Shovel knight is faster than sans reactions I just told you that sans attacks are faster than undynes spears which is listed that speed in the link you gave and basically any monster in the games attacks. Frisk is able to keep up with them and has massively higher determination than he did in that calc which is why they have the rating. Sans reacting to frisk to the point where it is literally impossible to hit him no matter the distance, even when they know exactly what he is going to do next, and even while he is sleeping which easily puts his reactions beyond than 1.6 times his attack speed. Its not even something a peaked human could do to a normal human. Your argument of shovel being faster is completely useless here and at most gives him a slightly better chance at hitting sans than frisk.
Ok so. Shovel can dodge and and down right out run magic attacks. That has no literal effect if we don't know the speed. And it was agreed that the Empty gun isn't scalable to a real guns speed. Plus he doesn't even dodge a danamaku is them. He side steps out of the one area frisk was shooting at. So he only "dodged several by stepping out of the one area Frisk was shooting. Not even that impressive of a feat since that gun has no real viable feats that make it any faster than anything else in undertale.
This is a strawman. I never said is scales to a real guns speed. My point is that sans has dealt with multiple ranged attacks being shot at him. Shovel knights danmaku is not even impressive at all and is something that can easily be countered by being good at dodging. Youre acting like five projectiles bouncing around the place is the equivilent to filling the entire room up to the point where there is little to no space to move.
I just love how you blackened this part alone; and not the other part where I specifically talk about him facing the sudden being slammed up, down, or a different direction. Which totally negates this point. I literally covered that immediately afterwards. Read peoples arguments before responding.
Briefly. You mean like Sans ability to manipulation your gravity suddenly in one direction? Cause that's what he does. He doesn't just forcibly hold you to the ground. He flings you in direction, and then usefully does an attack afterwards. So yea. A sudden change in gravity. Strawman x3. I never said sans forces you to the ground. He throws you around the room in every single direction non stop. Comparing that to being blown in one direction and then another by some wind is a blatant false comparison
Shovel knight gravity dodging argument
Okay so im looking at the scene in question and it looks like you are comparing
this to
this. This is a blatent false comparison.
Shovel knight is not dodging anything nearly as complex as what sans can perform. This is entirely shovel knight moving to the right position so he can manoeuvre around the stagnant obstacles while using the wind to his advantage. The wind moves in a consistent pattern, gives him plenty of time to plan his next position and at he most dodges a few onscreen projectiles at a time in the entire level.
This is in no way comparable to being slammed into multiple different walls and having bones immediately rise from said walls with no way of knowing. You need to learn the difference between avoiding obstacles, dodging projectiles, and avoiding complex danmaku patterns. And again, sans can soul hax anyway if he wall slams hard enough. Nothing shovel knight has avoided is comparable to sanses danmaku no matter how much you exaggerate the context.
And I should mention. That's someone who was notably slower, less experienced, less skilled, and less equipped. Where shovel knight is Better equipped, far more experienced, far more skilled, and notably Faster, which much faster attacks
Noteably slower - Has nothing to do with sans giving trouble to someone who has dodged more complex danmaku patterns on their own level. And on top of that isnt massively slower than shovel knight during genocide. Shovel knight is only noticeably faster than sans danmaku but has no experience dodging danmaku on said level. Frisk is similar speed to the damnaku and despite better experience, has trouble dodging it. Shovel knight has little means of dodging sans damnaku flawlessly.
Less experienced - Has fought every monster in the underground multiple times, killed every one of them and has repeatedly dealt with far more complex patterns than anything shovel knight has faced. Totally less experienced.
Less skilled - Were talking about danmaku patterns and yet again, frisk has shown better skill in dodging (im talking about dodging alone. Not speed before you strawman)
Less equipped - Doesnt have anything to do with dodging danmaku patterns.
And as I brought up. You are incorrect here to make that assumption. Just because he can dodge someone who is sub sonic fairly easily, doesn't make him automatically on the level of someone who's close to being twice as a fast in movement speed alone, with reactions much higher and attack speed much higher. 1.6 is not close to twice as fast. He doesnt have reactions much higher. Thats not how reactions work at all. He dodged far range projectiles which are faster than his movement. This is something a can easily do in real life.
