Sans vs Shovel Knight

So I just found that sans got slapped by shovel knight in a rewind rumble video. But now that i look at their profiles, it actually seems like they made a fair fight for once. So lets test how accurate this video is (besides scaling shovel knight to cannon kratos).

Standard battle assumptions

Shovel knight has access to all their equipment

Speed is not equal

Can finally dodge properly: 2

Shovel hax: 6

Inconclusive:

Oh no

So uh. Sk's profile seems to be missing stuff oof

Rewind rumble lmao

Wait why am I laughing I love these characters

So... Whats missing from shovel knights profile? Anything that woud drastically change the outcome?

I know Transmutation makes no sense, the Alchemy Coin kills enemies and it just makes them drop more gold.

Not sure if thats useful here since shovel knight can one shot regardless.

With no Soul resistance, Sans just teleports and spams bones. He's more than capable since a lot of Shovel Knight's arsenal is ranged. Intangibility won't help and self-healing won't either if your soul is being repeatedly drained dry. Shovel is very reliant on his magic supply, but the fight can be over in mere seconds since he has little to no reliable answer to intangible spam.

Sans takes this

Can sans undertale avoid the war horn somehow?

War horn barely has any reach. He's better off with the Flare Wand and Chaos Sphere.

Well, shovel knights speed is 146mph while sans danmaku is over 90mph since they should scale way above undynes spears. So sans danmaku shouldnt be completely overwhelming for shovel knight to handle. Can shovel knight make use of his intangibility?

No if snoos undertook can hurt souls then and intangible boy isn't an problem

Suppose that depends on the intangibility. Intangibility can be countered by attacking the soul right?

Yes.

If it's in character, San doesn't do that. Sans almost didn't even utilize teleporting combat wise until beat the end. He rarely ever used teleportation in combat. It was more an out of combat thing. And he isn't gonna Bone spam to the point where Shovel couldn't handle it. He isn't bloodlusted or anything.

Anyways, Shovel deals with having to react on a whim. Several stages drop random attacks or enemies out of nowhere, as well, has the skill, speed, and range to take out Sans. Sure, shovels range may require Magic, but he doesn't need to use a lot. He already is Faster, by a decent amount. And remember, he doesn't just react to canon balls. He straight up runs faster than them. So, Getting up close shouldn't be an issue. He reacts and can fight with people on the level of his speed. Dodging attacks from someone He is 1.6 times faster than should be pretty easy. Getting close won't be an issue. Especially if Shovel goes intangible himself. Which does counter sans attack as not even spirits can hurt Shovel like that. So he becomes untouchable even to things that are untouchable. If Shovel gets fairly close to sans, one horn blast is all it takes. He doesn't need to be THAT close to him. And if he needs to, he can snipe sans too. Cause his range should be much longer with things like his staff. And his Elixir also GG sans with the immorality for 10 seconds (which also is immune to intangible things)

Shovel via skill, speed, experience, range, strength, and hacks

Probably more around 1.5 times faster but yeah. Though im not sure if anything you mentioned means he can easily deal with danmaku as oppose to just having good reactions. While he could deal with sans danmaku, it wouldnt be an easy task to do so.

Also being intangible to something else that is non corporeal doesnt grant you resistance to soul hax. Especially when said ghosts dont have non physical interaction or soulhax. Also invulnerability doesnt counter soulhax either.

If shovel knight gets close then his best hope in hitting sans is likely a decent area of effect attack.

The first part is true. Though remember that sans can also use gravity to his advantage and wall slamming is also capable of damaging the opponents soul.

I mean, in character he's lazy and I doubt Sans would fight, so we just kind of assume he would. Otherwise a lot of Sans matches would've gone way differently... Of course Shovel Knight has every advantage, that's why Sans' unpredictability helps him. He isn't gonna just stand there when Shovel Knight gets close.

Sba just means in character and willing to kill. So both would be serious (unless they absolutely never fight seriously in character), but not bloodlusted.

