Major Dormammu Revision

Might as well do this now, before I put it off any longer.

I doubt this will get accepted, but I'm going to try it anyways. This is a Dormammu revision, and an attempt to get him a consistent High 1-B incarnation.

This thread will go over Dormmamu's first, second, third, fifth and eighth incarnation, the eighth being Dormammu's absolute peak before canonically being depowered to the levels he shows nowadays.

First Incarnatio
Dormammu's original and weakest incarnation first appeared in Strange Tales #126 and was destroyed in Strange Tales #146.

- The Ancient One, even at his peak, could not defeat Dormammu.

- Dormammu is far stronger tha Doctor Strange.

- Dormammu threatens to destroy the Dark Dimension in his rage. The DD has "worlds beyond counting" and has been stated to have more dimensions than man's universe.

- Dormammu managed to seal a sleeping Eternity and attempted to fight him, although he was clearly inferior. Something notable is that in a Marvel handbook (the exact name escapes me atm), the Eternity that faced Dormammu here is treated as the same Eternity that was in Defenders #3, which would make this Multi-Eternity, not Universal Eternity.

Conclusion: The majority of Dormammu's feats in this incarnation are 2-A. His Dark Dimension feat is potentially Low 1-C, and the Eternity one could be considered High 1-B if you take the guidebook into account. Although even then, it wouldn't really be High 1-B AP as Dormammu was portrayed as significantly beneath Eternity in this scenario. However, it would be High 1-B Sealing.

Overall, I would consider Dormammu's AP in his weakest incarnation to be 2-A.

Second Incarnatio
After returning following his supposed death during his fight with Eternity, Dormammu reappeared in Strange Tales #171 and was absorbed into the Evil Eye in Defenders, Vol. 1, #118. In this incarnation, he has less statements than his first one, but the statements are of greater scale.

- Dormammu stated that he would hold sway over all dimensions. Considering the previous scan showing that the Dark Dimension had higher dimensions, and Dormammu originally came from the Faltine realm, which has more dimensions than the Dark dimension, it is very likely that he meant higher dimensions and wasn't using dimension as a synonym of universe.

- The above statement is supported by Doctor Strange stating that surrendering to Dormammu would put all dimensions at stake.

Conclusion: Both of these statements could be lowballed to 2-A, but considering the knowledge that both Dormammu and Doctor Strange have of higher-dimensional realms such as the Dark Dimension, the highball of High 1-B could actually be plausible.

Third and Fifth Incarnations
I only have one thing for Dormammu in his third incarnation, so I'll combine it with his fifth, which has a statement supporting the one in his third. Dormammu's third incarnation lasted from Doctor Strange, Vol. 1, #6 to Ghost Rider, Vol. 1, #36, and his fifth lasted from Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #1 to Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #2

- Doctor Strange stated that, if he reached his peak, Dormammu could challenge the Celestials. This is supported by Dormammu in his fifth incarnation stating that once he reached his apex, he would be able to destroy all the Celestials.

- Dormammu gained all the power and spells of Doctor Strange, and this is reiterated here. He kept all of these in his next incarnations, in fact, his sixth incarnation explicitly said all he lost was Strange's body. He kept his memories and everything else.

Conclusion: The statements here are only 2-A, though you could perhaps consider the Celestials statements higher when you consider that they do possess High 1-B weaponry...

Eighth Incarnatio
This is Dormammu at his absolute strongest, and later he became stronger by absorbing Eternity. While him absorbing Eternity is an amp, it should be noted that this is the strongest Dormammu has ever been and by the end of the storyline this happened in, Dormammu was canonically depowered past even his typically shown levels. As such, I believe it can be included here. This incarnation lasted from Amazing Spider-Man, Vol. 2 #57 to Defenders, Vol. 3, #5.

- Doctor Strange, despite having knowledge of the likes of Multi-Eternity and even The Living Tribunal, believes that nobody can defeat Dormammu at full power. Note: Obviously this wouldn't mean Dormammu is superior to The Living Tribunal, that would be asinine. But it would support him being on the High 1-B level.