Dodging close range 90mph attacks while sleeping with it being literally impossible to ever hit him without breaking the rules is a more impressive feat than normally dodging a 160mph attack from a dozen metre distance and that is a fact.
Wrong, cause these ranged attacks can be even faster than shovel himself. And by a notable amount. Having dozens of chaos spears bouncing around is not easy in the slightest to dodge for sans. He is gonna get tagged. Wether it be by them or shovel. If Shovel shot one, Sans could dodge it, but those things are summoned to bounce around several. Not just one.
Again. This is you not understanding how reactions work. Sans reacted to 90mph attacks close range with the impossibility of being hit which warrents his reactions as far higher as mentioned on his profile. A ranged attack twice the speed would be easier to dodge for the same reason that it would as easy to dodge a 60mph vehicle from a great distance as it would do dodge a human throwing a punch at you. The fact sans reactions scale logically far above attacks that are not far off shovels speed means that ranged attacks from shovel would be no problem to dodge.
Shovel knight while he has dealt with attacks faster than sanses, has dealt with nothing more than projectile attacks from a few ranged directions without ease. Saying this allows him to flawlessly counter a fairly slower, yet spawned close ranged and complex danmaku pattern with ease is ridiculous and you know it.
You seem to repeat this exact same argument several times over. Im not sure if you are deliberately going with the strategy of shotgunning via unnecesarrily long responses or just appealing to repetition, but its not going to work.
Oh yea. Not like he fought someone like say plague knight who filled the screen with attacks with his explosions and jars which explode, kept away from shovel a lot by teleportation and jumping away to dodge his attacks. Or the onslaught of attacks the black knight gave which left little room to dodge and little room to react. He has faced plenty to ready him for Sans. Ive looked at the fights and none of these are anywhere near as complex or hard to dodge as sans danmaku even if you slow most of the attacks down. At this point i feel almost feel like telling you to play both games and telling me which is harder to dodge. Because you are making a lot of false comparisons as to what they are dodging. The only valid argument you have is sans danmaku being slower than shovel kight which only helps him slightly.
And shovel can actually take a hit should Sans get lucky on one. Sans doesn't one shot Btw. Another point that is often overlooked. Sans would need to get several hits in to actually put shovel down. His soul hacks damage, but don't instantly one shot. So even if Sans did get an attack which is highly unlikely. It doesn't even mean the end for shovel. But it certainly means the end for Sans. Sans takes seconds to kill someone with good resistence (gameplay wise). Shovel knight would get completely soulscrewed if he either gets caught in a pattern, a gaster blaster, or gets hit a few times, all of which can easily happen.
Or he could. Ya know. Fill the area bouncing chaos Balls which would bounce all over the place at speeds faster than shovel himself. Or magic blasts. Again. Plenty of space to move and see coming. Good enough reactions to easily avoid them. Shovel cant do anything without getting close range.
Sans range is skeptical. I don't even know why he gets "at least several dozen meters." Regardless too it. Shovel has attacks that blast across the levels area. Places dozens of times his own size. However, Shovels attacks are still faster. Shovel wouldn't have much issue doing the dodging as he is skilled in it. The soul itself would be nearly a metre long. Both attacks would be similar in range.
To sum it up. Sans has shown good enough reactions to deal with all of shovel knights attacks except for certain close range ones. Shovel knight can only beat sans by getting close range and using an aoe attack or possibly a lucky shovel swipe.
Shovel knights reactions (and experience if you wanna go there) are enough to not be overwhelmed by sanses danmaku, though still have some difficulty getting past it.
If you want to argue that there is a better chance of shovel knight getting close to sans and using a good enough attack than getting soulhaxed beforehand then go for it. There is no need to immediately enter with a lengthy comment, exaggerating shovels showings and trying to paint it out as a bordering on stomp in his favour.