Is that a vote for sans?

I'm the guy who already voted Sans

Also at least dozens of meters, higher with G. Blasters > melee range, tens of meters w/ projectiles

And I'm not sure if Sans' fight counts as in-character, but I do know that Shovel Knight's battle style isn't Danmaku so Sans still has a good shot

Yes. Willing to kill. But in character. Aka. Sans is not gonna just teleport spam bones as he doesn't do that in character. Not saying he won't be serious. Just saying he doesn't utilize that in character. And even if, Shovel Knight deals with teleporters who try and keep away. Plague knight and Specter knight both have teleportation. Plague knight who uses it as a form of dodging as well. Specter a little less. But none the less, a teleporter.

Anyways. The speed difference is actually 1.622. Not 1.5. I did the quick math on it before.

The game isn't a Danamaku game yes. But he still has had to react quickly to several projectiles or enemies. And shovel knight both reacts and physically is 1.6 times faster than Sans. Gravity Manipulation wouldn't be too knew to shovel in a sort of sense due to how water physics worked in shovel knight. It changed how high he jumped and slowly moved down. Aka. Like sans gravity Manipulation. He even had to deal with dodging spikes and enemies while wind was blow hard enough to force him to float in the air, or slam him into the floor suddenly, or send him flying left or right. So not even Gravity Manipulation would catch Shovek off guard cause he has felt with sudden changes in gravities effect, and they are very similar, and often the same as Sans effect. Really, shovel just has to be a few feet close to sans and then the horn would tag sans. It covers a fairly good distance around him close range wise. And nothing stops shovel from an onslaught of magic blasts. Sure he has a limit on magic, but he carries elixirs which restart his magic. And he has at his peak, 150 magic, and blasts only cost 4. So he can fire a lot of shots. Or Chaos spear which bounces all over the place. He fires a few of those, and sans is gonna have a real hard time dodging those and keeping track of someone faster than him. And remember. Shovels Orbs move notably faster than shovel himself as well. As does his flare and iirc. Meaning Sans is dealing with an opponent 1.6 times faster and several attacks even faster than that. Plus shovels experience on rapid attacks, experience having to react on the fly, and experience dealing with much faster opponents. And the. Things like the Propeller Dagger which makes him move even faster and can be used as an attack also worsen Sans case.

Sans is not good against people faster than him. And he certainly isn't gonna do hold against someone who is fully capable of reacting sod dodging his attacks due to the speed and experience they have. Plus the fact they can fill the area easily with much faster projectiles that will bounce around the place making almost nowhere safe. And sans lack of actually using teleportation, plus Shovel experience dealing with teleporters in the first place. Shovelry still takes this. He has too many good distance options, better range, better experience, better speed, and can certainly get close thanks to the speed difference.

Are these bible chapters seriously necessary?

Except these people who try to keep away dont have spatial manip, gravity manip and massively higher reactions from what i am aware of

The speed difference is assuming sans exactly 90mph even though he is technically much faster.

And shovel knight both reacts and physically is 1.6 times faster than Sans Shovel knight is not above sans reactions at all. Sans is capable of dodging someone relative to his attack speed to the point where the cannot land a single hit on him even when they rewind time and know exactly what he is going to do (without breaking the rules of the game), even after falling asleep. On top of easily dodging several energy attacks at once from an empty gun.

"The game isn't a Danamaku game yes. But he still has had to react quickly to several projectiles or enemies" And again, reacting to projectiles does not grant you the ability to easily react to a danmaku pattern. You are talking about the difference between a few projectiles heading your direction and this

Gravity Manipulation wouldn't be too knew to shovel in a sort of sense due to how water physics worked in shovel knight. It changed how high he jumped and slowly moved down. Aka. Like sans gravity Manipulation. Are you seriously comparing being lighter and slower when in water to a guy literally changing the direction gravity every split second and even slamming their soul into a wall?

