Doctor Fate Revamp

[Eficiente]

2-A Pre-Crisis Superman and Supergirl is a big no.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Do you have suggestions for how we should solve these scaling problems?

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I mean, we could just solve the problem by going with my original proposal. It would keep Superman at 2-C (or 2-B at the most) and Mordru could be dealt with by giving him a "Possibly Higher" add on to his tier.

 

[SuperAPM]

To be honest I don't really see the issue with it, but I'm fine with ClassicNESfa's proposal's

 

[LordTracer]

Same. Like I said I'd just go with his proposal if we can't get 2-A.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I'm not strictly opposed to Pre-Crisis Superman being 2-A, but either way, Doctor Fate and his cast definitely need an upgrade. Pre-Crisis was a time of even more inconsistencies than comics see today, so it wouldn't surprise me if Superman had some legitimate 2-A feats from that era in addition to legitimate feats that rank much lower and treat that level as his limit instead. My problem is that it's almost subjective at that point when considering which tier to go with. Fate and his crew, on the other hand, are objectively being lowballed right now and in desperate need of revision. I just don't want to lose focus of the original problem too much. Then again, I'm not exactly an expert in the standard operating procedure around here.

Proceed however you more experienced members would prefer, be it upgrading Superman or upgrading Fate and Co right now to focus on Superman in a different thread. Either way, I'll just be waiting over here to chip in when I hear something I can add to.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not opposed to upgrading Doctor Fate, but upgrading Superman would likely cause severe exaggerations.

We also still need more input.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Well, if we're passing on 2-A Superman, then I'd like some opinions on whether the following group should be 2-B or just 2-C:

The Spectre (Hal Jordan), Parallax, Darkseid, Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson), Dr. Fate (Hector Hall), Dr. Fate (Inza Nelson), The Infinite Man, Time Trapper, Pre-Crisis Superman, Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss)

I've listed them from what should be strongest to weakest. It should be noted that even Eric & Linda were capable of casually making a forcefield to protect against a blast that created numerous universes, and the lowest possible estimation for Superman's Jaxon feat involves at least several hundred timelines being recreated, so these characters are all 2-C at a minimum and likely scale fairly deep into it. By the time we get to Hector Hall, I have statements about him channeling the magicks of "a thousand worlds," but I'm open to any feats or suggestions that can help us place them more definitively.

 

[LordTracer]

I think 2-B would be best. Even if Superman's feat isn't considered 2-A, "all possible timelines" should be well into 2-B.

 

[Jared1111]

2-B seems alright, since arguably even at the low end of the Jaxon feat it would potentially be thousands of possible timelines/futures, and at best be countless. Hurting AM could also be considered the high end of 2-B.

Though that means now Post-Crisis/Rebirth is 2-A and the strongest mainline Supes (with Sun Dips) and hell it matches that one writer saying SP1M being stronger than Silver Age.

What a redemption arc. Getting knocked out by Joker Nukes and Pocket Dimension Superboys to taking down AM's brother with a beefed IMP.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I'd still like to hear from Hykuu and SuperAPM.

It would also be great if I could get some new feats for the listed characters rather than those already mentioned in this thread. Additional evidence is always welcome to support your specific scaling theory.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, I am not going to clear any of these very significant changes without input from the knowledgeable and trustworthy members that I mentioned earlier. Until then, nothing is going to happen.

 

[SuperAPM]

I'm fine with leaving Superman at 2-C, but if the possibility for a 2-B or even 2-A upgrade comes along then I'm fine with that as well. Either way; I'm fine.

 

[Antvasima]

In addition to that you should ask all of the people I mentioned earlier, Sera EX and Kepekley23 should preferably also be informed.

 

[SuperAPM]

For the record, whilst we could argue about whether Supe's should be 2-C or 2-B or 2-A based on his own feats, I don't believe he should scale to any of the aforementioned characters, whether that be Fate, Darkseid, Time Trapper or Mordru. They've always been portrayed as monstrously above him, especially Darkseid. So if the Fate upgrades go through, I believe Supe's should remain unaffected.

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed.

 

[LordTracer]

Yes, I agree as well.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Can we agree then to table Superman for the time being and only discuss his feats in the sense that they are relevant because of his ability to physically harm some of the mentioned characters, meaning they cannot scale infinitely above him or anything like that?

 

[SuperAPM]

That should be fine yeah

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

In that case, I would really like to discuss whether the following characters should be 2-B or 2-C:

The Spectre (Hal Jordan), Parallax, Darkseid, Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson), Dr. Fate (Hector Hall), Dr. Fate (Inza Nelson), The Infinite Man, Time Trapper

I understand that Ant will not allow any revisions until we talk to more of the knowledgeable members, but I'm only posing this question in search of a consensus before contacting them. I don't want to ask them over here only to provide an incomplete list of what needs to be done.

 

[SuperAPM]

All of those characters should be fine to go for 2-B. After that then all the Superman tier characters should remain at 2-C for the time being.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I will return to this with a more thorough analysis when I get some more free time. Until then, please feel free to continue discussing without me or move forward however you see fit. This page has been on and off for weeks now. A few more days probably won't hurt it.

