike the core of his opponents, potentially inflicting fatal damage. It can be used to see through solid obstructions when applied to the eyes, and can even be used to bypass attacks in certain situations; for instance, a beam struggle.

(Ddraig)Penetrate :It allows Ddraig to bypass objects that prevent him from hitting his opponents directly and any form of physical or supernatural defense, including those that nullify powers on contact, allowing him to directly damage the core of his opponents, potentially inflicting fatal damage. It can be used to see through solid obstructions when applied to the eyes, and can also be used to transmit his attacks through other attacks in certain situations; for instance, a beam struggle.

According to DxD Fandom : Penetrate: Another ability of Ddraig. It allows Ddraig to penetrate through all defenses. He has greater skill with the ability than Issei, able to conceal his usage such that only very experienced opponents can distinguish which of his attacks are enhanced by it.

I think it can pass through Mantello Di Primo.

They still double themselves up and halves Tsuna power down.

"including those that nullify powers on contact"

I'm still not conviced.

In order to get through to Tsuna's power null, he would need layers and layers of resistance (or many feats of defenses power nulling his ability and him coming back and breaking through the powernull after becoming stronger). Which isn't implied in this. I realized just how big the power null scaling chain is in KHR when going over it in another battle like 5 months ago.

"Gokudera powernulls DWF barriers which powernull abilities<Gamma resists<<Genkishi is far superior to Gamma and is powernulled by Yamamoto<<Xanxus Powernull's Powernull<Funeral Wraiths resist<Mukuro resist funeral wraith's powernull which should be comparable to Tsuna's powernull which can null the abilities of funeral wraiths<<Byakuran easily powernulls Tsuna's most powerful attack<Tsuna resists after upgrading his ring"

There's probably more to it than that, because that's just up until the choice arc.

Issei's scaling chain of 'breaking through powernull' would need to surpass this at the very least.

You might have a misunderstanding, Penetrate doesn't "break" through anything, it ignores it as if it isn't there in the first place so I don't see how these layers are relevant. The way you put it is as though Penetrate resists power null, but it doesn't; it just does not interact with those power null abilities and straight up ignores them.

And if we wanna be technical here, Sacred Gear Canceller nullifies all Sacred Gears which include Alphecca Tyrant's ability to rewrite concepts and Telos Karma's causality manip and Penetrate ignores that.

So what? Is it like spatial manipulation?

That's mentioned nowhere on the profile, so of course I wouldn't know that.

Honestly, I'm not sure why Tsuna vs Issei is constantly redone. Issei can divide Tsuna until he's not in his tier anymore, and proceed to one shot him. Tsuna's only real win conditions are first edition or petrification. The latter he's only used once on an opponent, but it's flame attack and thusly can be dodged. And the first one requires physical contact, which he can't really do without being one shot.

Every time this match has been made, Divide alone has essentially rendered anything Tsuna can do, mute. Even his higher tier attacks.

I don't think he has a plausible win condition here. If Yung, or anyone else disagrees, please feel free to let me know. Even if he can block penetrate, that doesn't give him an actual win condition. Only one less way to be one shot.

@Litentric

Welcome back, it's good to see you bro.

So is Issei's bypassing actual spatial manipulation or some kind of phasing?

Hmm, not really. And I don't think I'd call it phasing either; it's just explained as transmitting the attack to the very core of the opponent, bypassing anything in the way such as physical or supernatural defenses, attacks, etc.

According to the spoilers for the latest volume, it ignored the intangibility or non-corporeality of Angra Mainyu and inflicted damage on him (I guess by attacking his core), so it just acts like the specific defense mechanism or attack isn't actually there.

I don't think there's a specific way to classify it aside from just "Limited Durability Negation".

Then you guys need to get it figured out.

Make a CRT to dicuss what it is.

Without that, we can't even judge how it would work on other characters in vs battles.

Because as of right now "It bypasses all defenses" is NLF, at least until you guys determine how it actually does it and how to classify it.

I don't see the need? It's not like anyone would argue that Penetrate would bypass actual conceptual or causality based defenses.

@Yung

Thank you. I'm still very busy, so I won't be on as often as I was. But I'll be following some things even if I don't comment on them.

Burning Full Fingers said:

I don't see the need? It's not like anyone would argue that Penetrate would bypass actual conceptual or causality based defenses.

Click to expand...

The problem is, it's not properly defined.