He even had to deal with dodging spikes and enemies while wind was blow hard enough to force him to float in the air, or slam him into the floor suddenly, or send him flying left or right. So not even Gravity Manipulation would catch Shovek off guard cause he has felt with sudden changes in gravities effect, and they are very similar, and often the same as Sans effect. He dodged some projectiles and obstacles while wind briefly took him into the air or blew him in a certain direction. That is in no way comparable to being instantly thrown in random corners of the room randomly while immediately having to dodge soulhaxy bones from the ground you just hit (with the possibility of being soulhaxed anyway via wall slam) and then being attacked with waves of danmaku patterns and gaster blasters.

I should also mention that a character who has easily dealt with danmaku similar to what sk has dealt with and has to reload several times to do anything.

And nothing stops shovel from an onslaught of magic blasts. Sure he has a limit on magic, but he carries elixirs which restart his magic. And he has at his peak, 150 magic, and blasts only cost 4. So he can fire a lot of shots. Or Chaos spear which bounces all over the place. He fires a few of those, and sans is gonna have a real hard time dodging those and keeping track of someone faster than him. And remember. Shovels Orbs move notably faster than shovel himself as well. As does his flare and iirc. Meaning Sans is dealing with an opponent 1.6 times faster and several attacks even faster than that. Plus shovels experience on rapid attacks, experience having to react on the fly, and experience dealing with much faster opponents. And the. Things like the Propeller Dagger which makes him move even faster and can be used as an attack also worsen Sans case. Again, shovel knight is not faster than sans reactions at all. Only his danmaku by an okay margin. Ranged projectile attacks are one of the easiest things for sans to dodge here. Also most of what you list is something sans could easily replicate. Sans both has better ways to deal with danmaku like attacks than shovel knight, better reactions and has better danmaku to begin with. Youre arguing the complete opposite in the sense that sans is going to have trouble with shovel knights attacks while shovel knight will be able to deal with sans danmaku attacks with ease. The reality is that shovel knight has never dealt with anything like sans outside of a obstacles with extremely vague similarities while sans has dealt with attacks easily on the level of shovel knights and has better reactions to compensate. Shovel knight using a strategy like this would just make his situation worse since sans has plenty of space to move and dodge while sk has next to none.

The only good chance shovel knight has here is if he makes it past sans' damaku without being hit (which he only has a chance at doing due to being somewhat faster than sans danmaku), gets close enough and then goes for the horn (all of this he would need to pick as his leading strategy). Sans really doesnt need his teleportation much at all here.

Also sans literally has better range in his own profile and can just as easily attack shovel knight from a distance with much more complex patterns (and also has gaster blasters which are even greater range than his projectiles and are massively faster than sans' bones to the point where shovel knight would needs to aim dodge those).

Shovel knight is not above sans reactions at all. Sans is capable of dodging someone relative to his attack speed to the point where the cannot land a single hit on him even when they rewind time and know exactly what he is going to do (without breaking the rules of the game), even after falling asleep.

This is flat out wrong. Shovel knight is 100 percent faster than Sans reaction. Sans has never reacted to anyone or anything as fast as Shovel. The fastest person Sans has reacted too Frisk who's inside battles only reached 51.024517 MPH. not sure where 90 MPH comes up from. But. This is the speed calc for frisk. Who hits Superhuman. Sans is sub sonic by being notably faster. And even if Frisk was 90 MPH. That's just flat out wrong to say Shovel isn't faster than Sans. Shovel is casually able to Run faster than cannon balls, and can fight people who can react to his attacks which move even faster. Shovel is definitely faster. And saying "oh but sans can dodge frisk easily" doesn't change the fact Shovel is Beyond Frisks speed by a long shot. His attacks and he moves faster. So no. You are incorrect. Shovel is faster than Sans reaction

On top of easily dodging several energy attacks at once from an empty gun.

