Sans vs Shovel Knight

[Luigi_The_Thunder_Master]

I Guess Shovel FRA

 

[Read_this_post]

The current reasoning for shovel knight is completely false. It gives shovel knight higher reactions than his own speed and elevates his speed higher than what it is for dodging an attack faster than him but from a long distance. The same logic would give frisk 90mph reactions with mid determination alone. And assumes shovel knight to have dodged damnaku as complex sanses which is blatantly false and out of context.

...Also what do you mean by "I guess"? You did read the reasoning properly right?

 

[Jackythejack]

Butters already requested it to be added to their profiles. I don't know if he's gonna respond again.

He sorta forgot the debate until grave was over so he could add it.

 

[Buttersamuri]

My reasons aren't false. His attacks are able to move faster than he is, and he fights bosses who can react to his attacks. His speed on Foot is sub sonic because he can outrun canon balls. But most all his attacks move faster than the canon balls. As does other bosses. Just by being able to fight them proves he faster faster attack and reaction. Not much much faster. Just a notable amount. And I told you my reasons. And you are also flat out wrong about that being Shovels only win. He has range attacks too. He is faster, so are his attacks, more skilled, more experienced, and several range attacks too. Plus he can take a few hits before he would die as Sans soul hacks don't actually one shot the soul. So Shovel has the capability of taking him from range or getting close. Magic wand or chaos Spears bouncing around, or using the horn within Mid distance. Plus his experience with people who try and stay away and use range. Plus, sans being flat out wrong. He doesn't have nearly as long as dozen of meters. I say yes, with his skills, range, experience, and still able to take a few hits. Shovel still wins. Those reasons stand. You can disagree and think it goes a different way. But my reasons make my vote valid. That's how I believe the fight goes.

 

[Read_this_post]

My reasons aren't false. His attacks are able to move faster than he is, and he fights bosses who can react to his attacks. Just by being able to fight them proves he faster attack and reaction. That does not warrant higher combat or reactions unless they can outright dodging a much faster attack from a close distance. This is like giving a normal humans beyond human reactions because their punches move much faster than their own running speed.

He has range attacks too. He is faster, so are his attacks, more skilled, more experienced, and several range attacks too "His attacks are more skilled and experienced"... It seems like you are overusing that sentence even when it makes no sense. They are basic ranged projectiles with some of them being able to move around differently or bounce. Ive proven sans has more than enough reactions to dodge ranged projectiles even like that. He can dodge attacks of only slightly slower speed with the literal impossibility of being hit without breaking the rules. Ranged attacking would only make things easier for sans and if anything distract shovel knight more

For better perspective. If we assumed shovel knight to be normal human in running speed. The attacks you see throughout the entire game from both him and stages could easily be countered the same way he and the bosses do if they all had normal human reactions. As a result, they are logically percievable with reactions comparable to shovels own speed. Unless you have something to disprove it (which i think would be calc stacking at that point)

And I gave perspective on how he would view sans attacks and it makes little difference. They are still complex attacks that require more than skill in dodging a dozen on screen projectiles and basic stage maneouvering. I would equalise speed if you truly believe shovel is faster than sans in every category (which sounds like a stomp). But i cant even do that now since you added it.

Plus he can take a few hits before he would die as Sans soul hacks don't actually one shot the soul. So Shovel has the capability of taking him from range or getting close. Nulled again by the fact that getting caught up in a complex danmaku attack or gaster blaster would result in more than a few hits to die. People who stay and range attack dont have danmaku on sans level that can kill in a few hits.

 

[Buttersamuri]

And they can. These attacks does start blitzing the bosses. Heck. One of specters attacks is just shooting across the map to the nearest Enemy and slashing at a much faster speed than normal. It does scale to their reactions. Canon ball fire is notable slower than shovel knight. He casually outpaces it. Specters slash attack specifically even has to be used to climb up a part of the ship by blitz dashing several canon balls. And, we even see him use this specific attack in his fight with shovel. So it does scale. So yea. Their reactions scale.

