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NNT Multipliers

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DemonGodMitchAubin

DemonGodMitchAubin

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OK, so I just wanted to make this CRT to clarify what multipliers we'll be using for the series, cause there's a lot and I just want to get this all clear

1. Full Counter, of course as you all know, Full Counter has been stated many times to increase the power countered, originally we saw it as 2x by now the idea that it is 3x has come up and I don't think that's valid, several means more than 2 however that can be 2.1 or 2.7 for all we know and I'd just feel safer leaving it at 2x not to inflate since we have a long scaling chain of multipliers, however that could be contested if enough proof was given for a 3x multiplier

2. Assault Mode has been stated by people to scale to Full Counter based of Meliodas hurting Near Noon Escanor because who tanked his own attack being Full Countered back at him, the issue with this is that Escanor never actually tanked the attack, he straight up didn't get hit by it, he dodged it, and even if he didn't, doesn't he have reistance to Fire and Heat Attacks, which is what was reflected back at him, so I just don't know if we can confirm that Assault Mode scales to Full Counter as a transformation

3. Demon Mark, this is the big one, as well all know there was a statement of a multiplier... however said multiplier was made to signify the increase of speed and velocity of Ominous Nebula, not necessarilly the Attack Power of Zeldris himself, not to mention there are no other stated multipliers for Demon marks, as well, Zeldris already had a Demon Mark activated, he just activated his second one, so the idea that all Demon Mark's are equal isn't true, Base Meliodas to Demon Mark Meliodas can't be confirmed as a comparitive amp from Zeldris's first Demon Mark to his second since Zeldris didn't go from Base to Demon Mark, so I'm not down with universally seeing Demon Mark as a 2x Multiplier since the statement people apply to it doesn't actually apply directly to Attack Power or Defense, it applies to Zeldris's Technique Speed, and there are no other multiplier statements, so I don't think it can be a staright up 2x multiplier for everyone

Pleases let's discuss, I imagine I'll get a lot of contention for these points I've brought up, I'm more than willing to change my mind if people make valid arguments against the points above

Also remember to keep this civil
 
I agree on the first point For the second point, the attack exploded inside perfect cube, meaning all the damage still hit Meliodas and Escanor, the latter being injured due to the attack. If he was immune to heat then the attack wouldn't have hurt him,which wasn't the case. For the third point it's kinda vague, but if Zeldris boosted his speed by 2 times and he is weaker than Mel it would mean Mel can at least boost his power that much, if not more. Not enough evidence for this though.
 
Alright I can agree with the Escanor thing, as for the Demon Mark

Zeldris's 1st Demon Mark to 2nd Demon Mark isn't compared at any point to Meliodas's Base to Demon Mark, plus the multiplier was stated to be about Ominous Nebula's Speed, not Attack Potency, so we can't scale Demon Mark Universally as a 2x Multiplier to Attack Power
 
Currently we consider the word several as 3. That's where the 3x for full counter comes from. It's also supported by the fact that the data book and the series also said it's more than double as well as being several times in two cases.

Full Counter was stated to reflect the attack back at its user at over double the original power. Chandler also stated it reflects the attack back at several times the power. A random Camelot knight also said the same thing

IMade also confirms that it says more than double.
 
I'm neutral with 1, and 2. I mean, we don't have the exact multiplier for FC, but Chandler stated that the ability reflects the attack several times, it may be higher or lower than 3x. Now about the 2.. Escanor tanked the explosion but why would he dodge the attack? Maybe because taking a direct hit would be much more fatal? Is there any difference taking a direct attack and only taking the explosion? About the third point I'm not sure, it's kind of weird the Demon Mark multiplier, same issues with the FC so I won't argue.
 
Hey it's one of the few manga I can comment on. Just popping in to say that "several" just straight up means three or more, I doubt it has ever, ever been used to mean "2.1" lol
 
That's my issue with it, Escanor didn't actually tank the Full Countered Attack, he didn't even really get hit by the aftermath explosion, also Demon Mark Statement didn't say that it multiplies attack power at all, it was speed of Ominous Nebula, the Demon Mark Multiplier can't be applied to AP at all
 
I'm fine with either 2x or 3x for the Full Counter multiplier.

I'm less sure about the Demon Mark multiplier.
 