Ok so. Shovel can dodge and and down right out run magic attacks. That has no literal effect if we don't know the speed. And it was agreed that the Empty gun isn't scalable to a real guns speed. Plus he doesn't even dodge a danamaku is them. He side steps out of the one area frisk was shooting at. So he only "dodged several by stepping out of the one area Frisk was shooting. Not even that impressive of a feat since that gun has no real viable feats that make it any faster than anything else in undertale.

Are you seriously comparing being lighter and slower when in water to a guy literally changing the direction gravity every split second and even slamming their soul into a wall?

I just love how you blackened this part alone; and not the other part where I specifically talk about him facing the sudden being slammed up, down, or a different direction. Which totally negates this point.

He dodged some projectiles and obstacles while wind briefly took him into the air or blew him in a certain direction.

Briefly. You mean like Sans ability to manipulation your gravity suddenly in one direction? Cause that's what he does. He doesn't just forcibly hold you to the ground. He flings you in direction, and then usefully does an attack afterwards. So yea. A sudden change in gravity. Just like the winds he faced. Which suddenly changed how his gravity would work. Sudden gravity change and needing to dodge attacks. Both things he does in the same level. And being faster, he most certainly would pull it off. He literally in game gets blown in the direction of spikes (which are instant death) and can dodge em. So Sans bones won't be any more an issue.

I should also mention that a character who has easily dealt with danmaku similar to what sk has dealt with and has to reload several times to do anything.

And I should mention. That's someone who was notably slower, less experienced, less skilled, and less equipped. Where shovel knight is Better equipped, far more experienced, far more skilled, and notably Faster, which much faster attacks


Again, shovel knight is not faster than sans reactions at all. Only his danmaku by an okay margin.

And as I brought up. You are incorrect here to make that assumption. Just because he can dodge someone who is sub sonic fairly easily, doesn't make him automatically on the level of someone who's close to being twice as a fast in movement speed alone, with reactions much higher and attack speed much higher.


Ranged projectile attacks are one of the easiest things for sans to dodge here

Wrong, cause these ranged attacks can be even faster than shovel himself. And by a notable amount. Having dozens of chaos spears bouncing around is not easy in the slightest to dodge for sans. He is gonna get tagged. Wether it be by them or shovel. If Shovel shot one, Sans could dodge it, but those things are summoned to bounce around several. Not just one.

Sans both has better ways to deal with danmaku like attacks than shovel knight, better reactions and has better danmaku to begin with.

I'm sorry, better Reaction. His reaction isn't even on par with shovel knight. Shovel reacts to things that move faster than Himself by a notable amount, and fights several People who can dodge these kinds of attacks at once. Sans does not have better reaction. No. Not to the slightest. Shovel knight has the better attacks in range anyway. He has the chaos balls which don't just hit once, they hit several times while bouncing around the area. And he can summon dozens upon dozens.

Youre arguing the complete opposite in the sense that sans is going to have trouble with shovel knights attacks while shovel knight will be able to deal with sans danmaku attacks with ease.

Not true. Surprisingly, the person who moves faster, and reacts to faster things, is not gonna have nearly as much trouble reacting to the attacks of someone who is slower and reacts slower. Your reasoning for Sans being faster just doesn't work to the slightest. Sure, he is notably faster than frisk. But that does not automatically make him faster than Shovel.


The reality is that shovel knight has never dealt with anything like sans outside of a obstacles with extremely vague similarities while sans has dealt with attacks easily on the level of shovel knights and has better reactions to compensate.

Oh yea. Not like he fought someone like say plague knight who filled the screen with attacks with his explosions and jars which explode, kept away from shovel a lot by teleportation and jumping away to dodge his attacks. Or the onslaught of attacks the black knight gave which left little room to dodge and little room to react. He has faced plenty to ready him for Sans.


Shovel knight using a strategy like this would just make his situation worse since sans has plenty of space to move and dodge while sk has next to none.