He dodged a series of one slash attacks. Not an utter onslaught of magic. Yes, sans could dodge attacks. But realistically. If he fights shovel. He is gonna have to be dodging a lot. And would both wear himself out faster, have to concentrate more on dodging, and still can easily get hit by things like the chaos spear which bounces around the screen, and the flare wand which he can shoot dozens of blasts. Dodging projectiles is something Shovel had to do a lot. In the enchantress fight, he had to dodge attacks coming from directions even including below him, where there was ground. Aka. He didn't even have a way of knowing when or where it was coming from.


Except With shovels skills and experience, plus superior speed, he should be more than capable of dodging through Sans sort of onslaught. It would keep shovel on his toes, and while yes he could get hit. He still could survive. Sans can't get hit else he dies. And shovel is still faster with faster attacks. So incorrect. It is not nulled. It's different perspective that you have. And I don't agree with. I stand by shovel winning.

 

[Read_this_post]

How can their reactions scale to an attack that blitzes them? Im kinda lost on that part.

One slash attacks dont change anything when they cant even hit you even if they reverse time several times. Slightly faster but much further attacks will be just as easy to react to. Wearing down is really not going to help against someone who can literally dodge after falling asleep.

Again, youre spamming experience when nothing shovel has dodged is close to being a danmaku attack which requires both dodging and planning (made near impossible due to the attacks being fired instantly which is why so much loading is often required). And you straight up ignored the point that getting hit by danmaku would likely result in being caught up and being hit several times. Its not my perspective at all. Most of your reasoning is completely misinterpreted. None of what you listed is comparable to sans damnaku. Play both games, and tell me what is harder to dodge. Because sans is more difficult by a longshot.

Also you do realise you are arguing for shovel stomping sans right? If you want i can equalise speed, make this easier and try again. Unless or course a new thread is required.

 

[Jackythejack]

I mean if you're trying again this needs to be removed from both profiles

 

[Buttersamuri]

It doesn't blitz them. It can blitz canon balls. The things they are casually faster than. And it can blitz fodder characters. But the bosses and travels are the ones who can react.

It does though. Cause this slash was always the same. Same general area and relatively predictable. It's not like it was several slashes in different areas. They always attacked the same way. And while I don't deny. Sans is definitely faster. He did react when his eyes were closed. So he definitely is faster. It's just the other parts were relatively predictable

I don't think he utterly stomps sans. I think the win is simply straight forward. Sans Could win. It's just not likely imo. Shovels too ready and experienced for Sans. Doesn't qualify for a Stomp. And It would require a new thread all together. But I'm not sure what's the ruling on rematches and such. Since it's on their pages already. I would have to ask Staff about that.

 

[Read_this_post]

If that is truly the case then you should probably make a revision because that isnt listed on their profiles. As long as its not calc stacking or anything (which would refute your point)

That would give sans enough do deal with range attacks but alright

If speed equal would make this a more conclusive debate then I suppose i will redo it. Do the matchups have to be removed first or after?

 

[Buttersamuri]

It shouldn't be calc stacking. It's just his reactions would be higher than movement. Typically most game characters. Like snakes MHS reactions but can run at supersonic speeds. Or if I ran at Subsonic speeds, but can dodge supersonic attacks.

Shovels still faster here. And reacted to much faster.

I don't know the rules on that. Should ask staff. I'm not sure how it works in a rematch sense. I've never seen people do rematches unless a character gets a buff or debuff. I would hold up on it for a bit though. I am in the middle of a calc to give a solid level where his range should hit. As Dozens Of meters has no reasoning not supporting feats

 

[Read_this_post]

You should probably make that revision then. You dont really have to calc the range. Its tens of metres either way. Ill wait for a bit then. I have the entire verse to revise.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Not a recalc. There's another example of range that Undyne gives off. When she was throwing her Spears at Frisk. She could summon them from a distance away and fling them. Looks like it's supporting to getting past 10 Meters. It may support Tens Of meters, just get a more exact area.

 

[Read_this_post]

I mean. It is really easier to rename all of them to tens of meters. But if you have the time on your hands then I suppose thats up to you.

 

[Huzy123]

Shovel Knight beat Kratos and it was confirmed canon by the director of the GoW

 

[Read_this_post]

Then make a revision. Dont bring it up on a necro vs thread.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Shovel Knight beat Kratos and it was confirmed canon by the director of the GoW

We don't accept crossover feats like that.

 

[Huzy123]

We don't accept crossover feats like that.

Oh okay