- Dormammu has a pandimensional army under his control, and he is stated to be pandimensional quite a few times during Defenders #1.

- Albeit with Umar's help, Dormammu was able to kill Multi-Eternity, and upon bathing in his essence, he would become lord of all creation. And as Dormammu stated Eternity was the most powerful being in the multiverse, that should confirm that it was indeed Multi-Eternity and not Universal Eternity.

- As Dormammu now has Eternity's power, the statements of dimensions folding into themselves (which is only a fraction of this power) and his core trigger another creation event should apply to this incarnatio.

- Furthermore, Eternity is stated to have infinite energy and to be the complete embodiment of everyone and everything on all levels of creation. Of course, since Dormammu has Eternity's power, this would scale to him.

Dormammu was only defeated at this point after being tricked into giving up Eternity's power, plus Umar was draining his power, and she did so far past Dormammu's typical levels of power. I believe this is what led to "Modern Dormammu," and his much weaker portrayal.

Conclusion: Dormammu's eighth and strongest incarnation is pretty obviously High 1-B, and even before he absorbed Multi-Eternity's energies, High 1-B for Dormammu's eight incarnation would be consistent with all the High 1-B showings in his weaker incarnations.

Final Proposals
Dormammu is given a Varies tier. His weaker incarnations are 2-A, and would be ranked as such. His strongest incarnation would be High 1-B. Overall:

"Varies. 2-A to High 1-B based on the incarnation."

Or… his tiers could be arranged as:

Tier: 2-A | High 1-B | High 1-B

Key: First, Third and Fifth Incarnations | Second and Eight Incarnations | After absorbing Multiversal Eternity's essence

Now, I know a concern here will be scaling. But the only people that scale to Dormammu are Zom, Cyttorak and SHuman-Gorath. These are non-issues because Cyttorak's page is just out of date in general, and Zom and SHuman don't scale to either of Dormammu's High 1-B incarnations. As such, this shouldn't cause any scaling issues.

Powers and Abilities
This is much more minor than the tier revisions, but still necessary as Dormammu is missing quite a few powers.

Power Nullification - Doctor Strange gets weaker just from Dormammu manifesting near him. (Second Incarnation)

Sleep Manipulation - Created a potion that put the Mindless Ones to sleep. (Unknown Incarnation)

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation - Dormammu's clash with Eternity caused a transdimensional holocaust. (First Incarnation)

Reality Warping? (Outside of the Dark Dimension) - Revoked Thor's godhood and Iron Man's armor. (Unknown Incarnation)

Cosmic Awareness/Precognition - Has "mystic senses", and nothing approaches the Dark Dimension without him knowing. (Unknown Incarnation)

Non-Corporeal? - Doctor Strange stated that physical force would not suffice against Dormammu. (Eighth Incarnation)

Mind Manipulation - Controlled Scarlet Witch. (Second Incarnation)

Every single ability Doctor Strange (Classic) has - As shown in the scans above, Dormammu gained all of the powers and memories of Doctor Strange, and never lost them in his later incarnations. So, he should have every power that Strange has. (Fifth Incarnation)

I would have to say a hard definitive no to upgrading Dormammu to High 1-B. It would create scaling nightmares with other characters, and be far too inconsistent. Sorry.

You can ask the following members if you want further input:

Kepekley23, Matthew Schroeder, Zensum, C2 of Omego, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, SuperAPM, Zark2099, ClassicNESfa.

It wouldn't scale to anyone though, as I went over. And it wouldn't be inconsistent, especially with Dormammu's eighth incarnation as he has no anti-feats or scaling against it.

Also, the term "dimensions" is usually used as a term for magical universes in Marvel Comics, not geometrical directions. Just something to consider.

In addition, Dormammu only demonstrated the ability to rewrite a single universe after draining power from Eternity.

We cannot chop characters up into multiple storylines, when no difference was intended via power-ups. Again, sorry, but we are never going to accept this.

We already accept Dormammu having different incarnations on his profile, and he canonically differs in power between each one, always getting stronger from incarnation to incarnation with the exception of the second incarnation.

Dormammu..I've come to bargain!