I just have a big issue with always assuming a character hit by Full Counter has a durability equal to 2x to 3x their own AP, it should only apply if a character takes little to no damage from the Full Counter
 
The explosion was contained in Perfect Cube so both of them still tanked it. Also Perfect Cube is also able to reflect damage. Perfect Cube got hit by the Full Countered Cruel Sun which means one of the two (It's either Escanor who used the magic or Meliodas who reflected the magic) tanked the attack again.

But yeah after looking at it I'm not really sure if Zeldris' demon mark multiplier can scale to Meliodas' demon mark multiplier. But the demon mark should still be a 2x boost for Zeldris as Merlin said speed and intensity of the vacuum. And I'm pretty sure intensity in some cases mean strength and power.
 
^Of Course

But for proof that a character has 2x to 3x their own durability, they shouldn't get badly damaged from their own attacks, I just feel safer with it scaling to characters who tank said Full Counter Attacks, not just assuming, oh they got hit by Full Counter and isn't dead, therefore we scale them above their durability, it just leads to insane inflation of scaling chains

Like First Form Demon King Zeldris was getting wrecked by Full Counter
 
@Peter1129; technically speaking wouldn't the Cruel Sun hit both Meldioas and Escanor? So neither of them would fully scale to it.
 
@Damage3245 Well this was what happened

Escanor uses Cruel Sun and it gets Full Countered to a corner of Perfect Cube and explodes. Next page Escanor was shown to be fine same with Meliodas. So both of them got hit by the explosion in a contained area so I think this counts as both of them tanking it.

And like I said Perfect Cube was shown to reflect attacks back at whoever attacked it so one way or another one of them completely tanked it.

@DemonGodMitchAubin Demon King Zeldris didn't actually get wrecked by his full countered attack. He managed to block it while being injured. Most of the damage was done by Meliodas, his own attacks barely affected him.
 
It was shown that Escanor and Meliodas didn't fully get hit by the attack, there were indirectly caught in the aftermath explosion and they weren't at the epicenter of the blast, to say either of them tanked the attack is false, cause none of them were directly hit, it's like how you can survive being knocked away by the blast of an explosion, but you weren't caught in it

I can't believe I'm saying this, but in the anime, this is also confirmed
 
Yeah, it reflects attacks coming from the outside so that it keeps people out, but does it reflect attacks on the inside, that doesn't make much sense, also in the anime, it was shown neither of them got hit by the attack
 
I agree with Peter and Ah Gou. The evidence shows heavily that Perfect cube reflects both inside and out. Doesn't make sense that it would inside in the first place tbh.
 
But would the amount of times he got bounced against the walls from a single punch count for anything?
 
So basically Full Counter stays as 3x. Near-Noon Escanor's durability is still 3x his AP via tanking the Cruel Sun being full countered and than reflected by Perfect Cube which means Assault Mode stays as 3x. And the 2x multiplier is for Zeldris' 2nd Demon Mark only and Meliodas' Demon Mark goes back to unknown.
 
@Peter

Would Assault Mode be counted as over 3x base since:

Base Meliodas at 60k <<< Escanor at 114k

AM Meliodas >>> Escanor's durability
 
@PrinceOfTheMorning I mean currently we consider Assault Mode as 3x because

Post-Revival Assault Mode Meliodas > Near-Noon Escanor Durability 3x> Near-Noon Escanor AP > Post-Revival Demon Mark Meliodas.

We don't have confirmed power levels for Post-Revival Demon Mark Meliodas but narratively speaking nobody was impressed by Demon Mark Meliodas' power while everybody was shocked by Near-Noon Escanor and Assauit Mode Meliodas. Which means Demon Mark Meliodas should be weaker than Near-Noon Escanor.
 
Zeldris's Demon Mark Multiplier actually doesn't even matter for him, since with God and Ominous Nebula, he'll scale to Afternoon Mael, who is 6-B+
 
Yeah it's on his profile right now

At least 6-C, at least High 6-C with God, higher with Ominous Nebula | High 6-C, likely Low 6-B with God, Low 6-B with Ominous Nebula

Although looking back at it since his Demon Mark is a 2x multiplier wouldn't this back scale to his base state with God and 2nd Demon Mark? Ahh crap more scaling stuff that needs to be discussed.
 
His Demon Mark is at least a 2x Multiplier, it could be way higher for all I know, it could possibly be even a 50x Multiplier, so backscaling him to half his Demon Mark is far more incorrect and not accepted on this site
 
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