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Doctor Fate Revamp
- Thread starter LordTracer
- Start date
- Status
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Well, that's all I got. I was also going to say a thing about Kismet and the Phantom Stranger, but I'm tired now and this probably isn't the place for that anyway.
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Yeah, Kismet being a buffer between the 2 factions literally doesn't mean anything when she is firstly, more consistently described a lord of order during her first appearance, and secondly, that would just mean she belongs to both, so Nabu's statement still applies and scales.
Anyway, it is best we wait for knowledgable members now.
Anyway, it is best we wait for knowledgable members now.
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Bump
I can see an argument for 2-C or 2-B when it comes to Kent. Kent and Inza together should be 2-A. Nabu can be argued as 2-A or High 2-A. Personally, I think Nabu suffered a power creep after being passed around to a lot of different writers for decades and started out 2-A but started getting consistent High 2-A feats before the end of his run.
If keys are given to the other Fates, Hector should scale to Kent, Inza should also scale but be a bit weaker (think Supergirl to Superman), and Linda and Eric should be 2-C.
I can see an argument for 2-C or 2-B when it comes to Kent. Kent and Inza together should be 2-A. Nabu can be argued as 2-A or High 2-A. Personally, I think Nabu suffered a power creep after being passed around to a lot of different writers for decades and started out 2-A but started getting consistent High 2-A feats before the end of his run.
If keys are given to the other Fates, Hector should scale to Kent, Inza should also scale but be a bit weaker (think Supergirl to Superman), and Linda and Eric should be 2-C.
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I am still not opposed to this, but would prefer some more input from knowledgeable members:
KLOL506, Zensum, C2 of Omego, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Ultima Reality, SuperAPM, Zark2099, Ayewale.
KLOL506, Zensum, C2 of Omego, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Ultima Reality, SuperAPM, Zark2099, Ayewale.
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Well, the only one I can find that most definitely to Fate is Post Crisis Mordru. There's a bunch of characters that scale to him but I can't tell if it's to his Pre or Post Crisis selves. These include:
Time Trapper
Darkseid
Parallax
The Infinite Ma
Trigon (Post-Crisis) also scales to The Spectre don't know what's happening to him exactly tho.
EDIT: Actually scratch that, Darkseid has been seen scaring Lords of Chaos by just shouting at them, and of course he's exactly the same entity Pre and Post Crisis. I believe Time Trapper is the same case, tho do correct me if it isn't. I think this would affect everyone else above as well.
Time Trapper
Darkseid
Parallax
The Infinite Ma
Trigon (Post-Crisis) also scales to The Spectre don't know what's happening to him exactly tho.
EDIT: Actually scratch that, Darkseid has been seen scaring Lords of Chaos by just shouting at them, and of course he's exactly the same entity Pre and Post Crisis. I believe Time Trapper is the same case, tho do correct me if it isn't. I think this would affect everyone else above as well.
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Mordru is an odd case in that he seems to always scale to whatever version of Fate he is fighting. No explanation is ever really given for this as far as I am aware, but he most consistently faces off against Kent, and he never faces Linda and Eric. You could argue that this scales all versions of Fate to each other, but it's really the only feat that does that so I'm uncertain of its legitimacy. I guess this is kind of taken care of in Nabu's final battle with him, during which the two are pretty evenly matched despite Nabu waning in power, but it still doesn't mesh with Mordru being considered one of the most powerful Lords of Chaos, which scale to Nabu.
Time Trapper scales to Mordru, The Infinite Man scales to Time Trapper, and Parallax also scales to Time Trapper.
Darkseid can scale to Kent, but we cannot scale him to the Lords of Order and Chaos because of how weird that meeting was in my opinion. First of all, it ocurred during the Eric/Linda era, when Fate characters were being downplayed a lot. Even Nabu was only described as a universal consciousness during that ru. Secondly, Chaos claims they don't actually fear Darkseid but instead respect him as an agent of theirs. It's unclear which one is correct. And thirdly, the entire event was retconned as not being Darkseid but instead Desaad disguised as Darkseid. It's clear nobody was really happy with how the interpretation turned out.
Trigon should scale to both the Spectre (being in the same tier of power) and Dr. Fate directly (likely being above his strongest incarnatio).
The Spectre (Jim Corrigan) can scale to a 2-A Fate, but he cannot scale to a High 2-A version. Fate has High 2-A feats later in his run (one even involving a High 2-A Spectre), but these feats do not start ocurring until years after Crisis on Infinite Earths. What you want to do with that information is your own perrogative.
The Spectre (Hal Jordan) should scale above Parallax.