We have to try to find some form of consistency, and as I mentioned earlier, you base the High 1-B scaling on unreliable claims, or outliers.

Again, you can ask the people I linked to to help out if you wish, but I am adamantly opposed to this, and am far too overworked to waste time arguing about it.

Yes, but I gave context for each one in the OP and explained why the feats would be High 1-B as opposed to 2-A. They certainly aren't outliers considering that the majority of his feats in his High 1-B incarnations are High 1-B. And this is entirely consistent, as I went over in the OP. Neither of Dormammu's High 1-B incarnations scale to anyone, except Eternity I guess, who is already High 1-B. There are no scaling issues, and Dormammu canonically has several different incarnations.

I asked some of them.

If you acknowledge that several of those instances would be asinine/idiotic if taken at face value (such as Dormammu > TLT), then there is no reason to use them to scale Dormammu to Multi-Eternity, either, aside from personal preference.

Not only that, a good half of your scans are based on interpreting the term "dimension" as "higher dimension". Considering the literal, unironical thousands of times the term has been used to denote universes instead, this is cherrypicking.

Once that is taken into account, the basis comes entirely from the pair of scans where Dormammu was portrayed as above Multi-Eternity. Considering the innumerable amount of other feats putting the same incarnation as vastly lower, those are blatant outliers.

I literally explained why Dormammu > LT was nonsense. And Dormammu's final incarnation has his own High 1-B statements and doesn't solely operate on scaling to Eternity. And I literally explained in the OP why it would be higher dimensions and not universes.

Please show me these supposedly "innumerable" feats that put Dormammu's eighth incarnation as "vastly lower" than High 1-B.

Literally in the OP. It says a greater amount of spatial dimensions than man's universe. If it meant universes, that would make no sense. Dormammu and Doctor Strange would both have knowledge of higher dimensions, which is why I said it's plausible they meant higher dimensions instead of universes.

No, you just said Dormammu > TLT based on that scan was nonsense because you thought so. We can't have your cake and eat it too. If scaling him to TLT based on that is nonsense, then doing so to Eternity also is.

Yes, the Dark Dimension has more spatial dimensions than normal universes do. But we have recently revised our Tiering System. Unless the spatial dimensions in question are being actively treated as higher infinities, they are worth nothing, and that scan is clearly not treating the extra spatial dimensions as higher infinities. It's giving them a realistic treatment.

I strongly agree with Kepekley23. We should close this thread, and I would appreciate if Tracer does not attempt to perform any similar extremely unreliable massive upgrade stunts in the future. I am ridiculously overworked, and do not have the time and energy to deal with them. Seed kept pushing for them for over 3 years. I do not want any repeats of that experience.

That makes zero sense. How does him not being above LT mean he can't be comparable to Multi-Eternity.

Based on what is it not referring to higher infinities?

@Ant Okay, can you explain why this is unreliable? Neither of Dormammu's High 1-B incarnations would scale to anybody. You're acting as if I'm trying to make Dormmamu just High 1-B, which isn't even close to what I'm doing. And no, I'd prefer if you didn't just close this thread without even acknowledging the stuff that isn't even related to his tier.

> That makes zero sense. How does him not being above LT mean he can't be comparable to Multi-Eternity.

That isn't my argument.

You tried to use that scan to support him being comparable to Multi-Eternity, even though you yourself acknowledged that, if taken literally, it'd also suggest he was above TLT. Therefore, you have to acknowledge that the scan can't be used to make him scale to Multi-Eternity, either. Doing so is cherrypicking.

Really, this is real basic logic.

> Based on what is it not referring to higher infinities?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Fallacy#3._Burden_of_proof_fallacy

You're the one who needs to prove it is. It isn't on me to prove the negative. Aside from the fact that the vast majority of real life higher dimensions do not hold that they are higher infinities, we have recently revised our Dimensional Tiering system to only allow higher-dimensional characters if the higher D in question is outright said or implied to be a higher infinity.

Also, the scan describes the higher dimensions in terms that are derived from superstring theory branches, the vast majority of which posit either compact dimensions or additional coordinates/directions (which is indeed what the scan is talking about).