Yea no. Shovel being the faster one with faster attack and Faster reaction. He can dodge sans attacks. If they both sent an on slaughter of attacks at each other. Shovel is the faster one and will dodge them better than Sans could. And shovel can actually take a hit should Sans get lucky on one. Sans doesn't one shot Btw. Another point that is often overlooked. Sans would need to get several hits in to actually put shovel down. His soul hacks damage, but don't instantly one shot. So even if Sans did get an attack which is highly unlikely. It doesn't even mean the end for shovel. But it certainly means the end for Sans.


The only good chance shovel knight has here is if he makes it past sans' damaku without being hit (which he only has a chance at doing due to being somewhat faster than sans danmaku), gets close enough and then goes for the horn (all of this he would need to pick as his leading strategy). Sans really doesnt need his teleportation much at all here.

Or he could. Ya know. Fill the area bouncing chaos Balls which would bounce all over the place at speeds faster than shovel himself. Or magic blasts.


Also sans literally has better range in his own profile and can just as easily attack shovel knight from a distance with much more complex patterns (and also has gaster blasters which are even greater range than his projectiles and are massively faster than sans' bones to the point where shovel knight would needs to aim dodge those).

Sans range is skeptical. I don't even know why he gets "at least several dozen meters." Regardless too it. Shovel has attacks that blast across the levels area. Places several times his own size. However, Shovels attacks are still faster. Shovel wouldn't have much issue doing the dodging as he is skilled in it.

Shovel Knight FRA

Shovel knight is faster than sans reactions I just told you that sans attacks are faster than undynes spears which is listed that speed in the link you gave and basically any monster in the games attacks. Frisk is able to keep up with them and has massively higher determination than he did in that calc which is why they have the rating. Sans reacting to frisk to the point where it is literally impossible to hit him no matter the distance, even when they know exactly what he is going to do next, and even while he is sleeping which easily puts his reactions beyond than 1.6 times his attack speed. Its not even something a peaked human could do to a normal human. Your argument of shovel being faster is completely useless here and at most gives him a slightly better chance at hitting sans than frisk.

Ok so. Shovel can dodge and and down right out run magic attacks. That has no literal effect if we don't know the speed. And it was agreed that the Empty gun isn't scalable to a real guns speed. Plus he doesn't even dodge a danamaku is them. He side steps out of the one area frisk was shooting at. So he only "dodged several by stepping out of the one area Frisk was shooting. Not even that impressive of a feat since that gun has no real viable feats that make it any faster than anything else in undertale.

This is a strawman. I never said is scales to a real guns speed. My point is that sans has dealt with multiple ranged attacks being shot at him. Shovel knights danmaku is not even impressive at all and is something that can easily be countered by being good at dodging. Youre acting like five projectiles bouncing around the place is the equivilent to filling the entire room up to the point where there is little to no space to move.

I just love how you blackened this part alone; and not the other part where I specifically talk about him facing the sudden being slammed up, down, or a different direction. Which totally negates this point. I literally covered that immediately afterwards. Read peoples arguments before responding.

Briefly. You mean like Sans ability to manipulation your gravity suddenly in one direction? Cause that's what he does. He doesn't just forcibly hold you to the ground. He flings you in direction, and then usefully does an attack afterwards. So yea. A sudden change in gravity. Strawman x3. I never said sans forces you to the ground. He throws you around the room in every single direction non stop. Comparing that to being blown in one direction and then another by some wind is a blatant false comparison

Shovel knight gravity dodging argument

Okay so im looking at the scene in question and it looks like you are comparing this to this. This is a blatent false comparison.

Shovel knight is not dodging anything nearly as complex as what sans can perform. This is entirely shovel knight moving to the right position so he can manoeuvre around the stagnant obstacles while using the wind to his advantage. The wind moves in a consistent pattern, gives him plenty of time to plan his next position and at he most dodges a few onscreen projectiles at a time in the entire level.