Pre-Crisis Superman also scales to Kent, but I don't know how much that matters because Kent is still probably beyond him at the end of the day. He's been shown doing things like staggering Fate with his punches, surviving Darkseid, threatening Fate with the help of Martain Manhunter, threatening Darkseid with the help of Supergirl, taking hits from Time Trapper, etc. Being comperable isn't being equivalent, so I don't know if it warrants an upgrade, but it's only relevant if Kent Fate specifically gets a 2-B tier.
The Phantom Stranger scales equivalent to or above the most powerful version of Doctor Fate. The version used on this site specifically scales to a form of magic explicitly stated to be above Doctor Fate.
Time Trapper scales to Mordru, The Infinite Man scales to Time Trapper, and Parallax also scales to Time Trapper.
Darkseid can scale to Kent, but we cannot scale him to the Lords of Order and Chaos because of how weird that meeting was in my opinion. First of all, it ocurred during the Eric/Linda era, when Fate characters were being downplayed a lot. Even Nabu was only described as a universal consciousness during that ru. Secondly, Chaos claims they don't actually fear Darkseid but instead respect him as an agent of theirs. It's unclear which one is correct. And thirdly, the entire event was retconned as not being Darkseid but instead Desaad disguised as Darkseid. It's clear nobody was really happy with how the interpretation turned out.
Trigon should scale to both the Spectre (being in the same tier of power) and Dr. Fate directly (likely being above his strongest incarnatio).
The Spectre (Jim Corrigan) can scale to a 2-A Fate, but he cannot scale to a High 2-A version. Fate has High 2-A feats later in his run (one even involving a High 2-A Spectre), but these feats do not start ocurring until years after Crisis on Infinite Earths. What you want to do with that information is your own perrogative.
The Spectre (Hal Jordan) should scale above Parallax.
Pre-Crisis Superman also scales to Kent, but I don't know how much that matters because Kent is still probably beyond him at the end of the day. He's been shown doing things like staggering Fate with his punches, surviving Darkseid, threatening Fate with the help of Martain Manhunter, threatening Darkseid with the help of Supergirl, taking hits from Time Trapper, etc. Being comperable isn't being equivalent, so I don't know if it warrants an upgrade, but it's only relevant if Kent Fate specifically gets a 2-B tier.
The Phantom Stranger scales equivalent to or above the most powerful version of Doctor Fate. The version used on this site specifically scales to a form of magic explicitly stated to be above Doctor Fate.
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Well, Nabu needs a 2-A key at a minimum, which makes Mordru our first big problem due to the number of people he scales with.
I can understand why people would want to scale him to Nabu, but if we do that, it will kind of mess with our scaling chain by necessitating that Time Trapper, The Infinite Man, Parallax, Spectre (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, and Pre-Crisis Superman all upgrade to 2-A.
So there are roughly three options for dealing with this. Either we can scale Mordru to Kent exclusively, we can give him "Varies between [Kent] and [Nabu]," or we can give him something like "At Least [Kent], Possibly [Nabu]" or "At Least [Kent], Likely [Nabu]."
I can understand why people would want to scale him to Nabu, but if we do that, it will kind of mess with our scaling chain by necessitating that Time Trapper, The Infinite Man, Parallax, Spectre (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, and Pre-Crisis Superman all upgrade to 2-A.
So there are roughly three options for dealing with this. Either we can scale Mordru to Kent exclusively, we can give him "Varies between [Kent] and [Nabu]," or we can give him something like "At Least [Kent], Possibly [Nabu]" or "At Least [Kent], Likely [Nabu]."
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Well, I definitely do not think that it is a good idea to scale all of those characters to 2-A.
Mordru seems to have been treated in an extremely inconsistent manner in terms of power-level.
Mordru seems to have been treated in an extremely inconsistent manner in terms of power-level.
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Mordru is one of those odd characters who was more affected by Zero Hour than he was the Crisis on Infinite Earths. He was originally more associated with the Legion of Super-Heroes than the Lords of Chaos. His relevance to Chaos was mostly religated to his role in Amethyst's series, which takes place almost entirely disconnected from the rest of the DC universe. After being defeated by her, he was sealed until the Legion of Super-Heroes series, where he was most often treated as an equal to the Time Trapper.
However, after Zero Hour seriously restructured the Legion of Super-Heroes continuity, Mordru essentially just moved into a Dr. Fate villain slot, and he has been treated more or less like his arch-nemesis ever since. He scales to Fate (Hector Hall) because he's expected to fight Fate, but you'd think his nature as such a prominent Lord of Chaos would scale him to Nabu, along with a few of those feats referenced above by Hykuu.
In lieu of better options, it might be wise to treat Mordru as inferior to Nabu due to a lack of substantial equivalent high end feats. This solution would also work with Amethyst's tendancy to walk all over him, despite her also existing as a Lord of Order. I'd recommend either giving him an equivalent rating to Kent or giving him a "[Kent Tier], Possibly [Nabu Tier]" rating. Either way, only upgrade scaled characters to his Kent Tier specifically. Frankly, his profile probably needs larger revisions of its own somewhere down the line.