And before anyone/you get me wrong, there is obviously such a thing as High 1-B hierarchies in the Marvel Multiverse, hence our ratings. I'm just saying this scan isn't one of them.

No, I did not use it to compare him to Multi-Eternity. I mentioned Multi-Eternity to show Strange has knowledge of High 1-B beings, I said it should put him on the High 1-B level. Which I directly said in the OP.

Mhm, let's see, it's being narrated by The Living Tribunal of all people, why would he not being referring to dimensions as higher infinities? And considering that we already accept higher dimensions in Marvel as higher infinites, I see zero reason why this would be any different.

Also, I'd still like to see these supposedly innumerable amounts of feats for Dormammu's eighth incarnation that contradict him being High 1-B.

Dormammu own highest explicit feats are strictly of a 2-C scale. Even 2-A is reliant on scaling chains from other characters. Nothing indicates that he would be an infinite order of infinities above universal scale... but then again, I don't think that it is reliable to scale the other cosmic entities to this either.

In any case, defeating what was implied to be Multi-Eternity is an outlier, and the acquired power was only shown as sufficient to recreate a single universe, so the story was filled with contradictions.

We are not going to accept such extremely exaggerated and unreliable statistics. Again, we should close this, and I would appreciate if you do not attempt any similar stunts ever again, as Seed and others have made me sick and tired of them. Thank you.

That is blatantly false, Dormammu has two 2-A feats of his own already on his profile. And if you don't think the abstracts should be High 1-B, then a major downgrade is in order. Because I see no reason why the statements about dimensions here should be treated any differently than the other ones.

It wouldn't be an outlier for his eighth incarnation that has zero anti-feats to the contrary. And the idea of Dormammu only being able to recreate a single universe is the only contradictory thing here. It was Multi-Eternity, Dormammu stated his power would make Umar and him lords of all creation, Dormammu himself stated Eternity had dimensions folding into themselves within him, the only contradictory thing is claiming it only gave him the power to recreate a single universe, something Dormammu can do on his own.

What exactly makes it unreliable? Because I've gone over why it should cause no scaling issues whatsoever. What actual reasons are there for two very specific incarnations to not be this high? What anti-feats are there for Dormammu's eighth incarnation? Because the only things that would contradict him being High 1-B at that point is when he was defeated, which was explicitly because he gave up Eternity's power and was being drained by Umar. And again, I would rather you not close the thread without even acknowledging the second half of the OP that is not related to his tier at all.

Dimensions can be literally anything in Marvel, as we see in the Odin revisions. They can be stuff like Nightmare Realm and Hell or at best, universes. Unless explicitly stated, they aren't just assumed to be mathematical dimensions.

Also, Dormammu may might as well be overestimating his power, and even if he isn't, I think it's stupid to assume that explicitly implies AP, and not hax and stuff.

Alongside that, his 8th incarnation is a temporary amp, which we do not apply, so

I posted a scan that shows it was spatial dimensions, not universes. And The Living Tribunal is the one narrating, so I don't see why it would be universes instead of actual dimensions.

This could refer to several things, would you mind specifying what exactly you mean? Cause quite a few of Dormammu's "overestimations" have similar statements from other people that support them.

His eighth incarnation isn't solely an amp though. He received an amp during Defenders by absorbing Eternity, yes. Other than that, not really. And I explained why I think it should be included anyways.

Btw nobody is acknowledging the second half of the OP that suggests abilities that he should have added.

I mean, tier revisions are more important to address than P&A revisions, you yourself should've guessed that...

I know that, but I'd hope it would at least be acknowledged.

You're forcing me to completely go through 20 different scans now you monster

Off-topic, you have a weird double standard in the OP itself that "you can consider these feats as High 1-B or 2-A, I'll pick one or the other" which honestly makes it kinda difficult to understand what you're trying to do, so maybe format it better next time?

Firstly, we definitely aren't going to do the 'incarnation' keyong, as that'll make the profile straight up impossible

Now, you yourself admit the 1st, 3rd and 5th incarnations to be consistent as 2-A, so I won't bother with those for the time being.