So I can't even present an argument for anyone resisting or getting rid of it outside of obvious scenarios.

If there's not a clear way to define or distinguish it, it shouldn't even be used.

Also, @Burning

Can we get your opinion on this match please.

@Yung

Look at the durability negation page, the first type listed. Just think of Penetrate as a better version of that, and that it attacks the core rather than internal organs.

Not good enough Burning.

If it was just that, Mantello Di Primo would still work just fine.

But you claim it doesn't, so present an argument or explaination as to why it can bypass it, other than just saying it does.

Does the attack transfer energy through defenses?

Does it manipulate space?

Does it teleport directly inside of someone's core?

Does it phase through their defenses?

You need actual explainations and reasonings (Along with evidence). Otherwise, I can't even argue against it.

YungManzi said:

If it was just that, Mantello Di Primo would still work just fine.

Click to expand...

Well, obviously. That's why I said you should think of Penetrate as better than that.

But you claim it doesn't, so present an argument or explaination as to why it can bypass it, other than just saying it does.

I have given you one. It transmits the attack through defenses and has done so with Sacred Gear Canceller which nullifies Sacred Gears as I posted above, meaning it doesn't actually interact with said null or Penetrate would have been neutralized.

Not only that, it could have bypassed Worthless (at least as of Volume 20). This is Worthless and Penetrate being capable of ignoring the null to transmit the damage:

…I see, so that was [Worthless]. The power which could invalidate special abilities—. That's how he was able to invalidate my Boost ability. Even so, I didn't stop attacking! I then ramped up the intensity of my attacks. I madly attacked with punches and kicks in combination with each other, and unleashed potent shots of demonic energy, yet all of my attacks were still invalidated by the Champion with a small gesture. Even when I fired shots of demonic energy, they simply burst into nothingness in the palm of his hands. I enhanced by attacks with [Boost] and [Penetrate] as I continued to attack. But the attacks which had been strengthened with [Boost] were still invalidated by him. Even when I used the ability of [Penetrate], I was unable to hit him; despite counterattacking with [Penetrate] in a blind spot, I was unable to do anything effective. …If I was able to land a direct hit on him with [Penetrate], the damage would be transmitted to him directly!

Here is Apophis' darkness, which can absorb attacks:

I fired out several Dragon Shots as I flew towards him. Apophis remained still, and showed no intention of dodging. Just when my Dragon Shot hit him — in that instant, some kind of darkness appeared in front of Apophis. My Dragon Shot and the magic energy that was emanated from the darkness eliminated each other at the same time! …Sensei had spoken about it before. Apophis was able to manipulate darkness and shadows. He was able to utilise his full strength under the shade of darkness. If he began to control the weather, then I definitely had to stay on guard against it. In other words, the darkness that appeared in front of him just now absorbed my Dragon Shot and then eliminated it.

Here is Apophis' darkness, which cancels abilities:

After that, I moved to put some distance between us. I then launched a continuous bombardment of Dragon Shots from the air. Apophis conjured up darkness in front of himself, and erased all of my shots of demonic energy. Apophis then called forth a surge of darkness to surround me and fired projectiles from the darkness towards me. I immediately dodged them so that I wouldn't be hit…those bullets of darkness dissolved anything without reservation as soon as it touched them, and upon seeing that, cold sweat trickled down my entire body. It'll be too dangerous if I take even a single direct hit. Using darkness to cancel out my attacks, and using darkness to melt everything—.

Can even cancel the functions of items:

The tremendous amount of pain caused me to cry out in lament. …If I didn't do something about this…I was going to die! I took out the Phoenix Tears that Ravel had given me — but when I saw them, I was speechless. The Tears had also been dyed black, and had clearly lost their function. …Was Apophis' special ability even able to spread to the Phoenix Tears…? Apophis drifted in mid-air as he gradually drew closer to me. More and more black water also swept closer to me. …Damn it…. Why are there always more of these ridiculously strong people…. [True Queen] was the form that I achieved after undergoing all sorts of hardships. But in such a short time, opponents which exceeded it had appeared. …In that case…am I unable to protect anyone…? Eventually, the crimson armour was released. I simply lay there, with both my demonic energy and stamina exhausted. Perhaps this world is one in which only Apophis can survive in… I clenched my teeth with regret. Even so, the threat of Apophis still gradually came closer—.