However, after Zero Hour seriously restructured the Legion of Super-Heroes continuity, Mordru essentially just moved into a Dr. Fate villain slot, and he has been treated more or less like his arch-nemesis ever since. He scales to Fate (Hector Hall) because he's expected to fight Fate, but you'd think his nature as such a prominent Lord of Chaos would scale him to Nabu, along with a few of those feats referenced above by Hykuu.
In lieu of better options, it might be wise to treat Mordru as inferior to Nabu due to a lack of substantial equivalent high end feats. This solution would also work with Amethyst's tendancy to walk all over him, despite her also existing as a Lord of Order. I'd recommend either giving him an equivalent rating to Kent or giving him a "[Kent Tier], Possibly [Nabu Tier]" rating. Either way, only upgrade scaled characters to his Kent Tier specifically. Frankly, his profile probably needs larger revisions of its own somewhere down the line.
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I think these are my proposals.
2-A: Nabu, Dr. Fate (Kent & Inza Nelson), The Spectre (Jim Corrigan), Trigon, The Phantom Stranger
Either 2-B or 2-C: Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson), Dr. Fate (Inza Nelson), Dr. Fate (Hector Hall), Time Trapper, The Infinite Man, The Spectre (Hal Jordan), Parallax, Darkseid, Pre-Crisis Superman
2-C: Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss)
Mordru = Either "[Kent Tier]" or "[Kent Tier], Possibly Higher"
2-A: Nabu, Dr. Fate (Kent & Inza Nelson), The Spectre (Jim Corrigan), Trigon, The Phantom Stranger
Either 2-B or 2-C: Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson), Dr. Fate (Inza Nelson), Dr. Fate (Hector Hall), Time Trapper, The Infinite Man, The Spectre (Hal Jordan), Parallax, Darkseid, Pre-Crisis Superman
2-C: Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss)
Mordru = Either "[Kent Tier]" or "[Kent Tier], Possibly Higher"
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Also, here are some other members that you can ask to give input here:
Matthew Schroeder, KLOL506, Zensum, C2 of Omego, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Ultima Reality, Zark2099, Lord Tracer
Matthew Schroeder, KLOL506, Zensum, C2 of Omego, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Ultima Reality, Zark2099, Lord Tracer
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I think I'm more supportive of Modru being "[Kent Tier], Possibly Higher," since there is evidence to suggest that he may be suppressed when battling in a physical form.
Aside from that, I would prefer to hear from a few other people who took part in this thread before any of my proposed changes are implimented. See how they feel about it all.
Aside from that, I would prefer to hear from a few other people who took part in this thread before any of my proposed changes are implimented. See how they feel about it all.
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We have thoroughly discussed the Jaxon feat before, and reached the conclusion that 2-A would be too much of an outlier compared to Superman's other feats.
You can ask Matthew and the other people I mentioned earlier to comment here regarding it though.
You can ask Matthew and the other people I mentioned earlier to comment here regarding it though.
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Yes, I was thinking that the Anti-Monitor thing would support 2-A Superman as well. I'll ask some others about it though.
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I've asked Matt and a few others to give input.
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If Pre-Crisis Superman were agreed to be 2-A, then I see no reason why everybody else we are discussing here today would not also be 2-A. It would give the Helm of Fate a more consistent power output and resolve the scaling issue with Mordru as well. I'm not necessarily pushing for it, but it would be dishonest to say that it doesn't make some amount of sense in the discussion we are having.
Regardless, I'm also fine with my above listed revisions if I can find a couple people who agree with them. In particular, I'd really appreciate two cents from Hykuu, LordTracer, and SuperAPM, who have each contributed significantly to this thread.
Regardless, I'm also fine with my above listed revisions if I can find a couple people who agree with them. In particular, I'd really appreciate two cents from Hykuu, LordTracer, and SuperAPM, who have each contributed significantly to this thread.
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Come to think of it, is this really the right place to be discussing Superman revisions? That sounds like it's going to effect a lot of other characters. Maybe we should go with my above proposals that vary between 2-C and 2-A but leave the door open for somebody to discuss Superman at a later date on his own thread? I don't really know how this is usually done.
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If 2-A Superman is rejected, then I'd be fine just going with @ClassicNESfan's proposal. But I think 2-A for the Pre-Crisis guys is better.
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Well, if that's the route we've settled on, then we might as well start by looking at the evidence. Aside from fighting the Anti-Monitor, possibly restoring infinite timelines with Jaxon, scaling to Supergirl's fight with the Anti-Monitor, and making our current scaling chain more consistent, does anyone have any additional Superman feats that might be classified as 2-A?
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I agree with SuperAPM, I think that's enough for 2-A Pre-Crisis.
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