I completely disagree with the 2nd incarnation being High 1-B, the Faltine thing states that it has an extremely dense universe and thus more "dimensions than the dark universe", supported by the first scan labelling dark dimension having "worlds beyond counting" implying the Nightmare Realm-esque worlds rather than straight up mathematical dimension, and putting that all in perspective, it is equally likely for it to be either a world or a nathematical dimension, and seeing as it is contradicted by 3 incarnation, it's the former. In the first "I'll conquer all dimensions" the **** does conquering a mathematical dimension mean? Nothing. Unlike conquer a realm. This'll be stretching the logic of a scene for the sake of slapping a tier on it. If you wanna argue "it's metaphorical language not literal" I can metaphorical language the feat out of existence then.

The eighth incarnation has so much stupid going on it's making my head hurt. I'll go through it when I get the time

I was attempting to address the idea of considering the feats 2-A instead of High 1-B, which is what I think they should be considered as, but I guess I didn't word it well.

What exactly do you mean it would make the profile "impossible?"

Did you see the scan I posted earlier where it described the Dark Dimension as having a greater amount of spatial dimensions than the universe? It wouldn't make sense for that statement to be referred to universes, because for one, The Living Tribunal was narrating it and as a High 1-B being he would understand the difference between an actual dimension and a universe. And also, if it meant universes, the sentence would make no sense. Dormammu didn't claim he'd conquer all dimensions. He said, and I quote; "And with your capture, nothing can prevent me from once more holding sway o'er all the dimensions!" Strange then says; "I dare not despair... cannot surrender hope...! Not while the fate of Earth... of all the dimensions lies at stake!" Nothing was said about him "conquering" dimensions.

Okay then...

Impossible as we'd have to classify each and every incarnation of him from then on, which is impossible and leads to 20 different keys.

Both realm and dimension are interchangeable in Marvel Comics, and I didn't say universe, I said realm. The Faltine universe has multiple realms present in it already, which is a perfectly logical statement and ties into the previous statement of the universe being dense, as such it makes perfect sense. It isn't about reliability, it is in regards to the vague language being used leaving alot to interpret, and as such is supremely unreliable to use. "Holding sway o'er all dimensions" means to conquer them, because if they were mathematical dimensions and he was High 1-B as you purport, he'd already have control over them, and thus have "sway'd" them already and as such he very likely addresses the realms instead

Not really, since after his eighth incarnation, he was depowered into "Modern Dormammu," who doesn't have a profile. Nor does he seem to have any new incarnations anymore. And I did give the other option of just giving him a single Varies key.

I'm aware they're interchangeable, I explained why it would mean an actual dimension here and not a universe. Can you explain what you mean by "realm," then? And the statement doesn't say the Faltine domain has more realms than the Dark Dimension. It says it has more dimensions than the Dark Dimension. There's nothing really vague about it, especially with the Dark Dimension explicitly being stated to have more spatial dimensions than the universe. Also I don't get your logic. Why would Dormammu have to already have control over all of them if he was High 1-B? Also he did say "once more" holding sway over them, so... Also you didn't address Doctor Strange's statement. And I'm not entirely sure why you immediately go to assuming Dormammu meant realms and not dimensions.

I don't know if my opinion is neede or not but from the scan I saw(the ones that loaded) the First incarnation is indeed 2A. Second Incarnation is at most 2A because the first scan reagrds more about the Dark Dimension or just plain dimesnions tbh. The scan you are using to scale calls Nightmares realm,etc in the same sentences as "spatial dimension" also the previous scan also talks about worlds in the dimension. So, if you are using that to scale then it is indeed 2A for second incarnation. Of the eight incarnation only the first scan I could see, and in that Strange says he is unstoppable and could turn the earth into cinders. He is logically speaking about the power of beings in Earth. And the talk gives more like a Universal Conquest vibe rather than what you seem to be suggesting. Eternity or LT are not even brought in the conversation.

I agree with Zark and Immortal.