This is in no way comparable to being slammed into multiple different walls and having bones immediately rise from said walls with no way of knowing. You need to learn the difference between avoiding obstacles, dodging projectiles, and avoiding complex danmaku patterns. And again, sans can soul hax anyway if he wall slams hard enough. Nothing shovel knight has avoided is comparable to sanses danmaku no matter how much you exaggerate the context.

And I should mention. That's someone who was notably slower, less experienced, less skilled, and less equipped. Where shovel knight is Better equipped, far more experienced, far more skilled, and notably Faster, which much faster attacks

Noteably slower - Has nothing to do with sans giving trouble to someone who has dodged more complex danmaku patterns on their own level. And on top of that isnt massively slower than shovel knight during genocide. Shovel knight is only noticeably faster than sans danmaku but has no experience dodging danmaku on said level. Frisk is similar speed to the damnaku and despite better experience, has trouble dodging it. Shovel knight has little means of dodging sans damnaku flawlessly.

Less experienced - Has fought every monster in the underground multiple times, killed every one of them and has repeatedly dealt with far more complex patterns than anything shovel knight has faced. Totally less experienced.

Less skilled - Were talking about danmaku patterns and yet again, frisk has shown better skill in dodging (im talking about dodging alone. Not speed before you strawman)

Less equipped - Doesnt have anything to do with dodging danmaku patterns.

And as I brought up. You are incorrect here to make that assumption. Just because he can dodge someone who is sub sonic fairly easily, doesn't make him automatically on the level of someone who's close to being twice as a fast in movement speed alone, with reactions much higher and attack speed much higher. 1.6 is not close to twice as fast. He doesnt have reactions much higher. Thats not how reactions work at all. He dodged far range projectiles which are faster than his movement. This is something a can easily do in real life.

Dodging close range 90mph attacks while sleeping with it being literally impossible to ever hit him without breaking the rules is a more impressive feat than normally dodging a 160mph attack from a dozen metre distance and that is a fact.

Wrong, cause these ranged attacks can be even faster than shovel himself. And by a notable amount. Having dozens of chaos spears bouncing around is not easy in the slightest to dodge for sans. He is gonna get tagged. Wether it be by them or shovel. If Shovel shot one, Sans could dodge it, but those things are summoned to bounce around several. Not just one.

Again. This is you not understanding how reactions work. Sans reacted to 90mph attacks close range with the impossibility of being hit which warrents his reactions as far higher as mentioned on his profile. A ranged attack twice the speed would be easier to dodge for the same reason that it would as easy to dodge a 60mph vehicle from a great distance as it would do dodge a human throwing a punch at you. The fact sans reactions scale logically far above attacks that are not far off shovels speed means that ranged attacks from shovel would be no problem to dodge.

Shovel knight while he has dealt with attacks faster than sanses, has dealt with nothing more than projectile attacks from a few ranged directions without ease. Saying this allows him to flawlessly counter a fairly slower, yet spawned close ranged and complex danmaku pattern with ease is ridiculous and you know it.

You seem to repeat this exact same argument several times over. Im not sure if you are deliberately going with the strategy of shotgunning via unnecesarrily long responses or just appealing to repetition, but its not going to work.

Oh yea. Not like he fought someone like say plague knight who filled the screen with attacks with his explosions and jars which explode, kept away from shovel a lot by teleportation and jumping away to dodge his attacks. Or the onslaught of attacks the black knight gave which left little room to dodge and little room to react. He has faced plenty to ready him for Sans. Ive looked at the fights and none of these are anywhere near as complex or hard to dodge as sans danmaku even if you slow most of the attacks down. At this point i feel almost feel like telling you to play both games and telling me which is harder to dodge. Because you are making a lot of false comparisons as to what they are dodging. The only valid argument you have is sans danmaku being slower than shovel kight which only helps him slightly.