It could have also absorbed Ise's fist and erased it. Here is a use of Penetrate bypassing said darkness and hitting Apophis:

The powerful dragon's aura and the holy aura melded together as I slashed the blade down towards Apophis, but it was still repelled by the darkness, and no damage was able to be done at all. Seeing that nothing happened when the blade of Ascalon touched the darkness, I maintained the blade in that extended position and changed my arm into Solid Impact mode! With the blade of the sword in front of me, I pointed it straight towards Apophis!

[Solid Impact Booster!!!]

It was an Ascalon version of Solid Impact + [Penetrate]!

[Penetrate!!]

The thrust of Ascalon and the Impact both hit Apophis squarely…. Although I could feel the sensation from it, unexpectedly, Apophis still did not counterattack.

Does the attack transfer energy through defenses?

That's similar to what I said earlier.

Ddraig, whose body was trembling as a result of the concussion, clenched his teeth to regain his consciousness. Ddraig then clenched his fist one more time and punched Crom Cruach. The Evil Dragon made a cross out of his arms and tried to guard against it—However, upon the moment of impact, the shockwave didn't harm his hands, but the very core of his body instead.

"Gaha!"

Crom Cruach spouted blood and breathed heavily because of the brutal attack.Upon the moment of impact, Ddraig had used the [Penetrate] ability. It was one of the special techniques of the Red Dragon Emperor Ddraig. He transferred the shock from the opponent's hands so the damage went to the very core of his body instead.

So you can see that there's no impact on the outer defenses, the ability just bypasses stuff and goes straight to the core.

Crom did not feel anything on his arms when Penetrate was used, but rather the core of the body.

Apophis could not cancel Penetrate.

Worthless could not invalidate Penetrate.

Sacred Gear Canceller could not nullify Penetrate.

Angra Mainyu's intangibility / non-corporeality was ineffective against Penetrate; it did not care about his physiology and still affected him. Ise's attacks apparently could not reach Angra without the use of Penetrate because he's a mass of dark aura.

It does not interact with defenses the way you seem to misunderstand. It can also penetrate through attacks stronger than those of the user, but I don't suppose that's the issue here.

None of that explains how it gets past Mantello Di Primo. Not a single thing.

The moment it touches it, he gets turned to stone and powernulled to oblivion.

Nothing you've mentioned counters that. If it's merely transfering energy through defenses (Which is what the quotes suggest), that gets nulled, as Mantello Di Primo can work on DWF and Tsuna can harm non-corporeal things anyway.

Those quotes also imply he is touching whatever it is he penetrates, which kinda conflicts with what you said earlier.

If he still needs to touch Tsuna to use it, it gets nulled even without considering the fact that tsuna can null energy (By virtue of Mantello Di Primo turning anything that touches it to stone and nullifying it)

By the way, I'm not arguing Tsuna wins. I'm arguing against this notion that penetrate somehow gets through powernull and petrification which has several layers of resistance nullification.

@Yung and Burning

Maybe this is a debate you two can have on your respective walls. If no one is arguing that this isn't a stomp, as Tsuna has no plausible win con, then it's likely best to move on and not crowd the thread. The debate seems interesting, but is best completed on a place where it doesn't clutter the thread. For, since Yung doesn't believe Tsuna would win, it's no longer a debate on what the thread is about.

@Yung. Do you really think Ise stomps?

Hard to say, Tsuna has a wincon, but he probably won't use it before he get's one-shot.

If Isse only expometially increased his power and not speed, I could argue that Tsuna could win (And is what I orginally thought heading into this), but alas, that's not the case.

YungManzi said:

The moment it touches it, he gets turned to stone and powernulled to oblivion.

Click to expand...

I didn't know about any petrification.

Although you could say the same thing for Apophis' darkness which melts things on contact. And Ise said his arm would have been erased if he touched it.

Nothing you've mentioned counters that. If it's merely transfering energy through defenses (Which is what the quotes suggest), that gets nulled, as Mantello Di Primo can work on DWF and Tsuna can harm non-corporeal things anyway.

Okay, let's say that's what it does for the sake of this argument:

You make it seem like the energy is interacting with the null in the first place; you would be correct if it does, but like I've shown you, Penetrate does not interact with the null in the way you're thinking or it would have been nulled by Worthless or Sacred Gear Canceller. There's no way around that as Ise does not have a resistance unless he uses True DxD.

I don't know what DWF is, but as I said, Sacred Gear Canceller nullifies all Sacred Gears, which includes Alphecca Tyrant rewriting concepts and the probability / causality manipulation of Telos Karma.