Realms are places like Asgard or Hell which are part of the universe itself, just inaccessable unless by special means. Dimensions and worlds are used to signify realms in Marvel as even in the name itself, it is Dark dimension and Faltine thing didn't explicitly mention "oh yeah there are more spatial dimensions in Faltine" which leaves room for the argument of the scan referencing realms instead of dimensions, which again, is cross-verified by the line preceeding it being stated as the Faltine universe is denser than ours.

About the Dormammu statement, can you legit explain to me what Dormammu means then? It doesn't make a lick of sense to me if he's referring to Mathemarical Dimensions...

I just don't think your interpretation is any better than mine tbh, so even as of now we can see the BS nature of the scans in their vagueness. This is exactly the same as that 2-A Odin thing, where it's your headcanon versus mine.

Getting technical, there was an old fairly obscure Doctor Strage scan from the early 1990s that claimed that the Dark Dimension was more than 3-dimensional, but anything more than 2-A for Dormammu would be very inconsistent.

@Zark Then just ignore the Faltine one, the Dark Dimension still has the statement of having more spatial dimensions specifically than our universe.

It makes pretty good sense to me. Dormammu states that he will have control over all dimensions, which is then backed up by Doctor Strange staying that all dimensions will be threatened if Dormammu is not stopped. I don't really see how it's confusing. The term "holding sway" is synonymous to "holding power," "be most powerful," or "be in power." I think it seems pretty blatantly High 1-B, especially with Strange backing it up with his statement.

The only one you can really call vague is the Faltine one. The Dark Dimension one specifies exactly what it means by dimension and makes more sense to mean actual dimensions given who the narrator is.

@Ant Inconsistent with what? What inconsistencies are there with his second and eighth incarnations specifically? You keep acting like I'm trying to do this for Dormammu across all of his history and I'm not.

@Immortal The scan that says the Dark Dimension has more spatial dimensions than man's universe also claims Nightmare's realm does so as well. I don't see what you're trying to say there.

In the first scan Strange also voices his belief that nobody can beat Dormammu at full power, which should still put him on a High 1-B level. And then there's all the stuff from Defenders, where Dormammu controls a pandimensional army (pandimensional being defined as; "Of or pertaining to all dimensions"), Dormammu himself is stated to be pandimensional on more than one occasion in Defenders #1, he literally killed Multi-Eternity (with Umar's help) and then he gains Multi-Eternity's power (which has numerous statements in the same story, one of which is even used on Eternity's profile, to be High 1-B so saying it's only universal is the inconsistency). And he only lost because he gave up Eternity's power, plus Umar drained Dormammu down to the point of being 4-B, so there's zero inconsistencies with his eighth incarnation being High 1-B.

We are not going to insert statistics keys for specific storylines, without any explocit power-ups happening within them, period.

We try to evaluate a high, but not outlier-level, estimation across all of his oldschool appearances, and aside from being implied to have fought something greater than universal Eternity, he has never remotely been explicitly portrayed as that powerful.

Except this is something that canonically happens. Dormammu canonically returns in a different incarnation every time he is destroyed, and explicitly gets stronger almost every time. The only time he didn't get stronger was from incarnation two to incarnation three. And incarnation eight made the fact that it's a power up so much clearer.

This is already accepted on his profile, this idea was accepted way back when the 2-A revisions happened in the first place. You can't claim they're outliers when Dormammu has no anti-feats (in his eighth incarnation at least) to contradict him being High 1-B. He very clearly has been portrayed as that powerful, at the very least in his eighth incarnation.

In conjunction with Strange mentioning that "nobody" could beat Dormammu at full power, he referred that Dormammu simply was a threat to the life of the universe itself, meaning regular Eternity. That's it. He was clearly talking about the universal beings and regular superheroes, not the multiversal ones.

Dormammu regenerates when he is temporarily destroyed, and sometimes he increases his power by absorbing other entities into himself. That is it. He does not have Reactive Evolution to a ridiculous degree that pushes him into tiers that are infinite degrees of infinity above his regular ones.

Don't you realise yourself how ridiculously exaggerated what you are pushing for is?

This thread is pointless and annoying. It wastes our time for no good reason and will not ever lead anywhere. It should be closed.