 

[Jared1111]

Only time i remember a Superman level being, being a threat to Doctor Fate was when that panel of Ultraman knocking him out for a few panels, even with Auto Shields. This one i think

Anybody know the issue where it came from? Kinda want the full context.

Either way, yeah he doesn't scale to Spectre or Darkseid or anything, but there are instances where he has managed to knock back Fate , though it was when he was caught off guard. So don't know if they count.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Can we please put Superman aside for right now? I feel like it's more important we scale the characters this thread is actually about. Superman can chip, damage, stagger, and surprise Fate-level characters, and in some rare cases, he might even pose a threat to them, but at the moment at least, let's not treat him as comperable. It drags way too many extra factors into this. The most Supes might get out of this thread is an acknowledgement that he's deeper into 2-C than before.

 

[Jared1111]

I mean i was just wanted to point out that Superman has shown instances of being able to hurt Fate, or even other Superman level characters being able to stagger fate. So that they're not always "monstrously" above him (at least Fate) which contributes to this thread. Not like i'm bringing up the Jaxon feats.

The argument was that he couldn't scale to Fate, but there are instances where he has shown to at least be on his radar, which is worth at least some consideration for scaling. Not trying to derail or anything.

EDIT: and i may not even be right about the scaling either, just curious if anyone knew the full context of the Ultraman feat.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Granted. "Monsterously above him" might have been strong wording. Pre-Crisis Superman and people on his level have consistently shown the ability to hurt Fate characters in the past, but the basic assessment that Fate is generally superior tends to hold up from what I know. Superman's ability to hurt Fate is what will keep him at 2-C as long as Fate doesn't dip below 2-C, but if Fate gets upgraded to 2-B, he would not necessarily take Superman with him unless he was far into 2-B. That's a bridge to cross when we get to it. As it stands, I'm still trying to develop an opinion on if Fate should be 2-B at all. I'd really rather deal with that first. This is a Fate thread. Any changes to Superman that may or may not occur should take a back seat to the primary characters we're trying to evaluate.

 

[Jared1111]

That's fair. Either way I still agree with these upgrades.

I'll start another thread later for possible Superman upgrades when this is wrapped up.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Cool. Thanks. If you have any Fate feats to help me and the others determine his placement, please keep us informed. I'll try to develop an opinion on where I think Superman stands in this whole mess at the end, but I don't consider that the priority atm.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm not the most knowledgeable on Pre-Crisis but I'm against 2-B or 2-A Superman.

 

[Hykuu]

What about the main guy Fate?

 

[Jared1111]

I'm not the most knowledgeable on Pre-Crisis but I'm against 2-B or 2-A Superman.

I mean... i hate to be combative, but if you're not 100% sure on everything Pre-Crisis, how can you definitively say he can't be 2-B at the very least? Especially since his main 2-C feat could be interpreted as a 2-B one. I get not having 2-A, but why is 2-B so unreasonable? It's not like with Post-Crisis where is ***** up scaling to have Supes be Universal+ . But since almost all his top tier Pre-Crisis Superman foes are still way above just baseline 2-B, it's not like it breaks the verse.

Well whatever, another time another place. I do have this Fate feat of surviving being thrown through infinite dimensions by the Spectre , and he has the durability to survive a dimension of nothingness, but i don't know how those scale.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I think I've come to a conclusion about the powers here, but the wiki just ate my big post explaining it all, so I'll repost it again later. Sorry everybody. Wait for me, okay? I think you're really going to like it! It all ended up fitting together better than expected!

 

[Jared1111]

I know that feeling, had a really big Goku post i wanted to make and it got deleted like a year ago right when i posted. Was mildy miffed.

 

[Hykuu]

I'm fine with leaving Superman at 2-C, but if the possibility for a 2-B or even 2-A upgrade comes along then I'm fine with that as well. Either way; I'm fine.

^^

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I may be out for a day or two. Not sure. But I'll rewrite my full proposal when I get back. I think I found some pretty solid evidence for it all, and most of it fits together like a glove. Feel free to keep posting stuff here, but I'd appreciate it if I got to say my piece before this whole thing was submitted. Thanks.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. Fandom is buggy and tends to automatically delete posts that take more than 20 minutes to write. Sometimes it automatically deletes other posts as well.

As such it is always safest to copy the text of long posts before submitting them.

 

[The_Impress]

For the record, whilst we could argue about whether Supe's should be 2-C or 2-B or 2-A based on his own feats, I don't believe he should scale to any of the aforementioned characters, whether that be Fate, Darkseid, Time Trapper or Mordru. They've always been portrayed as monstrously above him, especially Darkseid. So if the Fate upgrades go through, I believe Supe's should remain unaffected.

I think this is an important comment by SuperAPM to be addressed before even attempting to scale Superman to him. Every comics character can basically damage each other, so that doesn't mean much in grand scheme of things, consistent comparability is a somewhat different concept, that accounts for logic, similiar feat showcase, and more.

Also, I'm in agreement with NESfan in the regards to Superman being excluded from this discussion for the time being, as it'll hinder progress and result in evaluators being confused from the actual topic of discussion, especially given Superman and Fate are from a different "weight-class" of sorts.

 

[Antvasima]

SuperAPM and Zark2099 make a good point.

 

[Jared1111]

That's fair, either way hopefully when NESfan posts his potential powers we can get these upgrades through.