Any feats for Montella, DWF or whatever on that level? Because Penetrate bypasses Sacred Gear Canceller.

Also, I don't get what nullifying energy is supposed to do? All of the nullification abilities I mentioned can do that and Penetrate ignores them, so it gets transmitted just fine.

I mentioned Angra's non-corporeality thing cause I was trying to show that Penetrate does not do anything to external stuff, which is exactly what a cloak is. Worthless and Sacred Gear Canceller don't even have any physical forms like a cloak. In any case, DxD characters can hit non-corporeals too and Angra can't be touched normally.

I don't see anything about this cloak of Tsuna's that makes it special compared to the absorption and nullification Penetrate can ignore. It might have layers, but that is quite literally irrelevant to what Penetrate does. Layers of potency don't matter if Penetrate isn't interacting with the null in the first place. The fact that you're still mentioning layers means you don't still grasp that it ignores the null. It doesn't have a special resistance against nulling, it just bypasses. Even then, those layers don't make it better than the potency of Sacred Gear Canceller.

I don't get the need for mental gymnastics, it's just this simple: Penetrate can ignore defensive abilities and transmit the user's attacks to the core; said abilities can nullify other abilities including energy which you've mentioned.

Those quotes also imply he is touching whatever it is he penetrates, which kinda conflicts with what you said earlier.

I don't think I said he does not touch the person. I said Penetrate doesn't interact with those nullification abilities and ignores their effects. I did not say Ise doesn't touch the person. But actually, Sacred Gears are also nulled by touching Rizevim. Ise made direct contact with Rizevim several times and was able to bypass the nullification effects by imbuing his physical attacks with Penetrate, so yeah.

There's also still the same issue with Apophis' darkness. It melts things on contact.

If he still needs to touch Tsuna to use it, it gets nulled even without considering the fact that tsuna can null energy (By virtue of Mantello Di Primo turning anything that touches it to stone and nullifying it)

Nullifying energy does not matter to Penetrate, the things I've mentioned can do that and far better.

I don't think petrification doesn't even matter though, his armour protects him from its effects. He just shatters and reforms it.

@Litentric

I just thought I should reply as I don't understand how Yung thinks Penetrate is interacting with the power nullification abilities I've mentioned; if it does, Penetrate itself would be nullified because Ise does not get power null resistance until his True DxD form.

Plus, even if we go with the argument of Mantello nulling energy, Penetrate has ignored abilities that nullify or absorb energy (additionally, due to its portrayal in-verse, it should also be capable of bypassing Absolute Defense, which does just that).

You're main argument which is "It doesn't interact with Tsuna's null" is something I just don't see from what you've provided.

As I've said, in order to say whether or not it could bypass it, we would need to know the mechanism which alows it to do so, and as of now, "Energy/Penetrate's power passing through things" is simply not enough evidence (As that's merely energy manipulation, something akin to what Shield Hero characters do when using Hengen Muso, and there's no way that's getting past Mantello Di Primo).

Anyway, everyone agrees this isn't a balanced match either way. Should be closed.

Well, I honestly do not see how you don't understand that.

I don't remember much about Shield Hero, much less the feats of Hengen Muso. But as I said, if we want to classify Penetrate like that (transferring energy thing), it has feats of bypassing power null better than Mantello di Primo. And again, everything I mentioned can not just nullify energy, but do much better. Penetrate can ignore them, so I don't see the issue. Hengen Muso has its own feats and how it's treated in verse and so does Penetrate.

Alright then.

Edit: Looked at the Hengen Musou page at Shield Hero wiki and it seems more similar to senjutsu to me, which is sending the user's energy into the opponent to disrupt their aura from the foundation and also destroy internal organs. It even has the enhanced perception, natural energy absorption and stats enhancement to boot, lol.

Still get havle btw

I do think there's a method of victory here, and it's if Tsuna attacks from long range.

Divine Dividing requires Issei to touch the enemy before it works, so with HI Tsuna should be able to feel Issei's touch is dangerous and just blast his gauntlet with petrification from Nats.

Tsuna definitely has the long-range advantage since Issei's blasts take time to charge and if Issei launches them toward Tsuna, he can absorb them and gain power equal to them, which would just power him up more.

With oath flames, Tsuna can condense his attacks and pierce through Issei.


Just wanted to input my opinion.