And shovel can actually take a hit should Sans get lucky on one. Sans doesn't one shot Btw. Another point that is often overlooked. Sans would need to get several hits in to actually put shovel down. His soul hacks damage, but don't instantly one shot. So even if Sans did get an attack which is highly unlikely. It doesn't even mean the end for shovel. But it certainly means the end for Sans. Sans takes seconds to kill someone with good resistence (gameplay wise). Shovel knight would get completely soulscrewed if he either gets caught in a pattern, a gaster blaster, or gets hit a few times, all of which can easily happen.

Or he could. Ya know. Fill the area bouncing chaos Balls which would bounce all over the place at speeds faster than shovel himself. Or magic blasts. Again. Plenty of space to move and see coming. Good enough reactions to easily avoid them. Shovel cant do anything without getting close range.

Sans range is skeptical. I don't even know why he gets "at least several dozen meters." Regardless too it. Shovel has attacks that blast across the levels area. Places dozens of times his own size. However, Shovels attacks are still faster. Shovel wouldn't have much issue doing the dodging as he is skilled in it. The soul itself would be nearly a metre long. Both attacks would be similar in range.

To sum it up. Sans has shown good enough reactions to deal with all of shovel knights attacks except for certain close range ones. Shovel knight can only beat sans by getting close range and using an aoe attack or possibly a lucky shovel swipe.

Shovel knights reactions (and experience if you wanna go there) are enough to not be overwhelmed by sanses danmaku, though still have some difficulty getting past it.

If you want to argue that there is a better chance of shovel knight getting close to sans and using a good enough attack than getting soulhaxed beforehand then go for it. There is no need to immediately enter with a lengthy comment, exaggerating shovels showings and trying to paint it out as a bordering on stomp in his favour.

Sans FRA

Shovel Knight FRA

As a matter of fact, for some added perspective. Go watch the sans fight at 0.75 speed. That is what shovel knight would have to deal with based on his reaction gap from sans' attack. Only shovel knight would be seeing everything from the souls perspective rather than having a third person view.

Even at that speed, you would need to be incredibly good at dodging complex danmaku patterns in order to fully avoid those attacks, especially without any prior knowledge on what the attacks will be or where they will come from. Shovel knights reactions only help him slightly here. Shovel knight dodging projectiles at the speed he percieves is nowhere near as impressive as dodging those attacks even at 0.75 speed. Im starting to think people just dont get how speed, reactions or danmaku works.

And im not sure if shovel knight will always dodge in character and wont try to outright go straight for sans. Which would be a major problem for sk if he does.

Shovel Knight for reasons above.

Just to confirm. Saying fra for an argument that is being countered is valid right?

Shovel Knight FRA

Shovel Knight FRA

Read this post said:

Just to confirm. Saying fra for an argument that is being countered is valid right?

Click to expand...

I dunno if that's true if thevalidity of it is being questioned.

Ill hold the votes for now until butter guy and i come to a better agreement on the win conditions. Just so there is an actual conclusion and discussion.

I am neutral on who wins btw. My only point is that sans can react to shovels attacks with likely mid difficulty (besides the horn up close) and shovel doesnt clear sans' danmaku without some difficulty.

Shovel Knight FrA

I'll have respond to the comment later tomorrow. To exhausted currently, and have work first half of tomorrow.

Take your time. It is best not to rush or get worked up over a simple vs debate anyway.

(Also i may respond day after that if im not to tired since i may dedicate tomorrow to finishing some verse wide undertale revisions).

Well. I totally forgot this debate. Oof. But looks like it's over. I still stand by my reasons regardless.

Shovel Knight FRA

I mean, your reasonings are kinda debunked aren't they? Both have higher reactions than the opponents attack. Sans win condition is hitting with complex damnaku patterns (which require more than basic dodging sometimes) and shovel knights is getting past them without getting hit by anything more than a couple individual bone attacks and getting up close. What is your current reason for shovel knight doing so?